Is it confirmed Brandon never had sons

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I just glanced a bit further into Jon's first POV, and found this between Benjen and Jon.

 

So Jon might not have sat at the high table, but he was normally sat with his brothers, who at least would be seated with Ned, or very near them. On this night, Jon seems to blame Catelyn for his demotion to the back of the great hall.

It appears than that it wasn't Ned's decision to hide Jon from Robert but instead it was Cat's decision to avoid giving Jon the appearance of any type of legitimacy.  So it's still fairly inconsistent with the idea of Ned being a child of Rhaegar who needs to be protected from the crown.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It appears than that it wasn't Ned's decision to hide Jon from Robert but instead it was Cat's decision to avoid giving Jon the appearance of any type of legitimacy.  So it's still fairly inconsistent with the idea of Ned being a child of Rhaegar who needs to be protected from the crown.

It appears that at least in Jon's perception, Catelyn was the reason behind it. I agree that Jon does not need protection from Robert. Good call!

Maybe this all has to do with Cat. It is possibly just you said, and that she does not wish to give Jon any appearance of legitimacy, which could some day be used against her own children's claim to Winterfell.

I have wondered though, if Jon is Lyanna's son, if maybe Robert would/could have seen something in Jon that reminded him of Lyanna. It could be a reason to keep Jon from Robert, but it's doubtful.I don't think Robert was very perceptive. I mean, Arya is said to be very much like Lyanna, and we know that Robert was introduced to Arya as one of Ned's children at Winterfell, and Robert seen Arya when she was brought before him at Castle Darry. He did not seem to indicate that he recognized a part of Lyanna in Arya at all. I know Robert had been drinking that night, but he doesn't seem to have any reaction at all. Which makes a person wonder how well Robert really ever know Lyanna, or how much time ever ever actually spent with her? 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

16 hours ago, St Daga said:

I am a bit snarky at times, I must admit.I was being dramatic, probably overly so, to try to prove my point. Sorry if that seemed offensive. It was not my intention to be insulting.

<snip

Maybe Jon is just a big baby, but it seems to indicate she has has been less than kind to him in the past, to make him react this way. Robb even implies that he expected Cat to have been unkind to Jon, when Jon and Robb say their farewells in the falling snow, so Robb is aware or has seen this behavior from his mother directed toward Jon.

I agree. Jon's parentage is presented as being a very big deal. No reveal from the author yet, and we can't use the show as book canon, just like we can't use the book as show canon. They are separate, and while I don't think the two will change Jon's parentage, I do think the show was absolutely vague about the father, and while it seems Lyanna did have a baby, the lead from the baby to a grown up Jon Snow seems to indicate that child that Lyanna gave birth to  was Jon, the whole reveal was very odd.

<snip

And Cat fears Jon because she thinks he could take Winterfell from her own children. If he has any Stark blood, that worry remains the same for her.

Well, I actually question who Dany's father is, so maybe a no brainer to some, but not to others. Time will tell, and I am not going to argue that point. We are all entitled to our own interpretation.

There is a lot we don't know about Lyanna and Ashara, or the rebellion. GRRM is giving us a little bit at a time. I don't think his reveals are complete, and the story will continue to develop and change.

Well, Ned was traveling with the fisherman's daughter at the same time he might have been sorely grieving the murder of his father and brother, which could have caused him to turn to someone for comfort. We don't know that he did or didn't. Robb's injury came about as part of fighting the war, which lead to the situation with Jeyne. I am not saying that Ned traveled halfway across Westeros to have an affair during the war, I am saying that things can happen during war, just like with Robb, or with Robert probably fathering Bella while he recuperated in Stoney Sept. And what if Jon really turns out to be Ned's son by some woman chance met on campaign? Though I doubt that, because there is no reason not to reveal who Jon's mother is then.

This thread is about the possibility of Brandon having had any sons, and I feel like I have helped turn this into just another argument about RLJ, and so I apologize to the OP for being a part of derailing this thread.

I think we all scoff at times. It can be great fun. I wasn't offended but I was annoyed. There is no right to freedom from annoyance on the forums.

The author has implied rather clearly that there is no pattern of abuse from Cat to Jon.

Quote

 

July 14th, 1999

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

 

 

Well except for all the major hinting they'd been doing for two seasons about Rhaegar and Lyanna, and R+L carved into a beam at Castle Black back in I think season 2. Other than that, yes they left the father issue entirely open to debate.

There's really not much reason to worry about Jon making an inheritance claim because in Westeros even legitmized bastards go to the end of the line...after the girls even. Not saying Cat is always reasonable (she does some stupid things on impulse), but when she makes her case to Robb she doesn't claim Jon is going to be a problem but that any children or grandchildren of his could make trouble for Robb's descendants. So if she's been worried about Jon and the inheritance she at least knows that argument won't work on Robb (probably because on some level she knows it's a stupid argument).

But no one in Westeros does. She's clearly a Targaryen, and "known" to be Aerys and Rhaella's daughter, so she's safer in Essos. The same principle works for her as for Jon. If you look like a Stark, you're fine. If you look like a Targ, you better not be in the seven kingdoms.

Well of course not all of the reveals are complete, but the growing is pretty much done. He's on the downhill side of the series now and he won't be making any changes to what he's set up, as he has said repeatedly. 

No, you're not. But the usual Jon is Ned's son argument is that he hooked up with Ashara during the war, which is extremely unlikely unless one of them borrowed Littlefinger's jetpack of Varys' teleporter (free virtual cookie to all who get the reference).

I don't think you need to take personal responsibility, as you were not the one (I don't think) to introduce the Brandon as Jon's father idea. But it was very nice of you to apologize to the OP. On this board, it's a given that paternity issues are going to include Jon. He's the most prominent character whose paternity is in doubt. And there aren't a lot of young men around Westeros who have strong Stark-like tendencies that would point toward Brandon being their father. 

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The author has implied rather clearly that there is no pattern of abuse from Cat to Jon.

Certainly, this is GRRM's claim, but I interpret the text he wrote a bit differently. Not going to argue Georges words against his own text, but I am surprised that he writes characters the Cat and Sansa, who behave less than perfect toward their family members, and then he, who created them and wrote their own actions, acts a bit surprised when people find that behavior rather awful and hold it against certain characters. Whatever GRRM says, the fact that Cat never once said Jon's name in 14 years and often caused him to run and cry could certainly be seen as  a case for emotional abuse. Or Jon is just a big baby!

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Well except for all the major hinting they'd been doing for two seasons about Rhaegar and Lyanna, and R+L carved into a beam at Castle Black back in I think season 2. Other than that, yes they left the father issue entirely open to debate.

Sitting around in interviews with a R+L on your shirt seems a bit more like trolling than confirmation or hinting, but I agree that in the show, the hints of RLJ have been there since the first season. I think it could be a false path we are being led down, but I am prepared to be wrong. 

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Well of course not all of the reveals are complete, but the growing is pretty much done. He's on the downhill side of the series now and he won't be making any changes to what he's set up, as he has said repeatedly. 

It only took him a few sentences in aDwD to give us the idea that Ned was not only traveling around with an anonymous lady at the start of the rebellion, but that he was in a few places people might not have expected. What ever else GRRM might decide to reveal to us might change the story quite a bit in a paragraph or two.

Also, I know that he says two more books, and if that is the case, I expect them to be monstrously big. But the telling is longer than he ever anticipated, and I think he is going to have a hard time wrapping in up in the time and books he says. I am more inclined to think it might be more than two books, like nine total would not surprise me. Right now, I would be happy for the next one just to give us all something new to hash and rehash.

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

But the usual Jon is Ned's son argument is that he hooked up with Ashara during the war, which is extremely unlikely unless one of them borrowed Littlefinger's jetpack of Varys' teleporter (free virtual cookie to all who get the reference).

So ... you are saying Ned and Ashara is possible in the show, but not the books. That teleporter is pretty nifty. Do I get a cookie, now? 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Certainly, this is GRRM's claim, but I interpret the text he wrote a bit differently. Not going to argue Georges words against his own text, but I am surprised that he writes characters the Cat and Sansa, who behave less than perfect toward their family members, and then he, who created them and wrote their own actions, acts a bit surprised when people find that behavior rather awful and hold it against certain characters. Whatever GRRM says, the fact that Cat never once said Jon's name in 14 years and often caused him to run and cry could certainly be seen as  a case for emotional abuse. Or Jon is just a big baby!

Sitting around in interviews with a R+L on your shirt seems a bit more like trolling than confirmation or hinting, but I agree that in the show, the hints of RLJ have been there since the first season. I think it could be a false path we are being led down, but I am prepared to be wrong. 

It only took him a few sentences in aDwD to give us the idea that Ned was not only traveling around with an anonymous lady at the start of the rebellion, but that he was in a few places people might not have expected. What ever else GRRM might decide to reveal to us might change the story quite a bit in a paragraph or two.

Also, I know that he says two more books, and if that is the case, I expect them to be monstrously big. But the telling is longer than he ever anticipated, and I think he is going to have a hard time wrapping in up in the time and books he says. I am more inclined to think it might be more than two books, like nine total would not surprise me. Right now, I would be happy for the next one just to give us all something new to hash and rehash.

So ... you are saying Ned and Ashara is possible in the show, but not the books. That teleporter is pretty nifty. Do I get a cookie, now? 

 

Keep in mind that he knows far more about these characters than any of the readers ever will. It can be hard as a writer to remember what all the readers don't know when you're so steeped in information yourself. If he says a character isn't X then I take his word for it.

I don't find it remotely incongruous that he would expect readers to understand that one incident happening under extreme circumstances is not the same as a lifetime of such behavior. Nor do I find it odd that he might take exception to people holding a naive and sheltered 11 year old responsible for a beheading she couldn't have foreseen and over which she had no control. 

He was surprised at the lack of love for Darkstar too, but then he knows Darkstar's backstory, and his future. All we have is that he supposedly is a great knight but couldn't kill a little girl in his alleged attempt on her life.

Caused him to run and cry? That makes it sound like she actively sought opportunities to torture him. His reaction to her coldness could certainly have been hurt and tears, but she did not actively abuse him emotionally or otherwise. And I don't buy that she never said his name in 14 years. Jon may not remember her having said it but she probably did. 

Did they really do that??? I don't watch their interviews.

It didn't change any of my ideas of where Ned might have been or who he might have been with. Then again I'm not what you might call normal. 

Yes. From 3 to 7 books is indeed growth. But he's past the middle now, and he's going to be killing off tons of characters between dragon fights, war, and the Others coming. As he gets closer to the end, I expect he'll pick up speed. It's the middle that gets you with these stories. His Waterloo was Meereen, and he's figured that out. I think he can do it in two books. His wife has said the series would be 7 books for quite some time, long before he realized it.

A cookie? Please. You get a dozen cookies! 

[Luddagain]

lady Blzzard

Why would you doubt Jon's memory?   He would recall these sort of things - children do.

Remember he is a castle raised kid and none of the children would have been in close contact with their parents as we would be today - especially the boys.

What with Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrick, Ned and the many servants and men at arms each teaching the boys as well as the usual play of children, other than at dinner time and maybe after dinner family gatherings, would Catelyn even need to come into contact with Jon.  With servants to deliver food etc and Old Nan to care for him when sick, Catelyn could effectively ignore him. 

In fact we rather get the impression that Cat played favourites with the kids - Sansa and Bran No 1 and 2, then Robb, rather neglected Rickon and finally very unloved Arya.

[Luddagain]

St Daga

Not sure what you mean re the teleporter.   What makes you think that ashara (or indeed anyone) spent the whole time in one place. Ashara could have been anywhere between KL and Dorne or the Riverlands or Vale etc.

[St Daga]

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He was surprised at the lack of love for Darkstar too, but then he knows Darkstar's backstory, and his future. All we have is that he supposedly is a great knight but couldn't kill a little girl in his alleged attempt on her life.

Ah, I have missed the peoples hate of Darkstar. I find him very interesting. And Victarion, too! 

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

His wife has said the series would be 7 books for quite some time, long before he realized it.

His lovely wife also scoffed at R+L=J, and said he does not do simple, and she implied RLJ is simple! So, either Parris is trolling us all, or she is only guessing as much as we are!

 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Ah, I have missed the peoples hate of Darkstar. I find him very interesting. And Victarion, too! 

His lovely wife also scoffed at R+L=J, and said he does not do simple, and she implied RLJ is simple! So, either Paris is trolling us all, or she is only guessing as much as we are!

 

Interesting, I have never heard that in all this time! Do you have a source?

[St Daga]

10 hours ago, Luddagain said:

St Daga

Not sure what you mean re the teleporter.   What makes you think that ashara (or indeed anyone) spent the whole time in one place. Ashara could have been anywhere between KL and Dorne or the Riverlands or Vale etc.

Oh, I don't think that. The teleporter comment was in regards to Varys and Littlefinger's movements in the show. Lady Blizzardborn brought that up for character movement all over Westeros when I said I think there is a lot more to be revealed about Ned's activities during the rebellion. I firmly believe that our characters such as Ned, Ashara, Rhaegar and Lyanna had much more movement than a lot of people think. As I stated up thread, I think characters moved around much more than people assume, and Lady B brought up the teleporter at that time. I think horses and boats work fine!

I used Ned's travels from the Vale, sailing through the Bite, landing in Sisterton and eventually getting to White Harbor before Winterfell as proof of how a narrative can change. Before those few lines in a Davos chapter, no one would have put Ned in either Sisterton or White Harbor during the rebellion. I think GRRM has more idea's like that to reveal, and it won't take him much more than a paragraph or two to change our ideas. I think we will learn a lot more about Ned and his character and his movements in the story yet to come! I hope so! The more Ned talk, the happier I am!

Ashara is another mystery, and I in no way think she was just hanging out at Starfall for a year after she left court. She and Arthur are mentioned to much not to have more of a role to play in the story. I think it will be in regards to the past, but it could be in our present story, too. GRRM even tells us she was not nailed to the floor in Dorne, and the Dornish have horses and boats that allow for travel. So I think Ashara traveled.

And Lyanna, ah Lyanna. At first, we don't even know where she was kidnapped from, and lots of people assumed it was from the north. Then, we get info that she was taken in the Riverlands (I think this is in TWOAF, which George himself refers to as semi-canon, so does that mean semi-truth?), although we are not even sure why she was in the Riverlands. And according to popular belief, she ended up in Dorne at the Tower of Joy. I see many people post, and my own friends who read the series, seem to think she was taken directly from her kidnapping sight to the TOJ and remained there until she died, either being raped repeatedly or having her silver prince serenade her with his silver harp. I do not see it that way at all. There is a whole lot missing from her story, and I certainly don't think she was the type to just hang out, get prego, and wait to die. If Arya can get herself out of Harrenhal, Lyanna can get herself out of her prison, too! That is if she was actually kidnapped at all!

Rhaegar is another person who we know only a little bit about his time during the rebellion. He is "missing" for a large amount of time, until he shows back up. What the heck was he doing while his country was being torn apart? He was either hanging out singing love songs to his "lady Lyanna" while their families destroyed each other, or something else was going on. Did he chose to sit out the first part of the war on purpose, hoping his father would call him for help and then he could claim the crown that way? Was he himself kidnapped and unable to join the fray? Why was he not protecting his wife and children, and at least getting them to Dorne for safety? 

I am not a believer in the accepted idea's for what was going on in the rebellion, and who was doing what. People seem to think that there is not enough time left to tell a more complicated story. And I think George can tip the scales with only a line or two, and change everything that we believe in a very short amount of time.

I sometimes think that Rhaegar and Lyanna became the poster children for the rebellion, but very little of what is said to have happened actually did happen. I am a skeptic, however. The more GRRM writes in this story, the more complicated I think his web is.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Interesting, I have never heard that in all this time! Do you have a source?

I have seen it posted several times on Westeros but I didn't save the link to the article I am think about. However, there are SSM's that discuss it. Bear with me, as I have never posted a link before. You many need to cut and paste into your browser if I can't get the link to work. Sorry.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/ConJose_San_Jose_CA_August_29_September_24

I think it is #7 where this is addressed, but as I mention, it is not the actual article I was looking for. I will continue to search but I did not want to leave you hanging.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/ConJose_San_Jose_CA_August_29_September_24

To play devil's advocate with myself, I have included the SSM where George says that Parris doesn't ask, and he doesn't tell her anything about the story plot, so maybe she really has no idea what he has planned.

 

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have seen it posted several times on Westeros but I didn't save the link to the article I am think about. However, there are two SSM's that discuss it. Bear with me, as I have never posted a link before. You many need to cut and paste into your browser if I can't get the link to work. Sorry.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/ConJose_San_Jose_CA_August_29_September_24

I think it is #7 where this is addressed, but as I mention, it is not the actual article I was looking for. I will continue to search but I did not want to leave you hanging.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/ConJose_San_Jose_CA_August_29_September_24

To play devil's advocate with myself, I have included the SSM where George says that Parris doesn't ask, and he doesn't tell her anything about the story plot, so maybe she really has no idea what he has planned.

 

Thank you! 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Thank you! 

Sure. I will say that I have grown suspicious of most anything, and I am aware that Parris could be trying to distract/deflect the fan base from RLJ, which has become so widely accepted, and which may very well be the truth! 

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Sure. I will say that I have grown suspicious of most anything, and I am aware that Parris could be trying to distract/deflect the fan base from RLJ, which has become so widely accepted, and which may very well be the truth! 

I have tons of theories on most everything, some I believe more and others less.  But I admit that the only thing that would really truly shock me would be if R+L=/=J. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

Ah, I have missed the peoples hate of Darkstar. I find him very interesting. And Victarion, too! 

His lovely wife also scoffed at R+L=J, and said he does not do simple, and she implied RLJ is simple! So, either Parris is trolling us all, or she is only guessing as much as we are!

 

I wouldn't say people hate Darkstar exactly. But the response has been rather less excitement over him than GRRM thought we'd have.

Parris has also threatened to divorce him if Arya dies.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Hey everybody! Crackpot time!

Domeric Bolton, the most un-Bolton-like Bolton of whom we know, died young.

Roose claims that he believes Ramsay poisoned Domeric. But why would Ramsay do that? His mother didn't want him. His father didn't want him. Reek1 was assigned to him. The only person who ever sought Ramsay out and actually wanted his company was his brother Domeric.

I'm starting to think that either Domeric really did just die of natural causes, or Roose suspected Domeric might be someone else's son (Brandon Stark, perhaps?) and either had him killed by some unknown person or ordered Ramsay to kill him. Wouldn't that make a lovely "prove you're my son" rite of passage for a member of House Bolton? And wouldn't it be just like Roose to claim total innocence and blame the whole thing on Ramsay?

[Therae]

@Lady Blizzardborn - Or Roose being Roose might even have just made some comment to Ramsay, like, "Hmm. It's a shame the Bolton legacy will pass to Brandon Stark's bastard, but I can't prove he isn't mine and I don't have any other heirs, do I?" and let Ramsay run with it as he saw fit.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Therae said:

@Lady Blizzardborn - Or Roose being Roose might even have just made some comment to Ramsay, like, "Hmm. It's a shame the Bolton legacy will pass to Brandon Stark's bastard, but I can't prove he isn't mine and I don't have any other heirs, do I?" and let Ramsay run with it as he saw fit.

 

Roose being Roose, he would have known exactly what that would have led to, but could still technically claim innocence despite having planted the idea. That works.

[Therae]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Roose being Roose, he would have known exactly what that would have led to, but could still technically claim innocence despite having planted the idea. That works.

Yes! Roose is probably my favorite villain. He is so utterly cool about being so utterly vile. And poor Domeric sounds like he was a lot more Starky than Boltony.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm starting to think that either Domeric really did just die of natural causes, or Roose suspected Domeric might be someone else's son (Brandon Stark, perhaps?) and either had him killed by some unknown person or ordered Ramsay to kill him. Wouldn't that make a lovely "prove you're my son" rite of passage for a member of House Bolton? And wouldn't it be just like Roose to claim total innocence and blame the whole thing on Ramsay?

I have actually seen a theory on this board that Roose is the one that killed Domeric and is spreading the rumor that Ramsay did the dirty deed. I don't believe that a possible the Stark connection was a part of that theory. But it is interesting to me that Domeric was reported to be a wonderful rider, even better than Lyanna, according to Roose. Also, how well did Roose know Lyanna? Both Brandon and Lyanna were like centaurs, according to Lady Dustin. In a previous post I mentioned how Domeric could possibly be Brandons, and how that would have given Roose a reason to try to overthrow House Stark in revenge.

 

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have tons of theories on most everything, some I believe more and others less.  But I admit that the only thing that would really truly shock me would be if R+L=/=J. 

I used to feel that same way about RLJ. Not so much anymore. Well, eventually one of these theories will turn out to be true. Until then, it is very interesting to discuss so many ideas and options.