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wolfmaid7

Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

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First i want to thank everyone that took part in the project ,and a special thanks to the troopers that furnished us with the essays.I decided to have everyone do summaries just to refresh what has been discussed through the project as part as an extended OP. We then simply debate what has been put forth like before and  have more of a compare/ comparison  look at each essay and the points in relation to the story.Not every point made appear in the summaries ,but feel free to ask questions about a point, or raise a point not reiterated in the summary.

What seemed to be of importance when discussing Jon's parentage are the following:

1.Narrative sense.

2.Thematic sense.

3."Evidence." I put that in quotation because if there's one thing this project has shown is there are difference of opinions in what constituites as evidence.

4.Timeline is another sub topic that is hotly debated and we can't get away from it,so in the mix it is.

If i forgot anything that you guys think should have been on the list but isn't ,go right ahead and bring it up.

Lastly,we all can get a little heated under the collar when discussing this (guilty of that myself),so lets try and keep it as civil as possible and just have a nice discussion.

Jump in at anytime to discuss "once" I've posted all (7-8)  summaries.

:cheers:

 

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                                                                                           Mance + Lyanna = Jon 

Summary:


Jon is the Bastard of Winterfell, which traditionally is the child of Bael the Bard and a daughter of Winterfell. Mance recounts two visits to Winterfell and takes note of Jon both times.The only evidence Lyanna was ever at the tower of joy is based on Ned’s fever dream, which is a mish-mash of memories, symbolism, and hallucinations.Qhorin Halfhand was Mance’s friend and fellow man of the Night’s Watch, and his words to Jon seem to imply that he knows Mance is Jon’s father.Jon compares himself to Mance saying, “No more than me.”
 

When Mance was disguised as Able he sang The Dornishman’s Wife song and changed the lyrics to “Northman’s daughter”.Arya is said to be like Lyanna, so it seems implied that Lyanna was willfull and more likely to run away to avoid her marriage than to fall for a Disney-like fairy tale prince. It is possible Lyanna ran away to the Wall disguised as a boy just as Arya did.

By

Feather Crystal

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                                                                                                          Arthur + Lyanna= Jon

Summary:

1. The symbolism of the sworn brotherhoods (white cloak/black cloak). Both brotherhoods have a LONG history of breaking the oath/tradition of paramours. Jon breaks that vow. Arthur, too, could have easily strayed from his oaths—like father, like son.


2. Rhaegar and Arthur were best friends, equally melancholy, and kept other Kingsguard out of their business at Harrenhal. 


3. Arthur had the same opportunity at Harrenhal to meet Lyanna. Rhaegar may have given the roses for in Arthur’s name, since Arthur didn’t win. A la Cyrano de Bergerac.


4. Rhaegar wasn’t known to be lusty or impulsive. But Arthur was known for daring, even recklessness—as with the Smiling Knight. He’s feisty and impulsive—Like Lyanna. 


5. Ned associates Lyanna’s scream and rose petals directly with his fight with Arthur. 


6. Ned’s returning Dawn is an act of devotion to Lyanna. The Daynes’ respect for Ned is much too high, given that he killed their chosen son followed up with Ashara’s suicide.


7. The Daynes have some Valyrian features (purple eyes, Ned Dayne’s pale blond hair). Ned might have feared Jon would look Daynish and be mistaken for a Targ.


8. Jon is strongly tied to the Sword of the Morning—like his father?

 To quote Superunknown5 directly: 
“Like father, like son, Jon is a Dornish member of a martial organization sworn to celibacy who forswore his vow to take a paramour, a wild northern beauty. Jon is the son of winter, the child of death, grief incarnate. A symbol of everything that's gone wrong in Westeros: Love.” 

 

Essay by SuperUnknown5

Summay by Sly Wren
 

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                                                                                              Eddard + Wylla = Jon

Summary:

Ned Stark is one of the most honourable men in Westoros, but he’s also a terrible liar according to those who know him. Despite this, no one in story has ever doubted that he is Jon Snow’s father, and there are multiple people verifying his tale that he is Jon Snow’s father. 

Further evidence that Jon is Ned’s son, is that he distinctly looks specifically like Ned, who looked distinctly different than his siblings, and therefore Jon doesn't just look like a Stark in general. Thus it seems far more likely that he is Ned’s son than any other Stark’s son. Furthermore, Ned’s explanation for who Jon’s mother was seemingly fits with the fact that Jon has darker skin as presumably Wylla is a Dornish woman as she is currently a Dornish servant.

Thirdly, Ned calling Jon his blood by no means meant that he was not calling Jon his son. Rodrick Cassel, Catelyn Tully, Jeor Mormont, and Jon Snow all use the notion of blood to denote specifically someone’s child and not just a general familial relationship, thus when Ned says Jon is his blood, he is also calling him his son. 

Fourthly, Bran’s weirwood vision does not indicate that Jon is not Ned’s son. Firstly, it’s unclear if Ned is even talking about Jon and Robb in that vision as he could be talking about Robb and Theon, but regardless, Jon is not actually Robb’s brother, Ned’s bastard or not. They are half brothers, and Ned is simply hoping that they will grow up as if they were full brothers. Asking them to grow up close as brothers is still a perfectly correct statement given that Robb and Jon aren't actually full brothers.

Fifth, Jon Snow received a direwolf while every trueborn child of Ned and Catelyn’s did as well. Seeing as there is some evidence that there are other Stark bastards around other than just Jon, but none of them received direwolves seeing as the 6 pups and their mother are the first direwolves seen in 200 years, it seems likely that only Ned’s children received direwolves. Thus Jon should a son of Ned otherwise the other Stark bastards should've gotten direwolves too if the wolves weren't exclusively for children of Ned but were for Starks in general.

Sixth, Ned never ignored his family’s questions regarding Jon Snow’s mother. Rather it seems that he simply didn’t bring it up himself, and choose instead to try and unite his family around their similarities instead of their differences. Ned did not speak of Jon’s mother as to do so would create wedges in his family, which is something that we know that he did not want. Why should Ned remind everybody of the fact that Jon is only partially their family unlike everybody else, instead of focusing on the fact that Jon is still a part of their family?

Seventh, GRRM has seemingly created a so called “bastard look” in his series where bastards always inherit some feature of their father. Seeing as Jon’s features are almost all Stark as far as we've been told, Jon’s father should have been a male Stark, and he did indeed inherit many of Ned's specific features as he looks incredibly like him.

Eighth, Ned feels sickened to learn that Cersei has managed to pass off Jaime’s children as her own. Yet if Jon is not Ned’s, then that is exactly what did himself did by claiming that Jon was his son if he in fact was not. He's not saying Jon's his heir of course like she was saying they were Robert's, but he's still lying to everyone by saying Jon's his son if he's not, yet he's disgusted to learn Cersei lied to everyone that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were Robert's when they weren't. Furthermore, we see that people are able to see who someone’s parents are by looking at the face of the child. Yet everyone agrees that Jon looks like Ned. No one ever looks at Jon and sees anything that might indicate otherwise, and this is as mentioned a series where many characters doubt parentage simply on looks. Jon has all the right features to be Ned's son.

By 

MarkG171

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                                                                                                    Stark + Lyanna = Jon

Summary:

This essay explores the possibility that Jon is the son of Lyanna by one of her brothers. The reason why such a theory even exists can be summed up thus:

The three main characters in ASOIAF are Jon, Dany and Tyrion. One from each of the big three families; Stark, Targaryen and Lannister. All three share certain things in common. They are all outcasts in some way. Their mothers (I'm assuming Lyanna is Jon's mother here, 'cos she is) all died while giving birth to them. They are the three exemplars of their houses. Both Dany's parents are Targaryens. Both Tyrion's parents are Lannisters. Follow the pattern, and both Jon's parents should be Starks.

The evidence to support this hypothesis is not huge, but there are a few small areas where it actually makes the best sense of the evidence. Although I favour R + L = J, this alternative creates some intriguing symmetries that are well worth exploring.

By

Kingmonkey

 

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                                                                                               Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon

Summary

Does this essay really need introduction? Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. If you're reading this board, you know about this theory already.

The problem with this theory is that it's been around a long time, and people have studied the text minutely for two decades trying to prove it. Every tiny little thing that might potentially point to R+L=J has been presented at some point as definitive proof, to the extent that it makes the whole thing start to sound suspicious. How much are we just seeing patterns when we look for them? How credible is the hypothesis really, if its proponents keep offering “evidence” which looks like a horrible stretch of logic all the time?

I wrote this essay trying to respond to that point by going back to basics. I avoid debates such as whether or not Jon was legitimate to avoid complicating the issue, and try to show just how solid the argument is when you cut it to the quick.

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1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

                                                                                           Mance + Lyanna = Jon 

Summary:


Jon is the Bastard of Winterfell, which traditionally is the child of Bael the Bard and a daughter of Winterfell. Mance recounts two visits to Winterfell and takes note of Jon both times.The only evidence Lyanna was ever at the tower of joy is based on Ned’s fever dream, which is a mish-mash of memories, symbolism, and hallucinations.Qhorin Halfhand was Mance’s friend and fellow man of the Night’s Watch, and his words to Jon seem to imply that he knows Mance is Jon’s father.Jon compares himself to Mance saying, “No more than me.”
 

When Mance was disguised as Able he sang The Dornishman’s Wife song and changed the lyrics to “Northman’s daughter”.Arya is said to be like Lyanna, so it seems implied that Lyanna was willfull and more likely to run away to avoid her marriage than to fall for a Disney-like fairy tale prince. It is possible Lyanna ran away to the Wall disguised as a boy just as Arya did.

By

Feather Crystal

Might be too early to jump in, but we have some evidence that Lyanna was in Dorne from Lady Dustin:

Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests.

Maybe Ned killed some other teenage girl on his way back from the South, but I think he really brought Lyanna's bones.

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Hold off a bit guys, i still have some other summaries.Had to take the hubby to the Dr's.He busted up his shoulder.

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                                                                                         Howland+ Lyanna=Jon

Summary:

Howland Reed and Lyanna are Jon’s parents and  GRRM as he has done throughout this story has inverted perception and expectation with regards to chivalry and the dynamics between male and female romance. In this case ,the damsel in distress isn’t a girl but a young man who was saved by a warrior woman. But Lyanna's actions didn't stop there, we are told that Lyanna took Howland back to her tent and nursed his wounds. Thus, creating an occasion and opportunity for feelings to develop between Howland and Lyanna.

A simulated Beltane Ritual was in effect at Harrenhal. We know that Lyanna was cast in the role of the May Queen and Howland was said to have spent time on the Isle of Faces with the green men .The green men who were said to have worn antlers are a visual representation of the horned god who was in fact the mate of the goddess. So his connection to the green man archetype though indirect is there.

Howland as we know is yet to make his appearance and if Alfie Allen is correct and the secret to Jon parentage is akin to the Luke Skywalker situation; not only was Jon raised by an uncle, his father’s still alive and he has a twin.

Essay by Frey Family Reunion

Last minute Summary By Wolfmaid7

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                                                                                            Robert + Lyanna= Jon

Summary:

Robert and Lyanna being Jon’s parents is supported by the text. Communicatively, dimensional hints on the part of the author links them to Jon individually and all three as unit .Having Jon associate Robert with Lyanna in his 1st pov sets the foundation. This is important because off the bat they together are not an oddity to Jon or others in the story.

1. Jon has a base understanding of a relationship that is already established in the text by the author and characters subtly and overtly. We find out form Jon that Ned frequently talked to him about Robert. Ned exalted Robert before Jon’s eyes. His feats in general and on the Trident, placing him above all warriors AND PRINCES. This isn’t a father talking to a son about “his “feats in battle. This is a friend talking to a son about “his father’s” greatest exploits. So begins a pattern of info dumps about Robert to Jon. As it stands, the narrative has Robert as a more current and relevant connection to Jon, directly and indirectly.

2.Robert and Lyanna were betrothed for a long time and weren’t strangers .It is a certainty that they spent time getting to know each other which explains personalized language from the characters and Robert’s love for Lyanna. The connectivity with them on a personal level is evident in Robert’s behavior and 1st hand accounts. Unless Robert and Ned were delusional Lyanna and Robert were intimate.

3. Lastly, via representational layering, in the very first chapter of Agot’s GRRM gives us the Great rite aka “The Sacred marriage” with the finding of the wolves. “The Stag athame (d) the she-wolf and she whelped”. We are given these players and setting again in the story indicating that the “Sacred Marriage” took place at Harrenhall. As it was in the beginning, it is the story of the horned god (GRRM has labeled Robert) impregnating the goddess (GRRM labeled Lyanna) to bring about change, new beginning, and new paths in the form of Robert and then Jon. Long before the World Book gave us Garth Greenhand it was evident to some of us on Heresy that George was utilizing the Oak and Holly King myth. The mythical theme, emotional connections and parallels supports Robert+ Lyanna=Jon

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4 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Thanks Sly,you beat me to it.I was just about to edit the original post to put the links in.But this works fine.

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5 hours ago, Tucu said:

Might be too early to jump in, but we have some evidence that Lyanna was in Dorne from Lady Dustin:

Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests.

Maybe Ned killed some other teenage girl on his way back from the South, but I think he really brought Lyanna's bones.

Lady Dustin only knows what Ned told her. 

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56 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lady Dustin only knows what Ned told her. 

I don't even think Ned told Lady D anything with regards to bringing Lyanna back from Dorne."That" conversation most likely never happened.I think she assumed it that based on what people thought they knew at the time.As we know Ned always just let people draw their own conclusions and go with it.

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3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Thanks Sly,you beat me to it.I was just about to edit the original post to put the links in.But this works fine.

:cheers: Sorry for jumping the gun! 

Okay, I'm short on time, but I'll dive in with a quick foray into some of the criteria you laid out.

I've only done the options that I could do quickly.

But here's at least a start at comparing them.

1.NARRATIVE SENSE.

            A: Rhaegar and Lyanna?

PRO: If there’s a need for another Targaryen beyond Dany, then this could be important. It really might depend on how important the prophecy and the Targaryens are in “solving” the Long Night.

CON: Martin’s made it pretty clear that prophecy is not all that important/reliable in his world. That focusing on prophecy is usually pointless or even disastrous. And that whether or not a prophecy is “fulfilled” usually depends on interp. Plus—we already have Dany. And she’s the one who Rhaegar looks at when he says, “there must be one more.” She very well could be his third child.

             B. Arthur and Lyanna?

PRO: The Sword of the Morning is ancient. It and Dawn well predate Valyria and the Targaryens. They are clearly tied to the end of the Long Night. And so far in the novels and World Book, ONLY a chosen Dayne can wield it. And so far in the novels, Jon and only Jon has had a “magical” moment with the Sword of the Morning. If Jon is Arthur’s kid, that becomes very easy to see him becoming the Sword of the Morning and wielding Dawn.

CON: Martin hasn’t given us much information on Dawn and how the Sword of the Morning is chosen. There are BIG narrative gaps that he needs to fill. Until we see how he fills them, it’s hard to be certain of anything.

C. Ned and Wylla?

PRO: Ned says Jon is his. Jon sees himself as Ned’s. Very direct. And emotionally satisfying.

CON: The novels strongly suggest that Jon is tied to Lyanna and her roses. And that Lyanna had a baby.

            D. Stark and Lyanna?

                        PRO: There’s incest everywhere else in the novels. And Ned’s thoughts of shame over Jon. Plus, if his role is to be the “ultimate” Stark to end the Long Night, incest seems. . . helpful.

                        CON: The “ewww!” factor. And the narrative tie between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  And the narrative Lyanna’s screams and the fight at the tower.

2.THEMATIC SENSE.

            A. Rhaegar and Lyanna?

            Back to Prophecy and the importance of Targaryens and whether or not anyone needs to “be” the song of ice and fire. Rhaegar just said Aegon’s “song” is the “song of ice and fire.” NO indication of needing anything beyond that.

            So, seems like it may depend on how much a reader thinks the Targs matter. They are new interlopers to Westeros in the grand scheme of things—so, are they conquerors or saviors? I’m inclined to go with “conquerors aren’t saviors—they dominate.” And Fire and Blood is NOT the slogan of the kind and the generous.

            B. Arthur and Lyanna?

            Martin has spent a LOT of time setting up that sworn brothers are NEVER paragons, even the best of the best. It’s a theme he comes back to. Frequently. And no one is more of a paragon than Arthur—seems like we’re being set up to be told that he failed in his vows.

And Jon, one of the most idealistic vow takers, fails after being tempted by a wild northern girl. Thematically, Jon would be following in his father’s footsteps exactly if he’s Arthur’s son.

Thematically, the Starks and Daynes are the oldest of the oldest families. The Starks are directly tied to the Long Night and the Wall. The Daynes have a title and a sword tied to the Long Night and the Battle for the Dawn. A child unifying these houses could be thematically very important in ending the Long Night.

Plus, thematically, Jon is VERY closely tied to both swords (Dayne) and wolves (Stark). And has a vision of the Sword of the Morning with the Wall.

C. Ned and Wylla?

Martin’s made it clear that Jon seems himself as Ned’s son. And the idea of the bastard, and the sacrifice of bastards and Starks at the Wall and even north of the Wall—those have been well established in the novels.

Plus, it would be emotionally satisfying if Jon didn’t’ have to find out his “dad” lied to him.

D. Stark and Lyanna?

Martin’s made it clear that incest is a big thing in the novels and that it shows up culturally everywhere. Craster and his curse make it clear that he at least believes his blood “pays off” whatever he sacrifices to.

And the “Snowgate” at the Wall potentially ties back the Night’s King sacrificing his “seed” to the woman he finds—perhaps even a sacrifice like Craster makes.

Plus, as @Kingmonkey  has WELL noted—the Targs also have a history of potential blood sacrifice. And Dany does perform a blood sacrifice.

            So, Jon as a “magic” blooded child has precedence in north and south. And if Rhaegar thought he was needed for a ritual—as Dany used blood sacrifice in her ritual—that would fit. Thematically. 

I still favor Arthur as fitting best. But really seems like there's a case to make for other options, too. 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lady Dustin only knows what Ned told her. 

 

4 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't even think Ned told Lady D anything with regards to bringing Lyanna back from Dorne."That" conversation most likely never happened.I think she assumed it that based on what people thought they knew at the time.As we know Ned always just let people draw their own conclusions and go with it.

True--but Ned's dream closely associates Lyanna's death with the fight at the tower in the Red Mountains. 

And closely associates Lyanna's screams, blood, and rose petals with the fight itself. 

So, Ned could have brought Lyanna back from elsewhere, but really seems like it has to be a place/situation closely associated with the men at the tower. 

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