Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 It's obvious that you're not comfortable holding her up to any sort of standard regarding this particular issue. The comparisons to Trump in regards to this are not relevant to me, as I have zero investment in Trump. I cannot imagine the set of circumstances that would have to occur that would result in me casting a vote for Trump. I've written him off. I'm not letting him get away with shit. I'm holding her to a standard that doesn't apply to Trump. He clearly doesn't have any. When she behaves in a manner that is comparable to his, I'm disappointed. I expect more of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 5 minutes ago, Kalbear said: No, I'm asking. What did she lie about with respect to pneumonia? As far as I can tell she simply didn't tell people she had it. No one asked her if she was ill on Friday, and she didn't say 'no, I'm fine'. You have to be kidding about her lying, right? So your position is that there is nothing to see here, and it's much ado about nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris the Blade Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: It's obvious that you're not comfortable holding her up to any sort of standard regarding this particular issue. The comparisons to Trump in regards to this are not relevant to me, as I have zero investment in Trump. I cannot imagine the set of circumstances that would have to occur that would result in me casting a vote for Trump. I've written him off. I'm not letting him get away with shit. I'm holding her to a standard that doesn't apply to Trump. He clearly doesn't have any. When she behaves in a manner that is comparable to his, I'm disappointed. I expect more of her. Where has she acted in a comparable manner to Trump? I haven't seen her insult someone with a disability, women, minorities, veterans, generals, the lgbtqia community etc. I also haven't seen her have fraudulent businesses in her name or it being investigated then in another pay off an attorney to avoid an investigation or charges in another state for the same thing. Call to commit war crimes, use nukes etc. So just curious as to how she has acted similarly to Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 11 minutes ago, Kalbear said: No, I'm asking. What did she lie about with respect to pneumonia? As far as I can tell she simply didn't tell people she had it. No one asked her if she was ill on Friday, and she didn't say 'no, I'm fine'. However, people did ask on Sunday after the near-collapse. Up until the point where her doctor finally admitted that she has pneumonia, both Clinton's responses and those of her campaign were a mix of outright lies, equivocations and diversions. They all knew the diagnosis since Friday, but kept it under wraps until it became obvious that questions about her health won't go away and she is physically incapable of maintaining her schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 16 minutes ago, Kalbear said: What did she lie about, though? She never said that she doesn't have pneumonia or an illness. She simply didn't disclose it. That's not lying. Her campaign has downplayed her health issues for months. If you feel the need to parse, then fine, perhaps they weren't outright lies and they didn't come directly out of her mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 7 minutes ago, Harakiri said: Where has she acted in a comparable manner to Trump? I haven't seen her insult someone with a disability, women, minorities, veterans, generals, the lgbtqia community etc. I also haven't seen her have fraudulent businesses in her name or it being investigated then in another pay off an attorney to avoid an investigation or charges in another state for the same thing. Call to commit war crimes, use nukes etc. So just curious as to how she has acted similarly to Trump. You and others continue to compare Trump's lies to hers. I'm saying that none of that matters to me as I have no expectation of truth or reasonability from Trump. I have expectations of her. When she fails to meet those expectations, I have no problem calling her out for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 24 minutes ago, Kalbear said: What did she lie about, though? She never said that she doesn't have pneumonia or an illness. She simply didn't disclose it. That's not lying. Just last week Clinton was trying to pass off her coughing fits as seasonal allergies, when it was obvious that it was something much more serious. There was video of her hacking up a huge wad of phlegm into her cup of water during a speech. That happens because of an infection, not from seasonal allergies. It's clear that Clinton and her campaign were hoping that they could get past her illness without anyone finding out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Mudguard said: I hear this excuse as a justification for Clinton's secrecy, but when has she been proactively transparent and been attacked for what's she's revealed? Do you have any examples? It's a historic problem, not from this campaign: but if you go back to when she was mostly being interviewed as Bill's wife, she got slaughtered for being herself and being open all the time. For example, she got slaughtered because she said she wasn't a stay-at-home mom but preferred to have a career: this was misrepresented as disparaging stay-at-home moms. She was open about her political beliefs: this got her comparisons to Lady MacBeth and Winnie Mandela. She was open about the fact that she was the major earner in the household: this got her painted as greedy and unfeminine. Anything she said or did was twisted in the media to make her look evil. You can understand if she is now neurotic about controlling media perceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 18 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Her campaign has downplayed her health issues for months. If you feel the need to parse, then fine, perhaps they weren't outright lies and they didn't come directly out of her mouth. Having pneumonia and being diagnosed on Friday about it is not 'downplaying her health issues'. She doesn't have health issues any more than my son did when he got pneumonia out of the blue. This is, frankly, total bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 11 minutes ago, Mudguard said: Just last week Clinton was trying to pass off her coughing fits as seasonal allergies, when it was obvious that it was something much more serious. There was video of her hacking up a huge wad of phlegm into her cup of water during a speech. That happens because of an infection, not from seasonal allergies. It's clear that Clinton and her campaign were hoping that they could get past her illness without anyone finding out. And just last week that's what she thought it was. She got diagnosed on Friday. She said it wasn't a big deal earlier than that. Which...was the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 21 minutes ago, Altherion said: However, people did ask on Sunday after the near-collapse. Up until the point where her doctor finally admitted that she has pneumonia, both Clinton's responses and those of her campaign were a mix of outright lies, equivocations and diversions. They all knew the diagnosis since Friday, but kept it under wraps until it became obvious that questions about her health won't go away and she is physically incapable of maintaining her schedule. Yes, shockingly they didn't state her medical history and break her privacy until after she gave the okay, a few hours later. They didn't say anything prior to that that was a lie, either - the notion that it was 'a mix of outright lies' is bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Ha.... The more things change, the more they stay the same..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, Swordfish said: Ha.... The more things change, the more they stay the same..... Yes, for instance - not contributing to the conversation and providing any actual facts, data or even meaningful observations is precisely what we have come to expect from some posters, and that has not changed. Seriously, it's like my son saying that his back hurt for 6 months was a 'lie' because he got diagnosed with cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris the Blade Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 28 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: You and others continue to compare Trump's lies to hers. I'm saying that none of that matters to me as I have no expectation of truth or reasonability from Trump. I have expectations of her. When she fails to meet those expectations, I have no problem calling her out for it. You don't get to try and say what Trump says is irrelevant to you when you brought him into it as well by saying when she acts in a comparable manner to him you are disappointed because you expect better. You also fail to give any examples of how she acts in a comparable manner to him. Also, you seemingly have an unrealistic view based upon purity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 8 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Yes, for instance - not contributing to the conversation and providing any actual facts, data or even meaningful observations is precisely what we have come to expect from some posters, and that has not changed. Seriously, it's like my son saying that his back hurt for 6 months was a 'lie' because he got diagnosed with cancer. There have been pages of discussion about this. It's clear nothing is going to convince you that HRC or her campaign can do any wrong. The information is there, you are just blind to it. I'm genuinely sorry about your son. That's extremely shitty, and I wish him a full and speedy recovery. But it's not comparable to anything happening here. ETA: Just for funsies, what is your response to the accusations that it is irresponsible for her to be out in public exposing others even after she was diagnosed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, Swordfish said: There have been pages of discussion about this. It's clear nothing is going to convince you that HRC or her campaign can do any wrong. I think she did do wrong. What she didn't do is lie. 4 minutes ago, Swordfish said: The information is there, you are just blind to it. Yes, I'm blind to how she lied, because she didn't. 4 minutes ago, Swordfish said: I'm genuinely sorry about your son. That's extremely shitty, and I wish him a full and speedy recovery. But it's not comparable to anything happening here. It absolutely is. Clinton saying on Thursday that she has a cough or allergies is true based on what information she has, just like my son saying he had a back injury to the school was true based on what information he had. When it turned out he had cancer, he wasn't lying about what he said before. He was incorrect. 4 minutes ago, Swordfish said: ETA: Just for funsies, what is your response to the accusations that it is irresponsible for her to be out in public exposing others even after she was diagnosed? Depends a lot on the diagnosis. Pneumonia can be really contagious or really benign depending on what kind it is and how long it's along. I think it certainly could be irresponsible. It's still not a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 If Hillary was diagnosed with a type of contagious pneumonia, yeah fucked up for her to till be out there. Otherwise, its just some shit that happens to people. Can it be dangerous? Sure. It can also just be some shit you get over in a couple weeks. This is being blown up like it's some kind of indication that she can't serve a four year term. I will vote for HRC most likely, but cannot stand her bellicosity and corporate / wall street ties. To me this is the cost of doing business. Do you know how many of my grandmother's friends have had pneumonia in the last decade? Like half of them, and they are all in their 80s and 90s. "Oh. Just pneumonia again, makes it a Baker's dozen, back at bridge and bingo next week". 67 year old woman has pneumonia, likely to recover and live another 20 years. Here's Tom with the weather. Fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, Kalbear said: I think she did do wrong. What she didn't do is lie. Yes, I'm blind to how she lied, because she didn't. It absolutely is. Clinton saying on Thursday that she has a cough or allergies is true based on what information she has, just like my son saying he had a back injury to the school was true based on what information he had. When it turned out he had cancer, he wasn't lying about what he said before. He was incorrect. Depends a lot on the diagnosis. Pneumonia can be really contagious or really benign depending on what kind it is and how long it's along. I think it certainly could be irresponsible. It's still not a lie. Ha. The campaign came out as late as Sunday and said she was simply feeling 'overheated'. Your standard of what constitutes a lie here seems dubiously high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 9 minutes ago, Harakiri said: You don't get to try and say what Trump says is irrelevant to you when you brought him into it as well by saying when she acts in a comparable manner to him you are disappointed because you expect better. You also fail to give any examples of how she acts in a comparable manner to him. Yes I do.When a large part of your response is "but look at what Trump has said or done" it is truly irrelevant to me, because I do not consider him to be a viable candidate. I only brought him into it because you and others keep bringing him up. When she exhibits a lack of transparency, she acts in a comparable manner to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, Swordfish said: Ha. The campaign came out as late as Sunday and said she was simply feeling 'overheated'. Your standard of what constitutes a lie here seems dubiously high. It was literally 4 hours later. And her being overheated is, ya know, accurate. What the campaign didn't say outright is breaking a person's medical privacy. Your standard of what constitutes a lie is absurdly low, and targeted specifically towards one candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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