Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, WeaselPie said:

Yet he doesn't ask about her.  It defies logic.   Which oddly parallels Brandon never asking about her when he storms into KL and demands that Rhaegar come out and die.

No, it doesn't defy logic. First, this dialogue may be from Ned's thoughts concerning problems from the encounter that he still worries and dreams about many years later. In other words it doesn't have to reflect any real conversation that took place, but it does reflect the encounter as Ned tries to deal with it. It is obvious that even if Ned is remembering the conversation as it took place, that he is trying to understand why he finds the Kingsguard here. He expected to find them in the places dream Ned enumerates - the Trident, King's Landing, Storm's End, or Dragonstone. If the answers are supplied by Ned's dreaming mind, then they are what Ned expected the men to say. If the conversation takes place as he dreams it, then while it reflects the reality we know from other parts of the text - the chronology of events, etc. - it also shows that this is the part of the encounter that still haunts his dreams. Why were these men there?

The shock of his sister's death is in his remembrance of her screaming his name. He associates her death with this place, but it is where he expects to find her. Which is extremely logical, because he his almost certainly riding with his most trusted vassels to the place he was told to find her.

2 hours ago, WeaselPie said:

No.  We don't know that.

Ahh ... I'm sorry. You are right in that "we" doesn't include some few who don't acknowledge this simple fact.

Quote

At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy. (A World of Ice and Fire app, Lyanna Stark entry)

One can't get any clearer than that.

For most of us, the dream description of the battle at the tower, the scream of Lyanna, the location of the Tower of Joy in the maps in ADwD, the entry in A Game of Thrones appendix under Lyanna's name, coupled with the entry above solved this question a long time ago. For some unknown reason some readers who desperately want to find an alternative to R+L=J have seized on this idea that Lyanna died elsewhere to sow doubt on the R+L=J idea. The last part of that is something I have sympathy for, because contrary to popular belief, there are still alternatives to R+L=J that remain possible. The part of trying to use crackpot ideas of where Lyanna died to do it, I have absolutely no sympathy with. It's, in my not so humble opinion, just damn silly. Sorry, about that WeaselPie, I shouldn't have used the word "we."

[J. Stargaryen]

48 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

JStar are you going to put up the evidence for Lyanna and Rhaegar being in love or aren't you?Using how many people believe or don't believe in a theory to somehow gauge its validity is not something that's going to affect it being right,wrong or ridiculous.I don't care how many people buy it,its crystal clear with the statements of " That fat,drunk could never be Jon's father." Or "He was a womanizer and a drunk and Lyanna could have never love him"  what kind of prospect Robert would be no matter the proof.I've heard it all and I DO NOT CARE.What i care about is matching point for point the evidence.Starting with the claims of love which has been asserted by @Ygrain and many others as the "staple of RLJ" or its foundation.

So i want to start with that ,i want to compare and contrast the evidence that makes RLJ the truth with the other prospects evidence.Lets dispel with the games,the word throwing back and forth,character assinations,sweeping generalizations  etc.

Line up for us the evidence of what makes you and others believe Lyanna and Robert were in love.When we are done with that rounds we can move on.It should be noted,i am using what you all have touted as proof to weigh this.

I await evidence of this by anyone in your camp who has the time to post it.Thanks

I'm not talking about any of that. I'm wondering what you make of the fact that so few people were persuaded by your theory. Even those who are extremely open to the possibility that R+L=/=J.

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm not saying the lack of support for your theory proves that it's wrong.

[JNR]

11 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Quote

At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy. (A World of Ice and Fire app, Lyanna Stark entry)

One can't get any clearer than that.

That's true.  What Weasel means (I think) is that the app is not canonical. 

It's simply not "canon" as GRRM has explicitly defined it (meaning the five novels plus Dunk and Egg stories, or sometimes he gets even narrower: "Only the books are canon").  And he certainly didn't write the app.

If anyone knows of any SSM, LiveJournal entry, or any other verifiable source in which GRRM has redefined canon to include the app, now would be the time to say so.  

If the app is canon, of course, that would instantly transform all the many errors in the app (eg. Melisandre's place of origin being Asshai) into canonical reality.  I wonder if GRRM would be happy with that; he seems to prefer the idea that he himself is the only possible source of canon, as opposed to his fans.

The ToJ was also listed as Lyanna's place of death in a family tree given to Ran many years ago... but that same family tree cites Ned as Jon's father.  So we can believe the content of this family tree was 100% objective reality, and therefore accept with conclusive finality that Ned is Jon's father.  Or we can believe that the family tree was not 100% objective reality, whichever we think best.

Personally, I think there's a good chance Lyanna was at the tower... but Ned's dream is the alpha and omega of that subject from a canonical standpoint. 

That the dream is old is no help in assessing its accuracy.  Ned's unconscious mind has, as we know from the fact that the dream is a recurring one, repeatedly combined various elements (Lyanna, bed of blood, a blood-streaked sky, the tower, the Kingsguard, a storm of rose petals) in the same surrealistic way more than once.  

So it remains merely an old dream that GRRM has stated explicitly in an SSM may not have been literal, and it's hard to see how a thing like that can definitively establish Lyanna as having been at the ToJ.

[LynnS]

So right now there is a straight forward explanation for the events at the ToJ:

1)  The ToJ is an old watchtower in a ruined state rather than a place fit for living.  This would explain why Ned and Howland can tear it down themselves.

2)  The 3 kingsguard are in charge of Viserys' Dornish army.

3)  Ned challenges the kingsguard to a Trial of Seven under Dornish Law.  Recalling that Doran Martell considers a trial by combat a legal and valid judgement.  He never asks about Lyanna.

4) Arthur Dayne tells Ned where to find Lyanna before he dies.  His fever dream conflates the two events.

5) The World Book written by Maester Yandel for Tommen Baratheon contains errors of fact and misinformation.

6)  All this says is that Ned found Lyanna somewhere else and nothing about  RLJ.

Westeros Wiki:

The trial of seven is a form of trial by combat an offended party can demand during trial. It is linked to the Faith of the Seven and Andal tradition.

The Andals believed that if seven champions fought on each side, the gods thus honored would be more likely to see justice done. If a man cannot find six others to stand with him, then he is obviously guilty.^[1]

In 42 AC during the Faith Militant uprising, Ser Damon Morrigen of the Warrior's Sons challenged King Maegor to a Trial of seven to which King Maegor accepted. Ser Damon and six Warrior Sons fought against the King and his six champions. It was a trial in which the Kingdom itself was at stake. In the end only King Maegor was left alive, the other thirteen lay dead. ^[2]

 

 

 

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I'm not talking about any of that. I'm wondering what you make of the fact that so few people were persuaded by your theory. Even those who are extremely open to the possibility that R+L=/=J.

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm not saying the lack of support for your theory proves that it's wrong.

Don't make anything of it Jstar to be honest.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

So it remains merely an old dream that GRRM has stated explicitly in an SSM may not have been literal, and it's hard to see how a thing like that can definitively establish Lyanna as having been at the ToJ.

Not only is it an old dream,it is an old dream that really doesn't say who Jon's father and mother are. Putting aside if Lyanna was at the tower or not.It doesn't put Rhaegar at the tower at anytime,it doesn't put the Kgs at the tower the entire time.The "far away remark" is broad.If Athur and Whent somehow ended up with Lyanna,maybe she was pregnant when they brought her there.And it to state the obvious we still can't put Rhaegar at the tower with Lyanna.

[kimim]

49 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So right now there is a straight forward explanation for the events at the ToJ:

1)  The ToJ is an old watchtower in a ruined state rather than a place fit for living.  This would explain why Ned and Howland can tear it down themselves.

2)  The 3 kingsguard are in charge of Viserys' Dornish army.

3)  Ned challenges the kingsguard to a Trial of Seven under Dornish Law.  Recalling that Doran Martell considers a trial by combat a legal and valid judgement.  He never asks about Lyanna.

4) Arthur Dayne tells Ned where to find Lyanna before he dies.  His fever dream conflates the two events.

5) The World Book written by Maester Yandel for Tommen Baratheon contains errors of fact and misinformation.

6)  All this says is that Ned found Lyanna somewhere else and nothing about  RLJ.

This is not straightforward at all.

The tower is more than just a ruined old watchtower; otherwise, why does Ned tear it down and use its stones to bury the dead? The disposal of a Northerner's body is a major deal for Ned, and that he chooses this path says something about his emotional response to the tower.

There is no proof that the kingsguard were in charge of Viserys's army; in fact, there is no evidence for Viserys's army. The only thing we know about Dorne is that it is supremely indifferent: It allows Viserys and Dany to beg for a decade. It is dead silent during Robert's reign. No one mentions a battle between Viserys's army and Ned, not Doran, not Oberyn, not Ned, not Tywin.

There is no proof that Ned challenges the kingsguard to a Trial of Seven. That Ned appears with only six men at this place says more about his desire for privacy than anything else. btw Ned doesn't need to ask about Lyanna, as she is the climax of his dream. Unlike Viserys's army and the Trial of Seven, which are not mentioned in the text in connection with toj, Lyanna is. Yet we discount her?

There is no proof that Arthur Dayne told Ned anything before he died.

Nothing here says that Ned found Lyanna somewhere other than the toj.

[Ygrain]

17 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 It doesn't put Rhaegar at the tower at anytime,

You make it sound as if melancholic people commonly called some random place "joy", without having any connection to the place, or someone or something in it, whatsoever.

17 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

it doesn't put the Kgs at the tower the entire time. The "far away remark" is broad.If Athur and Whent somehow ended up with Lyanna,maybe she was pregnant when they brought her there.

And do we need them there the entire time? Why? Lyanna's, as well as the KG's, potential relocation has no bearing on the above stated: something brought Rhaegar, who was not known for being a happy go lucky, joy. But perhaps Arthur was his secret joy.

17 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

And it to state the obvious we still can't put Rhaegar at the tower with Lyanna.

And do we really need to put him there? Unless it had been his favourite place for a threesome with his KG, his joy could have been only waiting there for him to come back to her. Though I believe that his personal presence makes more sense there.

[wolfmaid7]

19 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You make it sound as if melancholic people commonly called some random place "joy", without having any connection to the place, or someone or something in it, whatsoever.

In context Ygrain,it doesn't put Rhaegar there at a time hypothethically speaking if Lyanna was there.Are you insinuating that Rhaegar had no other reason to possibly call that place joy? It must be a hypothethical love nest with Lyanna and baby nursery for Jon?If so, this is the kind of circular reasoning i'm talking about that i don't get with this theory.

19 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And do we need them there the entire time? Why? Lyanna's, as well as the KG's, potential relocation has no bearing on the above stated: something brought Rhaegar, who was not known for being a happy go lucky, joy. But perhaps Arthur was his secret joy.

No, we don't need them there the entire time, but that has been the arguement.Rhaegar and Lyanna at the toj shacking up for a year with KGs fighting over airplugs.And again are you saying there could have been nothing else in Rhaegar's life that would have caused him to call that place joy beside some possible relationship with a stranger?

19 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And do we really need to put him there? Unless it had been his favourite place for a threesome with his KG, his joy could have been only waiting there for him to come back to her. Though I believe that his personal presence makes more sense there.

Ygrain the bolded makes no sense the statement by Ned:Its simpler than that and very evident what the quote means.

"Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed."

This was a common place saying,and one that indicates people new what Rhaegar called this place and he had been called this place for a while.Long enough for the landmark to be no different than "Brokeback mountain" .He called it that way and the name catch on,again indicating it had been called that way for a long time.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Let then also say, I don't think one goes hunting three members of the kingsguard with only six companions. The fact Ned meets them with only those numbers speaks to another need.

To negotiate their surrender which is what he tries to do.

[SFDanny]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

To negotiate their surrender which is what he tries to do.

Last time it was to meet for a shootout at the OK corral. Now it is to negotiate a surrender. Enlighten me on how you arrive at this new one, BC.

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

That's true.  What Weasel means (I think) is that the app is not canonical. 

It's simply not "canon" as GRRM has explicitly defined it (meaning the five novels plus Dunk and Egg stories, or sometimes he gets even narrower: "Only the books are canon").  And he certainly didn't write the app.

I know what Weasel means because I've been through this debate before. The information in the app is approved by Martin. It is, what he calls a "semi-canon source." Canon or semi-canon, a clue is a clue that must be evaluated for its worth. There is nothing that contradicts the app's information, and plenty that supports it as I listed in my post. 

I don't agree with Weasel and others that it makes sense to blind one self to such sources. After all, the author's own comments are "semi-canon" in his words. It doesn't mean I don't listen to what he says and evaluate the hints he gives us.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Last time it was to meet for a shootout at the OK corral. Now it is to negotiate a surrender. Enlighten me on how you arrive at this new one, BC.

The two are not incompatible; quite the reverse; it started off with an invitation to surrender andended in a fight to the dead.

I'm open to options, but the point is that in both cases its a pre-arranged meeting, not the defence of the Alamo

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

In context Ygrain,it doesn't put Rhaegar there at a time hypothethically speaking if Lyanna was there.Are you insinuating that Rhaegar had no other reason to possibly call that place joy? It must be a hypothethical love nest with Lyanna and baby nursery for Jon?If so, this is the kind of circular reasoning i'm talking about that i don't get with this theory.

Except that so far, GRRM hasn't provided any other reason that might have given Rhaegar joy. The woman whose name he whispered with his last breath was there, guarded by his best pal. Even if he never stepped in there personally, then he knew, or himself sent, Lyanna there.

 

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

No, we don't need them there the entire time, but that has been the arguement.Rhaegar and Lyanna at the toj shacking up for a year with KGs fighting over airplugs.And again are you saying there could have been nothing else in Rhaegar's life that would have caused him to call that place joy beside some possible relationship with a stranger?

Whose argument? Certainly not mine. 

And yes, I am saying that in all the books and supplementary materials, there is zero information on anything that might be considered as bringing joy to Rhaegar's life. Even the music he played was sad.

It isn't stated anywhere that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't get to know each other, before or after the supposed abduction, so leave out the bolded.

BTW, joy was out of character for Rhaegar, inspired jousting was out of character for Rhaegar, acting irresponsibly and not doing his duty was out of character for Rhaegar - and guess what all those situations have in common? Lyanna.

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain the bolded makes no sense the statement by Ned:Its simpler than that and very evident what the quote means.

"Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed."

This was a common place saying,and one that indicates people new what Rhaegar called this place and he had been called this place for a while.Long enough for the landmark to be no different than "Brokeback mountain" .He called it that way and the name catch on,again indicating it had been called that way for a long time.

The underlined part is an utter nonsense. It doesn't indicate anything about the period of time for which the name was used by Rhaegar, nor does it say that anyone else called it that, and above all, that the name ceased bearing any significance to Rhaegar. Some people knew about it, sure. The narrative is in the past tense, so "it was said". The naming took place earlier than the main  narrative line, hence the past perfect. Just like Ned's account of the fight and its outcome. 

[Ygrain]

Okay, Wolfmaid, just one question: why did GRRM include the information about "tower of joy"?

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, kimim said:

This is not straightforward at all.

The tower is more than just a ruined old watchtower; otherwise, why does Ned tear it down and use its stones to bury the dead? The disposal of a Northerner's body is a major deal for Ned, and that he chooses this path says something about his emotional response to the tower.

There is no proof that the kingsguard were in charge of Viserys's army; in fact, there is no evidence for Viserys's army. The only thing we know about Dorne is that it is supremely indifferent: It allows Viserys and Dany to beg for a decade. It is dead silent during Robert's reign. No one mentions a battle between Viserys's army and Ned, not Doran, not Oberyn, not Ned, not Tywin.

There is no proof that Ned challenges the kingsguard to a Trial of Seven. That Ned appears with only six men at this place says more about his desire for privacy than anything else. btw Ned doesn't need to ask about Lyanna, as she is the climax of his dream. Unlike Viserys's army and the Trial of Seven, which are not mentioned in the text in connection with toj, Lyanna is. Yet we discount her?

There is no proof that Arthur Dayne told Ned anything before he died.

Nothing here says that Ned found Lyanna somewhere other than the toj.

There's no proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love with each other, or that Rhaegar kidnapped her, or that she ran off with him. There is no proof that Lyanna was at the ToJ. That doesn't stop anyone from filling in the gaps according to their own assumptions and preferences.  That makes my assumptions as valid as anyone else's. Nobody can claim that anything is canon at this point. What I see in the RLJ argument is a large dose of romantic projection and confirmation bias when examining the text such that absolutely everything confirms the underlying assumptions. 

Here's an interesting lesson in doing just that Norse Mythology

"To fill in the gaps, to restore much of what has been lost, we need an approach that is at the same time more critical and more intuitive. We must identify elements that are common to multiple sources, fit them together to form a more comprehensive framework, and add uncorroborated details only cautiously and tentatively."

Other than that, it really doesn't bother me what people choose to believe. 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Okay, Wolfmaid, just one question: why did GRRM include the information about "tower of joy"?

That's a good question.  Why did GRRM include information about a form of trial by combat called the Trial of Seven; or include information that Ned showed up in a group of 7 at the ToJ, or that this fight took place in Dorne where trial by combat is a legal and binding outcome or that Dorne was amassing an army under Viserys Targaryen's banner; or that the Kingsguard still uphold their vows to the Targs even after Aerys death.  Does this have anything to do with Rhaegar loves Lyanna, now that Rhaegar is dead and Robert is sitting on the throne?

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Okay, Wolfmaid, just one question: why did GRRM include the information about "tower of joy"?

He didn't include "information" about the toj Ygrain, he had Ned make a comment about a place whose name totally contradict what had gone down there and the feelings it evoked for Ned.

A  place called tower of joy was a place of bitterness.That's as far as it went.

We have no information beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ned and some very close friends fought 3 members of the kgs there.All his friends save one and all 3 members of the KGs present lost their lives.

Your already going back into that circular thinking that it has to be important ,it had to have been included because Lyanna was there with baby Jon awaiting Rhaegar's return.

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You make it sound as if melancholic people commonly called some random place "joy", without having any connection to the place, or someone or something in it, whatsoever.

Yes you're right.  It could be just a road sign.  Something like a  marker for a state line or even better "Las Vegas, next exit". 

It's also possible that Lyanna was present at the trial by combat and clearly visible. It's also possible that she was a war time hostage and that Aerys is responsible for her 'kidnappiing'; someone he can use as leverage against Robert and Ned.    He's the one calling the shots else why would Rhaegar return to KL when Gerold Hightower takes his place?  It's even possible that she threw herself into the battle screaming out Ned's name when he was in peril; resulting in her own injuries and bed of blood. If Jon is her son; she gave birth to him long before the ToJ.

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes you're right.  It could be just a road sign.  Something like a  marker for a state line or even better "Las Vegas, next exit". 

Rhaegar in Dorne inviting knights and ladies to see his tower of joy. All those supposed nights alone in Summerhal, sure...