Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

It is possible that this tower was some other kind of tower that had no tactical usage and was not manned or watched. It is also possible that it was not a secret place at all and everyone that passed through the pass could tell that Rhaegar and 3KGs lived there and this is how Hightower and the Ned found it.

Or was it like these towers that Arianne makes mention of in WoW sample chapter:

All along the south coast of Cape Wrath rose crumbling stone watchtowers, raised in ancient days to give warning of Dornish raiders stealing in across the sea. Villages had grown up about the towers. A few had flowered into towns.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

I'm not familiar with the book The Lands of Ice and Fire. 

Castles in the Dornish Red Mountains include Blackmont, High Hermitage, Kingsgrave, Skyreach, Starfall, Wyl, and Yronwood. The Dornish mountains also contain the ruins of the Tower of Joy and Vulture's Roost.^[1] There are two principal passes through the mountains, the Prince's Pass, guarded by House Fowler, and the Boneway, guarded by House Yronwood. The river Wyl flows from the eastern mountains to the Sea of Dorne, while the Torentine flows from the western mountains to the Summer Sea. The Dornish who live in the Red Mountains are known as stony Dornishmen.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Red_Mountains#cite_note-Rtloiaf_westeros.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D-0

Apparently these maps are canon:

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/the-lands-of-ice-and-fire/

[wolfmaid7]

16 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

I'd be very interested to see that quote, but it hasn't been provided yet. That's what I'm asking for -- evidence for what shape the ritual GRRM portrays in symbol here takes.

However, with apologies, the Gardnerian version is a modern version, not an older version. Gardner himself readily admitted that he was working on a fragmentary tradition and introduced a lot of guesswork and intuition of his own. We know quite a bit about some of the regional English versions that are ten times as old. 

I think i can explain this all to you in one para.I'am an initiate in Gardenerian wicca.I am also "Famtrad".Gardner employed rituals from many many famtrad groups in England because he was afraid withcraft was dying in England.It wasn't that though,it was that the craft was after the mystery school system and its teachings are suppose to be in secret.Gardner took alot of flack for bringing some rituals to ligt it was seen as a betrayal of some of the family tradition.Some tracing all the way back to Ancient Egypt.He wasn't working on a fragmentary tradition but traditions.However, somethings have remained the same through the ages.

The horned god for instance has always been around.In secret but around ,and in separate incarnations depending on traditions,or coven. In some covens he may be Pan or Cern or he maybe a diety no one has ever heard of from some primitive corner of the world or from a tribe that's dead and gone. The horned god is essentially,the first shepard,hunter,gardner etc.

So when i say to you somethings are core and not likely to change that for instance,what he is what he represents his characteristics isn't going to be different.

34 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

So now you say "I am not saying they have to have sex,a mutual sexual act symbolized in some way precedes the dance where everyone gets to celebrate the union that happend." I'm struggling to see how that works with "the sex already took place."

I never said in "real life" they had to have actuall sex,that's something different.When it comes to this story i'm saying:

1.The symbolism of the great rite has been present since book one with the finding of the direwolf mom.

2. Robert and Lyanna excluding all the other evidence did have sex at Harrenhall because GRRM didn't just superimpose some obscure mythology that you and a lot of people had to google to get an idea about it for nothing.There's actually no reason to put that there if in the case that Rhaegar and Lyanna got together and Jon is theirs its not neccessary.All of that would be observable form just eyeballing the mudane,the perceptions and opinions.

Yeah, otherwise its rape,and i can see a situation where if Robert in his drunkenss raped Lyanna fracking things up.It could be the answer to your question about spring if i was so inclined to buy that.

43 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

That order varies. That's what I'm saying. There isn't a single tradition here, there are a whole raft of interrelated ones.

 I'm not asserting there's a single tradition,i know that.I have friends in several traditions initiated and famtrad.Though there are somethings that are a secret this isn't one of them. I have never in all my years as a Pagan been to any Beltane( i use that for ease) where the "may pole" dance happened before the ritualized or real sex act. Even when an invocation or chant is done its always along the lines of..

"the god and goddess have mated"

We bask in the glory of their union( for example)

Bless the fruits of our labour (for example) 

(use the watchtowers or quaters in some way)

53 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

The question is whether the symbolic sexual act takes place before or after the actual sexual act, not the dancing. If we can return to the origin of this dispute, I pointed out that it is Rhaegar, not Robert who performed the symbolic act, with his lance. Your response to this is that would take place after the actual sexual act. Generally speaking the crowning is the symbolic act, the actual act would take place after the festivities come to an end for the night.

You ensure fertility before you plant the seed. You have the marriage ceremony before the first night. Exclusively, in every single instance? No, of course not. There are exceptions. It's arguing that the exception is the only possibility that I have a problem with. 

And i said that Lyanna and Robert are themselves a symbol.I also pointed out that symbolism appeared in the first chapter with the finding of the direwolf.

No that wasn't the origin of the dispute,the origin was you saying him putting the flowers in Lyanna's lap is pretty overt.I said the may pole is only produced after the act as a symbol to what had happened.

My response to be exact was Rhaegar producing that symbol meant the deed was already done. What he did was pretty much no different than the may pole dance. A declaration that the god and goddess have joined.Except, what in real life what would be a joyous proclamation is one of shame here.

That's where we are having the dispute.

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

Sure it could. Once more, it's not the interpretation you put on it I object to, it's your insistence that it's the only feasible interpretation -- and then drawing further conclusions on the presumption that interpretation is true -- that is problematic.

Oh gosh no, i see what you are saying and i'm in noway saying its the only feasible interpretation.Every and i mean every theory on here has another feasible interpretation when you think about it.Is it unlkley when viewed in totality but certainly not the "only" feasible one.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I'm unsure how any of this proves Jon is Robert's son, and:

It doesn't ,its a rebutal against what "YOU" and others have brought up to say Jon can't be Robert's son.Using it as proof is ridiculous given the context of the obeservers and it higlights what GRRM is basically saying....Their methods are set in superstition and religion.

 

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

There are many, many more. Lyanna's remark about Robert, which is the only hint we have as to what she thought of him -  happens to be in a negative light, why and how Rhaegar is involved in this whole business, so on.

The video you posted is him talking about the show, and my point stands that none of this is mentioned in the books. Let's take the books as the supreme canon, after all, wiki, app everything else is invalid in this thread..

What? What Lyanna said about Robert wasn't negative. It was her sharing a concer with her brother.Did that concern turn out to be true for her? No.

He is talkng about the show but he's representing a concept from the books again echoed with Cat being pissed off Jon looked more like Ned than any of her kids.Tywin being shitty to Tyrion.Tyrion's you got more of the North in you.Do i need to go on.Its a concept.You look more like your sire things are right as rain.

[wolfmaid7]

56 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Ok, there's something we can work with here. How much older than Robb do you believe Jon was?

If Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, he was conceived in 281. We can't be certain when, but it doesn't have to have been may day, right? We could push this back as late as maybe September, October at a real push. 

Robb was conceived just after Ned & Cat's marriage, at which point Ned is off for around a year. Not withstanding the wiki telling us the Battle of the Bells was in 283, there's scope in the timeline for it to have been in 282 and for Robb to be born sometime in the middle of 283. 

So if we compress the timeline as much as possible without it completely breaking, we could get the age gap down to as little as perhaps a year, though that's really stretching things. You've still got a baby just about able to point it's eyes at things and a toddler able to walk and say a few words.

No it could have been and i'm theorising it was before the final Joust.I don't know how much Jon is older than Robb nor do i think its important for a few reasons.Notably,it will accomplish and has accomplished anything for anyone.Ok let me take a different angle.

Let's say Cat says something to Luuwn and he eases her mind with his statement.....Now what?

1. Is Maester Luuwn's words of wisdom quell doubts.Probably not.But its a supertitious time so maybe a little.Cat seemed sensitive to that sort of thing.

2. Let's say it doesn't,what now what is one going to do with the info especially if it doesn't hurt Robb's status.

57 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

It can't be rationalised that Ned fathered Jon before he married Cat and that Jon is younger than Robb.

We are specifically told that Jon was raised as one of the family and that he and Robb were raised as brothers. That doesn't fit in with the idea that he was kept out of sight until he was into his adolescence. 

It would be necessary to mistake Jon as a 3 month old to accept that he was younger than Robb, when Robb was a 3 month old. He can't be younger than Robb if he's older than Robb, obviously. 

You're forgetting a vital thing here. Cat believes that Ned fathered Jon after they got married. This isn't anyone whitewashing anything, or trying to be polite for Robb's sake. That's Cat's own genuine thoughts on the matter. About three months after Robb's birth, she rode to Winterfell to find Jon there.  If she had found a toddler, she would not have believed that Ned had cheated on her. 

It must have been credible to Cat that Jon was younger than Robb. If Jon was more than a few months older than Robb at most, it would not be credible to Cat that Jon was younger than Robb. Therefore Jon is at most a few months older than Robb. QED.

That's the problem you are looking for "a person(s)" to rationalized this? Based on Luuwnin's statemnet we know that someone was thinking Jon is older and asked something to get that answer.I  think Cat the most likely suspect and Jon probably heard somehow.Which brings be to what Cat believes...Her belief isn't relevant because its not based on what she knows.There's noway she could know when Ned fathered Jon because he didn't devulge that info.And if she heard a rumor about it that's not trustworthy because unless it came from Ned it can't be trusted and we know he didn't say.

What are her thoughts based on and why? Especially if there's noway she could have gotten the info from.

Kingmonkey there's no reason for Robb and Jon to be kept apart until adolecence.Come on,Jon could have been  5 and Robb  3 yrs old when they started playing together for the first time to which Cat might have said "what the frack he's older"it still wouldn't matter.As longs as Jon remained a bastard and not legitimate and as long as Robb was raised to be elder it would'nt matter.

As they grew that distiction physically would becaome less and less.It would be easy to perpetuate this farce especially if people have no reason to do otherwise.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1. Ned or anyone was passing Jon off as a 3mth old when he was not.When Jon and Robb reached a point where you couldn't tell the difference and for them to care about namedays fit would take nothing for  Luuwin to say "Jon your nameday is two weeks after Robb" Ned was never going to say anything.

Actually, Ned said quite a lot. In fact, he was pretty precise about Jon Snow's age, as he told Robert while they were traveling along the King's Road:

Quote

 

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child." (AGOT Eddard II)

 

It's hard to see how Ned could be more plain or forthright than that.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

No one knows what Arryn meant when he said "the seed is strong" Ned guessed that Arryn meant Baratheon Black hair didn't yield to Lannister gold.Read that again .That was the context Lannister gold against Baratheon black.

For all we know Jon  Arryn could have been in reality talking about how all Robert's children were physically very strong for their ages. None of which changes what Ned guessed and the context of that guess.

Nope. We actually do know what Jon Arryn was talking about, because of the book that he consulted, that Ned also consulted (although not at first seeing what was there).

The cards fell into place for Ned when Sansa unthinkingly mentioned how Joffrey doesn't look anything at all like the king. Arya begins it by saying, "He's a liar and a craven and anyhow he's a stag, not a lion." Sansa screams at her, "He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king." (AGOT, Sansa III)

After that, Ned again studies the same book that Jon Arryn had studied. And what the book makes clear is that Baratheons always look like Baratheons, and Joffrey doesn't. It's all about what they look like, not any other characteristics.

Since Ned later told Cersei "I know the truth Jon Arryn died for", Ned explicitly made the connection between his knowledge and Jon Arryn's, that he gained that knowledge using the same source of information that Jon Arryn did and came to the same conclusions, for the same reasons.

Again, it's quite straightforward.

 

[Kingmonkey]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Just checked with a ruler on the official map. I would put the length of the pass at a bit more than 1/3 of the length of the Wall. 100-130 miles?

The pic I put up has the official map in it. A third of the length of the wall barely covers the "prince's" of the text. But hey, let's go with this estimate, I'm game. Bottom line of your estimate, too. 100 miles. 100x18.75= 1875 square miles. That's still a huge area.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Maybe the tower was guarding some goat track, but there are no guides in Ned's dream, unlike when Jon sends Stannis to meet the mountain clans. Also, normally towers in mountain passes are built in places of high visibility, so that they have a commanding view of the area; that also makes them highly visible.

Sure, you can see the tower from a long way, but can you see who's in it? Just another vague dot in the distance. As I said, there's room for there to be hundreds of watchtowers dotted around, and undoubtedly there would be herders sheltering in them all the time. Even at a generous 1 mile range to see something suspicious (can you recognise people from a mile away?), and your ultra conservative 1875 sqm, that's only around 0.17% of the area of the Prince's Pass.

However, I think 1875 is a vast underestimate. Clear visual demonstrations are best for this kind of thing, so hey presto!

Yes, on the official GRRM approved map from the Land of Fire and Ice, you can fit the entirety of the Iron Islands into the Prince's Pass, with room to spare. Even assuming a fair old chunk of cartographic inaccuracy, I think we can safely conclude that the Prince's Pass is friggin' huge.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

It is possible that this tower was some other kind of tower that had no tactical usage and was not manned or watched. It is also possible that it was not a secret place at all and everyone that passed through the pass could tell that Rhaegar and 3KGs lived there and this is how Hightower and the Ned found it.

Judging by its position, I wouldn't be surprised if it was an old watchtower,(probably one of several), built to observe the way through the mountains from Vulture's Roost. Likely long abandoned when it was no longer necessary to watch for raiders from that direction after the defeat of the last Vulture King.

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Sure, you can see the tower from a long way, but can you see who's in it? Just another vague dot in the distance. As I said, there's room for there to be hundreds of watchtowers dotted around, and undoubtedly there would be herders sheltering in them all the time. Even at a generous 1 mile range to see something suspicious (can you recognise people from a mile away?), and your ultra conservative 1875 sqm, that's only around 0.17% of the area of the Prince's Pass.

This is an interesting map from the same book.

https://www.quora.com/In-one-of-the-chapters-of-The-Winds-of-Winter-two-Dornish-hosts-were-stationed-in-the-Red-Mountains-Why

It looks to me as though the ToJ isn't up in the mountains but on the valley floor at the very northern edge of the pass.This could be a kind of boundary post between The Reach and Dorne. And yes it would make sense that it is also an old watchtower given it's location.  North of the ToJ is Nightsong of House Caron, sworn to Robert Baratheon.

It would make sense to me that Ned would stop there on his way to the ToJ.  I'd also wager that as one of few entryways into Dorne that there would be a fairly well used tract or roadway passing by the ToJ.  I don't think it's location would be as much of a mystery to travellers.

If the ToJ is used as a boundary marker; then It wouldn't necessarily mean that Ned was in danger of attack  until crossing the border but it make a lot of sense to find the KG there because of it's location.   I think it's well known landmark given the history of the region.  

I just don't agree that it's a standing tower rather than a ruin.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Actually, Ned said quite a lot. In fact, he was pretty precise about Jon Snow's age, as he told Robert while they were traveling along the King's Road:

It's hard to see how Ned could be more plain or forthright than that.

 

Nope. We actually do know what Jon Arryn was talking about, because of the book that he consulted, that Ned also consulted (although not at first seeing what was there).

The cards fell into place for Ned when Sansa unthinkingly mentioned how Joffrey doesn't look anything at all like the king. Arya begins it by saying, "He's a liar and a craven and anyhow he's a stag, not a lion." Sansa screams at her, "He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king." (AGOT, Sansa III)

After that, Ned again studies the same book that Jon Arryn had studied. And what the book makes clear is that Baratheons always look like Baratheons, and Joffrey doesn't. It's all about what they look like, not any other characteristics.

Since Ned later told Cersei "I know the truth Jon Arryn died for", Ned explicitly made the connection between his knowledge and Jon Arryn's, that he gained that knowledge using the same source of information that Jon Arryn did and came to the same conclusions, for the same reasons.

Again, it's quite straightforward.

 

Agreed, it is indeed very straightforward and above all internally consistent.

[Black Crow]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is an interesting map from the same book.

https://www.quora.com/In-one-of-the-chapters-of-The-Winds-of-Winter-two-Dornish-hosts-were-stationed-in-the-Red-Mountains-Why

It looks to me as though the ToJ isn't up in the mountains but on the valley floor at the very northern edge of the pass.This could be a kind of boundary post between The Reach and Dorne. And yes it would make sense that it is also an old watchtower given it's location.  North of the ToJ is Nightsong of House Caron, sworn to Robert Baratheon.

It would make sense to me that Ned would stop there on his way to the ToJ.  I'd also wager that as one of few entryways into Dorne that there would be a fairly well used tract or roadway passing by the ToJ.  I don't think it's location would be as much of a mystery to travellers.

If the ToJ is used as a boundary marker; then It wouldn't necessarily mean that Ned was in danger of attack  until crossing the border but it make a lot of sense to find the KG there because of it's location.   I think it's well known landmark given the history of the region.  

I just don't agree that it's a standing tower rather than a ruin.

 

Likewise agreed; hence my argument that it was a landmark and consequently a meeting place rather than a hideaway.

As to the locals keeping quiet about the three men in their white cloaks, if it was the latter I can do no better than quote Mr Hotep: "Someone talked. Someone always talks"

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

The pic I put up has the official map in it. A third of the length of the wall barely covers the "prince's" of the text. But hey, let's go with this estimate, I'm game. Bottom line of your estimate, too. 100 miles. 100x18.75= 1875 square miles. That's still a huge area.

Sure, you can see the tower from a long way, but can you see who's in it? Just another vague dot in the distance. As I said, there's room for there to be hundreds of watchtowers dotted around, and undoubtedly there would be herders sheltering in them all the time. Even at a generous 1 mile range to see something suspicious (can you recognise people from a mile away?), and your ultra conservative 1875 sqm, that's only around 0.17% of the area of the Prince's Pass.

However, I think 1875 is a vast underestimate. Clear visual demonstrations are best for this kind of thing, so hey presto!

Yes, on the official GRRM approved map from the Land of Fire and Ice, you can fit the entirety of the Iron Islands into the Prince's Pass, with room to spare. Even assuming a fair old chunk of cartographic inaccuracy, I think we can safely conclude that the Prince's Pass is friggin' huge.

Judging by its position, I wouldn't be surprised if it was an old watchtower,(probably one of several), built to observe the way through the mountains from Vulture's Roost. Likely long abandoned when it was no longer necessary to watch for raiders from that direction after the defeat of the last Vulture King.

The picture that you posted in from the Known World Map; I am looking at the more detailed Westeros map; I already gave you a width an approximation based of the width of The Wall. The map shows a big mountain range blocking the way to Vulture's Roost. The Tower of Joy appears to be straight north of Kinsgrave at the point that the dornish marshes start.

The pass is long, but not that wide. A few towers at a height of 150-200 feet above the rest of the pass are probably enough to monitor the mouth of the pass

It doesn't look that you can fit the Iron Islands in the Pass...maybe Harlow and Pyke?

In addition to the troops guarding the pass, you also have caravans carrying goods between Sunspear and the rest of Westeros (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/10.1./). It seems that GRRM made this a very high traffic area.

 

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Or was it like these towers that Arianne makes mention of in WoW sample chapter:

All along the south coast of Cape Wrath rose crumbling stone watchtowers, raised in ancient days to give warning of Dornish raiders stealing in across the sea. Villages had grown up about the towers. A few had flowered into towns.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

I'm not familiar with the book The Lands of Ice and Fire. 

Castles in the Dornish Red Mountains include Blackmont, High Hermitage, Kingsgrave, Skyreach, Starfall, Wyl, and Yronwood. The Dornish mountains also contain the ruins of the Tower of Joy and Vulture's Roost.^[1] There are two principal passes through the mountains, the Prince's Pass, guarded by House Fowler, and the Boneway, guarded by House Yronwood. The river Wyl flows from the eastern mountains to the Sea of Dorne, while the Torentine flows from the western mountains to the Summer Sea. The Dornish who live in the Red Mountains are known as stony Dornishmen.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Red_Mountains#cite_note-Rtloiaf_westeros.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D-0

Apparently these maps are canon:

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/the-lands-of-ice-and-fire/

The towers in Arianne's chapter are sea watchtowers in the Stormlands, but in a way they are equivalent: a chain of watchtowers to keep track of raiders and enemy armies.

The maps are probably canon within reason (i.e. they are flawed medieval maps)

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

The towers in Arianne's chapter are sea watchtowers in the Stormlands, but in a way they are equivalent: a chain of watchtowers to keep track of raiders and enemy armies.

The maps are probably canon within reason (i.e. they are flawed medieval maps)

It's the prevalence of broken down watchtowers in general and this comment in Wiki:

The Dornish mountains also contain the ruins of the Tower of Joy. So there is actually a reference describing the place as a ruin.

[Ygrain]

On 1. 9. 2016 at 0:06 PM, LynnS said:

Even Rhaegar had to return to KL when so ordered.

Oh? And how do you know that Rhaegar didn't agree to return in exchange for some concessions on Aerys's part?

On 1. 9. 2016 at 0:06 PM, LynnS said:

So again, it's a question of whether you believe that Rhaegar started the war because he wanted a woman

Of course he didn't. Jon Arryn started the war, not Rhaegar, and he wouldn't have done so, had Aerys not demanded the heads of Ned and Robert. The Starks might have rebelled anyway because of the deaths of Rickard and Brandon but not just because of Lyanna. No-one called any banners after Lyanna's abduction.

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

As @Laughing Storm Reborn pointed out this comparison was between Baratheon black against Lannister gold.When you look at the context begining with Arryn's surveyor of Gendry the emphasis of Gendry's mom hair color it becomes clear what was being looked at and how the method of deciding is ridiculous.As GRRM said these people didnt know about genes they had their own way of deciding that "blood will tell" Lets think about that method for a bit.

“Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens" (ACOK)

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Robert and Lyanna excluding all the other evidence did have sex at Harrenhall because GRRM didn't just superimpose some obscure mythology that you and a lot of people had to google to get an idea about it for nothing.

ROFLMAO.

7 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What? What Lyanna said about Robert wasn't negative. It was her sharing a concer with her brother.Did that concern turn out to be true for her? No.

What? "I am afraid that my future husband is going to cheat on me even though he loves me" is not a negative comment? 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It doesn't ,its a rebutal against what "YOU" and others have brought up to say Jon can't be Robert's son.Using it as proof is ridiculous given the context of the obeservers and it higlights what GRRM is basically saying....Their methods are set in superstition and religion.

This is purely your interpretation and is based in no textual evidence.

The simplest interpretation from the text is this:

7 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Nope. We actually do know what Jon Arryn was talking about, because of the book that he consulted, that Ned also consulted (although not at first seeing what was there).

The cards fell into place for Ned when Sansa unthinkingly mentioned how Joffrey doesn't look anything at all like the king. Arya begins it by saying, "He's a liar and a craven and anyhow he's a stag, not a lion." Sansa screams at her, "He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king." (AGOT, Sansa III)

After that, Ned again studies the same book that Jon Arryn had studied. And what the book makes clear is that Baratheons always look like Baratheons, and Joffrey doesn't. It's all about what they look like, not any other characteristics.

Since Ned later told Cersei "I know the truth Jon Arryn died for", Ned explicitly made the connection between his knowledge and Jon Arryn's, that he gained that knowledge using the same source of information that Jon Arryn did and came to the same conclusions, for the same reasons.

Again, it's quite straightforward.

 

10 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The most plausible reason is that they went to see the bastards to confirm their suspicions about Cersei's children, which makes sense before you accuse a queen of treason of this sort. If the hypothesis was purely, "Lannister gold yields before Baratheon black" then there is no need for them to go see Robert's other kids with non-Lannister women. That in any way could not have confirmed Cersei's incest.

Straightforward, clear cut and answers all the questions, such as - Why did they go to see the bastards? Why was JA consulting that old book? What was the reason he had to be silenced? and so on. 

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What? What Lyanna said about Robert wasn't negative. It was her sharing a concer with her brother.Did that concern turn out to be true for her? No.

The only piece of evidence in the books of how Lyanna felt about Robert, is indeed negative:

Quote

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

How does this point to Lyanna feeling any kind of "love" between them, leave sex? So R +L = J is invalid because we have no evidence of them ever having had even a conversation.....I'm waiting to see the text that proves RB + L had a conversation, were deeply in love and had sex.

And again, I'm sure these questions will be ignored, but:

- Why would Ned even have to keep the parentage secret? Why would his "broken promises" torment him after all these years?

- How would Ned have explained it if Jon had turned out looking like Robert, there were no Baratheon women of that generation? 

- What is Rhaegar's role in this? Did the guy kidnap Lyanna and keep her in the TOJ, taking full care of her so that she could carry this hypothetical pregnancy to Robert to term? and so on.

[LynnS]

53 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Oh? And how do you know that Rhaegar didn't agree to return in exchange for some concessions on Aerys's part?

Because it's pure speculation and projection and can't be proven that there is some kind of negotiating going on between Rhaegar and Aerys.  What we do know is that Gerold Hightower went to him and gave him his marching orders to return to King's Landing and that all three KG were following Aerys' orders to the end.

53 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Of course he didn't. Jon Arryn started the war, not Rhaegar, and he wouldn't have done so, had Aerys not demanded the heads of Ned and Robert. The Starks might have rebelled anyway because of the deaths of Rickard and Brandon but not just because of Lyanna. No-one called any banners after Lyanna's abduction.

Aerys and whomever was advising and manipulating him, started the war by killing Rickard and Brandon.There were plenty of reasons to remove him and for the banners to be called given the atrocities he commits in general.  Sending a letter to Jon Arryn to give up his wards and break his own pledge to protect was just the last straw.

ETA:

I can't discount the machinations behind the throne and those who are likely involved: Tywin Lannister and Varys.

Of the three mystery children; Varys is only interested in Dany and Aegon but not Jon.  He says that what he does is for the realm and the children.  I think he's talking about the targ bloodlines; Dany and Aegon.  I think it's a possibility that Aerys is the father of both children. Varys would know about it and take steps to hide them and use them.

Since we only know of one actual romance, Ned and Ashara; it makes sense to me that Jon is their son, the eldest of the three.  Otherwise Ned would probably never have got hold of him.  Jon is significant because he is product of the oldest bloodlines Dayne and Stark.  Dany as well because she is likely Ashara's daughter as well.  

How do we know that Rhaegar gets the prophecy right with regards to his own part in it. Dany herself gets things wrong when she misinterprets Quaithe's riddle: you must pass beneath the shadow to touch the light.    Dany immediately thinks of Asshai and so does the reader.  But we forget that when Dany first went with Khal Drogo to Vaes Dothrak; the place was also described as beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains.  Their high holy place, where Dany is heading at the end of DwD.

If Lyanna died as a result of childbirth at the end the war; then Aegon fits the bill rather than Jon and you have your Targ/Stark combo. .

[Ygrain]

34 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Because it's pure speculation and projection and can't be proven that there is some kind of negotiating going on between Rhaegar and Aerys.  What we do know is that Gerold Hightower went to him and gave him his marching orders to return to King's Landing and that all three KG were following Aerys' orders to the end.

We do know that after the hell broke lose, no-one knew where to find Rhaegar, yet Gerold Hightower somehow managed to find him after some time. That suggests one thing - communication from Rhaegar's side, as well as Rhaegar being the one determining that Lyanna is not to be brought to KL, even though, given the state of the war, she would have been a precious hostage. In fact, she would have been a hostage against the Rebels as well as Rhaegar himself to keep him in line, yet she stays far away and out of reach where she cannot be used against anyone.

34 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Aerys and whomever was advising and manipulating him, started the war by killing Rickard and Brandon.There were plenty of reasons to remove him and for the banners to be called given the atrocities he commits in general.  Sending a letter to Jon Arryn to give up his wards and break his own pledge to protect was just the last straw.

Indeed. Which means that the war really wasn't over Lyanna.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

We do know that after the hell broke lose, no-one knew where to find Rhaegar, yet Gerold Hightower somehow managed to find him after some time. That suggests one thing - communication from Rhaegar's side, as well as Rhaegar being the one determining that Lyanna is not to be brought to KL, even though, given the state of the war, she would have been a precious hostage. In fact, she would have been a hostage against the Rebels as well as Rhaegar himself to keep him in line, yet she stays far away and out of reach where she cannot be used against anyone.

I don't think that Rhaegar ever had control over Lyanna or that he took her in the first place. It seems a likely possibility that Aerys had her from the start and given his proclivities for bedding women that she ended up pregnant with his child. Then later moved by Varys to Dorne.  I favor Castle Wyl for the rest of her detention.  It may even be Gerold Hightower who escorted her before meeting up with Rhaegar.

[wolfmaid7]

11 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Er sorry Wolfmaid, but you're seriously misinformed. That's exactly what Beltaine is. That's what the word Beltaine actually means. Beal - bright, shining (possibly a direct reference to the god Bel/Belenos), tain - fire. It's the day in the Goidelic Celtic calendar where the arrival of spring is marked by the lighting of bel-fires. The 9th Century glossary of Cormac, surviving in the Book of Leinster describes Beltaine: "Two fires which Druids used to make with great incantations, and they used to bring the cattle against the diseases of each year to those fires. They used to drive the cattle between them." 

There are elements of Beltaine festivities which do appear to have found their way into the later English festivals, though they are probably overall more Germanic and Roman than Celtic in origin. In some instances there may have been as central pole or sacred tree in the fire, which might relate to later maypole traditions. Another commonly recorded Beltaine tradition is the garlanding of a bush, which certainly has echoes in those later traditions. Yet another was the sacrifice of a horse, which is possibly the origin of later 'obby 'oss  or old 'oss traditions, along with the welsh Mari Llewyd (grey horse). 

 

I'll come back to this and the other post later on

@Ned little girl ,Naath and Ygrain....I'll come back to you as well.

[wolfmaid7]

12 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

This is purely your interpretation and is based in no textual evidence.

The simplest interpretation from the text is this:

It actually isn't a matter of my interpretation.GRRM is the one who said this and he wasn't being fast or loose with his words in this instance.He is simply pointing out a social ideology that doesn't stand in the way of proving 100% who a child's parent is.And i will point out simplest doesn't mean correct,there seems to be confusion about things like that.This isn't rocket science 

Context is needed.Ned had only one bit of info coming into this....The Lannisters killed Jon Arryn.Therefore,when he was told Jon Arryn was reading from:

'The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms,With the Descriptions of Many High Lords,Noble Ladies and their Children."

He had only one point of reference whereby to look in that book anything else would imply he knew what he was looking for.It was the one lead he had...Lannisters

"There was something here,some truth behind these yellow brittle pages."<snip>"The tome was over a century old .Scarecly,a man now alive,had yet been born when Maellon had compiled his dust lists of wedding,births and death."

Note: The book was a bit over a hundread years as Ned said there were few men living who had been born when it was written.So we have an estimated time of the contents in the book....Moving on

"He opened to the section on House Lannister once more,and turned the pages slowly,hoping against all hope that something would leap out at him..(Got,Ned.pg 274).

So now we know what section Ned was looking at.Later on he goes to the garden confronts Cersie and she cops to the kids being Jamie's which prompts this thought from Ned.

"The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago,...Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad boar with a full head of black hair. ... No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal"

There you have it.Ned's context and what he got from it.Note to attributes are continually brought up.It was stated in the books and reaffirmed over and over.These kids are strong.

12 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The only piece of evidence in the books of how Lyanna felt about Robert, is indeed negative:

Sigh...No its not.

12 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

How does this point to Lyanna feeling any kind of "love" between them, leave sex? So R +L = J is invalid because we have no evidence of them ever having had even a conversation.....I'm waiting to see the text that proves RB + L had a conversation, were deeply in love and had sex.

And again, I'm sure these questions will be ignored, but:

- Why would Ned even have to keep the parentage secret? Why would his "broken promises" torment him after all these years?

- How would Ned have explained it if Jon had turned out looking like Robert, there were no Baratheon women of that generation? 

- What is Rhaegar's role in this? Did the guy kidnap Lyanna and keep her in the TOJ, taking full care of her so that she could carry this hypothetical pregnancy to Robert to term? and so on.

You misunderstand my meaning.Lyanna's statement doesn't "prove" love but it does touch on two important points.

1.This statement was made the night Lyanna found out they were to be married.They had been long bethrothed by the time of Harrenhal.They had plenty of time to spend with each other and they did Robert's feeling and Ned's affirmation of those feelings among other things prove that. The marriage wasn't just arranged and the next time Lyanna saw Robert was at the tourney.

2.We are given insight into a very subtle scenario.Lyanna's words and Ned's reply.

Lyanna:"Robert will never keep to one bed."

Ned: What Robert did before the bethrothal is of no consequnce that he would be true and love her.

How likely is it that Robert don't make a play during their long bethrothal and how likely it is Lyanna rebuffed him? What does she have a problem with? Not Robert keeping her bed.Well he can't keep to it,if he can't have whenever he chose.Nobody likes to here this but the only way for Robert to keep to one bed is to bang Lyanna and not stray and marriage or not that wasn't going to be a problem because from the connotation of her convo with Ned Lyanna was not going to guard her pussy from him.

3.I could think of a few reasons why Ned would have to keep this from Cat and Jon.

     a. Who surrounded Robert with when he took the throne and the danger to Jon being at court.Jon would be the step son to Cersie Lannister.And how you think it would go down in the Rock if Robert's heir was his legitimized bastard and not kids he would have by Cersie.Kid would be lucky to make it to 5.Coincidentallythe narrative has Cersie killing Robert's children who would be a threat to hers.

“Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he (Robert) had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please," she'd told him, "but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.”(AFFC,Cersie).

      b. Jon would still be seen  as a bastard depite Robert legitimizing him and he would.He was made in an unsanctified bed.

“The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another. Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal”---Egg to Dunk.

4.Ned would have faced  the same problem if Jon came out looking like Rhaegar with dark brown hair.So it rather convienient either way that he looks sooooo much like a Stark.And if you think about it @Naath that GRRM didn't have Jon with purple eyes and Stark features should raise some red flags for you guys.There was an out for Ned,people would have assumed even more that he had his bastard with Ashara.The maid with laughing purple eyes.

5.I think Rhaegar's role is uniquely tied to Dany.He has no connection in any way to Jon.But Robert does.

12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

“Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens" (ACOK)

Yeahhhhhh soooooo...That doesn't prove Robert can only have black haired children.What did GRRM say about these people not understanding how genetics work huh?Them not knowing how it works doesn't mean it doesn't work .

Double entendre,another  "black bastard" is on the Wall....Let that sink in.

12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

ROFLMAO.

Yeah i'm excluding the other evidence which is going to be compared to the ones you submit whenever you do and moving forward.Symbolisms are just that really and we can argue about that until the next book.Hence,focusing on the things that are not so opened to varied interpretation...Do you agree with that? We can argue the meaning of things but we can't argue facts, am i right Ygrain?

12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

What? "I am afraid that my future husband is going to cheat on me even though he loves me" is not a negative comment? 

No not really! Not when you look at where its coming from emotionally that is. It was a concern that she did have.Not an unrealistic one,what matters is was she correct? No.Ned was correct what Robert did before their bethrothal was inconsequential to his relationship with Lya.

Note: Place holder .Naath i don't know where you are getting this idea that i am not choosing to answer your questions.But these will serve to make sure i'll answer the ones that need more than one line to answer.

[Ygrain]

26 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeahhhhhh soooooo...That doesn't prove Robert can only have black haired children.What did GRRM say about these people not understanding how genetics work huh?Them not knowing how it works doesn't mean it doesn't work .

Double entendre,another  "black bastard" is on the Wall....Let that sink in.

It's an empiric observation which roused suspicion about Cersei's children. And genetics or not, the literary plot point is that so far, all of Robert's children were black-haired.

 

26 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah i'm excluding the other evidence which is going to be compared to the ones you submit whenever you do and moving forward.Symbolisms are just that really and we can argue about that until the next book.Hence,focusing on the things that are not so opened to varied interpretation...Do you agree with that? We can argue the meaning of things but we can't argue facts, am i right Ygrain?

Unless you claim for a fact something that is not.

And I was ROFLing at your assumption that you are the only person here who knows a fig about myths.

26 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

No not really! Not when you look at where its coming from emotionally that is. It was a concern that she did have.Not an unrealistic one,what matters is was she correct? No.Ned was correct what Robert did before their bethrothal was inconsequential to his relationship with Lya.

It is a concern about a possible, and probable, negative behaviour. Negative.