Ashara Dayne as Jon Snow's mother

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 2/12/2017 at 2:18 AM, Luddagain said:

<snip

Secondly I think that Ashara was made pregnant by someone else and she turned to Ned (or another Stark - Benjen or Brandon or Rickard) for HELP. If her child lived I think he is or was Aegon, the son of Aerys and Ashara. Baby Aegon is the only child to be the right age - ie about 12-15 months old  when the war ended. There is of course one other possible "child" Allyria Dayne, who would be of the right marriageable age ie about 15 turning 16 when the book starts - perfect age for engagement to Beric Dondarrion.. The only other possible fathers are Rhaegar and Robert and Brandon.

<snip

All the rest aside, thank you! I keep saying this and it seems like no one else gets it.

By the way, Ashara didn't have to get pregnant at Harrenhal. Being "dishonored" could entail any number of things, but sex itself is not required for it.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

45 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Same goes for R+L=J but it is a gospel.

Not really, no.

The only possible hint for Ashara being Dany's mother is that Barristan thinks of Ashara's eyes when he sees Dany's eyes...cause they both have purple eyes.

There are a ton of hints for R+L=J not the least of which is that Lyanna, after being abducted by or running away with Rhaegar, was found dying in a "bed of blood" which is both a literary and a historical term for a woman who has just given birth. Ned finds his sister having just given birth. She dies. He goes home with a baby he claims or allows people to think is his. 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

50 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Same goes for R+L=J but it is a gospel.

Yes, Ashara having a stillborn kid has far more text going for it than R+L=J and an order of magnitude more than her being Dany's mom 

[maudisdottir]

26 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

All the rest aside, thank you! I keep saying this and it seems like no one else gets it.

It isn't because we don't "get" it, it's just that (to me at least) that's not what the text is implying.  In the context of what Barristan is saying about Ashara, there's nothing to indicate she turned to Stark for help. He wishes he had won the tourney and crowned Ashara - why? Why would that stop her from seeking help from a Stark?

To me it's clear that he was implying that it might lead to romance, not to becoming a teenage girl's confidant. And he also says Ashara may have grieved for the man who dishonoured her at HH, which makes it sound like she was in love with the mystery dishonourer.

[Luddagain]

Lady Blizzardborn

The term dishonoured when referring to a maiden almost always means losing her virginity.  I think we can reasonably assume that Ashara did have sex sometime around Harrenhall.  There also appears to be no secret in the fact that she was pregnant - reportedly having a stillborn daughter.

The only variation on this is the idea that She and Elia may have swapped babies. After all better to be born the heir to the Iron Throne than the bastard of Starfall.

 

Obviously Barristan believes (that does not mean it is true) that the father of her child was someone recently killed. This could mean Rhaegar, Aerys or one of the Kingsguard - or of course Ned whom she learns has married Catelyn.

[Luddagain]

While i accept it a a way out there theory, what if Lyanna had a child by someone other than Rhaegar and the child is NOT Jon.  The only possible candidates would be Allyria Dayne, (presumably with Arthur Dayne as Daddy or Gendry with Robert as Daddy). The child would need to be about 3-6 months younger than Robb. They are the only two children of the right age, although a case could be made for fake Aegon and even at a very long stretch, Dany or Margaery Tyrell or Sam..

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Not really, no.

The only possible hint for Ashara being Dany's mother is that Barristan thinks of Ashara's eyes when he sees Dany's eyes...cause they both have purple eyes.

There are a ton of hints for R+L=J not the least of which is that Lyanna, after being abducted by or running away with Rhaegar, was found dying in a "bed of blood" which is both a literary and a historical term for a woman who has just given birth. Ned finds his sister having just given birth. She dies. He goes home with a baby he claims or allows people to think is his. 

 

Jon is literally the song of ice and fire. 

[Nocturne]

10 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Ashara is not so trivial. She is not just a red herring for Jon's mum. The Daynes are focused too much for them to not have any impact.

There is some focus on them, but not on her specifically. Think about it, GRRM goes down the route that she is his mom, what does that accomplish? At best Jon gets a ceremony where he receives "Dawn"..that's way to king Arthur for this series, it won't happen.

[Orphalesion]

51 minutes ago, Nocturne said:

There is some focus on them, but not on her specifically. Think about it, GRRM goes down the route that she is his mom, what does that accomplish? At best Jon gets a ceremony where he receives "Dawn"..that's way to king Arthur for this series, it won't happen.

I don't even think that there is THAT much focus on the Daynes. There is some focus placed on many families and characters that never quite amount to much. I think a lot of detail is just there to make the world seem real.

I wonder if it was the Lord of the Rings in ASoIaF's place, with the last book still unpublished, if people would spin theories whether Glorfindel will factor into the story again, after all he seems very important for the short time we spend with him (even Gandalf speaks highly of him) only to then fade again. 

[Nocturne]

5 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

I don't even think that there is THAT much focus on the Daynes. There is some focus placed on many families and characters that never quite amount to much. I think a lot of detail is just there to make the world seem real.

I wonder if it was the Lord of the Rings in ASoIaF's place, with the last book still unpublished, if people would spin theories whether Glorfindel will factor into the story again, after all he seems very important for the short time we spend with him (even Gandalf speaks highly of him) only to then fade again. 

Exactly, GRRM has provided a lot of world depth...but its exactly that: depth. If you take a step back, and look at the books from a perspective point of view, you can see who matters who doesn't pretty clearly by now. I'm not saying that i guessed the main characters after i read the first book, but 5 books in..we can separate the extra's pretty easily at this point.

On a side note, at some point i really have to read the Lord of the Rings books, i know they have a lot of world depth as well.

 

[Livesundersink]

4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

(presumably with Arthur Dayne as Daddy or Gendry with Robert as Daddy)

Well i can surely say with all certainty that Lyanna is not Gendry's mother. She was noted a few times in Ned's thoughts as being opposed to her being betrothed to Robert, saying she knew he would never keep to her bed and be a faithful husband. Ned thinks on this after heading back from meeting one of Robert's bastards in a brothel in King's Landing, just before he is attacked by Jaime, after having met a number of Robert's other bastards Ned cannot say that Lyanna was wrong.

[Livesundersink]

Also if Robert had slept with Lyanna at some point it's likely that he would have boasted about it at some point with all likelihood of Ned hearing about this sooner or later, and if he had raped her we would know about it as we are told that she was not the type of person to suffer in silence.

[Amris]

On 11.2.2017 at 9:52 PM, Quellon said:

This is an interesting theory and shouldn't be discarded too easily imo. Fact 1: we know Ashara was in love with Ned. Fact 2: we know they danced together, but it might have not ended there. Fact 3: Jon is exceptionally skilled at arms and if Arthur Dayne is his uncle, then there is a perfect explanation for that. Rhaegar was skilled, but still not as skilled as Arthur, in swordfighting. There are also rumours that Eddard was infatuated with Ashara. Also, Ashara's personality seems to match Jon's. By all accounts she was a delicate person with a melancholy to her, just like Jon. Barristan said Ashara had a stillborn daughter, but who's to say that she didn't also deliver a son? Then it would make perfect sense why Eddard brought Jon with him North, because he had no other home. It happened right after Robert's Rebellion ended, so there would have been time for Ned to do this before he went back home.

Quellon: While I like the thread and don't have any basic problem with contemplating whether Ashara might be Jon's mother I don't see how to really to make this work.

Aside from the question of 'why keep Jon's mother a secret' which has been rightly asked there is the timeline problem. The times just don't add up.

Because if Jon was born when everyone thinks he was born (in 283 AC near the end of the war) then we would have to bring Ned and Ashara together for the necessary biological interaction 9 months earlier. And I don't see how.

We know that the war lasted 'close to a year'. So for Jon to have been born near its end his parents would have had to be together after the war started.

Where was Ned when the war started?

That is clearly established. We know that Ned was in the Vale of Arryn when the Rebellion broke out. He was ward of Jon Arryn and King Aerys II send a message to Jon Arryn in the Vale to demand Ned's head. We also know that Jon Arryn instead rose in rebellion while Ned went from the Vale via the three sisters and a fishing boat (the story about the fishing woman) to Winterfell to call his banners.
 

Where was Ashara when the war started?

That admittedly is less clear. But by default we would expect her in Starfall since she is a Dayne. (And that's exactly where she seems to have been at the end of the war, when Ned brought Dawn to Starfall and Ashara reportedly jumped off the Palestone Sword tower.) As far as I know there is no evidence for Ashara having been anywhere else at the beginning of the war.

So there are only 2 ways to make the Ned+Ashara=Jon idea work: either Jon was not born when we think he was born - or Ashara was not at Starfall at the beginning of the war.

But we don't have evidence for either of these solutions:

If Jon was born at a different time then I don't know how to reconcile that with Catelyn getting to Winterfell and finding Ned and baby-Jon. I mean: Catelyn would have noticed if Jon was a toddler and not a newborn! Had he been sired at the tourney of Harrenhal for instance then he would have to be over a year older than assumed. (born in the first months of 282 since the tourney was 281 and not born in 283). That is too much age difference to go unnoticed in a supposedly newborn - they grow fast. (And of course he can't have been younger either because then Ned would have had to have waited in Starfall for close to nine months for Jon's birth. There is no report of that.)

EDIT: Also there is the infamous SSM that Jon is closer to 8-9 months older than Dany. Dany's birth date is clearly established as 8 1/2 months or so after the sack of KL so we know Jon's birth around the time Ned gets south to Dorne is pretty confirmed. Unless we want to postulate that Dany's birth date is wrong also. But the more of these facts we try to explain away the less likely the theory becomes.

The other idea - for Ashara to not have been in Starfall but near Ned at the start of the war - does not work well either: 

Why would Ashara be in the Vale? That makes not sense.

There is one slight possibilitiy: Both Ned and Ashara could have been in the Riverlands for the wedding feast of Brandon and Catelyn and met there. But we have no text evidence that that was the case. On top of that we would have to assume Aerys did not know this when he sent his message to Jon Arryn demanding Ned's head. And what nearly rules it out completely is that Ned is confirmed to have travelled to the North from the Vale via the fisherboat and the Three Sisters. Had he been in the Riverlands he would have travelled north along the King's Road.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Possible. But she is too insignificant to have an impact. 

Well I think that Ashara is insignificant to the final outcome.

[Luddagain]

Dorian

I do NOT believe Jon is Ice and fire. He may be the prince that is promised, BUT he is destined to FIGHT both ice and fire. Both are enemies to life.

 

I am sure that when GRRM started he was telling the tale of Ragnarök, set in a War of Roses type world.  The destruction of Asgard came via giants, Volcanoes (fire), burning sun (fire), ice, tidal waves and earthquakes,  hellhounds, Slepnir (8 legged horse or SPIDER), Fenrir the evil wolf. 

 

He may have

[Jon's Queen Consort]

10 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

I do NOT believe Jon is Ice and fire. He may be the prince that is promised, BUT he is destined to FIGHT both ice and fire. Both are enemies to life.

I agree with you and that is destined to fight both ice and fire and that both of them are enemies. However I believe that Jon is the song of Ice and Fire.

[TheStarkNakedinWinterfell]

On 2/13/2017 at 5:49 AM, Luddagain said:

It is actually probable that the two ladies would have conceived within 48 hrs of one another - biological fact that women living in close proximity - sharing beds and rooms etc, actually ovulate at the SAME time.

 

I am incredibly perturbed by this 'biological fact' which has only ever been alleged and never proven. The study that alleged menstrual synchronization was shown to have methodological inconsistencies. Pls. Stahp.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

13 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

It isn't because we don't "get" it, it's just that (to me at least) that's not what the text is implying.  In the context of what Barristan is saying about Ashara, there's nothing to indicate she turned to Stark for help. He wishes he had won the tourney and crowned Ashara - why? Why would that stop her from seeking help from a Stark?

To me it's clear that he was implying that it might lead to romance, not to becoming a teenage girl's confidant. And he also says Ashara may have grieved for the man who dishonoured her at HH, which makes it sound like she was in love with the mystery dishonourer.

This is the exact quote: " But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well." 

Barristan thinks she might have grieved for the man who dishonored her. Might and think are the key words. He doesn't know. This is him trying to reason out what might have happened many years after the fact. It's not necessarily an accurate depiction of what occurred. Barristan wasn't there. All he knows is what he has heard or imagined.

Barristan would not violate his KG vows by getting involved with Ashara. The reason why his crowning her QoLaB would potentially result in her turning to him for help is because that would make her aware that he holds her in high regard. There was no chance of a relationship in his mind, but she might have thought she could seek him out for assistance. If he thinks she would have come to him instead of "Stark" he has to be thinking she would come to him for help because she would not be coming to him for a roll in the hay.

This does not imply that the person she "looked to" was the same as the man who dishonored her. Even if she was in love with said dishonorer that doesn't mean that he was in love with her. She might have been hoping someone powerful could convince the guy to marry her, or convince her family to consent to the match.

 

12 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Lady Blizzardborn

The term dishonoured when referring to a maiden almost always means losing her virginity.

<snip

That's what the modern mind thinks of, but in the medieval world it did not take going all the way to ruin a girl's reputation. Besides which almost always is not always. Until GRRM clarifies things, we're all just guessing.

4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Well I think that Ashara is insignificant to the final outcome.

That's because you think she's dead.

[DarkSister1001]

14 hours ago, Luddagain said:

The term dishonoured when referring to a maiden almost always means losing her virginity

Almost always is not always.  Textual examples of dishonoring that are not sexual:

Quote

"Would that I might forget him," Ned said bluntly. The Mormonts of Bear Island were an old house, proud and honorable, but their lands were cold and distant and poor. Ser Jorah had tried to swell the family coffers by selling some poachers to a Tyroshi slaver. As the Mormonts were bannermen to the Starks, his crime had dishonored the north. Ned had made the long journey west to Bear Island, only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king's justice. Five years had passed since then.

AGoT, Eddard II

 

Quote

"The whore is pregnant!" The king's fist slammed down on the council table loud as a thunderclap. "I warned you this would happen, Ned. Back in the barrowlands, I warned you, but you did not care to hear it. Well, you'll hear it now. I want them dead, mother and child both, and that fool Viserys as well. Is that plain enough for you? I want them dead."

The other councillors were all doing their best to pretend that they were somewhere else. No doubt they were wiser than he was. Eddard Stark had seldom felt quite so alone. "You will dishonor yourself forever if you do this."

AGoT, Eddard VIII

Quote

"Do you take me for Aerys?" Robert interrupted.

"I took you for a king. Jaime and Tyrion are your own brothers, by all the laws of marriage and the bonds we share. The Starks have driven off the one and seized the other. This man dishonors you with every breath he takes, and yet you stand there meekly, asking if his leg pains him and would he like some wine."

Robert's face was dark with anger. "How many times must I tell you to hold your tongue, woman?"

AGoT, Eddard X

 

Quote

"Strike! Now, while the castle sleeps." Renly looked back at Ser Boros again and dropped his voice to an urgent whisper. "We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward."

Ned regarded him coldly. "Robert is not dead yet. The gods may spare him. If not, I shall convene the council to hear his final words and consider the matter of the succession, but I will not dishonor his last hours on earth by shedding blood in his halls and dragging frightened children from their beds."

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

AGoT, Eddard, XIII

 

Quote

Re Gilly:

"I thought . . . maybe by then I could think of a way . . ."

"I have no time for this, I have horses to groom and saddle." Jon walked away as confused as he was angry. Sam's heart was as big as the rest of him, but for all his reading he could be as thick as Grenn at times. It was impossible, and dishonorable besides. So why do I feel so ashamed?

ACoK, Jon III

 

Quote

"Go on, Jon. Say what you would say."

"My father once told me that some men are not worth having," Jon finished. "A bannerman who is brutal or unjust dishonors his liege lord as well as himself."

"Craster is his own man. He has sworn us no vows. Nor is he subject to our laws. Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night's Watch has other wars to fight."

ACoK, Jon III

 

Quote

"Florent would have him fail more visibly. In his son's sight, with a noose about his neck."

It was dangerous to oppose the queen's men, but Davos had vowed always to tell his king the truth. "I think that would be ill done, my liege. Ser Cortnay will watch his father die before he would ever betray his trust. It would gain us nothing, and bring dishonor to our cause."

"What dishonor?" Stannis bristled. "Would you have me spare the lives of traitors?"

ACoK, Davos II

 

Quote

"What's wrong?" Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

"My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."

A stupid princess, she thought, that's nothing to cry over. "My brothers might be dead," she confided.

ACoK, Arya X

 

Quote

"I shall, Aunt . . . my lady."

Lady Lysa seemed pleased by that. "I knew that boy Joffrey. He used to call my Robert cruel names, and once he slapped him with a wooden sword. A man will tell you poison is dishonorable, but a woman's honor is different. The Mother shaped us to protect our children, and our only dishonor is in failure. You'll know that, when you have a child."

"A child?" said Sansa, uncertainly.

ASoS, Sans VI

 

Quote

"Your Grace," the Tyroshi murmured, bowing low, "I see you are as lovely as the tales. Even beyond the narrow sea we have heard of your great beauty, and the grief that tears your gentle heart. No man can restore your brave young son to you, but it is my hope I can at least offer you some balm for your pain." He laid his hand upon his chest. "I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar."

The old Valyrian word sent a chill through her, though it also gave her a tingle of hope. "The Imp is no longer my brother, if he ever was," she declared. "Nor will I say his name. It was a proud name once, before he dishonored it."

"In Tyrosh we name him Redhands, for the blood running from his fingers. A king's blood, and a father's. Some say he slew his mother too, ripping his way from her womb with savage claws."

ASoS, Cersei VIII

 

Quote

"Even Dustins out of Barrowton." Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. "The north remembers, Frey."

Aenys Frey's mouth quivered with outrage. "Stark dishonored us. That is what you northmen had best remember."

Roose Bolton rubbed at his chapped lips. "This squabbling will not serve." He flicked his fingers at Theon. "You are free to go. Take care where you wander. Else it might be you we find upon the morrow, smiling a red smile."

ADwD, A Ghost In Winterfell

 

Quote

"Better to attack at first light," Skahaz said. "Burst from the gates and swarm across the siege lines, smash the Yunkai'i as they come stumbling from their beds."

"No." The two of them had argued this before. "There is a peace, signed and sealed by Her Grace the queen. We will not be the first to break it. Once we have taken Hizdahr, we will form a council to rule in his place and demand that the Yunkai'i return our hostages and withdraw their armies. Should they refuse, then and only then will we inform them that the peace is broken, and go forth to give them battle. Your way is dishonorable."

"Your way is stupid," the Shavepate said. "The hour is ripe. Our freedmen are ready. Hungry."

ADwD, The Kingbreaker

 

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This is the exact quote: " But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well." 

Barristan thinks she might have grieved for the man who dishonored her. Might and think are the key words. He doesn't know. This is him trying to reason out what might have happened many years after the fact. It's not necessarily an accurate depiction of what occurred. Barristan wasn't there. All he knows is what he has heard or imagined.

Barristan would not violate his KG vows by getting involved with Ashara. The reason why his crowning her QoLaB would potentially result in her turning to him for help is because that would make her aware that he holds her in high regard. There was no chance of a relationship in his mind, but she might have thought she could seek him out for assistance. If he thinks she would have come to him instead of "Stark" he has to be thinking she would come to him for help because she would not be coming to him for a roll in the hay.

There's much more to that entire passage, and Barristan actually says that if he had told her he loved her it might have stopped all the bad shit from going down afterwards.  Why would he say that if he was only looking to be her confidant?

Quote

If I had been a better knight... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty...

Then goes on to say Rhaegar chose Lyanna instead of his own wife, compares Elia to Ashara, and laments the fact that he never revealed his true feelings to her, which might have avoided a lot of pain (and war) down the track.

Quote

She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her.  How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

IMO these thoughts don't jibe with someone who is regretting a lost opportunity to be a girl's confidant.

Ashara to Barristan:  "I'm having [men/baby/undisclosed other] problems."

Barristan to Ashara:  "This is the perfect opportunity to tell you I'm in love with you."

Ashara to Barristan:  "That solves everything! Let's go sit over here and talk about how you can help me with my [men/baby/undisclosed other] problems.  Now I won't have to go running to the Starks, which was my only other option for some unknown reason."