Heresy 190

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

They seek her here, they seek her there.

LOL! Not any more.  The silent sisterhood would be a good place to lay low; watch, learn and listen.  Especially if you can't verbally speak the language.

[ravenous reader]

On 8/13/2016 at 1:18 PM, LynnS said:

Seems to me that Coldhands communicates mind to mind since his mouth is covered and he doesn't appear to be breathing

@Wizz-The-Smith recently noted Bran's ability to make the trees rustle without the aid of wind, implying therefore that Bran can speak both with breath (via wind) and, more mysteriously, without using breath (windless):  

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A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once.

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

@Black Crow:  I would be interested in reading your reflections on Crows.  Keep me posted!  One key question I have, which I hope you'll address, is whether GRRM uses crows and ravens synonymously, or whether they are clear-cut distinctive entities symbolically.  Such an analysis might clear up a few things you've been discussing recently on this thread, specifically whether crows might be opposed to trees, for which I don't think there's enough definitive evidence quite yet.  I disagree that the matter is closed and unambiguous.  The following suggestive statement for example is written with the express purpose of disseminating such ambiguity:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran I

Are there many three-eyed crows, or only one? How do we find him?"

"Perhaps he will find us."

We are meant to question if there could be more than one type of three-eyed crow.  Above, you mentioned that Bloodraven 'unwittingly' appeared to Bran in the coma dream as a crow.   I'm not sure I would say Bloodraven's avatar is 'unwitting.'  There's enough evidence to suggest that he can choose from and effectively control a multitude of avatars, his favorites being crows, ravens, fogs/mists, wolves, winds and of course weirwood trees.  On a meta-level, GRRM is the one deliberately choosing the avatar in question, in order to provide a symbolic clue as to Bloodraven's identity for the reader, so from that perspective it's not unwitting either!  In addition to 'Raventree Hall,' there's also Bloodraven's association with his signature fighting force 'the Raven's Teeth,' and the fact that he was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, hence making him 'Lord of the Crows.'  It's possible he might match the avatar to the person he intends to manipulate, so armed with the knowledge of Bran's fondness for birds it would make sense that he'd appear in avian form so that Bran would be more receptive to the message.  Finally, the clue is in the name, 'Brynden' and 'Brandon' being analogs of each other both meaning 'raven.'  Granted, much of this argument hinges on my assumption, which admittedly may be an oversimplification, that crows and ravens are used for Bloodraven interchangeably, given that he has been associated with both species.

On 8/11/2016 at 11:15 PM, aDanceWithFlagons said:

On 8/8/2016 at 4:50 PM, Tucu said:

"On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords."

The last paragraph there shows that the tree and the weirwood are in unison. The crow appears from the weirwood itself. Not as an outside source. The trees and the birds belong together. 

I agree that this viewpoint cannot be so readily dismissed.  I think of the tree and Bloodraven in one (they're literally intertwined as half man-half tree snaking through each other) as the conductor or military commander, from which his fighting force is unleashed like so many flying arrows which take flight from the tree. Given the point I highlighted above of Bloodraven's association with crows literally and figuratively, as well as his signature private guards, the elite archers called 'the Raven's Teeth,' the crow 'crying in a voice as sharp as swords' is not incompatible with Bloodraven.  Fittingly, an arrow is fashioned from wood and feather, unleashed from a wooden bow, so the combination of tree (weirwood) and bird (feather), the white and the black working together, is not incompatible with the description of how Bloodraven conducts his operations, 'with a white arrow and a black spell' (The Sworn Sword).

Moreover, the use of the word-choice 'flapping' is interesting in that it combines the leaves and birds in one.  GRRM often uses imagery comparing the leaves of trees to birds. For example, the ravens cover the bare branches of the tree at Raventree Hall as if the birds were its leaves, hence the name 'Raventree'. In addition, he adds 'hands' to the metaphor, by frequently comparing the leaves of the weirwood to 1000 (Bloodraven's code number) bloodstained red hands 'waving', which is similar to 'flapping.'  The hands, like the number 1000, are a clue to the presence of Bloodraven moving through his proxies:  Thus, we can say that both the leaves and the birds are in the hands, as they are the Hands, of the sorcerer, originally a famous Hand himself.  That said, I won't rule out the possibility of one of these 'Hands' going rogue or being a spy amongst the rest.

Another example:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon III

A blowing rain lashed at Jon's face as he spurred his horse across the swollen stream. Beside him, Lord Commander Mormont gave the hood of his cloak a tug, muttering curses on the weather. His raven sat on his shoulder, feathers ruffled, as soaked and grumpy as the Old Bear himself. A gust of wind sent wet leaves flapping round them like a flock of dead birds. The haunted forest, Jon thought ruefully. The drowned forest, more like it.

On 8/6/2016 at 4:56 AM, Black Crow said:

The skills are there but Bran is further along because he's crippled, so needs to compensate for that and is being forced [in the hothouse sense] to develop his skills faster and much further than the others*. Jon and Rickon on the other hand are being left to their wolves and in Jon's case at least developing his speciality as a fierce warrior.

*and I'm still of the opinion he was always intended to fall. Jaime Lannister's intervention may have been fortuitous but the crows would still have gotten him in the end.

The crippling, just as having red or green eyes, is a marker rather than a condition for being fey...I think the children explain that 'the chosen ones are not robust' and that they are not long for this world.  And, as you say, the crippling certainly inspires Bran to compensate for his disability.  However, the crippling is not the reason for his talent, but rather acts as a catalyst to perhaps accelerate the development of that pre-existing aptitude.  To give a 'real world' analogy, surely one could not argue that Stephen Hawking only started thinking about the grand mysteries of cosmic space-time as a consequence of his ALS (motor neuron disease).  We know this is false, because he was already in the thick of figuring out the kernel of these ideas while at Cambridge University, when he started falling ill.  In other words, his genius preceded his bodily decay.  The same can be said for Bran.  I think he is simply more talented than his siblings, as well as having for various reasons nurtured this talent earlier.  Just as in a family of musicians, there is always one who stands out. 

I agree he was always intended to fall.  If you read that passage carefully, Cersei was alerted to his presence at the window by a noise, but it's never specified who made the noise.  Perhaps Cersei was tipped off by one of the crows rather than Bran?  Didn't Old Nan say 'all crows are liars'?!

On 8/7/2016 at 10:01 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Since you brought up Blackwood of Raventree Hall, did you take notice of the ravens on the sigil? They are surrounding a leafless weirwood tree, and every raven is facing away from the tree as if they are guarding the tree. Are they guarding the tree in a protective manner, or are they keeping it prisoner?

What an intriguing idea!  Also, I've always found it strange why they're called 'Black-wood' when they're associated with a white tree!  Any ideas what that's about?  It could refer to the black ravens covering the branches like leaves.  Additionally, the 'black wood' got me thinking about 'shade of the evening' which is brewed from the black wood/bark of the ebony tree.  The warlocks of Qarth derive their power by virtue of this black tree and  imprisoning others in their death-trap 'House of the Undying.'  Is there any connection to Bloodraven?

On 8/8/2016 at 5:12 PM, Feather Crystal said:

There is the possibility that Euron is more than just a failed apprentice. He's an inversion of Bloodraven all the way around. He may not be restrained underground, but his reach is like tentacles and seems to have as much knowledge as Bloodraven does. In the new Forsaken chapter his eye under the patch is red, and he drinks blue liquid made from the black-barked tree from the House of the Undying.

Although I believe that Bloodraven has many avatars, so the crow and weirwood are not necessarily working for separate agencies, I agree with your recognition of Euron as an inverted Bloodraven.  Adding support to the Euron as crow theory, his moniker is 'The Crow's Eye.' 

On 8/8/2016 at 6:17 PM, LynnS said:

WoW - The Forsaken

- The night they moved him, he had seen the moon floating on a black wine sea with a leering face that reminded him of Euron.

- When he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden.
- He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible.
- When Euron came again, his hair was swept straight back from his brow, and his lips were so blue that they were almost black.

I think there is more than one entity using the crow as an intermediary to enter the mind.  I'm reminded of Tyrion's two headed dream; where one head is slaughtering everything in front of him while the other head weeps.  The occasion where he sees the moon in the sky reflected in a wine dark sea as though he is being watched by two entities who can use the moon's eye view from above and below or the opposing forces.

Great observation and use of your text @LynnS!  I think the quote you meant is this one, from which I can definitely get a Euron 'feel', the red sea moon shimmering red as if it's winking with every wave:  

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Finally he gave it up and made his way up top for a breath of night air. The Selaesori Qhoran had furled her big striped sail for the night, and her decks were all but deserted. One of the mates was on the sterncastle, and amidships Moqorro sat by his brazier, where a few small flames still danced amongst the embers.

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

"The sky is always red above Valyria, Hugor Hill."

You're onto something with the twin moon concept.  I had been wondering lately about the confusing and contradictory allegiances of the moon, in a brainstorming session with @Wizz-The-Smith for an essay we're planning on 'Bran's growing powers,' and your take on it helps me further. For example, sometimes the moon seems to be 'on the same side' as the weirwood (tree), whereas at other times it's opposed. For example, the Moon Door in the Eyrie is pure white weirwood without hint of duality, in contrast to the moon doors in the House of the Undying and the House of Black and White which are black and white, made of both ebony and weirwood, displaying a kind of 'ying-yang' duality in their aesthetic design.  I also noticed that the weirwood trees in the north sometimes try to thwart the moon, as if the moon is their enemy.  In the following example at the Night Fort where Bran and co. are sheltering, the weirwood tries to catch the moon which may be spying on them, and drown it in a well, which taken literally would be a drowned moon, evoking 'the Drowned God' and that krakenous eye lurking in the depths:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"We should sleep," Jojen said solemnly, after they were full. The fire was burning low. He stirred it with a stick. "Perhaps I'll have another green dream to show us the way."

Hodor was already curled up and snoring lightly. From time to time he thrashed beneath his cloak, and whimpered something that might have been "Hodor." Bran wriggled closer to the fire. The warmth felt good, and the soft crackling of flames soothed him, but sleep would not come. Outside the wind was sending armies of dead leaves marching across the courtyards to scratch faintly at the doors and windows. The sounds made him think of Old Nan's stories. He could almost hear the ghostly sentinels calling to each other atop the Wall and winding their ghostly warhorns. Pale moonlight slanted down through the hole in the dome, painting the branches of the weirwood as they strained up toward the roof. It looked as if the tree was trying to catch the moon and drag it down into the well. Old gods, Bran prayed, if you hear me, don't send a dream tonight. Or if you do, make it a good dream. The gods made no answer.

In another example, Ghost (whom I consider an avatar of the old gods power) being warged by Jon is trying to run away from a moon which pursues him 'cackling' rather ominously (incidentally, ravens and crows both also cackle throughout the text):

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

"Snow," the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

On 8/9/2016 at 11:51 AM, Matthew. said:

On 8/8/2016 at 4:37 PM, Balerion06 said:

The Three Eyed Crow could also be an avatar of the collective "hive mind" of the weirwood network, considering that it was originally the Children of the Forest that used ravens to communicate.

I lean heavily toward this particular interpretation of the 3EC, especially in light of what we're told of the fate of greenseers: to eventually lose themselves into the weirwood, and join the collective. It would also fit with the sort of nebulous question of whether or not BR is the 3EC (he is and he isn't), as well as the show's interpretation, which has Jojen telling Bran that he is the crow.

In that sense, if the 3EC is a collective consciousness/hive mind composed of the various greenseers that have connected to weirnet, then the 3EC is Bloodraven, is Brandon Stark, is every greenseer that served before Bloodraven. The reason the personalities are distinct is because, in his dreams, Bran is talking to a collective that BR is just one small part of, while in the cave he's speaking to the mortal man Brynden Rivers.

That's interesting!  I'm reminded of a quote that hints of something similar, namely where Bran can sense the residue of a particular personality resident in a bird in whom he's been practicing flying and Bloodraven explains how a piece of the person lives on in the spirit medium and vice versa:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her."

"A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said. "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you."

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

The trees remember; men forget.  What do they remember?  They remember the True Tongue (=the song of the earth), therefore the trees can communicate with the birds in a way in which men have forgotten-- well, all except the greenseers I would argue, since the greenseers are resident in the birds as well as the trees, and can communicate via any possible vector in nature, including wind, water, stone, leaves, etc.  The song of the earth is not exclusive to any one species, and even includes the inanimate. I also see no reason why the moon or the sun should be singing in a different language, so a powerful greenseer might conceivably be able to influence events on a cosmic scale as well.

On 8/9/2016 at 0:08 PM, Black Crow said:

I've long argued against the Bloodraven is running everything theory and instead argue that Bran is needed not to take over as the supreme warlord or the wood. but as the weirwood's window into the world of men and its human voice. 

I don't think any one party can 'run everything', or pre-empt all eventualities.  Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that some parties wield more influence and power than others, mediated by the currency of knowledge.  Musing on both the extent and limitations of power, Illyrio remarks that ''the world is one great web, and a man dare not touch a single strand lest all the others tremble' (ADWD-Tyrion I). Varys's riddle of power is incomplete, deceptively excluding himself and his ilk.  Paradoxically, it's not the king, the sellsword, or the rich man who prevails, but an unseen other excluded from the riddle, yet the riddle and riddler at once-- the one at the center or close to the center of the web -- pulling the strings behind the scenes using some kind of usually secretly guarded knowledge.  There are many characters who fit this description:  Varys, Illyrio, Littlefinger, Bloodraven, Bran, etc.   Neither does one need to be a 'supreme warlord' in charge of paranormal powers in order to cause damage on a massive scale --as a demonstration thereof, just trace for yourself the consequences of Littlefinger's influence alone to see that carnage and misery can be deftly achieved without the help of magic.  

Bran's power is more than a 'window'; at least the window ought not to be interpreted as a passive observational position.  The window as the portal to knowledge and transformation is the site of immense power and activity, as symbolically illustrated by Bran pivotally being thrown from a window, triggering the opening of the 'window' of his third eye.  Also, there are plenty examples throughout the text of different agents attempting to gain some kind of tactical advantage by spying through windows or slipping through windows in order to infiltrate and influence their opponents.  Indeed, one of GRRM's themes is 'knowledge is power', and that this knowledge can be both redeeming and 'terrible'.  By the end, I suspect Bran will be sorely tempted and tested in one way or another.  

Once one holds dominion over space and time, as Bran does, I don't think you can argue that his territory is limited to the province of 'man' and his political realm alone.  GRRM has chosen to align Bran with an unavoidably cosmic/godly dimension, which doesn't necessarily mean that everything and everyone in the world is his puppet-- although his power has already compromised the free will of at least one person, namely Hodor.  

On 8/9/2016 at 11:05 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Let's bypass him not knowing what Bran was talking about when he asked him if he was the 3ec.Proceeding then then to talk about him being a black crow of the Night's watch.

How do you interpret the following..?:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

On 8/9/2016 at 11:05 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

The 3ec told Bran that there are different kinds of wings which infers that not all flights are the same thing. One wing and one flight taught to Bran by the 3EC was about Bran seeing beyond. The flight and the wings taught to him by BR was about slipping his skin.Different wings,two flights,two different teachers.

There's even as i pointed out before a difference in the lesson.BR's flying lesson had no boundaries or limits.Infact he promised Bran he will go beyond the trees.The 3eyc when Bran started to fly too much checked his ass as proceeded to peck him in his thrid eye to keep him from seeing to much.

While this is interesting to explore, I don't think the dichotomy as you've laid it out works all the way.  Navigating the weirwoods, as taught to him by Bloodraven, also allows Bran to 'see beyond,' facilitating time and space travel as they do, so that's not exclusive to the three-eyed-crow 'flight school'!  The weirwoods have been symbolically connected to climbing, flying and gaining perspective as early as AGOT, for example when Winterfell is compared to an enormous sprawling labyrinthine stone weirwood that Bran scales, and on which he perches like a bird, in order to get a birds-eye view:

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AGOT -- Bran II

The rooftops of Winterfell were Bran's second home. His mother often said that Bran could climb before he could walk. Bran could not remember when he first learned to walk, but he could not remember when he started to climb either, so he supposed it must be true.

To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn't even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stonetree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth.

When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know.

 

On 8/9/2016 at 11:05 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

There's even as i pointed out before a difference in the lesson.BR's flying lesson had no boundaries or limits

Nor do I think this is entirely consistent with the text.  For example, Bloodraven cautions him on the limitations of weirwood communication, and that it is not only not possible but nor should Bran attempt to commune with the dead or change the past.  Never one to respect the boundaries, Bran also subsequently attempts to prove Bloodraven wrong in this:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother thatI loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

It's not the teachers who do not heed the limits; it's Bran himself who is the overreacher.

On 8/9/2016 at 11:05 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

On 8/9/2016 at 11:05 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Then there's the below quote

Quote

On this night he dreamed of the weirwood.It was looking at him with its deep red eyes ,calling to him with its twisted wooded mouth,and from its pale branches the three eyed crow came flapping,pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords ACOK,Bran p,255

The trees were calling to him,as they called to BR and the 3EC came out of the Branches and started to peck at Bran pretty much hacking the communication.It didn't work because Bran went looking for the 3ec (who never,ever told Bran to come find him) and into the tutelage of the Weirwoods.

The 'hacking' idea is interesting, by which you mean the crow's intention is to disrupt the tree's message?  In the following example, however, the ravens peck at Bran in response to the Children singing, almost as if they are trying to reinforce the message (via 'raven morse code perhaps!' in tune with the song), rather than disrupt it...What do you think?:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. A pale sun rose and set and rose again. Red leaves whispered in the wind. Dark clouds filled the skies and turned to storms. Lightning flashed and thunder rumbled, and dead men with black hands and bright blue eyes shuffled round a cleft in the hillside but could not enter. Under the hill, the broken boy sat upon a weirwood throne, listening to whispers in the dark as ravens walked up and down his arms.

"You will never walk again," the three-eyed crow had promised, "but you will fly." Sometimes the sound of song would drift up from someplace far below. The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs.

On 8/10/2016 at 9:04 AM, Tucu said:

Found an interesting and related section in the world book about the priests of Boash that founded Lorath in its current incarnation:

Their eunuch priests wore eyeless hoods in honor of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the "higher truths" of creation that lay concealed behind the world's illusions

Also interesting is that the worshippers of Boash were a dissident sect that left Valyria (Boash being the Valyrian Blind God) and they share a characteristic with the Faceless Men:

An essential part of their doctrine was an extreme abnegation of self; only by freeing themselves of human vanity could men hope to become one with the godhood. Accordingly, the Boash'i put aside even their own names, and spoke of themselves as "a man" or "a woman" rather than say "I" or "me" or "mine."

So this seems to link the Wargs/Greenseers with the Valyrian religion and the Faceless Men.

Thanks for that-- very relevant!  We've previously theorised on the 'Bran's growing powers' re-read thread that Bloodraven might indeed have some kind of Braavos connection.  He's also often depicted as a hooded figure who prefers the cover of fog or darkness, which also serves to nourish his power.  He says as much to Bran here:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The singers made Bran a throne of his own, like the one Lord Brynden sat, white weirwood flecked with red, dead branches woven through living roots. They placed it in the great cavern by the abyss, where the black air echoed to the sound of running water far below. Of soft grey moss they made his seat. Once he had been lowered into place, they covered him with warm furs.

There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

 

[Lord Wraith]

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Presumably she needed to learn about the realms of men, but then the tree-huggers got Bloodraven and now Bran to provide that window.

The real question, as you say, is whether this intelligence gathering is defensive, passive or aggressive.

I personally don't trust the COTF but they are watching humanity. I am sure that Bloodraven has manipulated certain events in the books. Yet is that of his own volition, the living Children, or the collective of the Weirnet?

[wolfmaid7]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

How do you interpret the following..?:

Bran having no clue on really who he's going to meet and making an assumption that he's going to meet the 3ec.CHs not answering him directly and pretty much saying whatever.

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

While this is interesting to explore, I don't think the dichotomy as you've laid it out works all the way.  Navigating the weirwoods, as taught to him by Bloodraven, also allows Bran to 'see beyond,' facilitating time and space travel as they do, so that's not exclusive to the three-eyed-crow 'flight school'!  The weirwoods have been symbolically connected to climbing, flying and gaining perspective as early as AGOT, for example when Winterfell is compared to an enormous sprawling labyrinthine stone weirwood that Bran scales, and on which he perches like a bird, in order to get a birds-eye view:

Ah you miss my overall point and made it at the same time.What we are talking about( to reiterate) is whether or not Bloodraven is the 3EC.What i'm showing is that they aren't.I don't think "seeing beyond" is synonymous with the 3ec at all.It clearly isn't is .BR told Bran one day he will see beyond the trees.The highlight is the 3ec's statement to Bran about there being different kinds of wings and BR is helping Bran to excercise one set of wings which has nothing to do with what the wings the 3ce was teaching Bran to excercise.BR clearly no memory of teaching Bran how to fly before using another means

The 3ec thought Bran how to fly using prophecy,Bloodraven is teaching Bran how to fly using Skinchanging.BR is behaving as if what he's teaching Bran in the cave is their first lesson,which it was.He speaks of no lesson to Bran in the form of  a crow.

Two different summons.One from the crow,one from the weirwoods.Two lessons, one from the crow having to do with seeing prophectically,one from the weirwoods and BR who are teaching Bran to skinchange and its finer tune.So again everything we are seeing says that BR and the 3ec are separate entities.

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Nor do I think this is entirely consistent with the text.  For example, Bloodraven cautions him on the limitations of weirwood communication, and that it is not only not possible but nor should Bran attempt to commune with the dead or change the past.  Never one to respect the boundaries, Bran also subsequently attempts to prove Bloodraven wrong in this:

BR doesn't caution BR about "how far he can go" as you yourself pointed out,one day he'll be able to go beyond the trees.That is a limitation the 3ec takes action in preventing.Not a simple "hey you shouldn't fly to high." Bran was flying high and he stopped him.Again this is showing that we are dealing with two different entities,different ways of doing and approaching the same kind of lesson.

We have two summons ,crow and tree.Both entailed lessons of flights,approach and formula different because we are dealing with two different factions.

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

It's not the teachers who do not heed the limits; it's Bran himself who is the overreacher.

Not disagreeing with that,remember i'm not trying to disprove that,i'm trying to point out that the teachers are different.Case in point again.Bran over reaches.BR tells him he shouldn't do it,it can't be done. Bran overreaches the 3ec crow didn't say "Don't fly so high which may have been cool.Nope he responds as if Bran was going to get better at flying than him " I can see that" and proceedes to peck him in his third eye.

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The 'hacking' idea is interesting, by which you mean the crow's intention is to disrupt the tree's message?  In the following example, however, the ravens peck at Bran in response to the Children singing, almost as if they are trying to reinforce the message (via 'raven morse code perhaps!' in tune with the song), rather than disrupt it...What do you think?:

All things in context,they weren't flying in his face and pecking his third eye and he couldn't understand what they were saying.In the dream he could understand the weirwood and the crow flew over that call screaming at Bran pecking him in the third eye again till he woke.

I don't think they are trying to reinforce a message because he can't understand what songs the children are singing.

Context.....Bran flying to high,crow stopping him.

I hope this helps you understand where i'm coming from.I'm not disputing the similarity of the summons.From what i've seen they all are similar including the Dragon to Dany.I think that's just the formula and ive noted before on Heresy,nothing precludes an individual from hearing several summons from different entities.Its all about the choice,Which summons they choose to follow.

Jon is already getting a few summons....The crypts,the moon and Bran who opened Ghost's/Jon third eye but that was it.That was all she wrote.No lesson nothing.So Jon i believe still has his on the job training coming.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

recently noted Bran's ability to make the trees rustle without the aid of wind, implying therefore that Bran can speak both with breath (via wind) and, more mysteriously, without using breath (windless):  

 

A discussion about Euron and how he removes tongues got me thinking what the inversion of this could be? The opposite of course would be "many tongues", which led me to conclude that perhaps Bloodraven would be in possession of many tongues or ways to speak. This would include the true tongue of nature...the trees, rocks, streams, etc that the crows/ravens understand, but it could also refer to the whispering that Bran is practicing through the trees. Yes Bloodraven cautioned Bran to not call his father back from the dead, which implies that it's possible just not advisable, also that the past cannot be changed, however a whispered word in the right ear may be enough to change something in the future. The mummer's show hinted at such a possibility when Bran called out to his father on his way up the steps to the tower of joy, and in the books we have Ned hearing "something" when Bran called out...the true tongue I guess..., but Theon heard Bran as well. Whisper something enough times in someone's ear and they may think the gods are speaking to them. "I'm a godly man!" so spake Craster...who knows, maybe a whispered word in his ear caused him to believe the gods wanted him to sacrifice his sons?

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

We are meant to question if there could be more than one type of three-eyed crow.  Above, you mentioned that Bloodraven 'unwittingly' appeared to Bran in the coma dream as a crow.   I'm not sure I would say Bloodraven's avatar is 'unwitting.'  There's enough evidence to suggest that he can choose from and effectively control a multitude of avatars, his favorites being crows, ravens, fogs/mists, wolves, winds and of course weirwood trees.  On a meta-level, GRRM is the one deliberately choosing the avatar in question, in order to provide a symbolic clue as to Bloodraven's identity for the reader, so from that perspective it's not unwitting either!  In addition to 'Raventree Hall,' there's also Bloodraven's association with his signature fighting force 'the Raven's Teeth,' and the fact that he was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, hence making him 'Lord of the Crows.'  It's possible he might match the avatar to the person he intends to manipulate, so armed with the knowledge of Bran's fondness for birds it would make sense that he'd appear in avian form so that Bran would be more receptive to the message.  Finally, the clue is in the name, 'Brynden' and 'Brandon' being analogs of each other both meaning 'raven.'  Granted, much of this argument hinges on my assumption, which admittedly may be an oversimplification, that crows and ravens are used for Bloodraven interchangeably, given that he has been associated with both species.

But I also believe all skinchangers have a third eye...and you rightly describe reasons why Bloodraven would look like one in Bran's dreams. It's also very Odin-like to have ravens as "servants" similar to Hugninn (thought) and Muninn (memory) flying out into the world everyday bringing back information.

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I agree that this viewpoint cannot be so readily dismissed.  I think of the tree and Bloodraven in one (they're literally intertwined as half man-half tree snaking through each other) as the conductor or military commander, from which his fighting force is unleashed like so many flying arrows which take flight from the tree. Given the point I highlighted above of Bloodraven's association with crows literally and figuratively, as well as his signature private guards, the elite archers called 'the Raven's Teeth,' the crow 'crying in a voice as sharp as swords' is not incompatible with Bloodraven.  Fittingly, an arrow is fashioned from wood and feather, unleashed from a wooden bow, so the combination of tree (weirwood) and bird (feather), the white and the black working together, is not incompatible with the description of how Bloodraven conducts his operations, 'with a white arrow and a black spell' (The Sworn Sword).

Moreover, the use of the word-choice 'flapping' is interesting in that it combines the leaves and birds in one.  GRRM often uses imagery comparing the leaves of trees to birds. For example, the ravens cover the bare branches of the tree at Raventree Hall as if the birds were its leaves, hence the name 'Raventree'. In addition, he adds 'hands' to the metaphor, by frequently comparing the leaves of the weirwood to 1000 (Bloodraven's code number) bloodstained red hands 'waving', which is similar to 'flapping.'  The hands, like the number 100, are a clue to the presence of Bloodraven moving through his proxies:  Thus, we can say that both the leaves and the birds are in the hands, as they are the Hands, of the sorcerer, originally a famous Hand himself.  That said, I won't rule out the possibility of one of these 'Hands' going rogue or being a spy amongst the rest.

 

This explanation of symbolism is really good! Love it!

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The crippling, just as having red or green eyes, is a marker rather than a condition for being fey...I think the children explain that 'the chosen ones are not robust' and that they are not long for this world.  And, as you say, the crippling certainly inspires Bran to compensate for his disability.  However, the crippling is not the reason for his talent, but rather acts as a catalyst to perhaps accelerate the development of that pre-existing aptitude.  To give a 'real world' analogy, surely one could not argue that Stephen Hawking only started thinking about the grand mysteries of cosmic space-time as a consequence of his ALS (motor neuron disease).  We know this is false, because he was already in the thick of figuring out the kernel of these ideas while at Cambridge University, when he started falling ill.  In other words, his genius preceded his bodily decay.  The same can be said for Bran.  I think he is simply more talented than his siblings, as well as having for various reasons nurtured this talent earlier.  Just as in a family of musicians, there is always one who stands out. 

 

Crippling does seem to be a relatively common condition for greenseers as it does, like you say, heighten the other senses, but if Bloodraven was barely hanging on waiting for him, perhaps he just got tired of waiting? It would be interesting to see if we could go back and maybe find evidence suggesting that words were whispered in his ear to climb to the tower that very day? Or even the love of climbing...since Bran had an affinity for climbing, maybe this affinity was a suggestion whispered in his ear over and over again until he was compelled to take up the practice?

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

What an intriguing idea!  Also, I've always found it strange why they're called 'Black-wood' when they're associated with a white tree!  Any ideas what that's about?  It could refer to the black ravens covering the branches like leaves.  Additionally, the 'black wood' got me thinking about 'shade of the evening' which is brewed from the black wood/bark of the ebony tree.  The warlocks of Qarth derive their power by virtue of this black tree and  imprisoning others in their death-trap 'House of the Undying.'  Is there any connection to Bloodraven?

 

Just playing devil's advocate here...if the Blackwoods are trying to suppress weirwood power, then we might suspect Bloodraven isn't Bran's friend, but rather luring Bran into the cave in order to "chain" him to the trees.

As for the actual black-barked trees that shade of the evening is made from, that tree now seems linked to Euron. He's got a barrel of the stuff, but rather than being confined underground, Euron's tentacles are free to go wherever...at will...and above ground.

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Although I believe that Bloodraven has many avatars, so the crow and weirwood are not necessarily working for separate agencies, I agree with your recognition of Euron as an inverted Bloodraven.  Adding support to the Euron as crow theory, his moniker is 'The Crow's Eye.' 

 

The Crow's Eye...isn't that what the perch high upon a mast of a ship is called? Or is it the crow's nest? Either way I think it's related to his point of view. He's able to see everything from above just as a crow does even if he cannot skin change into them. How does he see from the same perspective of a crow? I'm pondering this question myself, especially if his god is the drowned god....however the north is currently upside down, so down is up.

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

You're onto something with the twin moon concept.  I had been wondering lately about the confusing and contradictory allegiances of the moon, in a brainstorming session with @Wizz-The-Smith for an essay we're planning on 'Bran's growing powers,' and your take on it helps me further. For example, sometimes the moon seems to be 'on the same side' as the weirwood (tree), whereas at other times it's opposed. For example, the Moon Door in the Eyrie is pure white weirwood without hint of duality, in contrast to the moon doors in the House of the Undying and the House of Black and White which are black and white, made of both ebony and weirwood, displaying a kind of 'ying-yang' duality in their aesthetic design.  I also noticed that the weirwood trees in the north sometimes try to thwart the moon, as if the moon is their enemy.  In the following example at the Night Fort where Bran and co. are sheltering, the weirwood tries to catch the moon which may be spying on them, and drown it in a well, which taken literally would be a drowned moon, evoking 'the Drowned God' and that krakenous eye lurking in the depths:

 

@WeaselPie has an interesting theory that Planetos (Westeros and Essos) is actually a moon itself. That way having the comet breaking one of the moons is more symbolic than actual. The Children feel like they're responsible for "breaking" the moon by trying to kill off the human invaders. They forged three "swords": 

1) First sword - tempered in water = hammer of waters

2) Second sword - tempered in the heart of a lion = they fought back using white walkers

3) Third sword - tempered in Nissa Nissa = they broke one of two moons and nearly killed everyone in the process. This was a do-over cataclysmic event on par with the Biblical event. Maybe instead of blowing up an actual moon....although I like the idea of burning moon=meteors being the First Watch carrying their fiery swords...maybe instead of actual moon meteors they conjured the red comet which brought it's own asteroids that fell and killed thousands, but also restarted the wheel of time and reset it to the very beginning. 

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

 

I think this means that Coldhands was also a man who was once called Brandon Stark.

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

While this is interesting to explore, I don't think the dichotomy as you've laid it out works all the way.  Navigating the weirwoods, as taught to him by Bloodraven, also allows Bran to 'see beyond,' facilitating time and space travel as they do, so that's not exclusive to the three-eyed-crow 'flight school'!  The weirwoods have been symbolically connected to climbing, flying and gaining perspective as early as AGOT, for example when Winterfell is compared to an enormous sprawling labyrinthine stone weirwood that Bran scales, and on which he perches like a bird, in order to get a birds-eye view

 

Flying could mean two different things. One could be the ability to slip your own skin and fly freely without going into another host and be able to return to your own body. This could be useful for watching current events in real time unseen.

The second thing could be the ability to enter someone's dream, much like Bloodraven did. Bran has already done this to Jon. Jon was dreaming when he saw Bran as a weirwood sapling with three eyes, but this was no wolf dream. I believe Bran sent Jon this dream. Jon was Ghost, but "Ghost the wolf" didn't actually see the sapling. When Bran touched Jon's forehead to demonstrate the third eye, all of a sudden he saw what Ghost was really looking at: the wildling camp, and that he was standing on the edge of a precipice. So the sapling dream was Bran communicating to Jon in the same manner that Bloodraven came to Bran in a dream. And just like Bloodraven was trying to get Bran to open his third eye, Bran was trying to get Jon to open his. The weirwood sapling dream was not a true wolf dream, because that was not what Ghost was doing at the time. It was Jon that was howling...calling out for his pack mates, because Ghost doesn't speak.

 

4 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

"You will never walk again," the three-eyed crow had promised, "but you will fly." Sometimes the sound of song would drift up from someplace far below. The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though. Their small black eyes were full of secrets, and they would caw at him and peck his skin when they heard the songs.

I can agree with this as well. Sometimes pain helps instill a lesson!

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I also noticed that the weirwood trees in the north sometimes try to thwart the moon, as if the moon is their enemy.  In the following example at the Night Fort where Bran and co. are sheltering, the weirwood tries to catch the moon which may be spying on them, and drown it in a well, which taken literally would be a drowned moon, evoking 'the Drowned God' and that krakenous eye lurking in the depths

@ravenous reader I meant to touch on this as well...you must know how much I love it! When I read this I went, "A-HA!"

The Drowned God is Euron's god and it is the other moon, the one the Children "broke", which I think included suppressing magic behind the Wall. But now that the warding on the hinge has been removed the Drowned God is free again...the north is upside down and under water as Patchface keeps telling us. The magic of the Drowned God now moves freely, blown about by the cold winds, raising the dead, and powering white walkers. Soon they'll be crawling over the Wall like spiders until the Wall finishes expelling itself in snows hundreds of feet deep.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 

@Black Crow:  I would be interested in reading your reflections on Crows.  Keep me posted!  One key question I have, which I hope you'll address, is whether GRRM uses crows and ravens synonymously, or whether they are clear-cut distinctive entities symbolically.  

What a splendid post. As I say given current discussions I'm now minded to open the bicentennial series with the Crows.

In response to your immediate question I have the feeling that Crows and Ravens are very similar, as in life, but not interchangeable - and we also have the in-text example of the ordinary black ravens of the Citadel and the white ones.

I have a suspicion that the ravens used as couriers in the south may have lost their telepathic abilities - perhaps because its been bred ut of them and/or the weirwoods are gone - but the crows up north have still retained their powers.

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think the quote you meant is this one, from which I can definitely get a Euron 'feel', the red sea moon shimmering red as if it's winking with every wave:

I have been wondering about moonlight and how the trees collect it as a source of power.  The spindly weirwood at the Night Fort seeming to break through the stone to collect the light; the moonglow of the Black Gate itself. (I'm reminded of dwarf doors in the LotR that only become visible when starlight shines on them.)  Othor and his moon face, so described by Jon when he tears down the curtain in Mormont's quarters letting in the moonlight. 

Bran's coma dream is the god's eye view or moon's eye view of the world. He can see across continents and zoom in for the closer view. It's certainly not the skinchanging view of a crow or an eagle. It's is seeing from above.  Something Bran mentions in aDwD Bran III:

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife.  Snowflakes drifted down soundlessly to cloak the soldier pines and sentinels in white. The drifts grew so deep that they covered the entrance to the caves, leaving a white wall that Summer had to dig through whenever he went outside to join his pack and hunt.  Bran did not oft range with them in those days, but some nights he watched them from above.

This is before Bran takes the weirwood paste, so this ability doesn't seem dependent on marrying the tree.  I suspect a full moon is necessary to be able to watch from above on some nights.

There also this passage from the same chapter:

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow,  When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle.

This brings to mind the passage you mentioned of Jon-Ghost chased by the moon; cackling with laughter. Jon's perception of the moon might be more Ghost's perception than Jon's.  An avatar with which Ghost is already familiar.  Likewise when 3-eyed tree Bran appears to Jon-Ghost; it is Ghost that recognizes the wierwood. While in Bran's dreams; Bloodraven still appears as a crow.

There is also the notion of mirroring.  "Dreams become lessons, lesson become dreams".  With Tyrion's twin moons; we get the reflected light from one moon mirrored on the water.  Almost like a telescope, the moon as the primary mirror reflected onto the water as a secondary mirror and viewed through the lens of the third eye.  So the Blood Eye or the wine dark Smoking Sea with it's crow's eye surrounded by volcanos and the God's Eye Lake providing the view from above for those with the ability to use it.

It's interesting to contrast Bran's thoughts with Tyrion's two headed dream:

"Men would not be sad.  Men would be wroth.  Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance.  The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill." - Bran III aDwD

Tyrion II DwD

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

Tyrion has both a green eye (god's eye); and a black eye (crow's eye).  This above dream would seem to be something on the order of a greendream depicting the future.  I'm not sure if this dream was sent to him or whether he has the ability to use the mirrors himself. Almost as though he has the ability to look into someone else's mind rather than the other way around.

Bran III DwD:

"It is given to a few to drink of that *green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see," said Jojen.

*There are several interesting associations with the drunken god: The Drunkard's Tower at Moat Cailin; The Leaning Aspen with a carved face and broken nose that Jon sees on the way to Molestown from Castle Black and the Fountain of the Drunken God beside the statue of Trios in Tyrosh. 

We don't know much about Tyrion's dreams because up until Connington dries him out; he stays up all night or he gets drunk to avoid dreaming.

Jaimie's dreams seem to have more of the quality of weirwood dreams and Cersei's are altogether different; terrifying and insane.  I tend to think these are more sorcery and glass candles.

 

 

 

[Brad Stark]

Back to 3ec pecking Bran's forehead, I got the opposite impression.  I thought he was trying to open the eye, make it so Bran could see better.  Almost similar to Jesus in the Bible spitting and rubbing mud on the eyes of the blind man to make him see.

[Tucu]

13 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Thanks for that-- very relevant!  We've previously theorised on the 'Bran's growing powers' re-read thread that Bloodraven might indeed have some kind of Braavos connection.  He's also often depicted as a hooded figure who prefers the cover of fog or darkness, which also serves to nourish his power.  He says as much to Bran here:

Reading the passage about Lorath makes me think that the connection is just shared building blocks. Greenseer and Valyrian magic are built around human sacrifice, dream projection, prophetic visions, darkness and the third eye.

The Faceless Men probably recognized Arya's powers and trained her using their own lore, not an intervention from BR.

 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

Reading the passage about Lorath makes me think that the connection is just shared building blocks. Greenseer and Valyrian magic are built around human sacrifice, dream projection, prophetic visions, darkness and the third eye.

The Faceless Men probably recognized Arya's powers and trained her using their own lore, not an intervention from BR.

 

Indeed, whether or not Syrio Forel, Jaqen H'gar and who knows who else are one and the same, I think that Arya's potential was recognised by Syrio, and that she was then shadowed out of the City by Jaqen and so led to the door...  Bloodraven was never involved. 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Back to 3ec pecking Bran's forehead, I got the opposite impression.  I thought he was trying to open the eye, make it so Bran could see better.  Almost similar to Jesus in the Bible spitting and rubbing mud on the eyes of the blind man to make him see.

Yeah, my impression too, and of course Bran tries the same trick with Jon.

[wolfmaid7]

16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Back to 3ec pecking Bran's forehead, I got the opposite impression.  I thought he was trying to open the eye, make it so Bran could see better.  Almost similar to Jesus in the Bible spitting and rubbing mud on the eyes of the blind man to make him see.

 

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yeah, my impression too, and of course Bran tries the same trick with Jon.

I still have to disgree with the both of you on this.The 3ec wasn't trying to open Bran's eyes there.He aleardy had.

The below quote doesn't evoke what you guys are proposing to me.

"I'm flying," he cried out in delight.

"I've noticed, (Italics GRRM'S) said the three eyed crow.It took to the air,flapping its wings in his face,slowing him,blinding him.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

"I've noticed, (Italics GRRM'S) said the three eyed crow.It took to the air,flapping its wings in his face,slowing him,blinding him.

I agree, the crow was taking out gobbets of flesh; as though trying to remove the third eye.  Bran experiences pain.

[Black Crow]

Nah, I'm still of the view the crow was trying to open his eye; Jon likewise felt pain as the branch from the weirwood with his brother's face tries to do the same. 

While I certainly don't see Jon as a greenseer, I can easily see him [unknowingly] using a wolf as an avatar.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 8/15/2016 at 5:01 PM, Lord Wraith said:

I personally don't trust the COTF but they are watching humanity. I am sure that Bloodraven has manipulated certain events in the books. Yet is that of his own volition, the living Children, or the collective of the Weirnet?

I think it could be all three. Bloodraven, while he still glories in his past, is very much a part of the weirnet. The greenseers unnaturally long lives, ensnared by the trees has always been a way of life for the Singers, but to humans it should be quite queer. But what else to do when you are nothing but skin and bones and memories? Be content to go with the flow, I guess. 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

I think it could be all three. Bloodraven, while he still glories in his past, is very much a part of the weirnet. The greenseers unnaturally long lives, ensnared by the trees has always been a way of life for the Singers, but to humans it should be quite queer. But what else to do when you are nothing but skin and bones and memories? Be content to go with the flow, I guess. 

Yes indeed, Coldhands remember calls him a Dreamer and so Its worth also remembering the Kurtz parallel:

In general there is an assumption that the Heart of Winter which Bran saw in his vision with the three-eyed crow is to be found in the geography of Westeros, somewhere in or even beyond the Lands of Always Winter - and that it is where the mysterious Others come from. A few threads back, however, I suggested that it might be something else entirely and related to Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness.

As with GRRM’s own work, Conrad’s story is multi-layered with different shades of meaning. Thus at one level the Heart of Darkness is the unknown African wilderness itself; a vast blank space on the map just as like the haunted forest and the Lands of Always Winter. GRRM has previously cited standing on Hadrian’s Wall as a major inspiration, but it was not just the structure which attracted him: We walked along the top of the wall just as the sun was going down. It was the fall. I stood there and looked out over the hills of Scotland and wondered what it would be like to be a Roman centurion from Italy, Greece, or even Africa, covered in furs and not knowing what would be coming out of the north at you. I wanted to capture that feeling.

But of course sooner or later the story has to move beyond the Wall and into the dark continent beyond. There, in Conrad’s book the darkness also applies not just to the wilderness and to those savage tribes who live there, but also to those who intruded on it, whether the Romans in Britain, the First Men in Westeros or those venturing singly into the interior to become seduced and ultimately consumed by it.

Singularly it applies to Kurtz, the man at the Inner Station around whom Conrad’s story revolves. The narrator, Marlow, is to go into the interior in search of Kurtz, who ostensibly is an ivory trader but soon turns out to be something more. Like Bloodraven, Kurtz is an enigma, a man of great reputation, brilliant, “Dreamer, Wizard, call him what you will” but also mysterious in his effective disappearance. When last heard of Kurtz was sick but instead of coming down the river he had inexplicably turned back, alone, hence Marlow’s journey upstream to find him. In this too Kurtz also resembles Bloodraven, for there is no hint of his fate, no mention of the Lord Commander’s supposed death or comment on his vanishing, but if we take Kurtz’ as a precedent, then his failure to return is more explicable and might be something to be regretted as an inconvenience at the time but not so memorable as a bloody disaster or a mysterious and unexplained disappearance.

When Marlow and Bran arrive at the Inner Station and at the Cave respectively [both of which are extensively decorated with skulls] neither Kurtz nor Bloodraven are dead; they only look that way, as Marlow strikingly tells it: His covering had fallen off, and his body emerged from it pitiful and appalling as from a winding sheet. I could see the cage of his ribs all astir, the bones of his arm waving. It was as though an animated image of death carved out of old ivory had been shaking its hand with menaces…

Compare and contrast that with Bran’s description of Bloodraven at first meeting: “His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white… A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.”

They are different, but only in detail; Bran is looking at Kurtz, and Marlow at Bloodraven, and like Bloodraven, Kurtz is venerated as a god. This is very explicit in Heart of Darkness and implicit in:

The last greenseer, the singers called him…”Most of him has gone into the tree,” explained the singer Meera called Leaf. “He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know.”

 

[wolfmaid7]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

I agree, the crow was taking out gobbets of flesh; as though trying to remove the third eye.  Bran experiences pain.

I won't say he was trying to remove it,but i think he was trying to keep Bran from flying to high or too much.His tone "i've noticed" gives me the impression that the master didn't want the student eclipsing him and he gave Bran what my mom would call  "a spiritual blow" This kind of thing would happen when someone was jealous or worried that their position or power was going to be stolen by another.

Interesting,based on the line where Bran was asking the crow what he was doing and we get this:

"The crow opened its beak ,and cawed at him,a shrill scream of fear and the grey mist shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil he saw the crow was really a woman,a serving woman...."

I wonder why the crow was fearful.Was he fearful for Bran or for himself,the blue bolded even though it melded into the serving woman;it seemed like the crow was attacked by the mist.

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Nah, I'm still of the view the crow was trying to open his eye; Jon likewise felt pain as the branch from the weirwood with his brother's face tries to do the same. 

While I certainly don't see Jon as a greenseer, I can easily see him [unknowingly] using a wolf as an avatar.

There was no pain involved when Bran touched Jon.

 

"Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon."

 

[Lord Wraith]

7 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

I think it could be all three. Bloodraven, while he still glories in his past, is very much a part of the weirnet. The greenseers unnaturally long lives, ensnared by the trees has always been a way of life for the Singers, but to humans it should be quite queer. But what else to do when you are nothing but skin and bones and memories? Be content to go with the flow, I guess. 

When you are dealing with a collective it probably is all three. I wonder how many other human greenseers have been ensnared like Bloodraven and soon (perhaps?) Bran. It is so irksome that we know so little about the Children and their agenda...

[Black Crow]

Quite