A Deeper Look: Analysing Theon's conversation with the Hooded Man

[Ashes Of Westeros]

On 9/17/2016 at 4:38 AM, Lurid Jester said:

Besides, do we have any reason to believe Theon is familiar with Howland?

Nope. It seems that Reed hasn't left the Neck after the Rebellion. I couldn't find any text evidence that he fought against Greyjoy's rebellion.

I don't think that Theon would be afraid of some person just because he's unfamiliar to him. Winterfell was overrun with the Northern lords and their people. I don't think that Theon knew them all.

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, forod said:

Theon wonders if the HM is the killer, and the text in the passage implies Theon isn't familiar with the man, whoever he is.

I dunno, it's iffy.

 

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

"I'm not. I never ... I was ironborn."

"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"

"The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering it this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsey is not done with me."

The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."

 

So from that I think we can conclude that the HM definitely knows Theon on sight, and that this is the first time he has seen Theon in a while. I think it is also pretty clear that the man is highborn, judging by his speech, but it is possible that he is a commoner. But either way, if Theon doesn't recognize him, then the HM is very unlikely to have been at Winterfell for any length of time. AFAIK, no Frey or northern reinforcements have arrived recently and, correct me if I'm wrong, there is still no sign of Mors Umber at this point. I think we can rule out Mors anyway, though, because Theon probably would have noticed that one of his eyes was made of dragonglass. So perhaps one of Mors' men whom Theon might not recognize has slipped into the castle, but then why would he be striding across the yard as carefree as you please? And from a literary standpoint it seems a little odd to introduce a new character in this way; but on the other hand, this is Martin we're talking about.

 

[forod]

53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I dunno, it's iffy.

 

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

"I'm not. I never ... I was ironborn."

"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"

"The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering it this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsey is not done with me."

The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."

 

So from that I think we can conclude that the HM definitely knows Theon on sight, and that this is the first time he has seen Theon in a while. I think it is also pretty clear that the man is highborn, judging by his speech, but it is possible that he is a commoner. But either way, if Theon doesn't recognize him, then the HM is very unlikely to have been at Winterfell for any length of time. AFAIK, no Frey or northern reinforcements have arrived recently and, correct me if I'm wrong, there is still no sign of Mors Umber at this point. I think we can rule out Mors anyway, though, because Theon probably would have noticed that one of his eyes was made of dragonglass. So perhaps one of Mors' men whom Theon might not recognize has slipped into the castle, but then why would he be striding across the yard as carefree as you please? And from a literary standpoint it seems a little odd to introduce a new character in this way; but on the other hand, this is Martin we're talking about.

 

I suppose, my theory is that it is Theon himself anyway, but it is an interesting idea. In terms of linking it to my theory, I would suggest that the ambiguity of Theon's familiarity with the character symbolizes Theon's distance from his true self, but his memory of what he was like create the ambiguity and imply he may know the HM.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 minutes ago, forod said:

I suppose, my theory is that it is Theon himself anyway, but it is an interesting idea. In terms of linking it to my theory, I would suggest that the ambiguity of Theon's familiarity with the character symbolizes Theon's distance from his true self, but his memory of what he was like create the ambiguity and imply he may know the HM.  

Since Theon is talking to the ghost of his former self, and since the author doesn't want to state expressly that he is talking to the ghost of his former self, there is no spoken recognition. That Theon doesn't wonder who the man is, but engages him in conversation, going so far as to show him his mutilated hands, which he tries to hide from everyone else, suggests that Theon is very familiar with the so-called hooded man. 

[Makk]

I have always felt the argument that the meeting was Theon's tortured self conscious and the symbolic turning point of when he started to reclaim himself to be far more convincing than anything else. It just feels right to me. There are a couple of interesting points to the counter, like the dicing mentioned earlier, these are like the very subtle clues GRRM might throw in. I do also like the GNC theory and someone like Harwin could play into that. But on the whole I find the argument much weaker than the symbolism involved if it is Theon himself.

[JLE]

The murders are all accounted for (Mance's spearwives), except for Little Walder which they deny.

At the very least, Big Walder is a suspect in Little Walder's murder - as are the soldiers of Manderly, whether on Wyman's orders or not. Whether the Hooded Man is a figment of Theon's imagination or a real person, there is no necessity for him to be added to the list of suspects.

Certainly not Mors Umber, who is (a) a whole lot older - he is the Greatjon's eldest uncle: and his younger brother Hother (leading the apparently pro-Bolton faction of House Umber) is apparently already an aging greybeard, like all his men.

(Which again suggests that the split in House Umber is superficial, not real: if the two halves of the house come to opposite sides of a battlefield, the grandfathers will not kill their grandsons and destroy the clan with it. The fact that the Umbers have put ALL their young people OUTSIDE of Winterfell - and not under Bolton control - shows which way they think the future of the North will go: the future is not with House Bolton. Which in turn means that Hother, too, is a Stark loyalist, waging warfare against House Bolton in the only practical way that he and his old men can - by eating their supplies which could otherwise be used to feed troops that were (a) more loyal and (b) young enough to be useful in a fight, so that Bolton's troops are starved by attrition while the Young Umbers - when not out raiding with Mors - are living on their own land, off their own supplies and beholden to nobody but themselves. At the end of the winter, they will *be* House Umber, and the old men will be dead whether they have fought or not.)

Could it be Mance in disguise? The fact that the murders have already started, means that Mance's spearwives - and therefore the man himself - are already present. And Mance has been to Winterfell before, possibly more than once, and as a bard and a spy, you learn and remember things that many others would forget. He may know things about Theon's past that others in Winterfell don't.

I've seen the arguments for Hallis Mollen (sent north by Catelyn), or even Septon Chayle (thrown down the well and believed drowned, but not QUITE a certainty that he died either at Theon's or Ramsay's hands.)

[Voice]

On 9/15/2016 at 5:19 AM, forod said:

I would also like to draw attention to the title of the chaper; A Ghost In Winterfell. We are led to believe Reek is the eponymous ghost, but it is just as likely the Hooded Man, a ghost of the real Theon Greyjoy. 

"Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer. "I'm not. I never...I was Ironborn. "False is all you were. How is it you still breathe."

Anyone else catch the "neverborn" reference?

 

I've been a fan of "Theon Durden" ever since I first read about it. I really like this interpretation of the theory though, and I'm an even bigger fan of Theon's archetype chapters:

The Prince of Winterfell - the ascent of "Brandon" (note "Brandon" means "Prince") as "the Builder." 

The Turncloak - the transformation of "Brandon ("Prince") the Builder" into the Night's King.

The Ghost of Winterfell - the origin of the Others and the bastard's absolution.

 

Applying the man with a hood to Brandon the Builder (the original Prince/Turncloak/Ghost), it is easy to see that BtB/NK underwent/is undergoing a similar identity crisis. Theon~Reek~Theon, Last Hero~Night's King~And the pursuit of absolution.

Brandon just wants his sword back so he can rest in the crypts.