Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

[wolfmaid7]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Wolfmaid, the word doesn't mean what you think it does. Information is, among others, basically a fact about something. Ned's comment contained such a fact. 

Ygrain the phrase doesn't mean what you think it does because "information" is so rigid a concept.You do know that right?That someone can receive or relay information that is corrupted intentionally or not with personal,and or social bias. Or i don't know it could you know be incorrect.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Curiously, that's exactly what GRRM tells us. As well as that he was "fond" of his wife.

He tells us no such thing.Nor did GRRM tell us Rhaegar was fond of his wife.Barristan's Selmy said he was fond of her when they married.They did not marry for love.Rhaegar may have thought Elia was cool when he married her but Selmy's statement nor you consider the passage of time.How people's feelings grow and develop.The notion of a fairy tale gives way the glue that forms and keeps people together.

Quote

“You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did he wed for love or duty?”
The old knight hesitated. “Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.”
Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time. Perhaps.
Ser Barristan went on. “I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen.”

You just threw "he was fond of her" out there without looking at the entire conversation,nor considered that Elia and Rhaegar spent time together,built a life and had kids together and from what we saw from Dany's vision they seemed content .

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

GRRM said that, Ran had it from a reliable source.

Wait what? Again don't throw things out there without proof.GRRM said Ran had the info that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips from a reliable source.You pulling my legs right? The only reliable source of that info would be if a fish with super sonic hearing and serious swiming skills was swimming in the Trident near Rhaegar head.This fish would've  been caught by a fisherman,sold in a market bought by a woman,who was a cook at the Citadel who fried the fish and fed it to the Maester who write that.

I know its a story where weird shit happens but i will go with the obvious answer to a simple problem.It made for a more better and romantically tragic tales for the singers who penned it that way.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Whether he sent Lyanna there, rode along or whatever, is not really significant.

I don't know what to say to this Ygrain,so i'll leave it at that....Its just...Sigh.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Honestly, we don't have a single piece of evidence that Robert had a conversation with Lyanna, either, because the only time the two are mentioned together, he is busy drinking himself while she is sniffing over another man's song. 

Out of the list your other potential candidate, Howland is the only one who ever had any interaction with Lyanna, but it doesn't prevent people from suggesting Arthur, Mance or Spaghetti Flying Monster. I don't see why Rhaegar should be held to different standards,

You rememeber i mentioned to you how you would know the level of a relationship even if the author were to leave out every step of their time together for obvious reasons?Remember this "emotional evidence" It is one of the defining truths that will sink RLJ.

I am not concerned about things being mentioned or not.There's evidence in the normal the mundane,when people are being chatty.Thisngs people say or don't say in their passing.How someone describes another when they catch them in the vulnerable that tells a story.

So Rhaegar isn't being held to any less standard than anyone else.On the contra, i told you i was going to use every arguement that i've for Rhaegar to indicate why he's not Jon's father and why Robert is.I'm going to use that and then some.

He is going to set the standard by which you all say proves him starting with this idea that Lyanna didn't want her marriage to Robert so she ran off with Rhaegar because they fell in love at first sight.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Indeed. So please, judge Rhaegar according to the same standards. People who would have had direct contact with Rhaegar, or reliable info from those, believed he loved Lyanna, so this shouldn't be discounted. Compare this with people speculating who Ned's mistress might have been - one says Ashara, another Wylla, another fisherman's daughter, another doesn't know what to believe... no unifying factor, and a burden of a dangerous secret in Ned's thoughts.

To reiterate he is being judge to the same standards,the criteria favors him because its what you guys have been using for years as evidence.People who would have reliable info aren't discounted,they haven't said anything of a sort and they've had plenty of time to say anything about them. Be honest Ygrain.Selmy,JonCon,Jamie have said nothing because they have nothing to say on this matter.

I judge those who speculate on Ned and Ashara as non insiders,they have nothing to say on the matter beyond the rumour.There's no comparison.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Pardon me? Your ASOIAF copy must be lacking quite a couple of lines, or it must be one of those things that you cannot, or will not, see (I've started the writing, you know, but we're already covering some parts here and you are dismissing them)

No it actually isn't lacking....Really you've covered parts? I honsetly didn't realize you did. I'm not dismissing it,but crap, this might be easier than i thought.

 

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If one person affects another person's behaviour, I'd say that she is the reason. What else would you call it?

First.If you believe one person affecting another person's behavior means they are the reason then "Houston we have a problem"

Secondly,who said Lyanna affected Rhaegar's behavior.The reason he crowned her is in dispute.That he kidnapped and or ran off with her is in dispute.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Wolfmaid, there is no specific contextual meaning for "it was said", or "he had named". Regardless of the grammar, the context of the paragraph conveys nothing of the bolded underlined part of your post. That is pure fabrication.

Ygrain,that Rhaegar called that place "tower of joy" was and is common knowledge.He named it in his lifetime.Given that he married courted and married and had kids with a Dornish woman,probably had Ashara on the side and the tower was said to be in Dorne,with part Dornish kids....There are reasons plenty of reasons that these elements could have been associated with calling the tower joy.

None of which having anything to do with Lyanna.The context indicates that all Ned did was point out the contrasting name to the fact that it was a sight of grief.That is in the context.

I await your write up.

 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

No, it doesn't work in GRRM's made up world, with his made up rules

It absolutely works by his rules, otherwise why include trial by combat or  the Trial of Seven at all.  It's not Ned's problem that the KG were only three.  Their choice was to kneel or fight.  This was a mopping up expedition at a broken down watchtower.  Do you really think that Aerys sent his three most famous KG to the South solely to guard Lyanna. Or that Rhaegar was in the south solely because of Lyanna. Rhaegar wasn't in charge; the king was in charge.

[J. Stargaryen]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It absolutely works by his rules, otherwise why include trial by combat or  the Trial of Seven at all.  It's not Ned's problem that the KG were only three.  Their choice was to kneel or fight.  This was a mopping up expedition at a broken down watchtower.  Do you really think that Aerys sent his three most famous KG to the South solely to guard Lyanna. Or that Rhaegar was in the south solely because of Lyanna. Rhaegar wasn't in charge; the king was in charge.

A trial of seven is, by definition, a 7-on-7 battle. No more, no less. Those are GRRM's rules. Further, as has been pointed out, it would be ludicrous for Ned to agree to one at the end of the war. Also pointed out up thread, is that if it was a trial of seven, why did Jon Arryn have to negotiate a peace with Dorne after Ned's group had already defeated the three KG?

The fact that you think Oswell Whent was one of the three most famous KG of the time speaks volumes.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I doubt the Kingsguard would have accepted that answer and they didn't.  They fought with worse odds whether it was permitted or not. They made it very clear, they do not bend the knee. Who is going to tell them otherwise? Lord Ashford? 

They may fight all they want, but they are not fighting the trial of seven then because they had lost it by default in the eyes of gods and men, by not being able to find four other fighters. Which is a ridiculous idea if, in your scenario, they have a Dornish army on the standby. 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain the phrase doesn't mean what you think it does because "information" is so rigid a concept.You do know that right?That someone can receive or relay information that is corrupted intentionally or not with personal,and or social bias. Or i don't know it could you know be incorrect.

Wolfmaid, being /in)correct or (in)objective has nothing to do with the use of the word "information" as a fact or bit of knowledge. 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

He tells us no such thing.Nor did GRRM tell us Rhaegar was fond of his wife.Barristan's Selmy said he was fond of her when they married.They did not marry for love.Rhaegar may have thought Elia was cool when he married her but Selmy's statement nor you consider the passage of time.How people's feelings grow and develop.The notion of a fairy tale gives way the glue that forms and keeps people together.

Funny that right in the passage you quoted, Selmy says that the realm paid for the lack of fondness between Aerys and Rhaella, so he does consider the passage of time. And if Rhaegar later grew to love Elia, he would have told Dany.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You just threw "he was fond of her" out there without looking at the entire conversation,nor considered that Elia and Rhaegar spent time together,built a life and had kids together and from what we saw from Dany's vision they seemed content .

So being content and feeling joy are now the same things? Please, which part of the vision shows Rhaegar joyful?

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Wait what? Again don't throw things out there without proof.GRRM said Ran had the info that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips from a reliable source.You pulling my legs right? The only reliable source of that info would be if a fish with super sonic hearing and serious swiming skills was swimming in the Trident near Rhaegar head.This fish would've  been caught by a fisherman,sold in a market bought by a woman,who was a cook at the Citadel who fried the fish and fed it to the Maester who write that.

Funny, just above you took the HotU vision as a reliable source. So, with his last breath, before he sank into water, Rhaegar whispered a woman's name, and according to GRRM, the name was Lyanna.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I know its a story where weird shit happens but i will go with the obvious answer to a simple problem.It made for a more better and romantically tragic tales for the singers who penned it that way.

Or perhaps he didn't really speak before he died and the vision was just trying to convey some information.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You rememeber i mentioned to you how you would know the level of a relationship even if the author were to leave out every step of their time together for obvious reasons?Remember this "emotional evidence" It is one of the defining truths that will sink RLJ.

Yep. Because the one time when Lyanna is with Robert, neither is paying attention to each other, and the one time she talks about him, she doubts he would ever be faithful to her. That indeed suggests deep emotional engagement on her part.

And then, for some reason, she clutches the flowers, the like of which she received from another guy, on her deathbed, till her last breath.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I am not concerned about things being mentioned or not.There's evidence in the normal the mundane,when people are being chatty.Thisngs people say or don't say in their passing.How someone describes another when they catch them in the vulnerable that tells a story.

We are not talking about RL here but about piece of literature where the author has built a mystery and must lay clues for the future reveal.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

So Rhaegar isn't being held to any less standard than anyone else.On the contra, i told you i was going to use every arguement that i've for Rhaegar to indicate why he's not Jon's father and why Robert is.I'm going to use that and then some.

Not to any less , you're holding him to stricter standards. You develop a love story between Robert and Lyanna without having a single textual hint that they ever talked beyond the obligatory smalltalk, and then claim that Rhaegar and Lyanna couldn't have had a relationship because we don't have a single textual hint at a conversation. Though we have the KotLT story where Rhaegar - why Rhaegar himself? why not the KG? -  is sent to look for the mystery knight, which would provide the opportunity for the two to meet.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

He is going to set the standard by which you all say proves him starting with this idea that Lyanna didn't want her marriage to Robert

Someone doubting their future husband's fidelity may not be rejecting the marriage altogether (as in, duty) but certainly doesn't seem particularly thrilled with the prospect.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

so she ran off with Rhaegar

Possible but not the only scenario. 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

because they fell in love at first sight.

Possible but again, not necessarily the only option.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

To reiterate he is being judge to the same standards,the criteria favors him because its what you guys have been using for years as evidence.People who would have reliable info aren't discounted,they haven't said anything of a sort and they've had plenty of time to say anything about them. Be honest Ygrain.Selmy,JonCon,Jamie have said nothing because they have nothing to say on this matter.

Oh? Barristan saying "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" is nothing?

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I judge those who speculate on Ned and Ashara as non insiders,they have nothing to say on the matter beyond the rumour.There's no comparison.

I didn't know that Rhaegar was confessing his secrets to Kevan Lannister. 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

No it actually isn't lacking....Really you've covered parts? I honsetly didn't realize you did. I'm not dismissing it,but crap, this might be easier than i thought.

Easier or not, you won't be the only one reading, and as you have noticed before, other people are quite capable of grasping what I am pointing out.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

First.If you believe one person affecting another person's behavior means they are the reason then "Houston we have a problem"

If person A affects the way the person B behaves, then person A is the reason why person B behaves the way they do. They may not be the only reason but part of it definitely.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Secondly,who said Lyanna affected Rhaegar's behavior.The reason he crowned her is in dispute.

Not just crowned. Behaved in a way that brought him victory in the tourney and that was notably different from other tourneys. Those two cannotbe separated.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

That he kidnapped and or ran off with her is in dispute.

Pray, which parts of ASOIAF are not in dispute then? 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain,that Rhaegar called that place "tower of joy" was and is common knowledge.He named it in his lifetime.Given that he married courted

It was an arranged marriage. Where does it say that he courted Elia?

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

and married and had kids with a Dornish woman,probably had Ashara on the side and the tower was said to be in Dorne,with part Dornish kids....There are reasons plenty of reasons that these elements could have been associated with calling the tower joy.

A single line that his marriage brought him joy, please.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

None of which having anything to do with Lyanna.The context indicates that all Ned did was point out the contrasting name to the fact that it was a sight of grief.That is in the context.

And the context is that like a page above, Ned's recurring dream associates Lyanna with the place.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It absolutely works by his rules, otherwise why include trial by combat or  the Trial of Seven at all.  It's not Ned's problem that the KG were only three.  Their choice was to kneel or fight.  This was a mopping up expedition at a broken down watchtower.  Do you really think that Aerys sent his three most famous KG to the South solely to guard Lyanna. Or that Rhaegar was in the south solely because of Lyanna. Rhaegar wasn't in charge; the king was in charge.

Aerys didn't send anyone anywhere. GRRM stated clearly that Rhaegar could order them about, as well.

[wolfmaid7]

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Wolfmaid, being /in)correct or (in)objective has nothing to do with the use of the word "information" as a fact or bit of knowledge. 

Ygrain from the context dealing with a mystery in the literary sense ?Yes it does. A fact that someone says,is different from what they said being a fact.

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Possible but not the only scenario. 

Agreed?

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Oh? Barristan saying "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" is nothing?

Ygrain Barristan isn't talking as an insider.He doesn't know anything beyond what everyone including random singers think they know.Everyone knew Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna Stark right? This is one of the points or quotes you are going to use as proof of love between them right?

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Easier or not, you won't be the only one reading, and as you have noticed before, other people are quite capable of grasping what I am pointing out.

Ygrain i am sure,but i'm not going to try to disprove what you are saying at all. We are just having a conversation now.And readers understanding and grasping what you are saying isn't going to change if its right or wrong.GRRM is going to do that.

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

If person A affects the way the person B behaves, then person A is the reason why person B behaves the way they do. They may not be the only reason but part of it definitely.

How exactly did Lyanna affect the way Rhaegar behaved?This is what i'm trying to get at with you.This is a strange arguement to make seeing as what Lyanna did or didn't do doesn't prove they were in love.Your arguement is somehow ascribing agency to Lyanna with regards to "her having" done something to make him behave that way and that something being proof of love between them.

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Not just crowned. Behaved in a way that brought him victory in the tourney and that was notably different from other tourneys. Those two cannotbe separated.

Oh you mean he cheated in order to win? Still doesn't say prove love as the crowing brought insult.Sooooo where's the love?

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Pray, which parts of ASOIAF are not in dispute then? 

E.g. Cersie's kids are Jamie's.

Let me ask you a question is Arya in Bravos or is she married to Ramsey Bolton?

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It was an arranged marriage. Where does it say that he courted Elia?

They were engaged a year before they got married right?

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

A single line that his marriage brought him joy, please.

We don't need a line all we need is to be observant of things said,done,dreamt etc.

58 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And the context is that like a page above, Ned's recurring dream associates Lyanna with the place.

 

Ned's reocurring dream associates the fight with the KGs at that place.Lyanna's scream in the dream doesn't have to be associated with anything there directly.It is another element in Ned's dream. The fighting or clash of swords could be a trigger because that is how Lyanna died.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

A trial of seven is, by definition, a 7-on-7 battle. No more, no less. Those are GRRM's rules.

Given the symbolism of the Seven I'd be reluctant to define this so rigidly and suggest that it has a wider application in the sense of seven good men and true - just as the King's Guard are seven.

[J. Stargaryen]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Given the symbolism of the Seven I'd be reluctant to define this so rigidly and suggest that it has a wider application in the sense of seven good men and true - just as the King's Guard are seven.

Symbolically? Sure. But literally? No.

I'm sure someone else has already mentioned that five of Aerys's seven KG died. Aerys Targaryen, that is. And that only two of Ned's seven lived. Almost like they were symbolic KG.

[SFDanny]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

It means seven against seven if you have that many.  If you have less, you lose by default unless you fight and the Kingsguard are not about to back away from a fight.  They are still following orders.

Why would Oberyn be involved?  This is about the Kingsguard preparing the Dornish army and not standing down.  They are the ones who will not kneel.  Doran Martell is not about to lose more lives in a fight with Robert if he can avoid it.  He plays the long game and he accepts the judgement of a trial by combat as we've seen with Oberyn and Sandor.

I still don't understand why you are opposed to this version of the ToJ.

Sorry, my response was lost in the site's shutdown.

I think Ygrain's response about the rules of Martin's seven against seven challenge is spot on. If you haven't had a chance to go over the Hedge Knight's example, I think it makes this very clear.

But you say the Kingsguard is "still following orders," but what you don't make clear is whose orders you think they are following in this scenario. I assumed you and BC are talking about a meeting in which the Dornish troops will step down based on the outcome of the theoretical duel. I don't see how that is possible without the participation of the Prince of Dorne, do you?

Hence my question about why did not the Red Viper participate, along with three other of the bests swords in Dorne? The fact the Kingsguard loses the fight and Prince Oberyn is still organizing for a fight until Jon Arryn and Prince Doran meet and settle the matter should tell you that the two princes had nothing to do with this idea, and that the Kingsguard trio has no ability to negotiate for Dorne in this matter.

I'm opposed to this version for the very simple reason it makes no sense given the problems both Ygrain and I have spoken to. I'm not opposed to creative thinking on the subject, but, as the old saying goes, it has to hold a tiny bit of water, doesn't it? This doesn't.

[WeaselPie]

On 8/29/2016 at 11:05 PM, SFDanny said:

(A World of Ice and Fire app, Lyanna Stark entry)

Only the books are canon.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Symbolically? Sure. But literally? No.

I'm sure someone else has already mentioned that five of Aerys's seven KG died. Aerys Targaryen, that is. And that only two of Ned's seven lived. Almost like they were symbolic KG.

The second is an interesting observation that hadn't occurred to me, but as to the first I do think that it should be taken literally.

Whilst I suggested that it would make more sense for the last of the King's Guard to join with the last Targaryen army rather than flee to Dragonstone, I didn't and don't mean to suggest they were commanding it, and nor do I hold with the recounter at the tower being a Trial of Seven. However, on the basis of Lord Eddard's fever dream it appears to have begun with an attempt by Lord Eddard to ask them to lay down their arms or take their leave. Lord Eddard could have tooled up with the forces he led in "the last battles" of the war, but instead only he and six companions came and I'm suggesting that the number was significant, as being a proper one for such a formal meeting, whether or not it ended in the unnecessary  violence Lord Eddard was keen to avoid. 

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The second is an interesting observation that hadn't occurred to me, but as to the first I do think that it should be taken literally.

Whilst I suggested that it would make more sense for the last of the King's Guard to join with the last Targaryen army rather than flee to Dragonstone, I didn't and don't mean to suggest they were commanding it, and nor do I hold with the recounter at the tower being a Trial of Seven. However, on the basis of Lord Eddard's fever dream it appears to have begun with an attempt by Lord Eddard to ask them to lay down their arms or take their leave. Lord Eddard could have tooled up with the forces he led in "the last battles" of the war, but instead only he and six companions came and I'm suggesting that the number was significant, as being a proper one for such a formal meeting, whether or not it ended in the unnecessary  violence Lord Eddard was keen to avoid. 

3KGs killed in the Prince's Pass while possibly protecting a young dragon. Add a peace banner and a dornish betrayal and maybe Jon's dreams of being the Young Dragon make a lot of sense.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

3KGs killed in the Prince's Pass while possibly protecting a young dragon. Add a peace banner and a dornish betrayal and maybe Jon's dreams of being the Young Dragon make a lot of sense.

Why a Dornish betrayel? Daeron I had been fighting against the Dorish, the Targaryen forces during the Rebellion had been fighting Baratheons, Starks, Arryn's and Tully's and their bannermen.

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Why a Dornish betrayel? Daeron I had been fighting against the Dorish, the Targaryen forces during the Rebellion had been fighting Baratheons, Starks, Arryn's and Tully's and their bannermen.

Daeron I was murdered while under a peace banner. I still think that Ned's ride across the Prince's Pass was too easy going.

[Runaway Penguin]

Fear of betrayal might have contributed to taking just 6 other men:

• Small group is less threatening - more likely to be let through in the confused situation
• If small group gets captured/killed, does not influence overall picture. OK, losing experienced battle commander would, but not as much as, say, losing cavalry vanguard.
• Small group can travel faster
• Small group is more likely to keep a secret.

Seven members might be a symbolic number by author, not necessarily for Eddard when he was putting them together

 

[Frey family reunion]

21 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

But you didn't answer - why do you think GRRM depicted a melancholic prince, yet had him name a place "tower of joy"?

The answer is obvious IMO:

Quote

"Yes.  And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best.

The tower of joy was another attempt at what Aegon hoped to accomplish at Summerhall.

[wolfmaid7]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But you didn't answer - why do you think GRRM depicted a melancholic prince, yet had him name a place "tower of joy"?

@Ygrain 

Frey Family i'm piggy backing of you for a second;i didn't see this. Its obvious that place has good memories for Rhaegar Ygrain.But you saying it "must" be about Lyanna and can only be about Lyanna because who else it have been is a bit much.

[SFDanny]

4 hours ago, WeaselPie said:

Only the books are canon.

Is this a religious debate? Are the "semi-canon" sources of information now the Gnostic Gospels? Is the Martin's app now the equivalent of the Gospel of Mary, where the mere mention of which brands you as a heretic. Or is this a search for evidence? Where all evidence is weighed and evaluated for it's own worth. I don't throw out uncontradicted, well supported, and clear evidence because other readers have decided I can't raise the evidence in debate.

Weasel, because you and some others have decided a priori knowledge of what is acceptable as a source doesn't mean the rest of us must bow down to your "superior knowledge."  It is frankly a stupid argument. Tell me why the evidence I cited is likely wrong, and we can have a productive discussion. Tell me evidence must be ruled out because of what is designated "canon" or what is "semi-canon" and we get nowhere. I don't agree with the entire approach.

[BricksAndSparrows]

I must be misreading.. No one is saying that the battle at the tower of joy was a Trial by seven, right?

[J. Stargaryen]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The second is an interesting observation that hadn't occurred to me, but as to the first I do think that it should be taken literally.

Whilst I suggested that it would make more sense for the last of the King's Guard to join with the last Targaryen army rather than flee to Dragonstone, I didn't and don't mean to suggest they were commanding it, and nor do I hold with the recounter at the tower being a Trial of Seven. However, on the basis of Lord Eddard's fever dream it appears to have begun with an attempt by Lord Eddard to ask them to lay down their arms or take their leave. Lord Eddard could have tooled up with the forces he led in "the last battles" of the war, but instead only he and six companions came and I'm suggesting that the number was significant, as being a proper one for such a formal meeting, whether or not it ended in the unnecessary  violence Lord Eddard was keen to avoid. 

I still think it's more likely that the number was symbolic. Seven and three being magical numbers, and significant in the series. It could represent a number of things, e.g., the 7K vs. the three heads of the dragon. Stuff like that. I also think there were likely practical considerations at play. Enough men to defeat the three KG, but not so many that containing the secret would be unrealistic.

3 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Seven members might be a symbolic number by author, not necessarily for Eddard when he was putting them together

Basically this.

10 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I must be misreading.. No one is saying that the battle at the tower of joy was a Trial by seven, right?

You're not misreading. That is what @LynnS is arguing.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The second is an interesting observation that hadn't occurred to me, but as to the first I do think that it should be taken literally.

Whilst I suggested that it would make more sense for the last of the King's Guard to join with the last Targaryen army rather than flee to Dragonstone, I didn't and don't mean to suggest they were commanding it, and nor do I hold with the recounter at the tower being a Trial of Seven. However, on the basis of Lord Eddard's fever dream it appears to have begun with an attempt by Lord Eddard to ask them to lay down their arms or take their leave. Lord Eddard could have tooled up with the forces he led in "the last battles" of the war, but instead only he and six companions came and I'm suggesting that the number was significant, as being a proper one for such a formal meeting, whether or not it ended in the unnecessary  violence Lord Eddard was keen to avoid. 

Yah, i can go with this explanation.