Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

[Lady Dyanna]

38 minutes ago, Tucu said:

This is the closes that we have in ASOIAF to a Belthane ritual/ May Day festival:

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

Do we know of any act during the False Spring that could have stopped the rebirth of Garth?

My guess.  The May queen did not become pregnant until later for some reason...

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

No. I agree. No one is knowingly performing a ritual at HH, but, I think what KM is saying is that if it's symbolic of a Beltane ritual where are the symbolic results. Why didn't the cycle continue as would be anticipated? 

The results was the rise of Robert (horned god) to the throne and the casting down of the Dragons.It was a time of change,a new path had been forged.As is what's suppose to happen.Jon's conception at Harrenhall would not alter the seasons.Spring is a time of fertility if anything the anomally is that winter broke, for a  spring.

Now,we have no idea how long winter lasted when it returned,what we do know is this summer has lasted 10yrs and according to Jon he was a babe in arms when it had started.So most likely he is a Winter child which would make sense.Seeded in a spring for winter.At which point Grrm can do anything with Jon.Have him be a bit lighter or darker.Flip the switch and have the darkness really be the light and have the light really be the darkness( this is where i believe Bran comes in).

2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I do agree that there is definitely reason to doubt the accuracy of what is believed to be the date of Dany's birth. I was thinking that a delayed conception date might make the timeline a bit more plausible all around. 

 

This i think might also yield more answers regarding Dany's role....I'm also in the camp that believe she's Rhaegar's daughter.

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

This is the closes that we have in ASOIAF to a Belthane ritual/ May Day festival:

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

Do we know of any act during the False Spring that could have stopped the rebirth of Garth?

Actually no it isn't.It is the only outright "tale" that is part of the ASOIAF myths that  speak of it. The Harrenhall tourney itself had strong elements of a great rite/sacred marriage.This has to do with the young horned god and the goddess coming together in  sexual union.

Emphasis horned god and goddess having sex.I think we are given this vey image symbolically in the first chapter of agot's

"It is a sign," Jory said.

Father frowned. "This is only a dead animal, Jory," he said. Yet he seemed troubled. Snow crunched under his boots as he moved around the body. "Do we know what killed her?"

"There's something in the throat," Robb told him, proud to have found the answer before his father even asked. "There, just under the jaw."

His father knelt and groped under the beast's head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow. "I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell Bran 1.

 

In other words :

"A Stag tine penetrated the She -wolf and she whelped."

 

[wolfmaid7]

This was the quote i was trying to find that again sheds a bit of light on the  whole Rhaella leaving DS situation.

"Jon watched unblinking. He dare not appear squeamish before his brothers. He had ordered out two hundred men, more than half the garrison of Castle Black. Mounted in solemn sable ranks with tall spears in hand, they had drawn up their hoods to shadow their faces … and hide the fact that so many were greybeards and green boys. The free folk feared the Watch. Jon wanted them to take that fear with them to their new homes south of the Wall." Jon,3 ADWD.

I think it highly,highly likely the hooded cloak was to conceal that it really wasn't the queen.

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The results was the rise of Robert (horned god) to the throne and the casting down of the Dragons.It was a time of change,a new path had been forged.As is what's suppose to happen.Jon's conception at Harrenhall would not alter the seasons.Spring is a time of fertility if anything the anomally is that winter broke, for a  spring.

Thanks for this explanation.  Most of what I know about this has come primarily from either you or similar essays and limited research... I was looking at Robert as the "old" horned god as opposed to a new one and seeing Jon in the role of the new god.

There's also, IMO, some tricky speech in the passage where Mormont tells Jon of his father's death that could actually be taken for representing Robert as his father and taking on Robert's role.

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Now,we have no idea how long winter lasted when it returned,what we do know is this summer has lasted 10yrs and according to Jon he was a babe in arms when it had started.So most likely he is a Winter child which would make sense.Seeded in a spring for winter

It is funny that they never really tell when the seasons change.  We know there was a return of winter at the end of the tournament and that summer has lasted ten years, but we have no idea what happened in the four to five years in between.

 

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

At which point Grrm can do anything with Jon.Have him be a bit lighter or darker.Flip the switch and have the darkness really be the light and have the light really be the darkness( this is where i believe Bran comes in).

I think that you're correct that Bran is due for a flip.  He mirrors the Night's King quite well. Jon seems to hold more to the archetype of the last hero.  Are they one in the same, or opposite sides of the coin? I guess only time will tell for sure.

 

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

....I'm also in the camp that believe she's Rhaegar's daughter.

Yep...

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This was the quote i was trying to find that again sheds a bit of light on the  whole Rhaella leaving DS situation.

"Jon watched unblinking. He dare not appear squeamish before his brothers. He had ordered out two hundred men, more than half the garrison of Castle Black. Mounted in solemn sable ranks with tall spears in hand, they had drawn up their hoods to shadow their faces … and hide the fact that so many were greybeards and green boys. The free folk feared the Watch. Jon wanted them to take that fear with them to their new homes south of the Wall." Jon,3 ADWD.

I think it highly,highly likely the hooded cloak was to conceal that it really wasn't the queen.

Except that the Night's Watch cloaks are drawn up to hide their conditions (too old or too young), not their identities.

So, applying this example, Queen Rhaella was cloaked and hooded to hide her condition (bruised and injured from her beating by her husband), not her identity.

Still not convincing.

 

[wolfmaid7]

41 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Thanks for this explanation.  Most of what I know about this has come primarily from either you or similar essays and limited research... I was looking at Robert as the "old" horned god as opposed to a new one and seeing Jon in the role of the new god.

There's also, IMO, some tricky speech in the passage where Mormont tells Jon of his father's death that could actually be taken for representing Robert as his father and taking on Robert's role.

Well the Targs had been in power what 300 yrs or so.So Robert would really be the first.We even have a nice parallel of the same with Renly and Stannis with Stannis being Oak and Renly being Holly both,both Stag ( and a cudoes to LML) for pointing out that Stannis and Renly were in the "brothers incarnation of the Oak and Holly king myth". Robert is the total package,several of the archetypes in one.From the hunter,warrior,the f**ker,drinker then we see him as the jolly fat man with rosy cheeks and sparkles in his eyes.To him getting taken out by and taking out a horned beast in the woods.

Dido on the tricky speech.I found several of that as well.

54 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

It is funny that they never really tell when the seasons change.  We know there was a return of winter at the end of the tournament and that summer has lasted ten years, but we have no idea what happened in the four to five years in between.

 

More info to come later i guess.

 

55 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I think that you're correct that Bran is due for a flip.  He mirrors the Night's King quite well. Jon seems to hold more to the archetype of the last hero.  Are they one in the same, or opposite sides of the coin? I guess only time will tell for sure.

Yep, before the 98 letter came out i predicted on Heresy that Bran and Jon will be at odds.They most likely are going to revise that Oak Holly role.It may end up with Jon taking Bran out and unifying it,or Rickon taking Bran's role in Winter fell as i think he may be heading to do.But who knows.

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Except that the Night's Watch cloaks are drawn up to hide their conditions (too old or too young), not their identities.

So, applying this example, Queen Rhaella was cloaked and hooded to hide her condition (bruised and injured from her beating by her husband), not her identity.

Still not convincing.

Your thinking about this to literal. I don't think the hoods were drawn up to conceal individual "their identities".I don't think the Free folk cared who was exactly under the cloak. The point of the cloaks was to preserve the image that the free folk had of the Watch. The point was still to conceal the persona of the Watch period.This faceless force that threathened them .If the Free folk saw there was nothing to fear then they might try some shit.

Back to Jamie and the language GRRM had him use.Its all about perception. He(Jamie) expected that was the queen. He deduced based on what he heard on an occassion and what the maidservants said the morning  of the.day he saw her leave.It's Rhaella he had no reason to assume it was someone else.

Again all GRRM had to have Jamie say was " he saw the Queen getting into the carriage."

Secondly,Aerys to my knowledge didn't beat up Rhaella, he engaged in rough sex...So unless he gave her some black eye or something your point it moot.

I own a couple of medieval gowns, Renn Faire purposes.One of the court and a simpler one, and that is more than adequate to cover bruises.So unless Rhaegella was wearing a "batty rider" to show a clawed up thigh and a very low top to show clawed and bitten up breasts your point is moot.Maybe i'm mistaken and Aerys used used his Queen as a punching bag.Can you furnish that though.

[Frey family reunion]

On August 25, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Sly Wren said:

I struggle to make the timeline work for Howland as Jon's father. 

But the imagery that @Frey family reunion put together is amazing.

So, I'm wondering if the pagan rite of spring got . . . violated by Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna. Broke what should have happened?

Might even explain why the false spring was false. The Dragon Prince broke the spring?

I came across another image in the books that might also link Howland and Lyanna. I do agree that Lyanna's "abduction" does seem to be a bit of a nod to the rape of Persephone by Hades, where he abducts her and takes her to the underworld to be his bride.  Which makes me think that the following quote (and first mention of Howland in the books) could be a sly parallele between death and marriage:

Quote

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up he hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.  After that he remembered nothing.  They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.  The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.

It occurred to me that this could be a sly allusion to a wedding.  Where Eddard gives away the bride to the groom, and the groom takes the bride's hand from the one giving her away.

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It occurred to me that this could be a sly allusion to a wedding.  Where Eddard gives away the bride to the groom, and the groom takes the bride's hand from the one giving her away.

Oooooo that's a nice one Frey Family Reunon.

[Kingmonkey]

On 26/08/2016 at 3:14 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

You and i will continue to go back and forth on this, needless to say i disagree.Let's start with the obvious which is- and i've said this before.No one,no character was actively doing a "Great rite/sacred marriage ritual" ,as far as the characters in story were concerned they were all going to a tournament.

We're discussing a THEMATIC element. Nobody said this was literally happening in world. I'm talking about following the thematic reasoning.

Quote

That was there intent at that event.Robert is the horned god because GRRM stamped him that way "he" created a character that is exactly,exactly a representation of the Horned god.He created an event where there are multiple elements of the Great rite  to a tee which indicates strongly that Robert and Lyanna who "he" decided to superimpose these attributes unto in a setting of a great rite had sex.There is no point,absolutely no point putting that in when it would not be needed otherwise unless it followed through.

Unless he was using it in a different manner than you suppose. Such as showing an event that did not go as planned. I agree that Robert and Lyanna are presented here as parallels to the roles of Horned God and Maiden in a mayday rite. I disagree with the idea that their being set up in that role demands that they followed through. The story of Robert and Lyanna is the story of a marriage that did not take place, with tragic results. I'd suggest that applies to the thematic parallel to the sacred marriage as well. 

Quote

Also a bit of a correction on your notion that any ritual at Beltane  is suppose to cause spring to happen.That's not what its about so spring coming or not has nothing to do with it.They did exactly what they were suppose to have done.Spring came and they celebrated with a tournament.Spring comes and we celebrate at that point on the wheel,we have nothing to do with if it comes or not.

Spring did not come. There was a false spring. Why? Thematically, why did GRRM even include this notion of a false spring? We have two ideas -- the spring ritual and a false spring -- in close proximity. Surely that's no coincidence.

You can argue for the ritual bringing the spring or celebrating it; the point isn't really pertinent, but it's the nature of sacred ritual that these two things are not unconnected. As above, so below. Sympathetic magic. Whatever, the key point is the return to fertility. Sacred kingship is fundamentally linked to the fertility of the land. Whether the act of sex between the sacred king and the maiden is what propels or what marks the return of the land to fertility isn't important here, what's important is that the land did not return to fertility after all, as expected. Spring was supposed to have arrived; it didn't. The horned king was supposed to bonk the maiden; by extension, he didn't.

As you said, we're not going to agree on this one. I think you did really great work on the Horned King stuff, but stopped when you got the "right" conclusion rather than following your own thematic logic. Clearly Robert + Lyanna was what was supposed to happen. So was spring. The logical conclusion is that if spring didn't happen, nor did Robert+Lyanna.

Quote

So there's no way Kingmonkey.I'm sorry but this is one of those things i believe "timeliners" are very wrong on. There's no way this is going to be solved with simple arithmatic and playing magical hats between two Kgs and Rhaegar who may or may not have been with Lyanna.

Most of your timeline issues can be shortcut. Forget the 9 months thing, forget timeline flexibility. If Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, he's a good year older than anyone believed. That, right there, is the biggest timeline issue that your theory has to face. That Ned could successfully pass off an eighteen month old toddler as a three month old baby stretches credibility.

This timeline issue of course only arises if you require Harrenhal to be the time the deed was done. I f you were to accept the whole false spring thing and look for a way that Robert might have fathered Jon on Lyanna much later, I think you could have built a much stronger case. 

Quote

"Jon was born 9 moths after Dany" is not a marker to determine Jon's birthday because:

1.The identity of the woman "hooded and cloaked" is certainly not Rhaella....The language GRRM used and the fact is a dead giveaway.There's no reason to throw in "She was claoked and hooded" GRRM could have just had Jamie said he saw Rhaella ad leave it at that.The fact that he threw in "Cloaked and hooded" is meant is a clue that some of us take to mean that woman was not Rhaella.

"Certainly not Rhaella"? Come on, you're drastically overstating the case. Arguably not, sure. Certainly not, no way. 

Lots of people are cloaked and hooded without being someone else. Arryn was cloaked and hooded when he went to see Gendry, when he was trying to avoid drawing attention to his presence. Cersei was cloaked and hooded when going to meet Ned with a bruised face. Wighted Othor is cloaked and hooded when sneaking into Mormont's chamber. Melissande is cloaked and hooded when she first meets Cat at the parley. Edric Storm is cloaked and hooded when being snuck out of Dragonstone. Lady Stoneheart is cloaked and hooded.  Tyrion and Penny go through the Second Son's camp cloaked and hooded. The Brazen Beasts are all cloaked and hooded. 

There are also many instances of people pulling up the hoods of their cloaks against the cold, but we can ignore those. There are many instances of people wearing hooded cloaks to avoid drawing attention to themselves or their appearance. That's what Rhaella was doing. In three instances -- Cersei, Lady Stoneheart and Other -- they were hiding facial injuries that would attract attention. In two of those cases, GRRM uses the exact phrase "cloaked and hooded" that he uses for Rhaella. 

It's very clear why GRRM added the "cloaked and hooded" bit, because it's right there in Jaime's memory of the event:

Quote

The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

AFFC ch.16

"The queen had been cloaked and hooded ... but..." -- the "but" connects her being cloaked and hooded with the whispering of the maids that the queen looked like some beast had savaged her. In Jaime's mind, she was cloaked and hooded to hide her injuries.

Of course it's possible that Jaime's assumption was wrong and it was in fact someone else pretending to be the queen, but there's literally nothing to indicate that.  Her being cloaked and hooded certainly can't be considered some fait accompli proof of a false identity when every other usage of it works differently. In fact the phrase "cloaked and hooded" occurs 5 other times in the books. In 4 of those cases it's someone hiding facial injuries. In the fifth it describes people who have been savaged by a beast. That seems pretty compelling. 

Quote

2. If this  could be solved with simple math and playing  magical hats between Arthur and Rhaegar /process of elimination.It was never a mystery to begin with.

It's a mystery, but that doesn't mean it's insoluble.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

The fact grrm chose the Baratheons to have "god's blood" is also something to think about besides calling Robert the horned god... why not the starks? the lannisters? the targs? why the house that has the fewest members talked about in history with a poorly fertile land and extreme martial culture? i don´t believe he tossed a coin in a table with the great houses symbols on it

[wolfmaid7]

17 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Unless he was using it in a different manner than you suppose. Such as showing an event that did not go as planned. I agree that Robert and Lyanna are presented here as parallels to the roles of Horned God and Maiden in a mayday rite. I disagree with the idea that their being set up in that role demands that they followed through. The story of Robert and Lyanna is the story of a marriage that did not take place, with tragic results. I'd suggest that applies to the thematic parallel to the sacred marriage as well. 

Unfortunately, i don't see that it happened any differently,specifically i don't see that they didn't have sex at Harrenhall and concieve Jon..Besides the symbolism the atmosphere was right for two people who were bethrothed getting a bit freaky.Secondly,Kingmonkey Lyanna and Robert not getting married doesn't exclude that under the right circumstances they could have had sex.While marriage and the marriage bed is a sacred thing in this series;we have seen occassions,several where people didn't adhere to that. Some arguements are a win some are a lose and i think this one you can't win. If its reduced to George doesn't have to follow through then every prospect is in the same boat.

What i find even more odd about your rebuttal is one minute your arguing that George won't be to literal,while in the next breath arguing that its not literal enough. The point of the great rite in Beltane is that its about bringing about change,prosperity,removing the old etc. THAT  did happen.The Targs after 300 yrs of their rule and ways were made low by Robert's war hammer.

Lastly,you call can't assert and be confident in what you are saying and be offended that others are.This is the case Robert and Lyanna did happen and only time will tell whose right or wrong.This goes together like a hand in a glove so to speak.

17 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Lots of people are cloaked and hooded without being someone else. Arryn was cloaked and hooded when he went to see Gendry, when he was trying to avoid drawing attention to his presence. Cersei was cloaked and hooded when going to meet Ned with a bruised face. Wighted Othor is cloaked and hooded when sneaking into Mormont's chamber. Melissande is cloaked and hooded when she first meets Cat at the parley. Edric Storm is cloaked and hooded when being snuck out of Dragonstone. Lady Stoneheart is cloaked and hooded.  Tyrion and Penny go through the Second Son's camp cloaked and hooded. The Brazen Beasts are all cloaked and hooded. 

There are also many instances of people pulling up the hoods of their cloaks against the cold, but we can ignore those. There are many instances of people wearing hooded cloaks to avoid drawing attention to themselves or their appearance. That's what Rhaella was doing. In three instances -- Cersei, Lady Stoneheart and Other -- they were hiding facial injuries that would attract attention. In two of those cases, GRRM uses the exact phrase "cloaked and hooded" that he uses for Rhaella

 Kingmonkey you know you are proving my point with these examples do you. Arryan was claoked and hooded when he went to see Gendry because he didn't want anyone to see it was him.He was concealing his identity.Cersie was cloaked and hooded because she didn't want anyone to see it was "her" going to see her brother.Othor was cloaked and hooded because without it,it would be evident with his blue eyes and the fact that you know his body was on display for the entire watch to see earlier.Edric storm is cloaked and hooded because they didn't want anyone to know who was being snuck out of Dragonstone.

Lady Stone heart was cloaked and hooded for the benefit of a reveal for th readers who were like "Oh shit,she's alive" Melisandre is Melissandre and that adds to her mystery.

Every example you gave,everyone we know because we saw of the character who was claoked and hooded told us so etc. To the looker they didn't know who was under the claok which is the point.

1.Arryn walking through down town Flea bottom was unknown to the Whore on the corner,the smith pounding at his anvil,the soldier on the corner having a smoke.

2.To the soldiers telling stories by the fire,or shoeing horses,sharpening weapons Cersie was really wench gone to stroke the Kingslayes cock.

You see where i'm going with this.We now through Jamie's POV see through the eyes of a person seeing what he expects to see while seeing nothing.He sees a woman hooded and cloaked and several things collide to let him think its Rhaella

1. He heard that she was going to be packed off to head to DS.

2.He heard the maidservants say what exactly...Was he at his post while theu passed and heard " You should have seen her,her breast was all clawed up and her poor thighs to" and make a deduction based on what he heard outside the queen'c chambers.

3. The claoked figure was getting into the "royal" carriage so obviously its the queen.

I agree with you with 100% GRRM is giving us Jamie's memory of that day.He saw a cloaked and hooded figure and thought it was the queen.Be the looker my friend what and who are all these people seeing?

17 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

It's a mystery, but that doesn't mean it's insoluble.

I hate to disgree ,but i disagree.Based on what constituites a mystery this isn't.The very definition of a mystery is:

Something that is difficult.It is a puzzle,and enigma,a problem a riddle.This is neither.

This aint,

" Out of the hunter came,meat to eat.Out of the strong came something sweet" kind of riddle

This timeline that proponents say is it,is a 

What has a face and two hands but no arms or legs" kind of riddle.

 

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

17 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

If Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, he's a good year older than anyone believed. That, right there, is the biggest timeline issue that your theory has to face. That Ned could successfully pass off an eighteen month old toddler as a three month old baby stretches credibility.

This is a good question....How do we reconcile that Jon would be 18 month old and be passed off as a toddler.First,and to sound like a broken record the whole timeline is just messed up when you factor in the Siege of Storm End taking place an entire year etc.I will leave all of that out.

Ned isn't passing off his son as an 18mth old,that unfortunately is a creation of fans.Ned has only ever done one thing.Let anyone and everyone draw their own conclusion about Jon;denying nothing,validating nothing.He has been completely,mum on the subject of Jon.

And that has created a situation whereby people in authority have crafted all these characteristic about bastards to avoid the truth,the uncomfortable truth.Jon is older than the Lord's legitamate son.I speak ofcourse about those intimately close to the family because let's face it.The rest of Westeros don't know who came first and they don't care because they have other things to worry about.

Consider the story of the Fisherman's daughter Jon would be clearly older than Robb.Does anyone care? Nope,does anyone actively notice that to care? Nope.

Consider Maester Luuwin's statement "  to whomever Jon heard it from ." Master Luuwin says Bastards grow up faster than other children" 

I'm not speaking about bigger,stronger,taller etc i'm talking about puberty being a man which in this world is measured by getting a beard,hair in places,maybe Jon's voice switched before Robb's.

So let's predict ,what the question could have been about and whom to illicit this reply from Maester Luuwin? 

Even when people notice,they avoid going down a path that's uncomfortable.

[Ygrain]

On 27. 8. 2016 at 2:39 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

"A Stag tine penetrated the She -wolf and she whelped."

A little correction here:

The She-wolf IMPREGNATED BY SOMEONE ELSE.

If Lyanna went into labour after receiving news of Rhaegar's death by Robert's hand, the symbolism would fit then, but I think that any interpretation of the stag-direwolf scene in any other way than House Baratheon bringing down House Stark is far-fetched. As is equalling of an antler-stabbing wound with sexual penetration, at least without any further textual support. Which, given that the she-wolf had been far in her pregnancy, is sorely lacking here.

 

[Ygrain]

Also, in which mythology is the Horned god supposed to be cuckolded and bring impoverishment and downfall of the realm? While Robert's hunting, whoring and the like is definitely a horned god thing, these aspects are not - GRRM is using only a part of the myth (and pretty ironically, given that the Horned god has horns like no other man in Westeros), so making far-reaching conclusions based on the whole myth is definitely incorrect.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 25-8-2016 at 7:54 PM, LynnS said:

It seems that Hoster Tully was not at the tourney and the question is why.  This is a huge event with the King attending; surely attendance was mandatory.  

Tywin Lannister did not attend because he felt insulted. The king had just stolen his heir, after all.

Hoster had every right to feel just as insulted. His daughter was supposed to marry Jaime, and the betrothal had almost been agreed upon, when Aerys named Jaime to his KG. That Holster chose to be absent from the tourney where Jaime would swear his vows, makes sense.

 

On 25-8-2016 at 7:54 PM, LynnS said:

The note that Brandon recieves before his wedding taking him on some unknown errand. 

What note? 

[wolfmaid7]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

A little correction here:

The She-wolf IMPREGNATED BY SOMEONE ELSE.

If Lyanna went into labour after receiving news of Rhaegar's death by Robert's hand, the symbolism would fit then, but I think that any interpretation of the stag-direwolf scene in any other way than House Baratheon bringing down House Stark is far-fetched. As is equalling of an antler-stabbing wound with sexual penetration, at least without any further textual support. Which, given that the she-wolf had been far in her pregnancy, is sorely lacking here.

 

I don't see any "correction" here Ygrain,i see your interpretation.See the difference? Let's throw out Rhaegar's lance dropping flowers in Lyanna's as an allusion to him having sex with her and giving her a baby,oh and AA stabbing Nissa Nissa to with his sword while we are at it.

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Also, in which mythology is the Horned god supposed to be cuckolded and bring impoverishment and downfall of the realm? While Robert's hunting, whoring and the like is definitely a horned god thing, these aspects are not - GRRM is using only a part of the myth (and pretty ironically, given that the Horned god has horns like no other man in Westeros), so making far-reaching conclusions based on the whole myth is definitely incorrect.

Are you serous with this statement? Not only is nonsense it is void of the context of the story.GRRM in addition to superimposing this figure onto Robert,made Robert human and multi-dimentional. A real man, with real problems.With a backstory filled with pain and loss and flaws that make him human.Else all he would be is a figure from myth that to its core is one dimentional.

And no one is reaching,you just can't accept that there is more than one interpretation of GRRM's text and it may not end with Rhaegar as Jon's daddy.

But here's the challenge to you and compadres let's dispense with all this nonsense and get down to buisness and line this up side by side.

Starting with this love story you all are fond of telling: This goes for all the others as well.We have been kind of circling the drain with one.

The Rhaegar camp believes that they have this on lock so let's play the game of :

.

[wolfmaid7]

                                                                         WHO DONE IT BETTER

TEST 1.

So here we go people, Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love with eachother.Let's have the proof or better yet the foundation for that belief and line it up against the other proponents belief of love.

[Tucu]

On 27/08/2016 at 1:39 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Actually no it isn't.It is the only outright "tale" that is part of the ASOIAF myths that  speak of it. The Harrenhall tourney itself had strong elements of a great rite/sacred marriage.This has to do with the young horned god and the goddess coming together in  sexual union.

Emphasis horned god and goddess having sex.I think we are given this vey image symbolically in the first chapter of agot's

"It is a sign," Jory said.

Father frowned. "This is only a dead animal, Jory," he said. Yet he seemed troubled. Snow crunched under his boots as he moved around the body. "Do we know what killed her?"

"There's something in the throat," Robb told him, proud to have found the answer before his father even asked. "There, just under the jaw."

His father knelt and groped under the beast's head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow. "I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell Bran 1.

In other words :

"A Stag tine penetrated the She -wolf and she whelped."

Ok, but this is not really how they explained the process in sex ed class :-)

[wolfmaid7]

47 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Ok, but this is not really how they explained the process in sex ed class :-)

Hahaha...Its all about the symbolism.