Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

[Sly Wren]

25 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There are a few things that make me think that magic was involved in the tower of joy: Ned destroying the tower, the bones of Lord Dustin being left behind and this part of the dream:  "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."

Something magical (though not necessarily Disney-magical) happens in that fight.

Have you seen @Voice's argument about how the fight itself possibly brought back the Others?

24 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

In stories, people kill themselves when there lover dies.  I think that happened here.    My theory is Rhegar was Ashara's lover and she found out he and Arthur died from Ned at the same time.

This would fit really well with the books and even Arya's quote about the "stupid lady jumping form a tower because her stupid prince was dead."

24 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Lyanna was taken to the tower in Dorne because Rheagar used it with another lover before.

Possible--though Martin gives us a Stark maid taken to a jokingly named tower--Baelish takes Sansa to the "Drearfort." 

And it does become a "tower of joy"--but for him and Lysa--the woman who later dies after falling from a white stone tower.

Sansa the Stolen Stark Maid is there for all of it--but she's NOT the lover or wife or baby mama. She the political leverage and witness to all of the careful plotting.

And we know Rhaegar was a careful plotter.

[finger]

First, Lyanna giving birth at ToJ is a completely different thing than R+L=J. Producing a baby takes nine months and that's a lot of time, she might have toured Dorne if it was her will and the pregnancy obliged. I've often argued that ToJ is an utterly stupid place to hide and, being the Daynes the lords in the area, there are better places for dwelling or birthing, like Starfall or High Ermitage.

I buy into R+L=J, but I do think Ned found Lyanna somewhere else, what leaves the 3 KGs at ToJ just trying to hinder the quest to anyone approaching. It makes sense, it's a good place for an ambush, the question is why. They hadn't raised any troops, they had even sent their squires off, if they had any. They were plainly looking for being killed but they died hard. They must have been buying time. In any event, it would be most striking that there was no one else but Lyanna giving birth. Fever dreams must not be taken at face value.

Otoh, Ashara jumping from a tower might be a metaphore. That tower is over the sea, and she might have set to sea to leave her former life and start a new one. Of course, the body wasn't found.

[Sly Wren]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Would Arthur Dayne be the finest knight that Ned had ever known if he was complicit in taking Lyanna and getting her pregnant; a man of weak character who ignores his vows?

A very fair point. Though the idea that Ned would be neutral towards a married man and crown prince who ran off with/kidnapped/ended up falling for a younger girl. . . that's hard to swallow, too.

I think it really depends on what the circumstances were. We know Ned respects those who protect the helpless, regardless of vows.

Ned breaks from his King, a man he loves as a brother and has sworn allegiance to as Hand. Ned breaks from him publicly, calling him a coward. Over a girl.

If Arthur was Lyanna's protector in some way--As the Hound protects Sansa, and Beric (full of Dayne imagery) protects Arya even though he keeps her for financial leverage, and even Yoren with all of his shortcomings protects Arya--if Arthur was a protector, Ned might indeed think of him as the finest knight.

Even if he and Lyanna succumbed to the lust that produces bastards, according to Ned as he's thinking of Jon.

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This isn't so much as case of Lyanna or Ashara being dishonored as much as it is a stain on the family and the men involved. Rhaegar is acting out the part he thinks he has to play according to a prophecy.  Something that involves the Stark and Dayne bloodlines. 

True--but if he involved Lyanna in all of that--we've been given no evidence that Ned would lend any credence to prophecies. Look at Jon's reaction to prophecies. Ned's neutrality to Rhaegar is still . . .. odd.

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Giving the crown of roses to Lyanna may have been an insult to the Starks but for what reason?

Well, Rhaegar likely called the Tourney as a plot to get rid of Daddy. We know Rhaegar wanted Daddy OFF of the throne and had support from Tywin. Rhaegar was making a serious play for power.

But we know that the Starks, Tullys, Baratheons, and Arryns were unifying. In ways they hadn't done before--the Starks seem to have mostly married Northerners before this. Plotting their own political moves on Rhaegar's turf.

"I know what you are up to. Back off, upstarts!!!" Seems like a possible translation of those roses.

After all, the Bael Tale tells us Bael and the Stark in Winterfell were wroth at each other. Wanted to teach each other a "lesson" about insults. Bael actually pulled the insult/lesson off.

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm referring to the event at the tourney; Rhaegar's percieved insult giving the crown of roses to Lyanna.

There are too many references around Jon the the dawn sword to ignore.

1. Ah! Following you now.

2. AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

At the time of the vision; Elia's son is alive.  So yes this could be interpreted as three heads of the dragon.  I have no sense that Rhaegar knew his firstborn wouldn't survive.

Right--Rhaenys was, too. 

This all may come back to whether or not the prophecy is "real" or just real to the person who engages with it.

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

(To your previous comment: Sweet Sadness in Rhaegar's schtick with all the women; he does play a sad song on his harp).

Very true. Such a harp tease!

But Dany also so closely associates with Rhaegar as she disassociates from Varys and her father. He's the one who matters most to her.

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

"A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."

I think it's possible that when Ned defeated Arthur in a type of trial by combat where the gods decide, along with a son who could wield it; he had a premonition in a fever dream of the eyes of death.  If anyone opened the door to death, it was Dany when MMD calls up the ancient powers; the great wolf and the man limned in flame.   She then opens the door in the HoU; burns it down and who knows what she released into the world.  The ToJ, so named by Rhaegar, could have been the place where Dany was concieved.

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, Rhaegar likely called the Tourney as a plot to get rid of Daddy. We know Rhaegar wanted Daddy OFF of the throne and had support from Tywin. Rhaegar was making a serious play for power.

But we know that the Starks, Tullys, Baratheons, and Arryns were unifying. In ways they hadn't done before--the Starks seem to have mostly married Northerners before this. Plotting their own political moves on Rhaegar's turf.

"I know what you are up to. Back off, upstarts!!!" Seems like a possible translation of those roses.

After all, the Bael Tale tells us Bael and the Stark in Winterfell were wroth at each other. Wanted to teach each other a "lesson" about insults. Bael actually pulled the insult/lesson off.

Yes, I agree this is an acceptable interpretation.  It's still unclear how Lyanna ended up with Rhaegar. It seems that Hoster Tully was not at the tourney and the question is why.  This is a huge event with the King attending; surely attendance was mandatory.  There is the question of Tywin Lannister's involvement in the alliance.  The note that Brandon recieves before his wedding taking him on some unknown errand.  The possibility that Rhaegar was in the area at the same time for some reason. An answer to those questions could lead to a different interpretation for the events at Harrenhal.   But that's another thread.     

[Morrigan's Raven]

Thank you for posting these essays,  @wolfmaid7, and thank you for your time and effort, writers!  It's  always interesting to read how many different theories the story can support. Reading with an open mind, without a "preferred" outcome already decided, inspires deeper understanding and closer study of the text! It's not like there is a prize involved for being right...so I hope that the commentary continues to be positive. All of these writers deserve kudos for their creative interpretations of the text, and for us to read thoughtfully and respond graciously. 

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

A very fair point. Though the idea that Ned would be neutral towards a married man and crown prince who ran off with/kidnapped/ended up falling for a younger girl. . . that's hard to swallow, too.

I think it really depends on what the circumstances were. We know Ned respects those who protect the helpless, regardless of vows.

Ned breaks from his King, a man he loves as a brother and has sworn allegiance to as Hand. Ned breaks from him publicly, calling him a coward. Over a girl.

If Arthur was Lyanna's protector in some way--As the Hound protects Sansa, and Beric (full of Dayne imagery) protects Arya even though he keeps her for financial leverage, and even Yoren with all of his shortcomings protects Arya--if Arthur was a protector, Ned might indeed think of him as the finest knight.

It really does depend on what Lyanna told him and we don't know what she said.  There are some interesting comparison that can be made between Petyr fighting Brandon and Ned fighting Arthur.  Both are outmatched by their opponents; neither will yield; both are nearly killed. There another connection between Hoster Tully asking for forgiveness on his deathbed from Tansy and Lyanna pleading with Ned on her deathbed.  Catelyn realizes that Tansy is her sister and this is related to her first miscarriage.  Catelyn concludes that her father is asking for peace between himself and Lysa before he yields to death.  Yield and make peace; something that Ned and Petyr will not do.  It's Lyanna who makes the peace pact with Ned before she yields.  He agrees to her promises.  His lack of emotion regarding Rhaegar must have something to do with what actually happened; rather than the official story.

And this might have something to do with Brandon's errand and his subsequent rush to KL where Aerys takes him into custody.  He calls out Rhaegar but he isn't there.  Who told him he was there?  Who benefits from removing Brandon and Rickard? For telling the story that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar?  Was Asha at Harrenhal after being dismissed by Elia?  Was Lyanna with her?  Was Rhaegar also summoned to a meeting and what was he told.  Did he take Ashara and Lyanna back to Starfall for their safety?  I think these questions point to Tywin Lannister who's son can longer be his heir and Cersei who was passed over for Rhaegar's wife.  That must have infuriated him.

Again, perhaps not directly related to X+Y=J but a different backstory.  Lyanna leaving with Ashara and Rhaegar precipitating the course of action that Brandon took leading to his death and Lyanna's grief over losing her brother. 

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

This sounds right to me. Although "Howland and Lyanna" could be on the list of possible parents, right? The crannogmen are in the North.

A lot of theories seem to assume that the "bed of blood" is a bed of childbirth. The timelines can change if it is a bed where someone is bleeding for a reason other than childbirth, such as a wound sustained in combat.

I think birthplace matters to GRRM, and that it tells us something about the person. Dany had to have been born on Dragonstone. Robb Stark was actually born at Riverrun, and he was never really Stark-y enough to make a successful King in the North (notice that he was never called King of Winter, which should have been his title, if he truly fit the traditional role). I believe Jon had to have been born in the North.

I know people will hate this, but another variable is that someone else could have been wearing Rhaegar or Robert's armor at the Trident. I think there's something fishy about Robert taking a break from the Rebellion to rest and recover and conceive Bella, but then to suddenly bounce back and finish off his war. The situation with Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor at the Battle of the Blackwater tells us that swapping armor can fool people into making false assumptions. 

What if the King's Guard was really guarding a dying Rhaegar in the Tower of Joy?

"A blood magic ritual" sounds like a reasonable explanation for some of the secrecy at the Tower of Joy. I think we also need to look to other "tower scenes" for hints and parallels. My favorite candidate would be the Queenscrown tower scene with Bran and his companions hiding inside while Jon fights outside. It may be some kind of an allegory for the Tower of Joy scene. I think the Queenscrown scene with Ygritte slitting the throat of the silent old man is supposed to be an echo of the White Witch killing Aslan on the Stone Table, so the rebirth symbolism is already guaranteed, if we use that as a parallel for the Tower of Joy.

I pretty much agree with everything you've posted here save Howland + Lyanna sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g. Howland is from the Neck which, IMO, isn't the North....technically...at least I've never included it. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On 8/24/2016 at 4:12 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

First i want to thank everyone that took part in the project ,and a special thanks to the troopers that furnished us with the essays.

And a big BRAVO to you, @wolfmaid7 - for seeing this project through!  

[JNR]

Well done, Wolfmaid!

[Tucu]

30 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I pretty much agree with everything you've posted here save Howland + Lyanna sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g. Howland is from the Neck which, IMO, isn't the North....technically...at least I've never included it. 

In what sense the Neck is not part of the North?

[JNR]

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lyanna couldn't have both screamed and be so weak/faint as to be barely able to whisper.

It does seem unlikely, but if we assume Lyanna was in the tower, we still don't know how much time went by between Ned's fight with the KG (in which Lyanna was ostensibly screaming) and Ned's memory of Lyanna (in which the fever has robbed her of her strength). 

In the show, of course, there's -- what? Five minutes? -- separating these events at most. 

But the show and the books, as someone once said, aren't the same.  So we don't really know... and if it was multiple days, her physical condition could have declined considerably.

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

In what sense the Neck is not part of the North?

It's the Neck, sooo....yeah.  

[Tucu]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's the Neck, sooo....yeah.  

I am not following. The Barrowlands are The Barrowlands, yet they are still part of The North

[Kingmonkey]

Kudos to Wolfmaid for pulling this whole thing together, it's been quite a ride.

I'm not going to comment on the 2(!) essays I wrote, so on the others:

Mance + Lyanna

The mystery of Jon's parentage is so fundamentally drawn out through AGoT that I honestly find it almost impossible to believe that the build-up in that first book was all essentially for nothing.

The theory rests heavily on the Bale=Mance comparison, which seems uncharacteristically literal for GRRM. Lest we forget,

Quote

"Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.

"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?"

... really sounds like Mance is making it clear he is no Bael. He only sings the songs that better men have made, he doesn't make them. If he'd given Lyanna the old pork longsword, that would sure be making the song. 

Arthur + Lyanna

There's some really nice symbolism at play here, no question. However it's very hard to make sense of the events we know. We must believe that the showdown at the ToJ, a focal point of the first book, was basically pointless, and that Rhaegar was willing to see Westeros and House Targaryen burn for the sake of Cyranoing his buddy Arthur. 

We are left with a very strong sense that the Dayne story has not been completely told, that there is significantly more to come. It's very hard to make sense of how that Dayne reveal could turn out to be this in the context of what we know about Robert's Rebellion. It just seems like we'd have a very different outcome, were Arthur and Lyanna to have been an item. 

Eddard & Wylla

This one makes the least sense to me. We're told this right at the start, yet are time and time again given reason to consider the question of Jon's parentage afterwards. Why bother? This theory essentially proposes that there is simply no secret, yet so much of the text seems to point to there being one. 

I feel this essay draws way too heavily on somewhat dubious readings. For example, the point mentioned in the summary: that Ned is " a terrible liar according to those who know him." This claim from Robert tells us far more about Robert's blindness to what's going on than Ned's ability to dissemble. He may not like lying, but what we actually witness of the interaction of Ned and Robert is Ned continually bending the truth to get Robert to come around to his way of thinking -- and generally being more successful at it than anyone else. 

Howland + Lyanna

Checkov's Crannogman is hidden for some reason, so it makes perfect sense to analyse this possibility in case that's the reason. This is a theory I wanted to be impressed by, but it leaves us too many huge questions. Why, if Howland Reed was Jon's dad, and Howland was there all along, does Ned end up with Jon? Why would Ned cause 14 years of heartache to his wife by claiming Jon as his own when there's no reason for him not to reveal Jon's true parentage? 

There's a big timeline hurdle to overcome for this theory, so we'd want a compelling reason to try leaping that hurdle. Instead we seem to end up with more unanswered questions that we started with.

Robert & Lyanna

 This essay contains an absolutely fascinating look at Harrenhal as a Beltane ritual, and that alone makes this an essay that simply shouldn't be missed.

However there is a fundamental thematic problem with this theory that I've yet to see an answer to. If Robert is the horned King (which he surely is) and Lyanna his designated may queen (which she surely is), then the successful fulfilment of the ritual should have marked the start of spring. As we know, it did not. The result was not a true spring, but a false spring, and "winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance". The return of winter surely indicates that the sacred wedding that brings forth the spring did not take place. There's already a huge difficulty reconciling the timeline with this theory, but on top of that the thematic evidence seems a better argument against the theory than for it. 

[wolfmaid7]

7 hours ago, finger said:

First, Lyanna giving birth at ToJ is a completely different thing than R+L=J. Producing a baby takes nine months and that's a lot of time, she might have toured Dorne if it was her will and the pregnancy obliged. I've often argued that ToJ is an utterly stupid place to hide and, being the Daynes the lords in the area, there are better places for dwelling or birthing, like Starfall or High Ermitage.

 

Your first point could be reiterated enough.I don't believe she was at the toj,but like i said before if she was there and did die there giving birth then for all we know the kgs who weren't at toj for the duration of the war brought her from somewhere and she was already preggers when they picked her up.

The timeline established by most of the fanbase is conceptually irrelevant and wrong.All i have to do is bring up the Fisherman's daughter story.

5 hours ago, Morrigan's Raven said:

Thank you for posting these essays,  @wolfmaid7, and thank you for your time and effort, writers!  It's  always interesting to read how many different theories the story can support. Reading with an open mind, without a "preferred" outcome already decided, inspires deeper understanding and closer study of the text! It's not like there is a prize involved for being right...so I hope that the commentary continues to be positive. All of these writers deserve kudos for their creative interpretations of the text, and for us to read thoughtfully and respond graciously. 

 

Glad to see you MR.

4 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

And a big BRAVO to you, @wolfmaid7 - for seeing this project through!  

Thank you Snowy

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Well done, Wolfmaid!

Thanks JNR.

4 hours ago, JNR said:

It does seem unlikely, but if we assume Lyanna was in the tower, we still don't know how much time went by between Ned's fight with the KG (in which Lyanna was ostensibly screaming) and Ned's memory of Lyanna (in which the fever has robbed her of her strength). 

In the show, of course, there's -- what? Five minutes? -- separating these events at most. 

But the show and the books, as someone once said, aren't the same.  So we don't really know... and if it was multiple days, her physical condition could have declined considerably.

A fact that needs constant reminding.

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

.

Robert & Lyanna

 This essay contains an absolutely fascinating look at Harrenhal as a Beltane ritual, and that alone makes this an essay that simply shouldn't be missed.

However there is a fundamental thematic problem with this theory that I've yet to see an answer to. If Robert is the horned King (which he surely is) and Lyanna his designated may queen (which she surely is), then the successful fulfilment of the ritual should have marked the start of spring. As we know, it did not. The result was not a true spring, but a false spring, and "winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance". The return of winter surely indicates that the sacred wedding that brings forth the spring did not take place. There's already a huge difficulty reconciling the timeline with this theory, but on top of that the thematic evidence seems a better argument against the theory than for it. 

You and i will continue to go back and forth on this, needless to say i disagree.Let's start with the obvious which is- and i've said this before.No one,no character was actively doing a "Great rite/sacred marriage ritual" ,as far as the characters in story were concerned they were all going to a tournament.A tournament that had pagentry,poetry,intrigue,scandal and maybe some plotting.That was there intent at that event.Robert is the horned god because GRRM stamped him that way "he" created a character that is exactly,exactly a representation of the Horned god.He created an event where there are multiple elements of the Great rite  to a tee which indicates strongly that Robert and Lyanna who "he" decided to superimpose these attributes unto in a setting of a great rite had sex.There is no point,absolutely no point putting that in when it would not be needed otherwise unless it followed through.

The connection i've made is an author connection no different than Bran being connected to" Bran under the hill" etc.There are in world rituals i.e. What MMD performed and there are myths that got put into the story as clues to where characters and events are going.This is one of them.Also a bit of a correction on your notion that any ritual at Beltane  is suppose to cause spring to happen.That's not what its about so spring coming or not has nothing to do with it.They did exactly what they were suppose to have done.Spring came and they celebrated with a tournament.Spring comes and we celebrate at that point on the wheel,we have nothing to do with if it comes or not.

The timeline is not a problem and is very malleable.However, lets start with the basic.George has via interviews,his avoidance and the fact that as a test he asked D&D who Jon's mother is has established this as a mystery.Do we all agree with that.

So there's no way Kingmonkey.I'm sorry but this is one of those things i believe "timeliners" are very wrong on. There's no way this is going to be solved with simple arithmatic and playing magical hats between two Kgs and Rhaegar who may or may not have been with Lyanna.

"Jon was born 9 moths after Dany" is not a marker to determine Jon's birthday because:

1.The identity of the woman "hooded and cloaked" is certainly not Rhaella....The language GRRM used and the fact is a dead giveaway.There's no reason to throw in "She was claoked and hooded" GRRM could have just had Jamie said he saw Rhaella ad leave it at that.The fact that he threw in "Cloaked and hooded" is meant is a clue that some of us take to mean that woman was not Rhaella.

2. If this  could be solved with simple math and playing  magical hats between Arthur and Rhaegar /process of elimination.It was never a mystery to begin with.

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

However there is a fundamental thematic problem with this theory that I've yet to see an answer to. If Robert is the horned King (which he surely is) and Lyanna his designated may queen (which she surely is), then the successful fulfilment of the ritual should have marked the start of spring. As we know, it did not. The result was not a true spring, but a false spring, and "winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance". The return of winter surely indicates that the sacred wedding that brings forth the spring did not take place.

Well... Just a thought. What if the ritual at Harrenhal was unsuccessful at the time.  The May queen did not become pregnant at this point to fulfill the ritual resulting in the return of winter.  What if the ritual was only completed some months later when Lyanna DID become pregnant.  We are not given any location for Lyanna between the time of the tournament at HH and the time of her kidnapping.  She was betrothed to Robert and we know that he and Ned went back to the Vale with Jon Arryn.  Do we know for a certainty that Lyanna did not go with them. It would give her the chance to get to know her betrothed better.  Lyanna could very well have been traveling from the Vale to Brandon's wedding at Riverrun when she was taken, and be newly pregnant. Brandon's errand might well have been to meet Lyanna and his father, say at the Inn at the Crossroads in order to escort them to Riverrun. Certainly its a lot of What ifs? but none of it is completely out of the range of possibility.

[wolfmaid7]

48 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Well... Just a thought. What if the ritual at Harrenhal was unsuccessful at the time.  The May queen did not become pregnant at this point to fulfill the ritual resulting in the return of winter.  What if the ritual was only completed some months later when Lyanna DID become pregnant.  We are not given any location for Lyanna between the time of the tournament at HH and the time of her kidnapping.  She was betrothed to Robert and we know that he and Ned went back to the Vale with Jon Arryn.  Do we know for a certainty that Lyanna did not go with them. It would give her the chance to get to know her betrothed better.  Lyanna could very well have been traveling from the Vale to Brandon's wedding at Riverrun when she was taken, and be newly pregnant. Brandon's errand might well have been to meet Lyanna and his father, say at the Inn at the Crossroads in order to escort them to Riverrun. Certainly its a lot of What ifs? but none of it is completely out of the range of possibility.

I'm still trying to figure out what ritual KM is talking about.Who was doing a ritual at Harrenhall?And i mean in the context of the story.The characters were just going about their buisness.Spring was coming and going no matter what happened or didn't happen at Harrenhall.A baby being conceived there wasn't going to stop that.

The seasonality have nothing to do with certain babies being concieved.The greenseers imo have alot to do with the issues with the seasons.They definitely the solution and Jon won't be able to help do anything about that until he sits a throne like Bran.

And again the timeline isn't a issue because Dany wasn't born 9mths after the figure Jamie saw left Kingslanding.

[Lady Dyanna]

17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm still trying to figure out what ritual KM is talking about.Who was doing a ritual at Harrenhall?And i mean in the context of the story.The characters were just going about their buisness.Spring was coming and going no matter what happened or didn't happen at Harrenhall.A baby being conceived there wasn't going to stop that.

The seasonality have nothing to do with certain babies being concieved.The greenseers imo have alot to do with the issues with the seasons.They definitely the solution and Jon won't be able to help do anything about that until he sits a throne like Bran.

No. I agree. No one is knowingly performing a ritual at HH, but, I think what KM is saying is that if it's symbolic of a Beltane ritual where are the symbolic results. Why didn't the cycle continue as would be anticipated? 

17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

And again the timeline isn't a issue because Dany wasn't born 9mths after the figure Jamie saw left Kingslanding.

I do agree that there is definitely reason to doubt the accuracy of what is believed to be the date of Dany's birth. I was thinking that a delayed conception date might make the timeline a bit more plausible all around. 

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

No. I agree. No one is knowingly performing a ritual at HH, but, I think what KM is saying is that if it's symbolic of a Beltane ritual where are the symbolic results. Why didn't the cycle continue as would be anticipated? 

This is the closes that we have in ASOIAF to a Belthane ritual/ May Day festival:

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

Do we know of any act during the False Spring that could have stopped the rebirth of Garth?