Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

[Sly Wren]

On August 25, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Mance + Lyanna

The mystery of Jon's parentage is so fundamentally drawn out through AGoT that I honestly find it almost impossible to believe that the build-up in that first book was all essentially for nothing.

The theory rests heavily on the Bale=Mance comparison, which seems uncharacteristically literal for GRRM. Lest we forget,

... really sounds like Mance is making it clear he is no Bael. He only sings the songs that better men have made, he doesn't make them. If he'd given Lyanna the old pork longsword, that would sure be making the song.

Agreed--both of the current Bael figures in the novels--Mance and Baelish--get involved with and use Stark "maids," but so far, they both vary how they engage with the Stark Maid in question compared to the original Bael Tale. 

Seems like the Bael Tale in Lyanna's case might also have been varied.

On August 25, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Arthur + Lyanna

There's some really nice symbolism at play here, no question. However it's very hard to make sense of the events we know. We must believe that the showdown at the ToJ, a focal point of the first book, was basically pointless

Or, that we don't yet know the point? The fight itself is symbolically connected to the Others--blue as the eyes of death. As I yammered about above--that's the only time that phrase gets used in the books. ONLY as the fight begins. 

This is the moment when the Stark in Winterfell kills the Sword of the Morning--both ancient, ancient offices tied to the Long Night. And the Others are now free to rise. I think.

As for the "narrative" sense of their being in Dorne--if they are guarding Rhaegar's pregnant mistress/wife who isn't Lyanna (say, Ashara)--then their fighting isn't pointless at all. Either in the moment of the fight nor in the symbolism and thematic needs of the story.

On August 25, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Kingmonkey said:

and that Rhaegar was willing to see Westeros and House Targaryen burn for the sake of Cyranoing his buddy Arthur. 

Amen. I agree with @superunknown5 on a lot, but I can't buy the Cyrano scenario. If Rhaegar sat out the war for this reason he deserved that hammer to the chest and it doesn't fit what we've been told of him.

If Rhaegar was willing to do this just to be with his honey--same thing.

But we know Rhaegar wanted Aerys off of the throne. If he sat out the war until the opportune moment for that.  . . that would fit.

And if Lyanna did what her nieces did and ended up with Rhaegar and Co. after running from trouble, that would fit the symbolic and thematic evidence we've been given so far.

Though that scenario could fit if either Rhaegar or Arthur was the father of Lyanna's child.

On August 25, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Kingmonkey said:

We are left with a very strong sense that the Dayne story has not been completely told, that there is significantly more to come. It's very hard to make sense of how that Dayne reveal could turn out to be this in the context of what we know about Robert's Rebellion. It just seems like we'd have a very different outcome, were Arthur and Lyanna to have been an item. 

If my sketchy scenario laid out above were to hold, would you still say it the current story should have had a different outcome for ALJ?

The Brotherhood without Banners (complete with Beric who is full of Arthur Dayne imagery) hold onto a Stark maid--to protect her and to get money for her. But Arya is not their primary mission, even in the moment when they declare their loyalty to their dead King's mission. If Lyanna were in a similar situation--that would fit thematically, no? The KG at the tower would have a different mission, is all. Not "Stark Maid" oriented.

[Sly Wren]

On August 26, 2016 at 9:56 PM, Frey family reunion said:

It occurred to me that this could be a sly allusion to a wedding.  Where Eddard gives away the bride to the groom, and the groom takes the bride's hand from the one giving her away.

I like it.

Though given that Ned still seems to love Robert for loving Lyanna--seems like he may not see himself as having "given" Lyanna to Howland. . . 

[Sly Wren]

9 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

                                                                         WHO DONE IT BETTER

TEST 1.

So here we go people, Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love with eachother.Let's have the proof or better yet the foundation for that belief and line it up against the other proponents belief of love.

The only man we know Lyanna cared for is Robert--you've set that up well.

And we have Ned tell us that Robert loved Lyanna.

But we also have Ned think of blue roses and want to weep when he hears that Robert's love for Lyanna ruined Cersei's wedding night. 

Which sound like the love story ended up not. . . playing out. Somehow.

As for others Lyanna may or may not have loved--Martin gives hints at best.

For Rhaegar--the giving of the roses as a love gesture is heavily belied by the Bael Tale. And all other accounts of love are second hand.

For Arthur, we have Jon wondering if he's doing what his father did: Jon, breaking his sworn vows to a brotherhood for a wild northern girl.

But, who Lyanna loved originally may not have been who she ended up with --bastards born of lust, etc. So, not sure this test will end up being conclusive until we get more data. . . . 

[J. Stargaryen]

@Sly Wren

How could Ned have been the Stark in Winterfell while he was in Dorne?

[Sly Wren]

3 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

@Sly Wren

How could Ned have been the Stark in Winterfell while he was in Dorne?

An excellent point. The Stark in Winterfell belongs in Winterfell. Ned was the head of the house after Brandon and Rickard's deaths. He was supposed to be in Winterfell. Instead he went south--not just leaving Winterfell, but putting himself in the service of a non-Stark, non-Northerner, non-first man. He was not where he was supposed to be. And not serving whom he should serve.

Given the phrase "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and those crypts--really seems like "The Stark in Winterfell" is more than just a place holding. "The Stark" needs to be in Winterfell.

A mistake Rickard seems to have started. And Ned didn't learn from--he came south in service to a Southron king a second time. And disaster ensued. The Stark should have stayed in Winterfell.

Plus, Arthur the Sword of the Morning--sworn in service to the dragons and the parvenue, interloping Targaryen kings--not first men. Not doing. . . whatever the Sword of the Morning is supposed to do (we need more data on that).

So, seems like neither Sword of the Morning nor the Starks of Winterfell were where they belonged. And "blue as the eyes of death" ensued as Ned fought and killed the Sword of the Morning.

[J. Stargaryen]

7 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

An excellent point. The Stark in Winterfell belongs in Winterfell. Ned was the head of the house after Brandon and Rickard's deaths. He was supposed to be in Winterfell. Instead he went south--not just leaving Winterfell, but putting himself in the service of a non-Stark, non-Northerner, non-first man. He was not where he was supposed to be. And not serving whom he should serve.

Given the phrase "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and those crypts--really seems like "The Stark in Winterfell" is more than just a place holding. "The Stark" needs to be in Winterfell.

A mistake Rickard seems to have started. And Ned didn't learn from--he came south in service to a Southron king a second time. And disaster ensued. The Stark should have stayed in Winterfell.

Plus, Arthur the Sword of the Morning--sworn in service to the dragons and the parvenue, interloping Targaryen kings--not first men. Not doing. . . whatever the Sword of the Morning is supposed to do (we need more data on that).

So, seems like neither Sword of the Morning nor the Starks of Winterfell were where they belonged. And "blue as the eyes of death" ensued as Ned fought and killed the Sword of the Morning.

Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the war. It seems to me like you're trying to argue the Lord Stark ("The Stark") is supposed to stay in Winterfell. That seems like a stretch. There have been plenty of times where the Lord Stark left Winterfell. And besides, Catelyn tells us that "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Unless I'm forgetting something, no one tells us that the Stark (the lord) must remain there.

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Yes, the link between the KG and Lyanna is only on his dreams. We know that he pulled the tower down, but not what he found there.

If there was anything to find at all.

 

 

[Sly Wren]

25 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the war. It seems to me like you're trying to argue the Lord Stark ("The Stark") is supposed to stay in Winterfell. That seems like a stretch.

And Benjen's wasn't enough to stave off the disaster of the Starks leaving Winterfell. Any more than Robb's being the Stark in Winterfell prevented the disaster of Ned's leaving Winterfell and all that ensued as a result. Starks belong in Winterfell.

25 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

There have been plenty of times where the Lord Stark left Winterfell.

I agree that it isn't just "leaving" Winterfell. It's also the purpose of said leaving--Ned put himself in service to another king. Vs. the role the Starks play in keeping Winterfell and that crypt. All the Starks collected in that crypt--they aren't supposed to "leave" Winterfell for southron ambitions and other kings. They "serve" in the north and then reside in the "frozen hell reserved for Starks." 

So, Ned perhaps not as "the" Stark in Winterfell, but "a Stark of Winterfell" who was not where he should have been. And ended up in a fight he should not have had--and only then do we get the phrase "blue as the eyes of death"--at the moment of the fight.

25 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

And besides, Catelyn tells us that "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Unless I'm forgetting something, no one tells us that the Stark (the lord) must remain there.

Well, how well does Cat really know what that phrase might originally have signified? Plus, Ned seems to have forgotten a few things himself. 

Given how leaving Winterfell for the south--especially in service of non-Northerners or for southron ambitions--has worked out for the Starks, seems like there's a good chance the phrase "there must always me a Stark in Winterfell" and the significance of them all coming back to the crypt--seems like there's a good chance those things have a lot more meaning than we currently know.

One way or another, that fight seems connected to the Others. Not the finding of Lyanna--the fight itself. Where Ned killed Arthur--the last thing he sees before the fight starts.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Symbolism Ygrain,symbolism that merits removing the distraction and looking at the scene and the symbols.Foot long anthler (phallic symbol) in her.Read the scene and not the mechanics,that is the point.

Wolfmaid, every stabbing has a potential sexual symbolism but not every stabbing's symbolic potential is activated. When showinventionTalissa got stabbed, there was no sexual symbolism in it, either, even though weapons that can be sheathed are pretty much prone to such symbolism.

Besides, the non-impregnated by the stag part cannot be taken away from the scene, especially if you want to see some connection between the stabbing and the whelping. 

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yessss Rhaegar got hit in the chest with Robert's war hammer and?I think we know that,its historical fact in story.

You wanted some connection between a stag causing the death of a pregnant she-direwolf. So I provided you with a hypothesis.

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It depends on what aspect of the myth is present and what isn't.One could tell what's missing and what's there.So it's not a matter of having things both ways.Additionally,what's the point of having it,and having in be a continuing theme throughout the story and Jon's arch with him being an extention of it when its not neccessary. In other words,there's not point to having this myth,as much as it is enmeshed and stop short of them actually doing the deed when everything else is there.

Cherrypicking here. You can't insist that XY must be there only because it fits your theory. 

Plus, GRRM is not really pursuing this mythical archetype, he is too busy with his own plot as well as dozens of other influences.

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What are you going on about,the imprtant aspect of the myth is present that is the point.It absolutely reaching and fishing to bring in something like " In the original myth does it talk of the horned god being cuckhold" I mean come on Ygrain.You are not seriously asserting that the humaizing of Robert an him as a character in the story should be excluded? That's nonsense.He is following the myth and it must make sense in the context of the story he is also telling.

Gods being cheaters/cheated on is a big deal. Robert has plenty of human faults even without him being cuckolded, so don't equal that particular one with giving him a human dimension.

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Robert saying " Rhaegar has Lyanna now" Is speaking in terms of they are both dead,else Robert on his deathbed wouldn't tell Ned "I will give Lyanna your love" Indicating he expected to be reunited with her.

As for Robert never having Lyanna:

“The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be.”

 

Not mine as she was meant to be.Mine AGAIN.

Sure. If someone is your betrothed or your GF, they are yours. 

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I would like the evidence without the noise.There's a lot of talk in there that has nothing to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna.Other people that could be a parallel for any prospect.I am speaking of thing unique to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Anyone can pull parallels and say there you go.No one wants to see Jorah and his no good wife.

It is really not my problem that you fail to see the similarity in Rhaegar's and Jorah's "inspiration" at the tourney.

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What you did is neither a parallel or a contrast because there's nothing to start from that's solid or its in dispute.And/or you gave information that is from a source that that doesn't and couldn't know what the hell they were talking about. I.e. Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips.

Put the basics,the tangible the things that can't be disputed or is hard to dispute,or that's a foundation directly related to Rhaegar and Lyanna on here. That's what alot of us want to see.

So can you please put Rhaegar and Lyanna on paper for me.Or is as you said in your linked post:

"I will not go over the reasoning pointing to the existence of romance between R+L as it is basically the staple of the R+L threads, and focus on filling in the whats, hows and whys."

We don't want any fillers,just give us the staple you are talking about.

Unless you suffer from a multiple personality disorder, don't speak in plural. And it was the best I could give you at almost midnight.

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

How do we account for the fact that only two people walked away from the ToJ and that Ned and Howland tore down the tower to build all those cairns?  If baby Jon was in the tower; shouldn't there be 3 people walking away or are we going to quibble over who could walk on two legs?  How long does it take to tear down a tower and get to Starfall carrying Lyanna's body?  Who is nursing the babe? 

It never says three people. The book says two out of seven against three, and the question that GRRM asked specified men. Hence, any number of women, babies, goats...

Also, the original version is rode away, not walked.

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Is that really what the SSM means because we already know from the book who survived the fight.  I think the question was pointedly not about who walked away from the fight but how many people in total were actually there.  As far as the HBO version; the fact that they only included 2 kingsguard is a big red flag saying that the book version of the ToJ will not be the same as the show.  The show version is based on the RLJ fan theory only.  Woe to D&D if they didn't give the fans the outcome they wanted.

It is indeed different because Lyanna was most likely screaming only in Ned's dream, and that part of the dream was prompted by Vayon Poole's attempts to wake Ned. Screaming in labour is not in the books at all.

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Yes, the link between the KG and Lyanna is only on his dreams. We know that he pulled the tower down, but not what he found there.

The dream contains roses, blood and Lyanna in her bed of blood, and prompts "promise me". Ned's first memory of Lyanna's death has roses, blood and "promise me". Another later memory has Lyanna in her bed of blood and "promise me". The link is there.

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

The only man we know Lyanna cared for is Robert--you've set that up well.

And we have Ned tell us that Robert loved Lyanna.

But we also have Ned think of blue roses and want to weep when he hears that Robert's love for Lyanna ruined Cersei's wedding night. 

Which sound like the love story ended up not. . . playing out. Somehow.

As for others Lyanna may or may not have loved--Martin gives hints at best.

For Rhaegar--the giving of the roses as a love gesture is heavily belied by the Bael Tale. And all other accounts of love are second hand.

For Arthur, we have Jon wondering if he's doing what his father did: Jon, breaking his sworn vows to a brotherhood for a wild northern girl.

But, who Lyanna loved originally may not have been who she ended up with --bastards born of lust, etc. So, not sure this test will end up being conclusive until we get more data. . . . 

Personally, I completely fail to see that any evidence has been provided to show that Lyanna cared for Robert.  She was betrothed to him by her father but that doesn't make it a mutual romance. The only comment we get in her own words suggests that she doesn't think much of Robert and that she doesn't seem to be thrilled with the betrothal. The only time we see them in the same place in the text, Lyanna is sniffling over another man's song while Robert is engaged in a drinking contest with one of his mates and boasting about unmasking the KOLT, completely oblivious to the fact that it's probably Lyanna herself. Maybe I'm old school, but they don't seem like a couple that is communicating at all, never mind about to slip away to have sex.

There is also no satisfactory explanation why Lyanna wouldn't tell Robert that she's pregnant - despite supposedly caring for him and actually being betrothed to him or why she would apparently let Rhaegar take the rap as a rapist and kidnapper, not to mention civil war breaking out, just to avoid anyone knowing that she and Robert pre-empted the wedding.

Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon Snow's parents makes sense of the fact that everyone believes Jon to have been conceived after Ned and Cat's marriage and to be around the same age as Robb. It doesn't rely on everyone at Winterfell being too dumb to live or having the most selective blindness in the history of Planetos, so that they can't tell that Jon is up to a year older than he should be. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon's parents makes sense of the absolute secrecy Ned enforces regarding Jon's mother; why he thinks about some secrets being too dangerous to share even with those he loves and trusts; why he is so haunted by the murders of Elia and Rhaegar's children and the way Robert turned away from them in the throne room; why he so clearly lies to Robert about Jon's parentage.

Robert has a gazillion bastards already. What would be the in-story point of Jon being another one, not to mention the only one that doesn't look like Robert? 

 

 

 

 

[J. Stargaryen]

1 minute ago, Sly Wren said:

snip

You've gone from "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell," to the Lord/King Stark isn't supposed to leave the North. And also fight the SotM when he does. If you want to argue that the ToJ fight is connected to the return of the Others, fine. But Ned wasn't the Stark in Winterfell at that time.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Wolfmaid, every stabbing has a potential sexual symbolism but not every stabbing's symbolic potential is activated. When showinventionTalissa got stabbed, there was no sexual symbolism in it, either, even though weapons that can be sheathed are pretty much prone to such symbolism.

Besides, the non-impregnated by the stag part cannot be taken away from the scene, especially if you want to see some connection between the stabbing and the whelping. 

You wanted some connection between a stag causing the death of a pregnant she-direwolf. So I provided you with a hypothesis.

Cherrypicking here. You can't insist that XY must be there only because it fits your theory. 

Plus, GRRM is not really pursuing this mythical archetype, he is too busy with his own plot as well as dozens of other influences.

Gods being cheaters/cheated on is a big deal. Robert has plenty of human faults even without him being cuckolded, so don't equal that particular one with giving him a human dimension.

Sure. If someone is your betrothed or your GF, they are yours. 

It is really not my problem that you fail to see the similarity in Rhaegar's and Jorah's "inspiration" at the tourney.

Unless you suffer from a multiple personality disorder, don't speak in plural. And it was the best I could give you at almost midnight.

It never says three people. The book says two out of seven against three, and the question that GRRM asked specified men. Hence, any number of women, babies, goats...

Also, the original version is rode away, not walked.

It is indeed different because Lyanna was most likely screaming only in Ned's dream, and that part of the dream was prompted by Vayon Poole's attempts to wake Ned. Screaming in labour is not in the books at all.

The dream contains roses, blood and Lyanna in her bed of blood, and prompts "promise me". Ned's first memory of Lyanna's death has roses, blood and "promise me". Another later memory has Lyanna in her bed of blood and "promise me". The link is there.

Ygrian i have no idea what you are going on about, and why its important if Cersie cheated on Robert .Robert is not a god.This whole line of thinking your engaging me in is taxing,pointless and just being difficult.

Still waiting for the "staple of the RLJ thread" that shows this romance between Rhaegar and Lyanna.Bring out the proof of this and we can get going.

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

Personally, I completely fail to see that any evidence has been provided to show that Lyanna cared for Robert.  She was betrothed to him by her father but that doesn't make it a mutual romance. The only comment we get in her own words suggests that she doesn't think much of Robert and that she doesn't seem to be thrilled with the betrothal. The only time we see them in the same place in the text, Lyanna is sniffling over another man's song while Robert is engaged in a drinking contest with one of his mates and boasting about unmasking the KOLT, completely oblivious to the fact that it's probably Lyanna herself. Maybe I'm old school, but they don't seem like a couple that is communicating at all, never mind about to slip away to have sex.

There is also no satisfactory explanation why Lyanna wouldn't tell Robert that she's pregnant - despite supposedly caring for him and actually being betrothed to him or why she would apparently let Rhaegar take the rap as a rapist and kidnapper, not to mention civil war breaking out, just to avoid anyone knowing that she and Robert pre-empted the wedding.

Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon Snow's parents makes sense of the fact that everyone believes Jon to have been conceived after Ned and Cat's marriage and to be around the same age as Robb. It doesn't rely on everyone at Winterfell being too dumb to live or having the most selective blindness in the history of Planetos, so that they can't tell that Jon is up to a year older than he should be. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon's parents makes sense of the absolute secrecy Ned enforces regarding Jon's mother; why he thinks about some secrets being too dangerous to share even with those he loves and trusts; why he is so haunted by the murders of Elia and Rhaegar's children and the way Robert turned away from them in the throne room; why he so clearly lies to Robert about Jon's parentage.

Robert has a gazillion bastards already. What would be the in-story point of Jon being another one, not to mention the only one that doesn't look like Robert? 

 

 

 

 

Based on the emotional evidence displayed by Robert and the information given by Ned especially they did have an intimate relationship.Unless,both Robert and ned were delusional.That "comment" you are speaking of does nothing of a sort.Whate it does relay is Lyanna being concerned about Robert keeoing to her bed only.That's it.She could have said at any point in that conversation with Ned.

"I don't to marry Robert,talk to father" yada yada yada,just as Dany had said with Khal Drogo,or Brandon had told Lady B about Cat etc.

Lyanna says absolutly nothing about hating Rober,not liking Robert,not being fond of Robert. Or not being thrilled by the match. Her reaction and statement indicates doubt that regardless of love,hers or his it don't matter he would stray.

It was a conversation that took place the night Lyanna found out about the match,time passed in between.Time for them to spend time together and they did.For a relationship to form which it did.

Like i said to @Ygrain,if you have anything regarding a relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna lets line it up.Put it on the table.If you want to say nothing between Robert and Lyanna existed and you are sure of any kind of love between Rhaegar and Lyanna i'm all for looking at this arguement.

Let's start with that first before we go into why Lyanna didn't,couldn't or wouldn't tell Robert she was pregnant.

You @Wall Flower believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love then lets start with that tangible.All the other stuff more or less details we can talk about later on.

For now there's an assertion that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other and there was this romance. I am saying the same thing of Robert and Lyanna.

But you all are the varsity team so lets see this.Every argument that you all have made in supprot of Rhaegar + Lyanna =J  we will use as the base.This according to @Ygrain is "the staple"  of this theory.I'm not asking for anything unreasonable.

 

ETA: According to JonCon Rhaegar singing made every woman cry.He' s Ringo doesn't mean every woman want to drop there draws when he dropped his tunes.

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The only man we know Lyanna cared for is Robert--you've set that up well.

And we have Ned tell us that Robert loved Lyanna.

But we also have Ned think of blue roses and want to weep when he hears that Robert's love for Lyanna ruined Cersei's wedding night. 

Which sound like the love story ended up not. . . playing out. Somehow.

As for others Lyanna may or may not have loved--Martin gives hints at best.

For Rhaegar--the giving of the roses as a love gesture is heavily belied by the Bael Tale. And all other accounts of love are second hand.

For Arthur, we have Jon wondering if he's doing what his father did: Jon, breaking his sworn vows to a brotherhood for a wild northern girl.

But, who Lyanna loved originally may not have been who she ended up with --bastards born of lust, etc. So, not sure this test will end up being conclusive until we get more data. . . . 

Agreed  not a happy ending and that one incident along with what Cersie said in her POV about Robert when he had the drink in him lays the foundation that this could have happened with Lyanna. Robert having sex with Cersie Lyanna is what made instantly think of blue roses and wanting to weep.

The red bolded could be for any prospect to be honest.

I don't see the latter as contridicting considering the social expectations.The sacred nature of the marriage bed and the children born or not born from it is very much a theme.But as we have seen in this series that isn't always the case.

Interesting thing about superimposing Arya and Sansa's experiance unto Lyanna.It isn't really echoing we can't in all honesty that what happened to Arya and Sansa must have happened to Lyanna. She may not have been missing at all.

 

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I don't know if you've seen @Voice's argument on this, but he postulates that when the Stark in Winterfell (ancient office) killed the Sword of the Morning (ancient office), that's what let the Others return--blue as the eyes of death.

The blood red sky and a storm of rose petals - red sky in the morning (dawn), take warning, storm of rose petals a euphemism for war, (as in storm or swords).  I like the idea of ancient offices. Catelyn descibes it as passing the cup from Brandon to Ned when they discuss Robert's offer to be the Hand. Ned is bitter saying that everything was meant for Brandon. but he must now drink from that cup.  So the cup passes from one office holder to another upon their death whether they are male or female.  The last Stark in Winterfell being Bran jr.  With Arthur's death, there is no Dayne at Starfall to hold the sword, unless Jon is the heir also removed from his place, to the Wall.

I've wondered if the ToJ is an ancient watchtower associated with House Dayne.  Something more akin to the broken watchtowers or castles at the Wall.  The most advanced southern watchtower in a line of defense. An outlier.  Symbolically, Ned and Howland tear it down to build cairns.  Arthur's watch is ended passing the cup to Jon. "Now it ends.... now it begins."

[J. Stargaryen]

@wolfmaid7

Since your RB+L=J essay was first posted at TLH, how many people would you say have been persuaded by your theory that Robert and Lyanna are Jon's parents?

[Tucu]

Are there any essays/theories on the possiblity of a stillborn? Ned associates the tower with death, never life and a lot of the half-targ children died at birth. "Bed of blood" is only used 3 times in the books. Two are on Ned's dreams about Lyanna; the last one is this Aeron quote about short-lived children:

Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain  

 

[Ygrain]

Wolfmaid, I am not your lapdog. In case it escaped you, I am a different time zone and happen to have a life outside the net. I can write down the "staples" in a couple of days or so if no-one else steps in meanwhile, but quit acting as if I was avoiding the answer when I stated plainly right in the first response that Real Life is currently making demands on me that need to be adressed first.

I am quite surprised that with your profound knowledge of mythology, you cannot grasp the significance of Robert being cuckolded (and Cersei devouring his "progeny"), but if you feel like needing further education, I am sure that you can find enough sources on your own.

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

Are there any essays/theories on the possiblity of a stillborn? Ned associates the tower with death, never life and a lot of the half-targ children died at birth. "Bed of blood" is only used 3 times in the books. Two are on Ned's dreams about Lyanna; the last one is this Aeron quote about short-lived children:

Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain  

I see your point, but what would be the narrative point of a stillbirth? Of the secrecy?

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I see your point, but what would be the narrative point of a stillbirth? Of the secrecy?

The narrative is not complete. Why does Ned only have sad and bitter memories? What did they find that warranted pulling down the tower? Why is Howland (the guy that visited the magical Isles of Faces) in all parts of that tale? Just as a witness?

If you search Ned's chapters, he almost never thinks about Jon. When Robert mentions him, he thinks of lost honour; when Cersei mentions him he has no reaction; when Varys mentions him, Ned just thinks of shame and sorrow. I could never explain Ned's shame if he was just protecting her sister's son.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the war. It seems to me like you're trying to argue the Lord Stark ("The Stark") is supposed to stay in Winterfell. That seems like a stretch. There have been plenty of times where the Lord Stark left Winterfell. And besides, Catelyn tells us that "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Unless I'm forgetting something, no one tells us that the Stark (the lord) must remain there.

I'm inclined to agree and that the stipulation or whatever it is shouldn't necessarily be so narrowly defined. It appears to be akin to the Musgrave Ritual. Its passed down from father to son for so long that no-one now remembers what it really means of why. On one level, clearly the current generations of Starks believe someone needs to be in residence. As you say Benjen was left in charge of the keys when Lord Eddard went off to the rebellion, then Robb Stark, when Eddard went to King's landing. He in turn left Bran to serve as Stark in Winterfell when he went south to avenge Ned and win himself a kingdom.

By that measure its only when Bran was captured by Theon and then fled north that there was no longer a Stark Lord in or of Winterfell.

GRRM likes to tell us of his fondness for layered meanings, so if it goes beyond this, why must there always be a Stark in Winterfell?

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The narrative is not complete. Why does Ned only have sad and bitter memories? What did they find that warranted pulling down the tower? Why is Howland (the guy that visited the magical Isles of Faces) in all parts of that tale? Just as a witness?

If you search Ned's chapters, he almost never thinks about Jon. When Robert mentions him, he thinks of lost honour; when Cersei mentions him he has no reaction; when Varys mentions him, Ned just thinks of shame and sorrow. I could never explain Ned's shame if he was just protecting her sister's son.

I've wondered about Howland's presence as well.  Is it possible he became Ned's squire after the Tourney? I'm reminded of Podrick saving Tyrion's life at the Battle of the Blackwater.

I think Ned's narrative has an overriding theme of the pledge to protect. Something that he discusses with Robert concerning Robin Arryn. He makes the odd statement that he would rather entrust a child to a pit viper than Tywin Lannister.  It is when he starts searching the mystery of Robert's bastards that the promises he made to Lyanna come back to haunt him.  Finally, there is the sense that he failed to protect the children or uphold his pledge.