On Jon Snow's ultimate fate

[IceFire125]

42 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

What would be the point of R+L=J if Jon doesn't become King at the end?

I don't think it's to fulfill a prophecy, for example, because if GRRM needed, say, the prince that was promised to be a Stark bastard and not a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella, he would've done it. Also, Bran's first chapter happens to be the first he wrote, and it's obvious if you read it that GRRM has always known that Jon isn't really Ned's son and is the rightful king of Westeros. For example:

So he must have had this fact in mind since the beginning, and constructed Jon's entire storyline around it. This precedes his development of the numerous prophecies in the series.

And GRRM also gave this... 

“We saw Uncle Benjen when the king came to visit,” Robb pointed out. “Jon will visit too, you’ll see.”

 

[TyrionTLannister]

 

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“King,” croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont’s shoulder. “King,” it said again, strutting back and forth. “He likes that word,” Jon said, smiling. “An easy word to say. An easy word to like.” “King,” the bird said again. “I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.” “The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow. It made him feel odd. - ACOK Jon 

“Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate.” - ASOS Jon

The transition from “Snow” to a royal title is interesting. 

The next few quotes suggest he'll live a long life.

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Jon took off his helm as the other boys were pulling Grenn to his feet. The frosty morning air felt good on his face. He leaned on his sword, drew a deep breath, and allowed himself a moment to savor the victory. “That is a longsword, not an old man’s cane,” Ser Alliser said sharply. “Are your legs hurting, Lord Snow?” - AGOT Jon

It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion. - ADWD Jon

He was awake when Owen came to him, lying restless under a pile of furs on the floor of the warming shed. “Lord Snow,” said Owen, shaking his shoulder, “the dawn.” - ASOS Jon

This might mean he will live long enough to at least see the end of the War for the Dawn.

I'm curious what people think about the quotes suggesting Jon will outlive the other main characters, including his siblings. This means they will all die at some point before the end. 
 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 17/12/2016 at 9:31 PM, IceFire125 said:

And GRRM also gave this... 

“We saw Uncle Benjen when the king came to visit,” Robb pointed out. “Jon will visit too, you’ll see.”

 

That is a new one. I haven't seen that before and I cannot say that I don't like it  Sure King Jon will visit his father's house at some point.

[velo-knight]

On 12/17/2016 at 2:31 PM, IceFire125 said:

And GRRM also gave this... 

“We saw Uncle Benjen when the king came to visit,” Robb pointed out. “Jon will visit too, you’ll see.”

 

ooooooh! I like this one. It is especially interesting, because a common argument against Jon's kingship is that the royal symbolism associated with him is "just" a hint at his true parentage, or that he somehow was a king but is not anymore.

This quote seems like clear foreshadowing that he will, in fact, visit as a King.

[GloubieBoulga]

Perhaps, but Robb said that Ned Stark wouldn't die too, and he was wrong (but perhaps he says the truth in a certain way if Ned"s Stark soul didn't found peace, but this is a "symbolic" interpretation). He says also that he knows that Bran won't die (AGOT, Jon II) and this quote is sometime interpreted as another "mistake" ( =Bran will die at the end of the saga). 

So, he could mistaken here too : - Jon could never be official king; - Jon could never come back to Winterfell. Or he could do both in a unexpected way (for example be honored as king after his death being burried in an ancient royal barrow, after his body make a stop at ruined Winterfell : I don't say it is what will happen, but only that the quotes could foreshadow this kind of end ^^)

[Julia H.]

Speaking of wrong prophecies, I find this one, by Lord Commander Mormont, especially noteworthy:

“They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung."

This prediction is spectacularly wrong regarding Robb. Although Robb was elected a king, he ruled for a short while only and he never actually set foot in his main country (the North) as a king. Far from wearing silks and velvet, he spent all his time as a king basically in ringmail and on horseback going from battle to battle. He married Jeyne Westerling - not exactly a princess - and so far we haven't heard of a single baby he fathered on her, let alone sons, in the plural. Despite his battle victories, the only actual song that has become associated with him is The Rains of Castamere, sadly. 

For Jon, Mormont predicts just the opposite: He predicts that Jon will live and die in black ringmail (the ringmail of the Night's Watch), that he will never have a wife or hold a child of his own blood in his arms, that Jon will always serve (clearly he has served, just as Robb has ruled - for a while), and that his greatest deeds will all go unsung. If Mormont could be so wrong about Robb, I have the feeling that he may be equally wrong about Jon. 

[velo-knight]

4 hours ago, Julia H. said:

For Jon, Mormont predicts just the opposite: He predicts that Jon will live and die in black ringmail (the ringmail of the Night's Watch), that he will never have a wife or hold a child of his own blood in his arms, that Jon will always serve (clearly he has served, just as Robb has ruled - for a while), and that his greatest deeds will all go unsung. If Mormont could be so wrong about Robb, I have the feeling that he may be equally wrong about Jon. 

Interesting. I wonder if there are any other parallels in the series of siblings whose ultimate roles may be opposites of their prophesized ones.

Given that Jon rules even now as LC of the Night's Watch, you could argue he's already wrong about Jon.

[GloubieBoulga]

let's be pretty sure that the Old Bear is almost wrong about this : 

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 Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung

... or maybe he could be right at the end, and there would be only GRRM to sing every little thing Jon does 

[Julia H.]

42 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

Given that Jon rules even now as LC of the Night's Watch, you could argue he's already wrong about Jon.

That's true, but simply being an NW member means serving - serving the realm, regardless of rank. Their vow excludes any real personal glory or gain, while they are expected to give up life, honour and whatever they personally hold dear for the realm.

Then again, in Jon Snow's interpretation, being a king may mean just a different way of serving the realm, as he would focus on his duties and responsibilities rather than on the privileges that normally come with the title. 

 

[velo-knight]

6 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

That's true, but simply being an NW member means serving - serving the realm, regardless of rank. Their vow excludes any real personal glory or gain, while they are expected to give up life, honour and whatever they personally hold dear for the realm.

Then again, in Jon Snow's interpretation, being a king may mean just a different way of serving the realm, as he would focus on his duties and responsibilities rather than on the privileges that normally come with the title. 

 

Yeah, and I feel that the same can be argued of a Lord as well - you rule, but you serve. Ideally, you serve your people and your liege, but you always are supposed to serve your liege.

[Julia H.]

54 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

Interesting. I wonder if there are any other parallels in the series of siblings whose ultimate roles may be opposites of their prophesized ones.

 

I can't think of any other prophecies or predictions, however, there is this exchange between Ned and Cat in AGoT about two Stark brothers:

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

"Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not."

Here Ned is very similar to Jon, who always thinks he has no right to any Stark heritage, because it all belongs to Robb, but Robb is now dead and he has duties... It's interesting that it is Cat who points that out in the story, with regard to Ned.

[TyrionTLannister]

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Perhaps, but Robb said that Ned Stark wouldn't die too, and he was wrong (but perhaps he says the truth in a certain way if Ned"s Stark soul didn't found peace, but this is a "symbolic" interpretation). He says also that he knows that Bran won't die (AGOT, Jon II) and this quote is sometime interpreted as another "mistake" ( =Bran will die at the end of the saga). 

So, he could mistaken here too : - Jon could never be official king; - Jon could never come back to Winterfell. Or he could do both in a unexpected way (for example be honored as king after his death being burried in an ancient royal barrow, after his body make a stop at ruined Winterfell : I don't say it is what will happen, but only that the quotes could foreshadow this kind of end ^^)

Good point. But that doesn't necessarily mean Jon will never visit Winterfell. Robb meant that Jon would visit as a member of the Night's Watch, like Benjen did. So we could take it mean that Jon won't be in the Night's Watch the next time he visits.

[velo-knight]

Just now, Julia H. said:

I can't think of any other prophecies or predictions, however, there is this exchange between Ned and Cat in AGoT about two Stark brothers:

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

"Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not.

Here Ned is very similar to Jon, who always thinks he has no right to any Stark heritage, because it all belongs to Robb, but Robb is now dead... It's interesting that it is Cat who points that out in the story.

It's definitely ironic. It really is too bad Cat died without finding out about RLJ - I would've been interested in her feelings after that point. I wonder if Lady Stoneheart and Jon will ever meet, and if so, if Jon's likely guilt over his status as bastard and possibly deserter will be a point for her to attack.

[TyrionTLannister]

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Interesting. I wonder if there are any other parallels in the series of siblings whose ultimate roles may be opposites of their prophesized ones.

Sansa and Arya. Sansa grew up dreaming about marrying the king and becoming Queen, bearing his children, etc., whereas Arya wanted nothing of the sort. The funny thing is, Arya might end up living the life her sister always dreamed about but she never wanted by marrying Jon at the end.

[TyrionTLannister]

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“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “ Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. “Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!” - AGOT Catelyn

The Greatjon makes the case for why Jon would be a great King of Westeros for the northerners. He grew up in the North and understands their way of life, his gods are the right gods in their eyes, and so on.

[Darth Sidious]

On 12/3/2016 at 8:09 PM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Jon's ultimate fate?  Medium-rare inside and blackened on the outside. 

Jon will be the third treason in Dany's visions from the House of the Undying.  They will both learn of Jon's parentage and will become close but not in a romantic sense.  Love doesn't just come in the form of romance after all.  Jon will agree to have the wildlings bend the knee if Daenerys and her armies help push the White Walkers out of the north.  The nobility in the north would have fallen by this time and the wildlings will hold power in the north but they will not be strong enough to defend against the White Walkers. Daenerys and her armies will be successful in repelling the White Walkers and pushing them back to the other side of the wall.  However, Jon will refuse to make the wildlings bend the knee, he will not honor the deal,  and declare independence for the north because he loves the wildlings.  Daenerys will capture him and even though she cares for him (the fire to love), she will barbecue him for treason.  Which is how Dany executes traitors.  Jon might be able to warg Ghost and live out his second life as the white direwolf.  The last scene of the story will be Daenerys on Drogon, flying over a snow-covered Winterell, watching the white direwolf running free below. 

Medium-rare inside and blackened on the outside.  Pink on the inside, black on the outside.  The way Drogon likes his meal.  Jon's physical remains end up as dragon dung.  His soul ends up inside Ghost. 

[Jon Snow is a loser]

On 12/20/2016 at 0:37 PM, Total Eclipse of the Heart said:

Medium-rare inside and blackened on the outside.  Pink on the inside, black on the outside.  The way Drogon likes his meal.  Jon's physical remains end up as dragon dung.  His soul ends up inside Ghost. 

That is absolutely a fitting end for him! 

[Lord Wraith]

Jon will likely end up as King of the North and the Free Folk and be a key player in making peace with the Others.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Some unrealistic predictions here. But also some very good references to great foreshadowing.

Firstly, the unrealistic ones. The Free Folk aren't going to be a major factor in the North. They number perhaps 10,000 survivors. Call it 30,000 even, if every single surviving wildling makes it south of the Wall.(Note that currently less than 4,000 have passed through the Wall, and the survival chances of those remaining in the Haunted Forest look rather grim).  Compare that to 4 million or more Northmen. The Wildlings are never going to be a dominant demographic factor in the North. So Jon would be a bigger factor leading the Skagosi, quite frankly, than the Wildlings.

Hence, he is not going to play some major leadership role as King of the Wildlings or some such scenario.

Regarding the foreshadowing to him becoming King, that is far clearer. I have said before, I believe Daenerys's arc is that of Conqueror, while Jon's is that of Ruler. Jon's arc has neither the time, nor the character development for him to ever focus on conquering the Seven Kingdoms. And let's be honest, the Targaryen Dynasty has been overthrown, so the only way back for it is via Conquest. Like Aegon did it the first time around. That is Dany's arc. She will restore the Targaryen dynasty.

Jon, however, is clearly foreshadowed to be King, eventually. The clues are either a massive case of misdirection, which serves no narrative purpose, or Jon will be King eventually. So how to achieve that? Well, George has said that a number of people will sit on the Iron Throne before the end. And that there will be a bittersweet ending.

So to me the likely scenario is that Daenerys takes the Throne, she plays a critical role in the War for the Dawn, and dies at its end. Jon will then be her heir, and be the "Jahaerys the Conciliator" who rules the Realm for 50 years thereafter. Doing it out of duty, and not out of a desire for the Crown. Visiting Winterfell as often as possible, where his "brother" Bran will be Lord of Winterfell, with Rickon as his heir. And when Bran eventually merges with Winterfell's Heart Tree at the end of his life, his brother Rickon or Rickon's sons will rule Winterfell thereafter.

I also half expect Jon to abdicate the Throne towards the end of his life and become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch again until his death. Thus ultimately coming full circle and swearing his Oaths again. That's if the Night's Watch still exists and the lop sided Seasons haven't been ended by the War of the Dawn.