The Night's Kings pale Sorceress. Who was she. What was her agenda.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I like that. We are promised a vision of the 'lands of always winter'. How is this pull out logistically, I don't know. I always assumed it will be through Bran.

That would depend on whether there are any weirwoods in the Lands of Always Winter. I'd be surprised if they grew there. However, Bran could also investigate the Lands of Always Winter by sending ravens or other birds there. The idea that he could ever physically go there isn't very likely.

I could see a Jon Snow imbued with Mel's fire magic go on some solo mission beyond the Wall considering that this might actually enable to survive the conditions in the far north much better than any 'normal human being' but that would take a rather long time.

15 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I'm not sure about getting enthralled. We don't see that with Thoros&Beric. But Jon will finally recognize her power and hopefully use that.

I was not thinking about him becoming some mindless drone, rather a sort of weird obsessive relationship based on and fueled by the fact that she saved him from death/restored him to life. And if he ends up being trapped in Ghost for weeks or even months before they can transfer him back into his body he would also need a lot of help becoming 'human' again. We know that skinchangers gradually lose their humanity after they have begun their second life and we don't know whether such effects are reversable after a skinchanger is magically transfered back into his resurrected human body.

15 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

From the last interactions with Jon in aDwD, I get the feeling that Mel is already seeing that something is wrong with her previous assumptions.

I really don't see that. And I don't believe Jon's resurrection/return from the dead is going to have an impact on Mel's interpretation of the Azor Ahai prophecy. As long as Jon's true heritage isn't on the table nobody is likely to see him connected to the savior prophecy. There are certain conditions a person fulfilling those prophecies has to meet and being a Stark bastard is none of those.

Granted, if it turned out that Stannis is actually not going to survive the battle(s) against the Boltons and if they are even victorious for the time being, then Melisandre would most likely be forced to rethink her entire view on things. But that's not very likely in my opinion. The whole Shireen thing is making that unlikely. Stannis will return and continue to lead the resistance against the Others until things get worse and worse.

It could easily enough come to some sort of split between Stannis' people and Jon Snow's faction on how to attack/deal with the Others, possibly laying the groundwork as to why Stannis will fail in the end but why Jon is not going to go down with him. But this is really very difficult to predict right now.

We don't even know how Bran's apparent overtures to Stannis in Theon 1 are going to fit in with Stannis' previous attacks on the old gods as well as with Melisandre's wrong belief that Bloodraven and Bran are working for the enemy. How are these plot points going to continue? Are Stannis, Bran, and Mel able and willing to work together eventually or not?

[rotting sea cow]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I really don't see that. And I don't believe Jon's resurrection/return from the dead is going to have an impact on Mel's interpretation of the Azor Ahai prophecy. As long as Jon's true heritage isn't on the table nobody is likely to see him connected to the savior prophecy. There are certain conditions a person fulfilling those prophecies has to meet and being a Stark bastard is none of those.
 

My suspicion is that she is finally understanding that Snow has an more important part to play and her interpretation of the AA prophesy is too literal (like many online fans :-). This also connect to the OP. The Night King, Last Hero, AA, Long Night, etc. are all supposed to be myths in this particular universe (like the Deluge in ours), whose real events are lost in the eons and the tales we hear only provide guidance subject to interpretation. Things are going to play somewhat different than the last time.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

My suspicion is that she is finally understanding that Snow has an more important part to play and her interpretation of the AA prophesy is too literal (like many online fans :-).

Well, Melisandre's interpretation of the prophecy certainly isn't all that literal. Stannis doesn't have a literal Lightbringer, he has a fake one, and Stannis wasn't born on Dragonstone nor was he born a prince or bears the name Targaryen. He doesn't fit the prophecy all that well in any literal sense.

And even if Jon's true parentage would be finally revealed he wasn't born a prince, either. Edric Storm is Robert's bastard just as Jon might be Rhaegar's - this kind of thing doesn't make you savior material in Melisandre's mind. In fact, it makes you sacrifice material...

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

This also connect to the OP. The Night King, Last Hero, AA, Long Night, etc. are all supposed to be myths in this particular universe (like the Deluge in ours), whose real events are lost in the eons and the tales we hear only provide guidance subject to interpretation. Things are going to play somewhat different than the last time.

We have no reason to believe that history repeats itself in this context or that historical/mythological events work as guidelines for future events.

[Jon Fossoway]

At first read I remember thinking it was a morallistic fundational story for the Night's Watch vow, since the Night's King broke every vow in a succesion of events and doings: marrying, bringing a woman to the Nightfort, he possibly had children, made the Nightfort apparently a kingdom of his own. If the Night's Watch was founded as a religious order, this was a serious transgression, so over time, the original tale may have been blurred and gotten its unnatural, unholy feats.

On the other hand, there might be more into the tale. I remember the Ice Meli toy a dude made on a specific request from Martin, in tune with the OP's idea of an Ice sorceress.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/media/catalog/product/D/S/DSM5003_3.jpg

 

[Ice Queen]

On 12/16/2016 at 8:27 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

I mentioned maegi in the OP more like possibly trying to envision her as a woman beyond the Wall with some kind of knowledge of spells, or some kind of power perhaps? Other terms beyond the wall for such women are Woods Witch and the like.

Its just a personal idea really with no text to back it up apart from she is referred to as a Sorceress, just me personally envisioning the woman as more than just a regular woman you know what i mean?. Although her Sorceress status could just come from the transformation from normal woman to the pale skinned strange blue eyed woman she became and the magical power that came with that.

If I may...

Val fits this description. Her sister Dalla was reknown in her own right even before she married Mance as a "wise woman". Val is cut from the same cloth. Jon even thinks she'd be more than a worthy wife, but she's more than a bargaining chip. She's a healer, and a skilled one at that. ALL the wildlings respect her, from Mance to Tormund. She might be the only woman who can travel anywhere she wants north of the Wall and not be set upon, raped or killed. Healers are of great value in any society. (If you're Tolkien, it's a sign of royalty, but this isn't Tolkien.)

You mention blue and I think that's spot on, but Val is consistently associated with white and Ghost. As Jon thinks, they look like they belong together. She is of the old gods, as is Ghost. There are many references to the moon and stars when she's described physically. 

I know a lot of people are thinking Mel is going to bring back Jon. I don't think so. I think it will be Val. 

Edit: The story of the Nights King and his queen reminds me of the story of Rhiannon and Pwyll from Welsh mythology. Pwyll chases her but can never catch her until he pleads with her to stop. Long story short, Rhiannon is essentially the wronged wife, accused of infanticide when she never killed her son. She loved her husband and children dearly. The name Rhiannon means "night queen" or "great queen". 

 

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

At first read I remember thinking it was a morallistic fundational story for the Night's Watch vow, since the Night's King broke every vow in a succesion of events and doings: marrying, bringing a woman to the Nightfort, he possibly had children, made the Nightfort apparently a kingdom of his own. If the Night's Watch was founded as a religious order, this was a serious transgression, so over time, the original tale may have been blurred and gotten its unnatural, unholy feats.

On the other hand, there might be more into the tale. I remember the Ice Meli toy a dude made on a specific request from Martin, in tune with the OP's idea of an Ice sorceress.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/media/catalog/product/D/S/DSM5003_3.jpg

If the corpse queen wasn't killed - and we don't know what happened to her - there is a pretty good chance that she is still around. However, if she is still around that would only make sense if she was no longer mortal - i.e. either an Other, a wight, or a spirit living in a wight's body.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Lord Varys

Quote

Well, actually, we don't know whether the Night's queen was some kind of sorceress. Could very well be but if she was an Other or a wight then she would have been a magical creature without being a sorceress. Giving your soul to somebody during intercourse sounds a lot like misogynistic talk rather than an actual spell we ever witnessed in this series. I mean, Stannis is still himself, right, despite the fact that he enjoys having sex with Mel.

And also keep in mind that her skin is compared to that of a corpse - which is never done with either Melisandre or Cersei who both also have very pale skin.

Well, actually, she is described as a Sorceress in the text so it's really not doing any harm to think that she may well actually be some kind of Icy counter to something like Melisandre who is also described as a Sorceress.

Someone has already countered that Mels sessions with Stannis drastically changed the man so that's covered.

Yes her skin is compared that way in that it is as "pale as a corpse", that's the only comparison really to her being corpse like. It's never said she was "a corpse", or a female Other for that matter. The corpse reference is just to say she was really pale you know?

Infact, what she is referred to is a woman, more than once. And a Sorceress. So I am led to believe (by the text on the page) that she wasn't a female Other,and If she was some kind of Wight which I can't rule out it's likely not one who looks like the Wights we have read about. 

Quote

I mean, if there was any mentioning of ice sorceresses in this story I'd say you have a point but there are none of that sort

I'm quite sure she qualifies as an Icy Sorceress going by the text, because let's face it, the text is the best thing to use when discussing books is it not??

"A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well."

"The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night's King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king."

Why, now doesn't that sound quite like an Icy Sorceress to you?.

So Lord Varys you are saying I have a point yes...

Quote

I meant wight in the sense of wights created by the Others. The hands of the Night's King's wife are never described so they could very well have been black. Or not, because the Others were using a glamor to disguise the woman they sent to the Night's King. It is not that we get a very clear picture of this woman in the story. And if a glamor was involved it could easily enough also have been a male Other feigning to be a gorgeous 'corpse queen'.

So you believe she is a Wight like we have seen in the story. That's what I wanted you to clarify. My personal belief is that her hands were not black. And if you think a glamor has been used then you have just kind of agreed with me that this "woman" could well be the Icy counter to Melisandre, who is also glamored I do believe. (Let's not bicker about that, I'm sure we can agree there).

I think speculating that she was a male Other is nothing short of ridiculous and is taking things in a silly direction.

I can vibe with the idea she is some kind of Ice Wight woman, although I'm unsure in what sense, is Mel some kind of fire Wight? Who knows. But there is no denying whatsoever that there are similarities between Mel and this woman wherein Mel is a Sorceress who is an embodiment of fire while this other Sorceress is described as what sounds like an embodiment of Ice. 

These comparisons can't be thrown to the side.

By the way sorry about the wait, busy time of year. 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 17/12/2016 at 4:04 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I wonder if it might have something to do with this...

  Hide contents

The Forsaken, Winds

 

There are quite a few instances with pale fire in the series, including the time where Mel is burning the three leeches. Because the part you stated also describes the woman as a shadow I always thought this was connected to Melisandre. Hard to tell but if true then could it mean Euron and Melisandre may interact? Interesting to keep an eye out for that. 

[Macgregor of the North]

19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

No. You are not. 

Had a chuckle at this. It made me think of the Jaqen "theory".

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

If I may...

Val fits this description. Her sister Dalla was reknown in her own right even before she married Mance as a "wise woman". Val is cut from the same cloth. Jon even thinks she'd be more than a worthy wife, but she's more than a bargaining chip. She's a healer, and a skilled one at that. ALL the wildlings respect her, from Mance to Tormund. She might be the only woman who can travel anywhere she wants north of the Wall and not be set upon, raped or killed. Healers are of great value in any society. (If you're Tolkien, it's a sign of royalty, but this isn't Tolkien.)

You mention blue and I think that's spot on, but Val is consistently associated with white and Ghost. As Jon thinks, they look like they belong together. She is of the old gods, as is Ghost. There are many references to the moon and stars when she's described physically. 

I know a lot of people are thinking Mel is going to bring back Jon. I don't think so. I think it will be Val. 

Edit: The story of the Nights King and his queen reminds me of the story of Rhiannon and Pwyll from Welsh mythology. Pwyll chases her but can never catch her until he pleads with her to stop. Long story short, Rhiannon is essentially the wronged wife, accused of infanticide when she never killed her son. She loved her husband and children dearly. The name Rhiannon means "night queen" or "great queen". 

 

I do kind of see where people are coming from with the Val comparison but if she is in some way connected to this pale sorceress bride of the Nights King then would this mean that she will eventually go down a terrible path that sees her in league with the Others?

At least in the Mel comparisons we see Mel being totally pro fire and R'hllor etc whereas the Blue woman as I call her is totally pro Others and their higher power etc. In tune with The Ice and Fire vibe of the whole series.

So do you think Val has this kind of direction in her storyline? 

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

At first read I remember thinking it was a morallistic fundational story for the Night's Watch vow, since the Night's King broke every vow in a succesion of events and doings: marrying, bringing a woman to the Nightfort, he possibly had children, made the Nightfort apparently a kingdom of his own. If the Night's Watch was founded as a religious order, this was a serious transgression, so over time, the original tale may have been blurred and gotten its unnatural, unholy feats.

On the other hand, there might be more into the tale. I remember the Ice Meli toy a dude made on a specific request from Martin, in tune with the OP's idea of an Ice sorceress.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/media/catalog/product/D/S/DSM5003_3.jpg

 

I have saw this figure a few times, is there anything in particular GRRM has said about it? Anything to tie it to the pale sorceress that corrupts the Nights King? I may have a dig around for anything like that. 

I remember once thinking this was an idea of Melisandre possibly being corrupted and turned into some kind of instrument of the Others but I'll admit those were just my own ideas and nothing I've ever read from GRRM to influence them. 

Edit.

I had a dig around to see info on this woman figure but this particular mini figure is not even on any of the sites to purchase anymore. It's like it doesn't exist. Strange.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Lord Varys

Well, actually, she is described as a Sorceress in the text so it's really not doing any harm to think that she may well actually be some kind of Icy counter to something like Melisandre who is also described as a Sorceress.

We have to get things in order here. I'm not necessarily rejecting the idea that the woman might have been a sorceress but if she is still around during the series - meaning she must have lived/existed for thousands of years - then I find the idea that she is just a human sorceress (like, say, a daughter of a Barrow King) not very convincing.

Another thing is the question whether there are ice sorceresses as sort of oppositions to the red priests. I don't find that idea very convincing since as of yet we have no reason to believe that cults, magical traditions, or religions exist that worship the cold and the ice nor do we see anybody aside from the Others practice ice magic.

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Someone has already countered that Mels sessions with Stannis drastically changed the man so that's covered.

Mel affected his body and his life force but not his character. Early on in ACoK people like Cressen and Davos are under the impression that Stannis is controlled or was changed by Mel but it is later made clear that this isn't the case. The man just chose to follow Melisandre's advice because he realized she had powers he could use for his cause.

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yes her skin is compared that way in that it is as "pale as a corpse", that's the only comparison really to her being corpse like. It's never said she was "a corpse", or a female Other for that matter. The corpse reference is just to say she was really pale you know?

But describing somebody as being 'as pale as a corpse' isn't really a compliment. Corpses are ugly not beautiful. And comparing a beautiful woman's skin color to that of a corpse pretty much suggests she isn't really beautiful or at least very dangerous. The same goes for the eyes of the woman (reminiscent of the Others and wights) as well as about the fact that her skin is also supposed to be very cold (which suggests she might be an Other or a wight - essentially a living corpse - too).

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well."

"The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night's King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king."

Why, now doesn't that sound quite like an Icy Sorceress to you?

It sounds to me as if George was trying very hard to associate and connect that woman with the Others and their servants. The fact that the story make the Night's King see from atop the Wall makes it actually very likely she came from north, not south, making it rather unlikely she was some Barrow King's daughter. But then, we don't know in what direction he was looking when he allegedly saw. But if he was true to his vows at this point he should have been looking north not south.

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

So you believe she is a Wight like we have seen in the story. That's what I wanted you to clarify. My personal belief is that her hands were not black. And if you think a glamor has been used then you have just kind of agreed with me that this "woman" could well be the Icy counter to Melisandre, who is also glamored I do believe. (Let's not bicker about that, I'm sure we can agree there).

On what do you base your personal belief that her hands weren't black? Have you seen them? And if she had black hands gloves could have concealed them. We don't have to think about glamors there. A beautiful woman could also make a make a reasonably beautiful wight.

Mel might also wear a glamor but glamors are illusions. They don't really transform you. Mel might be able to appear differently in other people's eyes but she could not possibly feign to be as hot as her body actually is. The same would go for the corpse queen. She really was cold as ice if the stories are true.

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I think speculating that she was a male Other is nothing short of ridiculous and is taking things in a silly direction.

I don't think so. But that would only be the option if we were to agree that she could not possibly have been a wight. The fact that Craster doesn't hand his daughters to the Others is a strong sign that there might be no female Others and if the Others sent the corpse queen to the Night's King to corrupt him she might not have been a woman but a disguised male Other.

I don't find that very likely but it is a possibility. I'm more inclined to believe that she was a female wight - one imbued with intelligence like Coldhands is.

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I can vibe with the idea she is some kind of Ice Wight woman, although I'm unsure in what sense, is Mel some kind of fire Wight? Who knows. But there is no denying whatsoever that there are similarities between Mel and this woman wherein Mel is a Sorceress who is an embodiment of fire while this other Sorceress is described as what sounds like an embodiment of Ice. 

There is no evidence that Melisandre is a 'fire wight'. We have no reason to believe she was resurrected by the same fire spell that resurrected Beric and Catelyn. Mel might have been filled with fire magic while she was still alive. Moqorro and Benerro are very powerful sorcerers as well, it seems, yet nothing suggests they are resurrected dead people.

And while we have a lot of differentiations on the side of the fire worshipers - red priests with or without an inner fire, red priests resurrecting people, etc. - there is no reason to believe that anybody besides the Others actually worships ice or works with ice magic.

I do assume the Children both mastered ice and fire magic in their early days but the Others clearly perfected the whole ice magic thing later on. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Had a chuckle at this. It made me think of the Jaqen "theory".

You should try my The Dusky Woman Is Missandei's Mum! theory. 

[Macgregor of the North]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have to get things in order here. I'm not necessarily rejecting the idea that the woman might have been a sorceress but if she is still around during the series - meaning she must have lived/existed for thousands of years - then I find the idea that she is just a human sorceress (like, say, a daughter of a Barrow King) not very convincing.

Another thing is the question whether there are ice sorceresses as sort of oppositions to the red priests. I don't find that idea very convincing since as of yet we have no reason to believe that cults, magical traditions, or religions exist that worship the cold and the ice nor do we see anybody aside from the Others practice ice magic.

Thing is, i have not pushed the idea that she was a "normal" human woman or that she is still around(although she may be, who knows?). I do think there was obviously some sort of magical transformation with this woman that made her different. Mel is obviously different to the other women in the series and its due to some kind of magical change she went through in her life it seems, and i am coming from the same angle with this pale sorceress, who it seems to me was quite woman like but obviously different, like icy cold to touch etc. but not an Other (its never stated she was an Other anywhere) or some black handed Wight.

She may have been some woman with some kind of gift, and the Others, or the power behind the Others exploited that for their own gain. Perhaps she was exposed to some kind of power in the Lands of Always winter that transformed her to what she became, or possibly she is a Wight of some sort but it seems she had the ability to reproduce, or so the text seems to insinuate. 

Even though there is lack of evidence of any kind cult or religious group that follow the Others there is no doubt that if this woman existed she followed the Others (or their higher power) and what she did was with for their(or that powers) gain. My thread was to try and establish what agenda GRRM gave her (if he did have any in mind for her) and try to figure out what she really was and going by her descriptions i dont think we can deny that Melisandre springs to mind when you read about her, like she is some kind of counter character to Mel, the Ice to her Fire.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But describing somebody as being 'as pale as a corpse' isn't really a compliment. Corpses are ugly not beautiful. And comparing a beautiful woman's skin color to that of a corpse pretty much suggests she isn't really beautiful or at least very dangerous. The same goes for the eyes of the woman (reminiscent of the Others and wights) as well as about the fact that her skin is also supposed to be very cold (which suggests she might be an Other or a wight - essentially a living corpse - too).

Not necessarily a compliment but that doesnt change the fact that all it means is that her skin was very pale. The story has some kind of vague romantic aspect to it, "he chased her and loved her" and all that, it certainly does not seem like he was chasing some Other or black handed Wight to love her. Infact, to me it seems this womans beauty may have even been quite inviting, even though she was as pale as a corpse, but thats just the way i read it.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It sounds to me as if George was trying very hard to associate and connect that woman with the Others and their servants. The fact that the story make the Night's King see from atop the Wall makes it actually very likely she came from north, not south, making it rather unlikely she was some Barrow King's daughter. But then, we don't know in what direction he was looking when he allegedly saw. But if he was true to his vows at this point he should have been looking north not south.

Thats exactly what i have been getting at. That this woman was indeed connected to the Others and was a servant of them. My OP also states i think she was from North of the Wall and not some barrow kings real human daughter.

 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think so. But that would only be the option if we were to agree that she could not possibly have been a wight. The fact that Craster doesn't hand his daughters to the Others is a strong sign that there might be no female Others and if the Others sent the corpse queen to the Night's King to corrupt him she might not have been a woman but a disguised male Other.

I don't find that very likely but it is a possibility. I'm more inclined to believe that she was a female wight - one imbued with intelligence like Coldhands is.

I appreciate you keep the possibility open that she was a male Other but like you i find that very unlikely, infact, extremely unlikely. I never got the idea from the text that she was a Wight like Coldhands at all, in appearance at least, as stated earlier i believe the text paints quite an inviting picture of her regardless of her skin being as pale as a corpse, with nothing to hint at all that she had hands or eyes like Coldhands, who incidentally has Black eyes. She could be some form of Ice magic Wight but with the power to appear womanly and beautiful in a pale icy kind of way but if im honest she seems quite different to Coldhands. We cant really set aside the fact that Coldhands eyes are Black.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no evidence that Melisandre is a 'fire wight'

Not my theory, i was only inserting the idea to try and compare the blue and red woman together in regards to your idea of her being a sort of wight. I keep the Wight option open, but its only if Mel is some sort of fire Wight as i think this woman was Mels contrasting image. 

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no reason to believe she was resurrected by the same fire spell that resurrected Beric and Catelyn. Mel might have been filled with fire magic while she was still alive.

Now were talking! My idea was that this blue woman was filled with Ice magic while she was alive, much like you just mentioned with Melisandre. By your own words, you seem to see where im coming from but keep the male Other, Other, and Coldhands type Wight argument going, even though she has never been described as a male, or female Other once ever, and that her eyes are blue while coldhands are black, along with his hands, and we have no indication this pale sorceresses hands were black because her blood had moved down to her extremities. The only corpse like comparison we have is that her skin was as pale as a corpse, which simply means she had really pale skin.

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

there is no reason to believe that anybody besides the Others actually worships ice or works with ice magic.

but, we have this sorceress who most certainly was an Icy sorceress, with skin as cold as ice, who most certainly worked in league with and with the intentions of the Others and their higher icy power at heart, a worshipper of Ice if you will maybe?

Also, Craster calls them his gods. If thats not a form of worship what is?

[Macgregor of the North]

@Lord Varys

Some more reference to alleged Ice God worship:

"The countless tribes and clans of the free folk remain worshippers of the old gods of the First Men and children of the forest, the gods of the weirwood trees (some accounts say that there are those who worship different gods: dark gods beneath the ground in the Frostfangs, gods of snow and ice on the Frozen Shore, or crab gods at Storrold's Point, but such has never been reliably confirmed)."

[Ice Queen]

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I do kind of see where people are coming from with the Val comparison but if she is in some way connected to this pale sorceress bride of the Nights King then would this mean that she will eventually go down a terrible path that sees her in league with the Others?

At least in the Mel comparisons we see Mel being totally pro fire and R'hllor etc whereas the Blue woman as I call her is totally pro Others and their higher power etc. In tune with The Ice and Fire vibe of the whole series.

So do you think Val has this kind of direction in her storyline? 

Ice and fire are mirror images of each other, so if there are fire priestesses there are ice priestesses as well. I'm in the minority of those who think the Others aren't evil, so in my view Val would not be going down a terrible path. At least, it would be no worse than the path Mel is on. We already have one fire representative, so there has to be someone representing ice with parallel powers as Mel, and Val is IMO the most likely contender, unless we meet someone from Skagos in the next book. 

Also in my minority view, one of the Starks (most likely Jon) will go over to the Others. There's so much that the Starks have forgotten in their history. The thought of Mel bringing him back makes me sick. He's a Stark and of the North. We've been told that over and over again. The Starks named their sword Ice for a reason. If Dany is fire and can ride a dragon, then someone has to be with the Others. They won't be hanging out there as outliers. They will have someone directing them, and that someone IMO is Jon. I know that Jon is ice AND fire, but the only other option is Bran. 

Ice and fire, and by extension the dragons and the Others, are forces of nature: ice and fire made flesh. Their priestesses use these forces to do what they do. The same goes for the Damphair using water. I guess we could push the analogy and mention the Children and their power over the earth. 

What did Maester Aemon say? Ice preserves, but fire consumes. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Thing is, i have not pushed the idea that she was a "normal" human woman or that she is still around(although she may be, who knows?). I do think there was obviously some sort of magical transformation with this woman that made her different. Mel is obviously different to the other women in the series and its due to some kind of magical change she went through in her life it seems, and i am coming from the same angle with this pale sorceress, who it seems to me was quite woman like but obviously different, like icy cold to touch etc. but not an Other (its never stated she was an Other anywhere) or some black handed Wight.

Yeah, but the idea came up and I (also) commented on that.

As long as we have no reason to believe that there are ice sorceresses comparable to Melisandre and other red priests I see little reason to assume that this is the case. Especially not if there is a good chance that the corpse queen might be much closer connected to the Others.

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

She may have been some woman with some kind of gift, and the Others, or the power behind the Others exploited that for their own gain. Perhaps she was exposed to some kind of power in the Lands of Always winter that transformed her to what she became, or possibly she is a Wight of some sort but it seems she had the ability to reproduce, or so the text seems to insinuate. 

The text insinuates the Night's King could fuck his corpse queen. That's not the same as procreation. Is Mel still capable of giving birth to a normal living child instead of a shadow? I'd not bet on that.

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Not necessarily a compliment but that doesnt change the fact that all it means is that her skin was very pale. The story has some kind of vague romantic aspect to it, "he chased her and loved her" and all that, it certainly does not seem like he was chasing some Other or black handed Wight to love her. Infact, to me it seems this womans beauty may have even been quite inviting, even though she was as pale as a corpse, but thats just the way i read it.

Well, the idea is that the woman cast a spell over the Night's King. He was completely lost only after he had given his seed and soul to her but one assumes that he must have been under some spell already when he thought it was to entertain an affair with a woman with skin as cold as ice. That doesn't make it unlikely at all that she acted as some kind of siren when she first presented herself to him - unless we assume that's just a story, of course.

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I appreciate you keep the possibility open that she was a male Other but like you i find that very unlikely, infact, extremely unlikely. I never got the idea from the text that she was a Wight like Coldhands at all, in appearance at least, as stated earlier i believe the text paints quite an inviting picture of her regardless of her skin being as pale as a corpse, with nothing to hint at all that she had hands or eyes like Coldhands, who incidentally has Black eyes. She could be some form of Ice magic Wight but with the power to appear womanly and beautiful in a pale icy kind of way but if im honest she seems quite different to Coldhands. We cant really set aside the fact that Coldhands eyes are Black.

But we both most likely assume that Coldhands was originally a wight controlled by the Others. Our knowledge doesn't suggest that ice wight spell is used by any other people but the Others.

The fact that the wights we have met so far - aside from Coldhands - don't talk doesn't mean there can't be intelligent wights, especially if the Others actually had a plan involving the corpse queen and the Night's King. They could have created her as a weapon against the NW just as, say, the Olympian gods created Pandora to corrupt early mankind.

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Now were talking! My idea was that this blue woman was filled with Ice magic while she was alive, much like you just mentioned with Melisandre. By your own words, you seem to see where im coming from but keep the male Other, Other, and Coldhands type Wight argument going, even though she has never been described as a male, or female Other once ever, and that her eyes are blue while coldhands are black, along with his hands, and we have no indication this pale sorceresses hands were black because her blood had moved down to her extremities. The only corpse like comparison we have is that her skin was as pale as a corpse, which simply means she had really pale skin.

Okay, I can go with the woman imbued with ice magic variation as well, if we go with her being an instrument of the Others. The main problem of that idea is just that the Others were already gone/defeated in the days of the Night's King (that is my main argument why I think she might just have been 'a woman' who was later defamed to be some evil creature in the songs and stories about the Night's King - although both might have sacrificed to and worshiped the absent Others). Why didn't they not also attack the Wall at this point?

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Lord Varys

Some more reference to alleged Ice God worship:

"The countless tribes and clans of the free folk remain worshippers of the old gods of the First Men and children of the forest, the gods of the weirwood trees (some accounts say that there are those who worship different gods: dark gods beneath the ground in the Frostfangs, gods of snow and ice on the Frozen Shore, or crab gods at Storrold's Point, but such has never been reliably confirmed)."

Certainly, the Others are worshiped as gods by some people north of the Wall. We just don't know whether those people also practice ice magic the same way the red priests practice fire magic. Craster certainly doesn't.

I'm very much open to the possibility that a faction of the First Men stood with the Others and had taken them as their gods during the Long Night (failing to understand that they wouldn't be willing to spare them in the end) but we don't have any evidence for that as of yet.

[The Commentator]

If the Others were created from Stark stock it means that they need a compatible genetic material to create more of them.  This lends credence to the "Craster is a Stark" theory that was proposed earlier.  If the Others can take any baby and make it one of theirs they would number in the millions.  It is likely that only certain genes are compatible.  Why so picky?  Because they have to be.  If the Others are actually ancient Starks, they will need compatible material to turn.  They also need the Stark ability to skinchange to control their wights. 

If the Others were created as opposed to evolved, perhaps one of the creators violated their procedures.  All of the Others were supposed to be male because they were made for war.  Only males to prevent them from multiplying and becoming their own species.  But one of the creators violated this for unknown reasons.  Remember, this is a story of the heart in conflict with rules and duties.  So somebody made one female Other. 

That female Other wanted to mate with a compatible human.  Perhaps she wanted to create a generation of Others who could eventually regain their humanity.  This one-off, this special lady, planned to seduce the NK and create the future of her species.  However, she fell in love.  They fell in love.  They took the Night Fort as their castle and sacrificed to the Others.  Sound familiar?  It should, because this is what Craster practiced.  Human sacrifice was also practiced by the ancient Starks.  We know this from Bran's vision. 

I think the wall is in for a big surprise.  Jon sent Mance and Dalla's baby with Samwell to protect him from Mel.  But maybe he's not the one with "magic" blood.  Maybe Craster's son, the one left at the wall, has the magic ingredient. 

 

[Darkstream]

Wait one second, I'm a bit confused @Lord Varys. A few days ago you were arguing that all factions of First Men/Wildlings, CotF, and Giants would have came together and united to face the threat of the Others. You stated that:

Quote

The idea that there was any enmity between the First Men living north and south of the Wall shortly after the Long Night was over makes no sense to me. Mankind itself was threatened by extinction and presumably everybody worked together to defeat the foe. Why the hell should the wildlings and the First Men be at odds? How the hell could the Wall be built and the NW flourish if the wildlings were opposed to the whole thing?

But now, I see that you have put forth:

Quote

I'm very much open to the possibility that a faction of the First Men stood with the Others and had taken them as their gods during the Long Night 

Mayhaps you would like to clarify which of these conflicting stances you actually support?

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

Ice and fire are mirror images of each other, so if there are fire priestesses there are ice priestesses as well. I'm in the minority of those who think the Others aren't evil, so in my view Val would not be going down a terrible path. At least, it would be no worse than the path Mel is on. We already have one fire representative, so there has to be someone representing ice with parallel powers as Mel, and Val is IMO the most likely contender, unless we meet someone from Skagos in the next book. 

Also in my minority view, one of the Starks (most likely Jon) will go over to the Others. There's so much that the Starks have forgotten in their history. The thought of Mel bringing him back makes me sick. He's a Stark and of the North. We've been told that over and over again. The Starks named their sword Ice for a reason. If Dany is fire and can ride a dragon, then someone has to be with the Others. They won't be hanging out there as outliers. They will have someone directing them, and that someone IMO is Jon. I know that Jon is ice AND fire, but the only other option is Bran. 

Ice and fire, and by extension the dragons and the Others, are forces of nature: ice and fire made flesh. Their priestesses use these forces to do what they do. The same goes for the Damphair using water. I guess we could push the analogy and mention the Children and their power over the earth. 

What did Maester Aemon say? Ice preserves, but fire consumes. 

Yes they are mirror images and if an Ice Sorceress could be the contrasting image of Mel, who we have seen from her own POV's is actually trying to do what she thinks is true and good for the world. She doesn't want to see it covered in dark and cold. Then her opposite would be doing the opposite of her, which means an Icy dark world with no light in it really doesn't it?. 

Is this what Val is destined for? 

Thing is with not thinking the Others are evil, I think people have put far to much stock in GRRMS comments like he doesn't want to write about a Dark lord like Tolkiens Sauron where Aragorn is the pure embodiment of everything good who opposes him sort of thing. 

We know he prefers grey characters and all that. But seriously, the Others are quite evil you know. Check the Waymar Prologue and the way they behave, that's quite evil, and they have been trying to kill every member of the Nights Watch the whole book. 

Now even if that is due to some half decent purpose like needing to migrate south, or whatever, that's still evil behaviour. They will kill humans in their path plain and simple, there's no denying that's quite evil. I simply don't know what you mean by "the Others are not evil". They may have their own intentions that mean something to them that justify all the killing and raising the dead but they are pretty nasty beings. 

The thing I think GRRM has tried to push is that while one group or race, or whatever can view another as evil, that group or person or whatever may think what they are doing is heroic and noble etc, like Mirri Maz Duur, she felt she had to act the way she did. She felt what she was doing was right. But many view her as evil. 

GRRM has tried to make characters as grey as possible. Well his humans anyway.  But when it comes to the Others I'm quite sure that, even though they think what they are doing is right, they are quite an evil bunch.