Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

[WSmith84]

2 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I have to admit, though, that I would be a lot more comfortable if George had aged some of these really young characters up a few years - not just for the Lyanna/Rhaegar dynamic but Dany/Drogo (which has other issues as well) and San/San.

Dany-Drogo is a very big 'what the hell were you thinking George' thing for me. It's not just the age-gap, but the clear maturity and power gap. Not to mention that in the next chapter Dany is weeping when being taken by Drogo; that makes it sound like rape, whether George intended it too or not. And the whole point of the wedding night (I assume) was to show that Drogo wasn't a complete barbarian.

[Wall Flower]

11 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Dany-Drogo is a very big 'what the hell were you thinking George' thing for me. It's not just the age-gap, but the clear maturity and power gap. Not to mention that in the next chapter Dany is weeping when being taken by Drogo; that makes it sound like rape, whether George intended it too or not. And the whole point of the wedding night (I assume) was to show that Drogo wasn't a complete barbarian.

I agree. I glad in a way that Dany's first experience wasn't depicted as completely brutal but her responses on the wedding night don't really ring entirely true to me given her youth, inexperience and the forced circumstances. The show was probably more realistic but had the problem of making it even harder to believe Dany's subsequent feelings for Drogo. The saving grace is probably that at some level Dany does recognise the wrongfulness of her being sold to Drogo, hence her strong identification with slaves.

It's probably why I'm torn on the Lyanna/Rhaegar issue, assuming that Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert and went with Rhaegar willingly (which obviously Wolfmaid disputes). Whatever the issues, I'm still more comfortable with the idea of Lyanna being in a bed she wanted to be in, rather than one she was forced into by her family. Hopefully, we'll eventually know the full story (or at least as much of it as George wants to give us).

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Yeah. GRRM doesn't really write normal,healthy love stories.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

I agree. I glad in a way that Dany's first experience wasn't depicted as completely brutal but her responses on the wedding night don't really ring entirely true to me given her youth, inexperience and the forced circumstances. The show was probably more realistic but had the problem of making it even harder to believe Dany's subsequent feelings for Drogo. The saving grace is probably that at some level Dany does recognise the wrongfulness of her being sold to Drogo, hence her strong identification with slaves.

It's probably why I'm torn on the Lyanna/Rhaegar issue, assuming that Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert and went with Rhaegar willingly (which obviously Wolfmaid disputes). Whatever the issues, I'm still more comfortable with the idea of Lyanna being in a bed she wanted to be in, rather than one she was forced into by her family. Hopefully, we'll eventually know the full story (or at least as much of it as George wants to give us).

Well this man who appeared a beast showed her gentleness and he touched her in a way that lets get real about it would make her body respond.It was pleasure and i'm sure way before she put Drogo's finger in her,she was exploring that for herself.When you got servants bathing you and touching places cleaning you,your bound to figure out what feels good.

Aliave through marriages were very common in medieval times and it is very common in this series it can't be helped.Few married and hooked up for love.That's why i admire GRRM's utilization of both.

Cat desired Brandon,didn't find Ned like the man she wanted yet, she grew to love Ned with her whole heart.This was an arranged marriage.

Dany was sold to a barbarian who despite his tenderness on their wedding night mounted her as a horse every other time...Until she learned to please him in a way that spoke to his heart.He became her Sun and Stars;she became his oon and Stars.This guy who she feared and called a brute.Who ignored her for the most part of their wedding ceremony.

Then much later we get this from Dany re: Daario:

Quote

 

"She thought of Daario. If ever there was a man who could rape a woman with his eyes…  (3.57, DAENERYS)

---
"I wanted you from the first time that I saw you, but you were a sellsword, fickle, treacherous. You boasted that you'd had a hundred women." 

"A hundred?" Daario chuckled through his purple beard. "I lied, sweet queen. It was a thousand.
"  (5.35, DAENERYS)

 

I mean what the frack???

If Lady B is to be believed and i don't think she was lying Brandon wanted her and not Cat.Who knows what would have happened had Brandon lived to marry Cat.

Then there's Sansa who thought Joffrey was sooooo wonderful,she loved him they were going to have babies.He turned out to be an arsehole.

My point being,arranged marriages which was the norm end up great or they end up shitty.

[Voice]

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Huh. I thought I'd already sent this reply, but I don't see it, and it's still sitting in the reply box, so...

Weird how it does that. Often I can't get rid of quoted posts when typing a new one. Frustrating.

At least your post wasn't lost.

Great debate as always, Kingmonkey.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

"Rhaegar, I thought ... He shared my belief when he was young..."

...does not specify who believed it first, who presented rationalisations to whom, and whether there was any "eventually" involved. 

No, actually, the book does indeed state who presented rationalizations to whom. Quote:

"It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

 

/quote.

Note the possessive pronoun.

Note that it was Aemon that put the pieces together. As you yourself stated, Rhaegar would have not been able to, unless he was an incredibly well-informed infant. Possible, but not likely. Aemon is a logical person to have made the observation, and in this passage, claims the rationale as his own.

So, we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Wait, you're concerned that Rhaegar didn't have much time to change his mind, but if he did somehow manage to fit changing his mind in somewhere, he would have had time to go chat to Aemon about it? Does not compute!

Rhaegar went off on some mysterious journey, and on his return kidnapped Lyanna. Maybe he found out some brand new evidence on that mysterious journey of his.

He may have found a unicorn for all we know. I agree.

But per the text, the evidence for tptwp is quite clear:  salt, smoke, bleeding star. And per the text, it is quite clear whom Rhaegar believed to be tptwp, because he like, said it himself...

If we use hypotheticals as clues, the possibilities are truly endless. Mayhaps Lyanna was chewing sourleaf not ten leagues from Harrenhal, her starry teeth stained red, and was salting some smoked beef?

Rhaegar's promised prince radar could have been all Lyanna needed to forget her obligations, convictions, and run away with Elia's husband.

If I can imagine it, it must be true! LOL

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Well to be fair it might be that his brand new evidence was a whole lot more specific than the stuff he'd been basing this off before. On the other hand, let's face it, he wouldn't be doing anything his great grandfather didn't. Prophecies may have a tendency to kick you in the balls, but they seem to be a bit of a Targ thing.

So, "prophecy and duty" aren't exactly contrary to a gambling addiction, are they? We can easily imagine a Rhaegar who was so convinced by prophecy that he was willing to take huge risks to try to fulfil it, because he believed it was his duty to fulfil it. 

Prophecy isn't contrary to a gambling addiction, but duty is my friend.

Prophecy and duty are not one and the same. And thankfully, Jon knows the difference.

It makes a lot more sense for Ned to forget about Rhaegar for years at a time if Rhaegar had nothing at all to do with Lyanna's death/theoretical pregnancy. I propose that Rhaegar (like Ned) was falsely believed to have forsaken his vows. Ned doesn't care for oathbreakers, and believes them to be unflinchingly capable of vile acts. Both he and Barristan paint a far less negligent picture of Rhaegar.

Thus, I find it likely Rhaegar was falsely accused of running away with Lyanna Stark. Per Ned's convictions, and the contrast he draws between Rhaegar and Robert, I believe Rhaegar was faithful to Elia, and kept to her bed.

Those fond of Rhaegar (Cersei, Barristan, Kevan, Viserys) attempt to rationalize accounts of the abduction, and reconcile it with the beautiful/dutiful prince they knew.

...Sort of like how those fond of Ned (Catelyn, Edric Dayne, Robert Baratheon, Jon) attempt to rationalize accounts that Ned fathered a bastard.

Those not fond of Rhaegar (Robert, Bran) attempt to sensationalize accounts of the abduction, and use it to demonize and sexualize the otherwise well-respected prince.

...Sort of like how those not fond of Ned (Cersei, Littlefinger, Jaime) attempt to sensationalize accounts of Jon's bastardy, and use it to demonize and sexualize the otherwise well-respected lord.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Ah but if he was going for child sacrifice, he probably wanted a boy after all. And might have planned to sacrifice his own life, too.

We really don't know what Rhaegar was up to, do we? 

No reason to assume a child sacrifice needs to be a boy. There's power in king's blood, and as you said, both boys and girls come from the same place. No need to waste time on that unicorn though, because I don't think either of us believe it exists.

 

I think we do know what Rhaegar was up to though, actually.

1. He sought to usurp his father (and left him to be "protected" by the one and only Kingsguard knight who might be likely to kill him)
2. He sought to end the civil war.
3. He planned to take the throne by calling a great council.

 

Tough things to politic if you're fucking the kid sister of one rebel leader, and the betrothed of another. No?

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Something Rhaegar read lead him to believe that being a soldier was a requirement for tptwp.

This is one area in which popular assumptions can lead us away from what the books actually say. My copy of the book says:

"As you wish," said Whitebeard. "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

 

No mention of any requirement for tptwp.

And you should take note that this occurred when Rhaegar was a "boy." Thus it is likely that he discussed his discovery with Aemon, particularly if it was related to tptwp.

Yet Aemon mentions no soldier-requirement for tptwp. In fact, I don't think anyone does. Ever.

So it is just as likely that tptwp is meant to be a harpist, as we know Rhaegar also decided to be a harpist.

And really, this might be the one true key that unlocks the puzzle...

Rhaegar was a far better harpist than he was a warrior. He won 1 tourney, and died in his first battle. Timeline experts will have to correct me, I am basing this solely off of memory. I might well be forgetting MANY battles and duels in which Rhaegar claimed victory.

But all I can remember him being particularly good at, based upon the memories of our POVs, is singing sad songs.

Thus, if it turns out Jon, or his mute wolf, are actually quite accomplished sopranos, we might have found our singer of the song of ice and fire folks.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

On discovering that, he started training in arms. Yet we don't actually know what it was that Rhaegar read to make him believe that, only that he did. It's hardly a stretch to speculate that there may have been other things that Rhaegar knew (or thought he knew) about the requirements for tptwp which have not been reported either. 

Unknowns, Stretches, Speculations...

Sure. We can make a case for anything if we include such things.

I am merely trying to encourage folks to include things we actually know.

Like how Lyanna was 14 when Rhaegar was rumored to have left his wife and children, and how she did not approve of men who kept more than one bed.

 

But sure, if we allow for unknowns, stretches, and speculations... and completely ignore Lyanna's own character and convictions, much and more is possible.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Perhaps because tptwp is the child of the great wolf and the man of fire, whatever that means. 

For example. 

Sure!

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. LOL

Are you talking about something that Martin wrote or said?

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Tyrion is an ugly runt who Sansa was forced to marry. He was one of the hated Lannisters who she had been brought up to think of as the bad guys her entire life. That kind of adds to things.

But hey, even if I accept that, it's just a counter-example to the one I gave, and that doesn't serve the purpose of showing that Lyanna would have any problem with Rhaegar. If there are examples that show both possibilities, then at best it shows that she *might* have. 

Well yeah. She might have.

Or not.

One or the other.

Does indeed add to things.

But you do of course understand that far more of the tension between them was due to Tyrion's last name, than his height... right?

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

True, true. Yeah. You're right, I concede. I mean that would be like Robb Stark falling in love with a Westerling girl. 

Exactly! A wonderful example!

Men think with their swords.

Women, on the other hand...

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

My main problem with ALL OF THE X+Y=J THEORIES (not just your own) is that they are completely androcentric. Not one of them accounts for Lyanna's own character, beliefs, opinions, and ambitions (with the exception of Howland+Lyanna, which did at least put some focus upon it).

 

Your theory is great. I have told you many times that I love it, and it makes me want to believe. That wasn't bullshit. It really does.

 

But like the others, you too fail to approach the question of Ned's parentage from the perspective of his mother. Each theory makes a big show of one of her potential partners, but none of them approach the question from her own point of view.

 

In lieu of her own POV chapter, we have her words. Her opinions. Her beliefs. Her character traits.

 

Why does no one value those?  Just askin.

 

So, back to your wonderful example:  Robb Stark falling in love with a Westerling girl. 

That happened. It was in my copy of the books too!

But imagine, from Jeyne Westerling's point of view, the introduction and development of her relationship Robb, if . . . rather than Robb's father being dead, Eddard Stark was alive and well and torturing Gawen Westerling, lord of the Crag, by making him watch his own son and heir, Jeyne's elder brother Ser Raynald, be cooked alive in his armor.

Now, imagine she doesn't know how Raynald died. Nor how Gawen died. But it is rumored that Ned killed them. And now, your other brother, the Quiet Seashell, has called his banners (along with your fiancee), and is riding to war against House Stark, to end the rule of the Mad Ned.

 

This brings me back to my point, and the reason I'm participating in this thread. It is completely androcentric to imagine these partnership scenarios as "men, falling in love with women."

Sure. That happens. But for all of his shortcomings, GRRM is not that sexist. The woman is important too.

 

And I think that any theory about Jon's mother should begin by addressing her character and motivations, rather than who wanted her.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Dude, you just compared Ned's feelings about Jorah selling people into slavery with Ned's attitude towards Rhaegar. That's what I was responding to.

Did Rhaegar sell Lyanna into slavery? Well it would seem not, or Ned would be very pissed with her. I'm with you on that.

Was Jorah in love with those slaves? Er. I'm going to say probably not. Did he run away with them to his secret love nest and give them flowers? Definitely not. Can you say the same about Rhaegar and Lyanna? Nope.

There's no reason to think these two situations are comparable. 

Jorah dishonored the north by selling poachers to a Tyroshi slaver.

Would not stealing and bedding the one and only daughter of House Stark be an act of dishonor upon the north?

Add to this the fact that Lord Rickard Stark had promised Lyanna to the young lord of Storm's End, and bound that promise with a marriage pact.

To steal another man's betrothed is in itself, not honorable... right?

Is it honorable to break a vow?

It is honorable to steal a man's daughter?

Ned didn't seem to enjoy the thought of that happening at the Trident, and he has a low opinion of men who break their vows (Jaime, Robert). And men who would run away with a daughter? No, Ned doesn't care for that either.

In fact, each of these are examples of misdeeds that cause a great amount of emotion in Ned. Emotion which, of course, is severely lacking when he finds himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

How do you know what Rhaegar did or didn't know, or believe he knew?

Given the entire concept of tptwp is that it's some guy who's going to save the world, I'm going to go with Rhaegar believed that the ptwp (promised to save the world, that is) was going to save the world.

"You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you."

That's his JOB.

This is an easy one.

Unless Rhaegar believed the prince that was promised was invincible/immortal, we know that he was in fact, vulnerable.

If tptwp is vulnerable (like poor Aegon's head), then we know that tptwp has just as much of a chance of saving the world and it does of simply dying.

Thus, rather than run away with a 14 year old girl to save the world, he did so to create a child that might save the world, or, it might simply die.

Given medical tech in Westeros, the latter is far more probable.

So, again, this demonstrates a recklessness that does not sound like a thoughtful reader, beloved leader, and skilled politician who hopes to save a realm on the brink of civil war.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Yeah, damn Rhaegar for not being able to see the future. What's wrong with him?

You don't have to be a greenseer to know that pregnancy is risky in Westeros.

And you don't have to be a maester to know that the ideal surrogate is not a 14 year old, betrothed to a guys with big muscles and a short temper.

And you don't have to be Viserys Targaryen to know that bedding a 14 year old is queer.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Aside from the point I already made that you don't know it was Aemon's first, so what? Rhaegar believed it. Wherever the idea originated, it was Rhaegar's mistake as well as Aemon's. Then he didn't believe it. Some other sign came along that pointed to someone else. What makes it impossible that happened a second time?

Hey, you're the one that brought it up. Not me. You're original point was that Rhaegar was likely not the person that identified him as tptwp at his own birth.

Now, you seem to want to argue the reverse.

The text is quite clear, it was Aemon's belief. But whatevs.

 

And sure, anything is possible. A mistake could have happened a second time. But that isn't in the books, and I'm less convinced by possible circumstances than I am circumstances that are actually published in the books.

In the books, Rhaegar believed Aegon was the prince that was promised. That is a circumstance we can either use in our theory-making, or one that we can dismiss as a mistake because it doesn't fit our theory.

I have no dog in that fight, but I do find the dismissal of details such as that to be a poor method of operation.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Of course. However that doesn't mean he knew what was going on in Rhaegar's head. It doesn't even mean he had the whole of Lyanna's version of the story. She may not have had time to go into much detail. 

So rather than account for the perspective that Ned does provide, that should be dismissed too...?

All in the name of science, I guess.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Or sixteen. 'cos that's how many bastards Robert sired. Of course that doesn't sound nearly as similar to Rhaegar's putative "one" as the way you worded it, does it?

We can also add "everything else" to the list of things that they're unalike in.

Rhaegar and Robert are fundamentally unalike. The one thing they have in common, the thing that drives them on a collision course that changed the world, was Lyanna. The way they are presented to us in the books is as virtually direct opposites. Thoughtful, bookish, morose Rhaegar vs. impetuous, martial, laughing Robert.  Finesse vs. brute force. Singing sad songs to the maidens rather than drinking his mates under the table. Wanting to wander in solitude and study ancient manuscripts vs. wanting to wander around shagging and fighting his way across the world. Man who shags everything that he can get his hands on vs. man who wouldn't frequent brothels. 

This isn't accidental. Rivals in love, rivals for the throne, opposites in nature.

Yet if Lyanna objected to Robert's nature, she must necessarily have objected to Rhaegar's nature, despite the fact that his nature is so utterly different to Robert's nature. Well if you buy that one, maybe I should be trying to sell you a bridge.

I think I need a bridge, my friend.

You propose too big a leap for me to make otherwise.

 

I did not mean to under-represent the virility of one King Robert Baratheon. He was indeed far more successful when it came to the bedding of women than was Rhaegar.

Mayhaps Rhaegar was so used to sickly Elia, that he wanted a fragile young girl's bed. That might make sense in a twisted sort of way.

But alas, yes. In my copy of the books, Robert sired a great many bastards. Ned sired one. And Rhaegar sired none.

I think the last may well prove to be correct, but if it does not, one cannot simply dismiss two facts:

1. Lyanna was a child, betrothed to Rhaegar's cousin, who did not approve of men who keep to multiple beds.

2. Ashara Dayne was crazy hot, Dornish, and Elia's lady in waiting... in addition to being his best friend's sister.

 

I might add that the latter woman, being Dornish (like Elia), might even allow for Rhaegar to be both "dutiful" and polyamorous, as paramours are culturally appropriate in Dornish society.

The former doesn't allow for much, as Lyanna (not Dornish) did not approve of polyamory and was promised via marriage pact to another man.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

No. I'm recognising the simple fact that Lyanna complained about men who would NEVER keep to one bed, not that she demanded a virgin.

Right. And if Rhaegar never left Elia's bed, then how did he impregnate Lyanna?

And again, you are approaching the relationship from the point of view of the man alone. A common misstep in these essays, imo.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

If she was good with that, then no. It's not. If you think it is, you're using the wrong word. 

How would hiding out with your lover be misogyny?

And what about Lyanna makes you think she would be "good with that"?

Or, oh wait . . . are we talking about Unknowns, Stretches, and Speculations again?

 

Hiding out with your lover is not misogyny.

Hiding out with a betrothed 14 year old (while your father tortures and kills her family) is misogyny.

Or . . . do we not recall what happens to women who do not keep to one bed?

That's a shame. Shame. Shame.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Again, no. That might (but not necessarily) be the case if he was doing it solely to hurt Elia (or Elia and Lyanna). It's not misogynistic to fall in love with another woman and leave your wife for her. Even if your wife isn't very well. It may be a dick move, but it's not misogynistic. 

Lyanna wasn't another woman. Lyanna was a 13-14 year old girl. Do you not remember the fear the captain's daughter felt when she realized Theon was not going to take her to Pyke?

And she was lowborn. And Robert Baratheon wasn't waiting to marry her.

If Lyanna had somehow survived her bed of blood, do you think her life would have been better for having been deflowered by Rhaegar?

Again, I understand that in certain trailer parks, these vices might be normalized, but in Westeros, there would be hell to pay.

So, that is misogynistic, because as a highborn prince, Rhaegar would know these things. As a highborn child-woman, Lyanna would too. There are consequences when a prince runs away with a lord's daughter... not only for the thief, but for the daughter.

Gynocentrism - The woman matters too.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I did prefix that statement with the word "If". 

But not if he sent your 12 year old daughter some flowers, like Loras did?

Paedo creepy is par for the course in Westeros. They think it's all good once a girl starts menstruating. 

A child of 13-14, or even eleven (Sansa was actually eleven iirc) might be considered old enough for flowers, and even betrothal, but not old enough for marriage, bedding, and motherhood.  Quote:

“She’s too skinny,” Viserys said. His hair, the same silver-blond as hers, had been pulled back tightly behind his head and fastened with a dragonbone brooch. It was a severe look that emphasized the hard, gaunt lines of his face. He rested his hand on the hilt of the sword that Illyrio had lent him, and said, “Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?”

“She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal,” Illyrio told him, not for the first time. “Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes... she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt... and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo.” When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.

“I suppose,” her brother said doubtfully. “The savages have queer tastes. Boys, horses, sheep...”

“Best not suggest this to Khal Drogo,” Illyrio said.
Anger flashed in her brother’s lilac eyes. “Do you take me for a fool?”

/quote

 

How old was Dany when they were having that conversation?

Lyanna's age at Harrenhal, 13.

The same age you would have us believe that Lyanna did not fail to entrance our Rhaegar.

 

So it does seem that Lyanna was a tad young, and that if Rhaegar was indeed entranced by her, he too had "queer tastes."

As in, "not normal."

And let us not forget, Lyanna might have had surpassing loveliness, but she wasn't exactly a sex symbol.

To quote Kevan Lannister:

Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

 

So a wild, northern, 13-14 year old beauty, fond of flowers, riding horses, and playing at swords.

 

That's not "love," Kingmonkey, that's a married ,man-grown, father of two you don't want babysitting your kids.

 

9 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

A fitting gesture if he planned on charming her and didn't know that there was some rather more awkward symbolism attached to them in Stark circles, too. Or perhaps if he did know that symbolism, and knew she rather liked the idea of being stolen away by him and wanted to send a message to her that he was up for it. Or maybe that was going to be the crown anyway, and it was merely ironic that Lyanna got it. 

We don't know yet, which is what makes it fun speculating. When it comes to what Rhaegar's reasoning behind the blue roses was, I'm more than happy to  on "each to his own interpretation", 'cos that's all we have!

 

Happy to clink    it is very fun!

 

But we do of course have a little bit more than speculation. We also have the text. While I enjoy speculating about it, I cannot abandon passages that do not fit a given theory, then replace the hole left behind with speculation, then consider the theory tested and validated. My brain just doesn't work that way.

But fun nonetheless. Great debate as always, good ser.

 

 

[Kingmonkey]

11 hours ago, JNR said:

Lyanna did not know that Robert was the kind of man who frequents brothels.  If you think she did know that, prove it.

She said so. This is pretty much the one opinion of hers we've been given, that she believed Robert was not the kind of man who would ever stick to one bed.

Perhaps the difference between us here is that you read that as being Lyanna's opinion based purely on the single fact of his child in the Vale? That would certainly explain the impasse we've reached on this. If so, well we're stuck.

While a noble woman in Westeros might be expected to be a virgin on her wedding night, the same was certainly not expected of a noble man. If Lyanna thought that any man who'd had sex before marriage was sure to "never keep to one bed", then she was extraordinarily naive, and in for a bit of a shock. Surely one she'd have already had by the time she was 16, no? This would make 11 year old Sansa look world-wise.

On the contrary, when Ned recalls the statement, it is recalling how right she was. I think it's pretty clear that Lyanna was talking from an actual knowledge (possibly second-hand) of what kind of a man Robert was. That's why she was talking about his nature. That's why she called him "Robert", not "Lord Baratheon".  

11 hours ago, JNR said:

You are, in short, assuming Lyanna to have been clairvoyant about Robert's future behavior, in the manner of the Ghost of High Heart, Jojen, or similar.

I'm assuming she was a decent enough judge of character to have figured him out, and for Ned to think about how accurately she judged his character, 14 years later.

You think she based her observation on Robert purely from the fact that:

11 hours ago, JNR said:

he was a unmarried man who had a bastard in the Vale.

? Yet it turns out she was right after all, spot on, despite the logic of drawing that conclusion from those facts is utterly naive? Wow, she must have been clairvoyant about Robert's future behavior, in the manner of the Ghost of High Heart, Jojen, or similar.

Or she was actually judging Robert based on knowledge of his character. 

 

[Regular John Umber]

3 hours ago, Voice said:

 

15 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

 

 

Quote

"Rhaegar, I thought ... He shared my belief when he was young..."

...does not specify who believed it first, who presented rationalisations to whom, and whether there was any "eventually" involved. 

No, actually, the book does indeed state who presented rationalizations to whom. Quote:

"It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

 

/quote.

 

 

 I have to disagree - "He shared my belief" is very different to "He came around to my way of thinking."

 

 That's like a Christian coming across another Christian, saying "he shares my belief in Christ", and then claiming the first one came up with the whole religion.

[Kingmonkey]

2 hours ago, Voice said:

No, actually, the book does indeed state who presented rationalizations to whom. Quote:

(snip) He shared my belief when he was young (snip)

Note the possessive pronoun.

That it was his belief indicates that he believed it, not that he originated the belief. If someone says "Yes, that is my belief", they are not claiming they are the first person to have so believed. If someone says "Many people share my belief that the pyramids were built by aliens", they are not claiming to have originated the theory.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

But per the text, the evidence for tptwp is quite clear:  salt, smoke, bleeding star. And per the text, it is quite clear whom Rhaegar believed to be tptwp, because he like, said it himself...

Yeah, himself. Then he changed his mind.

Those elements are commonly known signs of tptwp, but it would be rash to conclude that they are the only ones that could ever be discovered. We know that Rhaegar was very interested in the topic, it would be foolish to dismiss the possibility that he knew things that were not common knowledge.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Prophecy and duty are not one and the same. And thankfully, Jon knows the difference.

Suppose your duty is to fulfil a prophecy?

2 hours ago, Voice said:

It makes a lot more sense for Ned to forget about Rhaegar for years at a time if Rhaegar had nothing at all to do with Lyanna's death/theoretical pregnancy. I propose that Rhaegar (like Ned) was falsely believed to have forsaken his vows. Ned doesn't care for oathbreakers, and believes them to be unflinchingly capable of vile acts. Both he and Barristan paint a far less negligent picture of Rhaegar.

Let me suggest a different way of looking at Ned's attitude to Rhaegar.

We don't know for certain what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar, or how much of it Ned know.

We do however know for certain what Aerys did. Where's Ned's anger towards Aerys? He displays far more anger towards Jaime for killing Aerys than he does for Aerys killing his brother and father. If anything, he mostly displays pity for mad Aerys. 

Ned does not seem to hold grudges against the dead, only the living. Which I'll readily admit is a point against the pro-RLJ love story theories that suggest that Ned's attitude is indicative that he must have known Rhaegar wasn't to blame, too. However, there it is. I don't think we can safely draw ANY conclusions about how Rhaegar behaved from Ned's lack of emotion towards him.

I think that pretty well covers the Jorah situation too. The past is dead and buried, but Jorah is still alive. 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

No reason to assume a child sacrifice needs to be a boy. There's power in king's blood, and as you said, both boys and girls come from the same place.

Assume, no. Hence my "probably". Remember Aemon's revelation about dragons and gender? Prior to that there was an "error" in assuming a male "prince". It's not a huge jump to think the same kind of gender-blind assumption might have been made in the "two kings" stuff too.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

I think we do know what Rhaegar was up to though, actually.

1. He sought to usurp his father (and left him to be "protected" by the one and only Kingsguard knight who might be likely to kill him)
2. He sought to end the civil war.
3. He planned to take the throne by calling a great council.

 

Tough things to politic if you're fucking the kid sister of one rebel leader, and the betrothed of another. No?

Agreed. However, he seems to have taken a break from all that:

"When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

That sounds like Rhaegar might have agreed with your assessment too.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

No mention of any requirement for tptwp.

Granted, case unproven. However we do know the kind of scrolls that he liked to read, and "it seems I must be a warrior" does sound more like something has suggested to him that there is a requirement for him to be one rather than simply enthusing him with the lust for battle. 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Yet Aemon mentions no soldier-requirement for tptwp. In fact, I don't think anyone does. Ever.

It may be rather assumed. After all, the context of Aemon's discussion of tptwp was Stannis. It's not like he'd come out and say "Oh, by the way, Rhaegar and I discovered that the prince that was promised is a warrior. Stannis is a warrior, so... yeah. Carry on."

2 hours ago, Voice said:

So it is just as likely that tptwp is meant to be a harpist, as we know Rhaegar also decided to be a harpist.

There's no reference to Rhaegar reading something in his scrolls that made him feel he had to learn the harp, so it's a bit strong saying it's "just as likely."

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Like how Lyanna was 14 when Rhaegar was rumored to have left his wife and children, and how she did not approve of men who kept more than one bed.

At the same time, yeah. Which I'm suggesting may point to Rhaegar not doing that, hmm?

2 hours ago, Voice said:

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. LOL

Are you talking about something that Martin wrote or said?

I'm talking about the figures that dance in MMD's tent. Read my Puppets of Ice and Fire essay.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Exactly! A wonderful example!

Men think with their swords.

Women, on the other hand...

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Ok, so that's not a fair example. What I should have said was: "I mean that would be like a Westerling girl falling in love with a Robb Stark". Cool, let's go with that instead.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

My main problem with ALL OF THE X+Y=J THEORIES (not just your own) is that they are completely androcentric. Not one of them accounts for Lyanna's own character, beliefs, opinions, and ambitions (with the exception of Howland+Lyanna, which did at least put some focus upon it).

I totally disagree. If Lyanna's character, beliefs, opinions and ambitions are glossed over, then it's probably because we know almost nothing of them. We have a few hints based on her behaviour, and a single statement about Robert's nature. It's little to go on, but most essays in this series have addressed them as far as they feel there are conclusions to be drawn with anything approaching certainty. You may not agree with the conclusions the author draws as to Lyanna's character and motivations from that limited evidence, but that doesn't mean it was ignored. For example, my RLJ essay and Wolfmaid's RB+L essay both attempt to get a sense of Lyanna's part in it, though we clearly disagree over our interpretations

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Now, imagine she doesn't know how Raynald died. Nor how Gawen died. But it is rumored that Ned killed them. And now, your other brother, the Quiet Seashell, has called his banners (along with your fiancee), and is riding to war against House Stark, to end the rule of the Mad Ned.

I think that Jayne's feelings towards Robb would rather depend on Robb's attitude. It would be a very different story if he shrugged his shoulders or even supported Ned's actions, than if he condemned Ned for it and planned to depose him. 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Thus, rather than run away with a 14 year old girl to save the world, he did so to create a child that might save the world, or, it might simply die.

A child that had been PROMISED to save the world. Seriously, I have no idea where you're coming from here. TPTWP is all about saving the world. Nobody said he's invulnerable, they said that if he falls, the world falls with him. That's not a reason to give up and not bother trying.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

You don't have to be a greenseer to know that pregnancy is risky in Westeros.

Yeah, it's always risky, so what are you going to do? Wait until medical technology catches up?

2 hours ago, Voice said:

And you don't have to be a maester to know that the ideal surrogate is not a 14 year old, betrothed to a guys with big muscles and a short temper.

I do agree it's likely Rhaegar would have chosen Lyanna for some actual reason rather than just being the first woman he found.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

And you don't have to be Viserys Targaryen to know that bedding a 14 year old is queer.

Not in Westeros, it isn't.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Hey, you're the one that brought it up. Not me. You're original point was that Rhaegar was likely not the person that identified him as tptwp at his own birth.

Wires seem to have gotten crossed here. My original point was that Rhaegar changed his mind about who the tptwp once, he could do it again.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

In the books, Rhaegar believed Aegon was the prince that was promised. That is a circumstance we can either use in our theory-making, or one that we can dismiss as a mistake because it doesn't fit our theory.

I'm not dismissing that. I'm suggesting that we must also consider the possibility that he later changed his mind.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

I have no dog in that fight, but I do find the dismissal of details such as that to be a poor method of operation.

We know that Rhaegar had prior form in finding out new information about tptwp, and as a result changing his mind about a previously held belief as to the identity of tptwp. How is dismissing that not a poor method of operation?

2 hours ago, Voice said:

1. Lyanna was a child, betrothed to Rhaegar's cousin, who did not approve of men who keep to multiple beds.

She was a child by our standards. You've got to stop applying modern western standards to Westeros, they have different standards. Let me just point out that Lyanna was older than Rhaella was when she had Rhaegar. As far as Rhaegar is concerned, this is perfectly normal. 

Further, keeping to multiple beds is only a problem if you imagine it to be a problem. Nothing says that Rhaegar intended to return to Elia. RLJ does not have to encompass polyamory. It's simply not an issue. 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

I might add that the latter woman, being Dornish (like Elia), might even allow for Rhaegar to be both "dutiful" and polyamorous, as paramours are culturally appropriate in Dornish society.

She might. Of course we don't know that, but she might. It's not completely unreasonable to speculate that she might be ok with a polyamorous relationship. 

No more than it is to speculate that there was no polyamorous relationship involved. 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Right. And if Rhaegar never left Elia's bed, then how did he impregnate Lyanna?

What? I never said Rhaegar never left Elia's bed. 

Never keeping to one bed and never leaving one bed are not orthogonal. You can leave one bed, and then keep to the next.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Hiding out with a betrothed 14 year old (while your father tortures and kills her family) is misogyny.

No it's not. Misogyny is acting out of a hatred of women. 

Even if you consider that Rhaegar's behaviour towards Lyanna was appalling, and that he mistreated her, that still doesn't make it misogyny. It would only be misogyny if he did so out of a hatred of women. 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

A child of 13-14, or even eleven (Sansa was actually eleven iirc) might be considered old enough for flowers, and even betrothal, but not old enough for marriage, bedding, and motherhood.  Quote:

Lyanna keeps getting younger and younger! Lyanna was 16 when she died. That means she became pregnant when she was 15 or 16.

Rhaella was born in 245 or 246. Rhaegar was born in 259. That means she was between 12 and 14 when Rhaegar was conceived. 

Dany was 13.

Tywin thought it perfectly reasonable to demand that Tyrion get 12 year old Sansa immediately pregnant, so as to secure the north with a Lannister/Stark heir. 

2 hours ago, Voice said:

Lyanna's age at Harrenhal, 13.

The same age you would have us believe that Lyanna did not fail to entrance our Rhaegar.

I never made any such claim. I have no idea where you got that from, but it wasn't me. Remember how we were debating earlier about the possibility that he may have sought out Lyanna for her Stark blood?

I very intentionally wrote the RLJ essay avoiding any conclusions on whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, because I do not believe such conclusions can be drawn with anything approaching certainty. I think it's a good possibility. Maybe even the strongest possibility, but certainly not the only one. The conclusion of my RLJ essay is that such a possibility is by no means necessary to the case for RLJ.

2 hours ago, Voice said:

But we do of course have a little bit more than speculation. We also have the text. While I enjoy speculating about it, I cannot abandon passages that do not fit a given theory, then replace the hole left behind with speculation, then consider the theory tested and validated. My brain just doesn't work that way.

But fun nonetheless. Great debate as always, good ser.

I agree fully with your principle, I just disagree with your interpretation that those passages do not fit the theory. I don't abandon them, I include them. We differ on whether that works. Otherwise the debate wouldn't be nearly so good!

 

[Kingmonkey]

58 minutes ago, Regular John Umber said:

That's like a Christian coming across another Christian, saying "he shares my belief in Christ", and then claiming the first one came up with the whole religion.

Hah. Funnily enough that was exactly the comparison I was going to use. Then I went with aliens, because aliens. 

[wolfmaid7]

6 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

? Yet it turns out she was right after all, spot on, despite the logic of drawing that conclusion from those facts is utterly naive? Wow, she must have been clairvoyant about Robert's future behavior, in the manner of the Ghost of High Heart, Jojen, or similar.

Or she was actually judging Robert based on knowledge of his character. 

Okay barring what i think about Lyanna and Robert...Kingmonkey Lyanna wasn't right though.I think you are looking at what Lyanna said absent the variable applied -Love.

In a nutshell Lyanna was saying "love won't change a man's nature" ( I agree with Slywren  that Lyanna was speaking about not only who she thought Robert was,but men in general).

Ned's point was that Robert loving her would make him true correct?

Fast foward to the future, that variable wasn't met by Cersie,she didn't love Robert,he didn't love her .Ned at the point in the brothal knows that as Robert has made that clear to him on several occassions.He lamented how cold Cersie was,how Arryn was a bigger fool than Moon boy for making that match.Talked about leaving her and the children behind and just taking off.Talked about drinking and whoring himself to an early grave.The man even wished the Others would take Cersie.Ned would have to be blind to think after all of that there was love between them.

That's why recalling that conversation makes sense or doesn't make sense without the addition of love in Robert's current situation.

And Cersie's own statement in the weirdest way proves Ned's to be true....Robert went where he felt loved to his whores and to his friends.Even his bastards who would gurgle up and laugh with him when he put his fingers in their mouths.

We can't look at the recalled convo with Ned and Lyanna and forget the basis of the conversation which was love making Robert true or not.

To say that Lyanna was right without the love variable is misleading.

[Voice]

6 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 I have to disagree - "He shared my belief" is very different to "He came around to my way of thinking."

 

 That's like a Christian coming across another Christian, saying "he shares my belief in Christ", and then claiming the first one came up with the whole religion.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Hah. Funnily enough that was exactly the comparison I was going to use. Then I went with aliens, because aliens. 

 

Ah yes, now I understand the confusion. Wires were indeed crossed.   And I agree with you both.

To be honest, I don't really care about whose belief it was that Rhaegar was tptwp, nor where that idea originated. I was merely addressing KM's earlier comment which raised the question of the mistake, and it got me thinking. Question quoted below:

 

On 9/20/2016 at 4:30 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Should a red comet be seen in the skies on the night  tptwp is conceived?

If so, how did Rhaeger ever mistake himself as tptwp?

 

So I was suggesting that Aemon is the most likely source of the mistake, rather than Rhaegar himself.

Like those who believe in Aliens/Christ (lol), Rhaegar had to be taught that belief, and shown the evidence for it. Considering he was an infant at the time, I doubt it was he who pieced together the ptwp evidence present at his birth at Summerhall.

Someone would have taught him about those events. I submit that person was likely Aemon. As the highly educated elder of the family, Aemon makes sense as the one to have first drawn the interpretation.

That is not to suggest Maester Aemon invented the religion, or the prophecy, only that he is likely the one to have submitted the interpretation of events surrounding Rhaegar's birth, to Rhaegar.

Thus, I do not think Rhaegar ever really made a mistake regarding the identity of tptwp. Instead, I place the onus of that mistake upon Aemon. We see Aemon's uncertainty regarding the identity of tptwp after his meeting with Mel and Stannis. And in his final moments aboard the ship, we again hear Aemon's uncertainty regarding the identity of tptwp, and his desire to make amends for it.

We do not see any uncertainty regarding the identity of tptwp when Rhaegar is speaking to Elia.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

34 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Okay barring what i think about Lyanna and Robert...Kingmonkey Lyanna wasn't right though.I think you are looking at what Lyanna said absent the variable applied -Love.

In a nutshell Lyanna was saying "love won't change a man's nature" ( I agree with Slywren  that Lyanna was speaking about not only who she thought Robert was,but men in general).

Lyanna did address the "love variable" though. She said, "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

Also, please note the word "cannot". She did not say that it would not (or "won't") change a man's nature, but that it cannot. Even if love is present, a man's nature will not be changed. 

 

38 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ned's point was that Robert loving her would make him true correct?

Except that Robert did love her and proclaimed it. He stroked her statue, he bashed in Rhaegar's chest, he said her name on his wedding night, he tried to emulate his own betrothal to her by replicating it with Joffrey and Sansa.

However, that love he felt for Lyanna did not make him faithful to her. There's the whole thing with the brothel and probably Gendry, who is close to the same age as Robb so was conceived while Lyanna was still alive.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

17 minutes ago, Voice said:

So I was suggesting that Aemon is the most likely source of the mistake, rather than Rhaegar himself.

Like those who believe in Aliens/Christ (lol), Rhaegar had to be taught that belief, and shown the evidence for it. Considering he was an infant at the time, I doubt it was he who pieced together the ptwp evidence present at his birth at Summerhall.

Someone would have taught him about those events. I submit that person was likely Aemon. As the highly educated elder of the family, Aemon makes sense as the one to have first drawn the interpretation.

That is not to suggest Maester Aemon invented the religion, or the prophecy, only that he is likely the one to have submitted the interpretation of events surrounding Rhaegar's birth, to Rhaegar.

Thus, I do not think Rhaegar ever really made a mistake regarding the identity of tptwp. Instead, I place the onus of that mistake upon Aemon. We see Aemon's uncertainty regarding the identity of tptwp after his meeting with Mel and Stannis. And in his final moments aboard the ship, we again hear Aemon's uncertainty regarding the identity of tptwp, and his desire to make amends for it.

We do not see any uncertainty regarding the identity of tptwp when Rhaegar is speaking to Elia.

 

Aemon may have been the guy who first suggested that Rhaegar was the PtwP, but later on, due to the comet, Rhaegar himself changed his mind to thinking Aegon was the PtwP:

Quote

but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

So it's Rhaegar himself who was sure that the bleeding star had to be a comet, and hence his son was PtwP.

In any case, even if Aemon had given the initial interpretation of the prophecy to Rhaegar, there's nothing to suggest that Rhaegar wouldn't have thought over it himself, and come to his own conclusions. We know he was very bookish and knowledgeable, so I'd say there's a good chance he would have tried to study about the prophecy extensively on his own. Aemon would have been his advisor, not the man who gave the final word. Like a good teacher-student relationship.

So it's  actually quite possible Rhaegar changed his mind again on the PtwP.

[WSmith84]

45 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

However, that love he felt for Lyanna did not make him faithful to her. There's the whole thing with the brothel and probably Gendry, who is close to the same age as Robb so was conceived while Lyanna was still alive.

Don't you know? Robert sleeping with those whores is just a story, despite the whore working at said brothel with Robert's hair and matching age. And the fact that Jon Connington also claims that Robert emerged from a brothel. Ah, but Robert was too injured to have any sex. Despite the fact that was well enough to almost kill Jon Connington and kill Myles Mooton, there's no way Robert could have maintained an erection.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Lyanna did address the "love variable" though. She said, "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

Also, please note the word "cannot". She did not say that it would not (or "won't") change a man's nature, but that it cannot. Even if love is present, a man's nature will not be changed. 

 

Except that Robert did love her and proclaimed it. He stroked her statue, he bashed in Rhaegar's chest, he said her name on his wedding night, he tried to emulate his own betrothal to her by replicating it with Joffrey and Sansa.

However, that love he felt for Lyanna did not make him faithful to her. There's the whole thing with the brothel and probably Gendry, who is close to the same age as Robb so was conceived while Lyanna was still alive.

Hun keep up with what i'm saying how did she "address" it ? By saying it won't change anything.It doesn't matter if she said cannot or wouldn't.Her mind the greatest power in the world is inconsequential.Ned had a different view...

Therefore,using the arguement that Lyanna was right about Robert is wrong because in the context of his relationship with Cersie love was not a factor when it should have been.Hence the arguements are nil.

The "whole thing with the brothel" is not a thing.It is a buisness angle.

See below look to Ned.Gendry very well after he found out about Lyanna.

39 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Don't you know? Robert sleeping with those whores is just a story, despite the whore working at said brothel with Robert's hair and matching age. And the fact that Jon Connington also claims that Robert emerged from a brothel. Ah, but Robert was too injured to have any sex. Despite the fact that was well enough to almost kill Jon Connington and kill Myles Mooton, there's no way Robert could have maintained an erection.

Yeah it is just a story....Bella's own "account" "I might be a king's daughter,they say Robert fucked my mother when he stayed here .He fucked all the girls of course but he liked my mom best" 

Nothing but an angle for buisness.Look to Ned.If such a thing had happened seeing as Ned was the one that basically rescued Robert from said brothel;he'd have something to say other than Robert loved Lyanna which is the point.

His own words dispute this notion that Robert wasn't true to Lyanna.You do see why don't you?

[Voice]

We need to find a way to debate more concisely, KM. LOL

These long quotes don't want to behave for me.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

That it was his belief indicates that he believed it, not that he originated the belief. If someone says "Yes, that is my belief", they are not claiming they are the first person to have so believed. If someone says "Many people share my belief that the pyramids were built by aliens", they are not claiming to have originated the theory.

Yup. Addressed this in previous post.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Yeah, himself. Then he changed his mind.

Those elements are commonly known signs of tptwp, but it would be rash to conclude that they are the only ones that could ever be discovered. We know that Rhaegar was very interested in the topic, it would be foolish to dismiss the possibility that he knew things that were not common knowledge.

And yet, Rhaegar's research led him to conclude that it was Aegon.

He never changed his mind about that in my copy of the books.

Is it possible he did? Of course. It is possible that there are other signs of tptwp that might be discovered? Of course.

But as published, the signs are salt, smoke, bleeding star.

And, as published, Rhaegar the prophecy expert named Aegon, and dubbed him the prince that was promised.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Suppose your duty is to fulfil a prophecy?

= A messiah.

I do not want to turn this into a theological debate, but I think it is safe to say that our author is skeptical of that brand of duty.

And when leaving Jaime to go die at the Trident, Rhaegar sounds far more pragmatic and reasonable than a man with a messiah complex. Quote:

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Let me suggest a different way of looking at Ned's attitude to Rhaegar.

We don't know for certain what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar, or how much of it Ned know.

We do however know for certain what Aerys did. Where's Ned's anger towards Aerys? He displays far more anger towards Jaime for killing Aerys than he does for Aerys killing his brother and father. If anything, he mostly displays pity for mad Aerys. 

Ned does not seem to hold grudges against the dead, only the living. Which I'll readily admit is a point against the pro-RLJ love story theories that suggest that Ned's attitude is indicative that he must have known Rhaegar wasn't to blame, too. However, there it is. I don't think we can safely draw ANY conclusions about how Rhaegar behaved from Ned's lack of emotion towards him.

I think that pretty well covers the Jorah situation too. The past is dead and buried, but Jorah is still alive. 

Makes complete sense.

But then, absence of emotion is not the only quandary that nags at me. There is also the absence of thought.

Jon Snow is very much alive, and would be a living reminder that Rhaegar had abducted/raped/loved Lyanna.

Ned does not hate the dead, that much is true.    But neither does he forget the dead. I think we can all agree that Ned is haunted by ghosts and guilts. And rather than be a face that haunts his dreams or memories, Rhaegar is forgettable. For Ned. The man raising Jon Snow as his son.

Ned's forgettable, blasé regard for Rhaegar Targaryen is difficult to reconcile with the notion that he raised the man's son. 

Contrast this with his regard Lyanna, and the difference is plain. The strength of argument we find for Lyanna being the subject of Ned's most intimate secret is simply not present for Rhaegar. 

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Assume, no. Hence my "probably". Remember Aemon's revelation about dragons and gender? Prior to that there was an "error" in assuming a male "prince". It's not a huge jump to think the same kind of gender-blind assumption might have been made in the "two kings" stuff too.

Agreed.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Agreed. However, he seems to have taken a break from all that:

"When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

That sounds like Rhaegar might have agreed with your assessment too.

I think Rhaegar would agree with me about quite a bit. LOL

But can a messiah whose duty = prophecy take a break from all that?

Hmm. I'm less certain.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Granted, case unproven. However we do know the kind of scrolls that he liked to read, and "it seems I must be a warrior" does sound more like something has suggested to him that there is a requirement for him to be one rather than simply enthusing him with the lust for battle. 

Ain't no tellin.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

It may be rather assumed. After all, the context of Aemon's discussion of tptwp was Stannis. It's not like he'd come out and say "Oh, by the way, Rhaegar and I discovered that the prince that was promised is a warrior. Stannis is a warrior, so... yeah. Carry on."

Entirely possible.

But you will of course understand if I am hesitant to hang my Niners cap on possibilities, when there is a canonical hat rack.

Possibility:  the prince that was promised is a warrior

Canon:  Aegon was Rhaegar's prince that was promised

 

And I hope I do not sound like I am being purposefully obtuse or closed-minded. I am familiar enough with these forums to know that is a common accusation when testing this particular theory.

Instead, I am merely pointing out that we err when confirmation bias forces us to look past what is actually stated (at times, very clearly) in the book in the name of an alternative possibility.

In my opinion, theories should be constructed in the opposite direction.

For example, my starting point, once I got the idea in my head that Lyanna might be Jon's mother, would be Lyanna, and her noise about keeping to one bed.

When assessing Rhaegar as a possible father, I would look at Rhaegar's own noise. One piece of that is naming Aegon as tptwp. Thus, I would attempt to account for a version of Jon Snow that is not tptwp in any scenario of R+L=J.

Of course, as a dutiful husband, he would already be low on my list of possibilities, because we know that Lyanna was betrothed and less than fond of the idea of becoming one more girl in the Vale with a bastard in her belly.

But with that's just me. If I were attempting to construct a theory of RLJ (which I did attempt, as you know... back when I sent you the invitation to write this essay for the XYJ Project) I would begin with Lyanna, rather than Rhaegar. Once I examined Rhaegar, I would take his words into consideration, rather than assume they were mistaken, but think they were valid in another/preferred context.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

There's no reference to Rhaegar reading something in his scrolls that made him feel he had to learn the harp, so it's a bit strong saying it's "just as likely."

Of course not, but unless he was simply born knowing how to play the harp, it required study.

And, it was study that required practice.

You will remember Tyrion's description of books. They are his whetstone.

Well, what was Rhaegar's whetstone?

Books?

An actual whetstone (as a warrior might have)?

Or, the harp?

I would argue it was the latter. Unlike Tyrion, who was wise enough to read about warriors without thinking himself to be one, books did not sharpen Rhaegar. While not an idiot, he wasn't exactly the sharpest sword in the forge.

Tyrion, in spite of being half Rhaegar's height, and seeing far more battle, never died on his knees in a river. And if he ever does, he will certainly have more interesting final words than a woman's name.

Rhaegar died a fool. It is up to us to decide if he was a fool for love, or a fool for stories. Considering his fondness for books and songs, I'm leaning toward the latter.

But I'm wandering off topic. LOL

Back to the harp.

The harp really did serve Rhaegar as a whetstone. It sharpened a skill he actually had, and that was making songs.

His wife asked him for a song for their son, and he knew just the one.

So yeah, I'm going to double down on this one, and proclaim for all here to see that it was just as likely that the owner of the song of ice and fire is a harpist, as it is that the owner of the song of ice and fire is a warrior.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

At the same time, yeah. Which I'm suggesting may point to Rhaegar not doing that, hmm?

I am suggesting the same, actually.

Rather than be like Robert, and put a bastard in the belly of some faraway girl chance met at tourney, I propose that Rhaegar didn't.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I'm talking about the figures that dance in MMD's tent. Read my Puppets of Ice and Fire essay.

Oh. I think I've read that one before.

But if MMD's tent provides the answer, then truly Aemon is correct and Dany is tptwp.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Ok, so that's not a fair example. What I should have said was: "I mean that would be like a Westerling girl falling in love with a Robb Stark". Cool, let's go with that instead.

Much better

But still, rather than be from a house escaping the oppression of a higher lord (House Lannister > House Westerling), and finding sanctuary with a rebel that would end that oppression, Lyanna would have been sleeping with the very enemy that was at that very moment oppressing her house (the roast of Brandon, Rickard's tight collar, and Ned's war).

So yes, on a superficial level, I see the analogy of Jeyne+Robb. But if we look at the circumstances that led Jeyne and Lyanna to their beds of blood, they are far different.

Unless Lyanna did not mind slights made upon the honor of the north, then I find it hard to believe she would have ran away with the heir of the house that was the cause of them.

Once those slights turned to bloodshed, I think it more likely she would have been an angry she-wolf with a list, like Arya, than a swooning paramour.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I totally disagree. If Lyanna's character, beliefs, opinions and ambitions are glossed over, then it's probably because we know almost nothing of them. We have a few hints based on her behaviour, and a single statement about Robert's nature. It's little to go on, but most essays in this series have addressed them as far as they feel there are conclusions to be drawn with anything approaching certainty. You may not agree with the conclusions the author draws as to Lyanna's character and motivations from that limited evidence, but that doesn't mean it was ignored. For example, my RLJ essay and Wolfmaid's RB+L essay both attempt to get a sense of Lyanna's part in it, though we clearly disagree over our interpretations

I am probably being too hard on all of you. My apologies for that.

I know each theorist begins with good intentions. I think all here are good people.

But I also read these essays and can't help but marvel at the amount of time explaining the validity of the male's response to Lyanna (regardless of who it is), and the lack of time spent explaining how Lyanna's actions fit with the character, beliefs, opinions, and ambitions we actually do know were her own.

We would all like more information (not to mention another book), so then why neglect the precious few passages we actually have? Why rationalize them to fit our rationale? Why not take her at her word, and begin from there?

I may be making too much of that, and again, I do apologize. But for me, a rationalization of her words to suit a preferred hypothesis is not an accurate accounting of them.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I think that Jayne's feelings towards Robb would rather depend on Robb's attitude. It would be a very different story if he shrugged his shoulders or even supported Ned's actions, than if he condemned Ned for it and planned to depose him. 

Like Tyrion?

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

A child that had been PROMISED to save the world. Seriously, I have no idea where you're coming from here. TPTWP is all about saving the world. Nobody said he's invulnerable, they said that if he falls, the world falls with him. That's not a reason to give up and not bother trying.

Totally agree.

I am just saying that the "trying" part becomes rather reckless and negligent when it comes to hiding teenagers away from their families.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Yeah, it's always risky, so what are you going to do? Wait until medical technology catches up?

Now, you offend me... Far be it from me to preach abstinence! LOL

No, not at all. But if Lyanna of all people was Rhaegar's choice to be the surrogate for tptwp, it was one that raised those risks greatly. Not only before and during pregnancy, but afterwards.

Imagine Lyanna goes home. There was no war. Everyone understood that she ran away with Rhaegar. What do you think the consequences would be?

Oathbreaking is taken seriously in the north, and Ned himself feared that Robert would kill Cersei and her children if he learned she had been fucking Jaime.

I hope that Lyanna's life would not have been forfeit in the north, but I wouldn't want to test the odds in Westerosi society.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I do agree it's likely Rhaegar would have chosen Lyanna for some actual reason rather than just being the first woman he found.

That's not at all what I am suggesting, but I'm glad you believe Rhaegar was selective when choosing his child-woman.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Not in Westeros, it isn't.

I didn't say forbidden. Only queer.

And made queerer still considering that Lyanna was not Rhaegar's to bed.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Wires seem to have gotten crossed here. My original point was that Rhaegar changed his mind about who the tptwp once, he could do it again.

Addressed above.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I'm not dismissing that. I'm suggesting that we must also consider the possibility that he later changed his mind.

Anything is possible. I agree.

But in my copy of the books, Rhaegar was quite certain.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

We know that Rhaegar had prior form in finding out new information about tptwp, and as a result changing his mind about a previously held belief as to the identity of tptwp. How is dismissing that not a poor method of operation?

I am not dismissing that at all. In fact, I've highlighted it.

Canonically speaking, Rhaegar was quite certain that Aegon was tptwp.

Theoretically speaking, Rhaegar might have changed his mind on that topic quite often. If this is true, then it makes for a poor excuse to impregnate Lyanna and thereby endanger her life and throw the realm into civil war.

What's to stop him from rising from Lyanna's bed of blood, and saying to the window, "There must be one more..." ?

Who knows what lovely 14 year old awaits discovery at the next tourney?

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

She was a child by our standards. You've got to stop applying modern western standards to Westeros, they have different standards. Let me just point out that Lyanna was older than Rhaella was when she had Rhaegar. As far as Rhaegar is concerned, this is perfectly normal. 

Further, keeping to multiple beds is only a problem if you imagine it to be a problem. Nothing says that Rhaegar intended to return to Elia. RLJ does not have to encompass polyamory. It's simply not an issue. 

First of all, we do not know that Rhaegar thought his mother's sexual relationship with his father was normal.

If anything, I would assert that there is some evidence to the contrary.

Secondly, I agree that polyamory is simply not an issue for RLJ. That's sort of my issue with it.

I am merely pointing out that it requires a somewhat biased interpretation of Lyanna's "keep to one bed" statement. If we take Lyanna at her word, it is difficult to see how she would approve of distracting Rhaegar from his wife and children at the age of 14.

Yes, I know she didn't die until 16. But unless it was a forced relationship, Lyanna would have had to have been a consenting and complicit 13-14 year old.

Given her character, opinions, beliefs, and ambitions, that is quite a stretch to believe.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

She might. Of course we don't know that, but she might. It's not completely unreasonable to speculate that she might be ok with a polyamorous relationship. 

No more than it is to speculate that there was no polyamorous relationship involved. 

Agreed. Tis all speculative.

But of course, at least Elia & Ashara's background gives us reason to see it as a possibility, unlike Robert & Lyanna's.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

What? I never said Rhaegar never left Elia's bed. 

Never keeping to one bed and never leaving one bed are not orthogonal. You can leave one bed, and then keep to the next.

Indeed. But isn't that what Robert did?

Unless Lyanna's issue was that Robert did not bed all of his lovers at the same time, in the same bed, then it seems to me Lyanna was speaking of monogamy.

She may have been fine with serial monogamy, but again, that isn't what she said.

When a man keeps to one bed, it is usually difficult for him to father a bastard in another bed.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

No it's not. Misogyny is acting out of a hatred of women. 

Even if you consider that Rhaegar's behaviour towards Lyanna was appalling, and that he mistreated her, that still doesn't make it misogyny. It would only be misogyny if he did so out of a hatred of women. 

Yup. I am familiar with the definition. I am applying the term in a societal sense.

To make a child-woman break a marriage pact is not an act of kindness in Westerosi society. While Rhaegar himself might have been in love, the act itself is not loving.

I am again reminded of Theon's attitude toward the captain's daughter, and LF's remark, "If you bed enough women, some will give you presents." Robert too swore undying love for them...

Which is sort of Lyanna's point to her dearest Ned... but I digress.

Theon and Robert's acts (and Rhaegar's, in your theory) were no kindness. While the heart wants what the heart wants, that does not mean that acting upon such wants is loving.

A 16 year old dead in a bed of blood should be all the proof of that we need, but it is not the only proof available to us. Bad things happen to oathbreakers, and Rhaegar, per your theory, would have made Lyanna break a vow whether it was an act of love/lust/or cosmic prophecy.

Love is sweet, but can cause cavities.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Lyanna keeps getting younger and younger! Lyanna was 16 when she died. That means she became pregnant when she was 15 or 16.

Rhaella was born in 245 or 246. Rhaegar was born in 259. That means she was between 12 and 14 when Rhaegar was conceived. 

Dany was 13.

Tywin thought it perfectly reasonable to demand that Tyrion get 12 year old Sansa immediately pregnant, so as to secure the north with a Lannister/Stark heir. 

All true.

And no, Lyanna is not getting younger and younger. She was 13-14 at the time of the tourney/abduction/runaway.

As stated in the books, such an age is considered young for bedding/motherhood. I am aware that Lyanna was not said to be pregnant at the age of 13-14, as she is never said to have been pregnant at all. And I am also aware that her bed of blood was a gift she received at the age of 16.

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar only wanted to keep Lyanna hidded for a year or two until he started bedding her? That is possible, but makes the abduction seem all the more odd. If it was a willing escapade, the lack of communication seems all the more odd.

At a certain point, this stuff just strains credibility for the sake of proving the theory, and that seems backwards to me.

Moving on.

Dany was 13, and Viserys thought that was in queer taste.

Tywin thought it perfectly reasonable that Tyrion get 12 year old Sansa immediately pregnant, Tyrion thought that was in poor taste.

 

Thus, while not prohibited, it is certainly not encouraged. And again, this reasoning fails to account for Lyanna's own character and convictions, as well as her betrothal to Robert Baratheon and the sanctity of betrothal in Westerosi culture (see the maneuvering and posturing required in order for the small council to annul Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa, and replace it with a betrothal to Margaery . . . no such precautions were made to annul Lyanna's betrothal to Robert).

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I never made any such claim. I have no idea where you got that from, but it wasn't me. Remember how we were debating earlier about the possibility that he may have sought out Lyanna for her Stark blood?

I very intentionally wrote the RLJ essay avoiding any conclusions on whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, because I do not believe such conclusions can be drawn with anything approaching certainty. I think it's a good possibility. Maybe even the strongest possibility, but certainly not the only one. The conclusion of my RLJ essay is that such a possibility is by no means necessary to the case for RLJ.

Perhaps in your essay, but you seem to have forgotten that you've repeatedly justified Rhaegar's abandonment of Elia and his sequestering/bedding of Lyanna by proposing that he may have fallen in true love for the first time in his life.

That is the proposition I was addressing.

 

5 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I agree fully with your principle, I just disagree with your interpretation that those passages do not fit the theory. I don't abandon them, I include them. We differ on whether that works. Otherwise the debate wouldn't be nearly so good!

 

Agreed my friend, as always.

It's a great debate to have, and, as ever, I appreciate you actually having it. That demonstrates strength in my book. Too often disbelief or skepticism on certain points of R+L=J is mocked, and you do not do that. And if you do poke fun, it is good humored. 

But yes, I fear we have not made much progress on the "keep to one bed" issue. And if George publishes R+L=J for true in our lifetimes, I will buy any bridges you still have for sale.

[WSmith84]

36 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah it is just a story....Bella's own "account" "I might be a king's daughter,they say Robert fucked my mother when he stayed here .He fucked all the girls of course but he liked my mom best" 

Nothing but an angle for buisness.Look to Ned.If such a thing had happened seeing as Ned was the one that basically rescued Robert from said brothel;he'd have something to say other than Robert loved Lyanna which is the point.

His own words dispute this notion that Robert wasn't true to Lyanna.You do see why don't you?

Yeah, I'm sure Robert told Ned how he fucked every whore in a brothel despite being engaged to Lyanna. Even Robert is not stupid or insensitive enough to do that. And it's not like this was common knowledge. Unless Ned bothered to go round interviewing brothel-owners, I don't see how he would have found out.

[nanother]

Re: warrior requirement for TPtwP

Quote

 

The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

(A Storm of Swords - Samwell V)

 

1. Maester Aemon very clearly connects the 'war for dawn' to tPtwP. War suggests warrior in general. It's less of a requirement if you have dragons, of course, but, depending on the exact passage, it wouldn't be too surprising if someone (with no dragons for the time being) concluded tPtwP should be a warrior based on that alone. But we also have

2. The PtwP and AA prophecies are at least thickly intertwined, might even be the same. AA is flat out called a warrior and is expected to wield the legendary sword of heroes. Mel clearly thought that the two are the same, and while we can't be sure whether Aemon agreed, he never gave any sign that he didn't (only warned Jon that Stan's Lightbringer was fake).

Of course, the fact that he so readily accepted Dany as the PtwP suggests that (as long as you have dragons) the 'warrior requirement' is somewhat flexible.

[Voice]

7 minutes ago, nanother said:

Re: warrior requirement for TPtwP

1. Maester Aemon very clearly connects the 'war for dawn' to tPtwP. War suggests warrior in general. It's less of a requirement if you have dragons, of course, but, depending on the exact passage, it wouldn't be too surprising if someone (with no dragons for the time being) concluded tPtwP should be a warrior based on that alone. But we also have

2. The PtwP and AA prophecies are at least thickly intertwined, might even be the same. AA is flat out called a warrior and is expected to wield the legendary sword of heroes. Mel clearly thought that the two are the same, and while we can't be sure whether Aemon agreed, he never gave any sign that he didn't (only warned Jon that Stan's Lightbringer was fake).

Of course, the fact that he so readily accepted Dany as the PtwP suggests that (as long as you have dragons) the 'warrior requirement' is somewhat flexible.

 

Yes, but while Mel equates AA and tptwp, as do many of us, we do not know if the same is true for Aemon/Rhaegar. Rhaegar/both may have, but we simply do not know.

And of course, all of Mel's words are suspect considering they culminate in the conclusion that the red comet is the bleeding star and that Stannis is AAR and tptwp (and the laughable suggestion that his toy sword is lightbringer, the sword of heroes).

If the red comet is indeed tptwp's bleeding star (which is the only bit of Mel's testimony that rings true), then tptwp is most probably Dany. Per Aemon, the dragons "prove" it. I don't think a Targaryen would make such a declaration lightly.

While it is possible Aemon flexibly-believed tptwp to be a warrior as well, it may simply that was only Mel's interpretation (and even she associates it with Azor Ahai, rather than tptwp).

Titles, titles. LOL

[nanother]

4 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Yes, but while Mel equates AA and tptwp, as do many of us, we do not know if the same is true for Aemon/Rhaegar. Rhaegar/both may have, but we simply do not know.

And of course, all of Mel's words are suspect considering they culminate in the conclusion that the red comet is the bleeding star and that Stannis is AAR and tptwp (and the laughable suggestion that his toy sword is lightbringer, the sword of heroes).

If the red comet is indeed tptwp's bleeding star (which is the only bit of Mel's testimony that rings true), then tptwp is most probably Dany. Per Aemon, the dragons "prove" it. I don't think a Targaryen would make such a declaration lightly.

While it is possible Aemon flexibly-believed tptwp to be a warrior as well, it may simply that was only Mel's interpretation (and even she associates it with Azor Ahai, rather than tptwp).

Titles, titles. LOL

It's a bit stronger than 'may have'. Aemon goes along with Mel's charade without ever giving any indication he disagrees. The only thing he voices disagreement with is Stannis's sword being Lightbringer and thus him being AA/tPtwP.

Quote

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope.

I'd say, considering his substantial knowledge of the AA legend, it's almost certain that Aemon considered its relationship to the PtwP. And considering that he never indicated disagreement, it's highly likely that he suspected them to be the same, or even believed to be the same. So, if working from the same source material, tPtwP=warrior seems a pretty natural conclusion for Rhaegar to come to.