A Burning Brandon (Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire)

[Isobel Harper]

On 2/23/2017 at 3:28 PM, LmL said:

Here's a nice quote about the white and black dragons:

The Great Pyramid shouldered eight hundred feet into the sky, from its huge square base to the lofty apex where the queen kept her private chambers, surrounded by greenery and fragrant pools. As a cool blue dawn broke over the city, (Dawn is cold and blue, meaning ice magic blue or blue flame blue) Dany walked out onto the terrace. To the west sunlight blazed off the golden domes (gold again in conjunction with Dawnof the Temple of the Graces, and etched deep shadows behind the stepped pyramids of the mighty. In some of those pyramids, the Sons of the Harpy are plotting new murders even now, and I am powerless to stop them. Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. (First, that’s an ouroboros reference, very cool, and the white dragon could stand for a white comet.)

{…}

“You should be hunting with your brothers. Have you (white dragon / meteor sword) and Drogon (the black dragon / meteor sword) been fighting again?”

{…}

Viserion’s tail lashed sideways, thumping the trunk of the tree so hard that a pear came tumbling down (branches of the world tree = celestial realm, so we just saw a “white dragon”, whatever that is, take a star out of the heavens) to land at Dany’s feet. His wings unfolded, and he half flew, half hopped onto the parapet. He grows, she thought as he launched himself into the sky. They are all three growing. Soon they will be large enough to bear my weight. Then she would fly as Aegon the Conqueror had flown, up and up, until Meereen was so small that she could blot it out with her thumb.  (thoughts of flying dragons and blotting out cities and the black dragon Aegon the Conqueror, who fits the Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai archetype) (ADWD, Daenerys)

Couple that scene with this one...

Daenerys received the captain on her terrace, seated on a carved stone bench beneath a pear tree. A half-moon floated in the sky above the city, attended by a thousand stars. Daario Naharis entered swaggering. He swaggers even when he is standing still. The captain wore striped pantaloons tucked into high boots of purple leather, a white silk shirt, a vest of golden rings. His trident beard was purple, his flamboyant mustachios gold, his long curls equal parts of both. On one hip he wore a stiletto, on the other a Dothraki arakh. "Bright queen," he said, "you have grown more beautiful in my absence. How is this thing possible?

...

"I have not eaten in two days, but now that I am here, it is enough for me to feast upon your beauty."

"My beauty will not fill up your belly." She plucked down a pear and tossed it at him. "Eat this."

"If my queen commands it." He took a bite of the pear, his gold tooth gleaming. Juice ran down into his purple beard.  ADwD, Daenerys IV

...and you have a parallel to Adam and Eve!  A serpent knocking down a fruit from the symbolic tree of knowledge, then Eve-Dany giving a fruit from that same tree to Adam-Daario.  The juice runs down his chin, just like Sansa's pear in ASoS does.  Pears represent sexuality.  After Adam and Eve ate The Forbidden Fruit, they committed the "sin of fornication" for the first time.  Soon after this, Dany and Daario begin their sexual relationship.  Also notice that there is a half-moon this night, which fits into the black vs white dichotomy you've been discussing.

[Isobel Harper]

On 2/23/2017 at 4:10 PM, GloubieBoulga said:

In fact, "aurora borealis" means exactly "dawn of the north" or "pink light of the north", borealis in latin is an adjective for the north, forged after the greek name of a god of the north "Boreas". The origin of this name is actually unknown. 

Aurora just means dawn and has the same root than "east", because the sun come from the east ^^. 

 

(I take time to read all your compendia, I had only read the compendium about lightbringer and the bloodstone Emperor, and I'm with the burning Brandon ^^)

Where are you getting "pink" from?  I thought aurora had roots meaning dawn/east/golden.

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aurora (n.)

late 14c., from Latin Aurora, the Roman goddess of dawn, from PIE *ausus- "dawn," also the name of the Indo-European goddess of the dawn, from root *aus- (1) "to shine," especially of the dawn (source also of Greek eos "dawn," auein "to dry, kindle;" Sanskrit usah, Lithuanian ausra "dawn;" Latin auster "south wind," usum "to burn;" Old English east "east").

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aureate (adj.)

early 15c., "gold, gold-colored," also figuratively, "splendid, brilliant," from Latin aureatus "decorated with gold," from aureus "golden," from aurum "gold," from PIE root *aus- (2) "gold" (source also of Sanskrit ayah "metal," Avestan ayo, Latin aes "brass," Old English ar "brass, copper, bronze," Gothic aiz "bronze," Old Lithuanian ausas "gold"), probably related to root *aus- "to shine" (see aurora).

 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

Couple that scene with this one...

Daenerys received the captain on her terrace, seated on a carved stone bench beneath a pear tree. A half-moon floated in the sky above the city, attended by a thousand stars. Daario Naharis entered swaggering. He swaggers even when he is standing still. The captain wore striped pantaloons tucked into high boots of purple leather, a white silk shirt, a vest of golden rings. His trident beard was purple, his flamboyant mustachios gold, his long curls equal parts of both. On one hip he wore a stiletto, on the other a Dothraki arakh. "Bright queen," he said, "you have grown more beautiful in my absence. How is this thing possible?

...

"I have not eaten in two days, but now that I am here, it is enough for me to feast upon your beauty."

"My beauty will not fill up your belly." She plucked down a pear and tossed it at him. "Eat this."

"If my queen commands it." He took a bite of the pear, his gold tooth gleaming. Juice ran down into his purple beard.  ADwD, Daenerys IV

...and you have a parallel to Adam and Eve!  A serpent knocking down a fruit from the symbolic tree of knowledge, then Eve-Dany giving a fruit from that same tree to Adam-Daario.  The juice runs down his chin, just like Sansa's pear in ASoS does.  Pears represent sexuality.  After Adam and Eve ate The Forbidden Fruit, they committed the "sin of fornication" for the first time.  Soon after this, Dany and Daario begin their sexual relationship.  Also notice that there is a half-moon this night, which fits into the black vs white dichotomy you've been discussing.

Oh that's a really nice one Isobel! Sounds like someone might get another shout-out in an upcoming podcast.... you know I love that Garden of Eden stuff! That's a home run - I have even looked at those two scenes many times but never connected them. It's amazing how much is lying right under your nose in these books, lol. 

I wish I knew better what George is doing with half moons and black and white moon faces. It's more than the idea of the two moons as yin and yang... I get this feeling like it might be talking about mixing the two types of moon meteor swords. Look at Longclaw - pale stone pommel like Dawn, but otherwise dark Valyrian steel. The sword "Nightfall" has a moonstone pommel, and those are milky bluish white, while Ilyn Pyane's new blade is bright silver gleaming with runes, but has a black dragonglass pommel.  Longclaw in particular speaks of somehow combining black meteors and hiwte weirwood or some shit, I don't know. Half moons vex me. 

[Unchained]

On 2/23/2017 at 2:45 PM, ravenous reader said:

I do believe you are the first -- that sounds like an exciting topic for you to explore!

That is such a marvelous idea that I flew onto my grey stallion and rode through space and time to whisper to my past self of about a week ago in their ear through the rustling of the leaves to go ahead and start it so it would be ready just for you by now.

 

Allow me to now shamelessly promote my first OP Weddings, Lightbringer, Animal Familiars and Character Arcs.  I would have made that a link, but I have not figured out how to do that yet. It is here on the forums so people will find it who want to.  

 

One of the best finds I made is mentioned in the essay, but most of it is beyond the scope of the very basic easy to understand piece I wrote.  I want to put it here in full.

 

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Robb gave Edwyn an angry look and moved to block his way . . . and staggered suddenly as a quarrel sprouted from his side, just beneath the shoulder. 

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A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

 

Both of these are from ASoS, Catelyn 7

 

The quarrel SPROUTED, as in like a branch.  Then several more appear.  This looks an awful lot like sacrificial King of Winter Robb is turned into a tree, then promptly stabbed in the heart with a sword by a man in dark armor who is at this very moment usurping him.  

 

@LmL,

 

I wanted to get back with you about a few things.  First the idea that the iron Islands are volcanic.  I had to google what a caldera was, but you are right about that.  In hindsight, the idea should have been on my mind as soon as you said a  dragon person moved there because dragonstone is.  A volcanic island off the coast of an unconquered continent that may be full of meteor ore is prime real estate for entrepreneurial dragon people who strike out on their own.  It also makes the island a pretty solid Lightbringer with its rising from the sea amongst volcano smoke and sea salt.  

 

Second, Euron as the third lie to be slain, honestly that is just a hunch at this point.  I agree that the vision applies to too many people at this point.  I first wanted to narrow the field.  From Dany's perspective Aegon and Stannis are pretty similar,  rival Monarchs who pretend to be the heir and AA respectively.  Based on what Moqorro says to Tyrion, Euron is her biggest rival.  He also needs to be a liar.  I feel he is pretending to be a god.  He gives shade to the Damphair who then sees Euron claiming to be his god.  As a stone beast, I do not have anything to say but point to the theories about him working with the Shrouded Lord and being connected to Greyscale which are thin at best.  As someone flying from a tower that is different.  As we discussed there is reason to believe the Hightower is a mirror of Bran's tower fall, and Euron wants to fly from a tall tower as well.  He is a hoarder of Valyrian artifacts already.  The Hightower as an analog of Sauron and Saruman's towers is great.  I wondered how he would fly like Bran, he cannot also be a greenseer, but the next best thing is to be a user of an ASoIaF palantir, a glass candle.  Before I thought he already had one, but now I wonder if he won't acquire one at the Hightower.  

[LmL]

30 minutes ago, Unchained said:

The quarrel SPROUTED, as in like a branch.  Then several more appear.  This looks an awful lot like sacrificial King of Winter Robb is turned into a tree, then promptly stabbed in the heart with a sword by a man in dark armor who is at this very moment usurping him.  

That's nice, I'll have to re-read that section.  Sounds promising!

Man, there have been a lot of great ideas on this thread! Great job everyone! This makes me happy, when my essays spur on new conversation and ideas... that's as good as it gets. Thanks everybody

[GloubieBoulga]

3 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Where are you getting "pink" from?  I thought aurora had roots meaning dawn/east/golden.

Oh yes, I take it from the homeric (and very popular after) expression "Dawn with roses fingers" ("rodo-daktylos" in greek) "Dawn with roses arm" ("rodopekhus"). Rose is the flower and indicate the color of the sky before the sun appears. That's why the pink (and other nuances from violet to red) is associated with. She's also said "with saffron dress" for the yellow ("krokopeplos" - and note that the specific kind of "crocus" which gives the saffron has purple petals).

Aurora/Eos is the sister of the sun and precedes him, but is not the sun himself. 

For example, I find Daenerys has a very strong association with Aurora, and the gold of Targaryen's hairs is pale, it isn't the gold of Lannister's

Edit : for Daenerys, I mean that the association with Aurora is strong after the Red Waste. With Drogo, she is always associated with the moon. 

[Equilibrium]

8 hours ago, LmL said:

 

Hey EQ, good to see you round my brother. This one was quite focused for two reasons: I chose to cut out other whole sections which were a part of this in order to better develop the Nightfort scene and its connections to Queenscrown and Bran's fall from the tower.  As soon as I did that the thing really came alive. The second reason is that so many other people (whom I mentioned in the essay) had already done good work on Bran or had helped me develop my Bran ideas in chat before making the episode. Also, I've been holding Bran back until we were ready for him, so it was kind of an explosion. We have more Bran ideas to go obviously, I haven't talked about Fisher Kings or Bran the Blessed or his Tully fish symbolism. 

The milky way Yggdrasil thing makes a certain amount of sense, but there is a potential problem. The much more widely accepted correlation to mythical world trees like Yggy is that of the world axis. Even the milky way itself appears to rotate with the canopy of stars, while the axis and the northstar atop it alone are immovable, central. We have everything from navel stones to sacred mountains to cosmic trees and tree totems, but they are all the same thing - the cosmic axis (which they perceived as the earth's axis).  I mean, it's quite a feature fo the sky - it spins in a circle. The Northstar looks like the point of a spindle on which the sky turns, so it's logical to imagine a tree. Now, it's possible Yggy is referring to more than one thing, and that there is overlap, so I am not trying to be dogmatic.. but it is first and foremost the cosmic axis, the axis mundi. 

As for the milky way, it's all over the place in the books. The Milkwater is the most obvious, Nymeria's ships might be a reference to that, and I think Martin is actually likening Dawn and the Wall to the milky way in some senses. I think he might be associating the milk way with a crossing over point river, like the Styx, which is one reason why the weirwood door is milk and moonlight. 

As for transubstantiaton, not all Catholics literally believe that - most do not in fact. It's one of those weird things that doesn't really make sense in modern times, and so has been de=emphasized. But you're right to point out that some take it more literally. 

No need to explain, it was great and focused approach is perfectly viable (not all the time) it's just that it is so thoroughly explained and backed that I have nothing strictly related to add, unless we want another endless discusion of how exactly are mythological figuers related

Well yes, world axis, but the Milky Way seen from Norway looks like a world axis and a tree, take a look at this photo https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4153/5087379936_a3948b4c52_b.jpg

As I mentioned Milky Way was seen down south as a river, so you may be onto something, I think wall, barrier (as in Styx) explaination would be novel, but I could have influences in the mythology I don't know of, and it certainly can be made to work.

And for the sunstone, I would advise you that in your travels (through Planetos, via reading :D) you pay attention to the cloudy weather and rays of sun some character sees, especially if it relates to orientation. North is great place for such scenes, and Bran and Jon likely candidates, since that ray of light and sunstone feeds into saviour symbolism.

I would disagree with most Catholics not believing transubstantiation, as mine anecdotal evidence says otherwise, most of the people I know just roll with it in the "God can do all he wants, don't question" kind of way, but few inquisitive and imaginative ones come up with all sorts of explanations sometimes involving copious amounts of science, with quantum physics being the favorite.

 

 

[Bluetiger]

2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

No need to explain, it was great and focused approach is perfectly viable (not all the time) it's just that it is so thoroughly explained and backed that I have nothing strictly related to add, unless we want another endless discusion of how exactly are mythological figuers related

Well yes, world axis, but the Milky Way seen from Norway looks like a world axis and a tree, take a look at this photo https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4153/5087379936_a3948b4c52_b.jpg

As I mentioned Milky Way was seen down south as a river, so you may be onto something, I think wall, barrier (as in Styx) explaination would be novel, but I could have influences in the mythology I don't know of, and it certainly can be made to work.

And for the sunstone, I would advise you that in your travels (through Planetos, via reading :D) you pay attention to the cloudy weather and rays of sun some character sees, especially if it relates to orientation. North is great place for such scenes, and Bran and Jon likely candidates, since that ray of light and sunstone feeds into saviour symbolism.

I would disagree with most Catholics not believing transubstantiation, as mine anecdotal evidence says otherwise, most of the people I know just roll with it in the "God can do all he wants, don't question" kind of way, but few inquisitive and imaginative ones come up with all sorts of explanations sometimes involving copious amounts of science, with quantum physics being the favorite.

 

 

Here is a rellevant chapter from the catechism: Catechism.

Technically anybody who does not believe in this is not a true Catholic.

But from those who declare they're Catholics, I've heard about 48% declare they believe in transubstantion.

Speaking of funny anecdotes...

Spoiler

 

In certain poll carried out in Poland, 95% declared they're Catholics... But when asked about whether they believe in God, 81% said yes.

48% of those asked believed in Jesus's death at the cross, 47% in resurrection.

38% believe in Heaven, 31% in Hell, 28% in purgatory, 21% in devil's existence....

So in reality about 1/3 of these 'Catholics' are Catholics at all... 

Disclaimer: I sadly don't have any soure, but several newspapers gave such numbers. This is not meant to offend anybody, as I'm Catholic myself.

 

 

[Equilibrium]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

Here is a rellevant chapter from the catechism: Catechism.

Technically anybody who does not believe in this is not a true Catholic.

But from those who declare they're Catholics, I've heard about 48% declare they believe in transubstantion.

Speaking of funny anecdotes...

  Reveal hidden contents

 

In certain poll carried out in Poland, 95% declared they're Catholics... But when asked about whether they believe in God, 81% said yes.

48% of those asked believed in Jesus's death at the cross, 47% in resurrection.

38% believe in Heaven, 31% in Hell, 28% in purgatory, 21% in devil's existence....

So in reality about 1/3 of these 'Catholics' are Catholics at all... 

Disclaimer: I sadly don't have any soure, but several newspapers gave such numbers. This is not meant to offend anybody, as I'm Catholic myself.

 

 

I would risk calling those people cultural Catholics (Christians) but I have been informed that concept of cultural Christians is Islamophobic, xenophobic, homophobic, racist and sexist

People tend to hold their religious identity dearly even when they don't practice or adhere to the religion at all. It is part of their tradition, national and family identity.

When I was speaking about my anecdotal evidence I must admit I was referring to the Catholics who don't express their religion just to the census official or poll maker.

I don't know why you thought you need to preemptively apologize since those people have absolutely no right to be offended.

I will never understand that btw, people not following the tenants of the faith and being offended that it is even expected of them. There is religious freedom (in the civilized world at least) and no one has to be say Catholic, but if you are that act accordingly. If someone doesn't like something about particular religion, then he should change it, because religion shouldn't be forced to change to fit popular opinions.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Equilibrium said:

I will never understand that btw, people not following the tenants of the faith and being offended that it is even expected of them. There is religious freedom (in the civilized world at least) and no one has to be say Catholic, but if you are that act accordingly. If someone doesn't like something about particular religion, then he should change it, because religion shouldn't be forced to change to fit popular opinions.

I don't know where you live, but in the US it's called "raised Catholic", because so many people were dragged to church as kids and still have some religious inclinations, but don't go to church or consider themselves adherents to it. I'd wager there are also a lot of people who attend Catholic services on holidays and such but are not familiar enough with the catechism to realize the Church's all-or-nothing view on points of doctrine (or how different Catholicism is from protestantism in general).

[Bluetiger]

6 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I don't know where you live, but in the US it's called "raised Catholic", because so many people were dragged to church as kids and still have some religious inclinations, but don't go to church or consider themselves adherents to it. I'd wager there are also a lot of people who attend Catholic services on holidays and such but are not familiar enough with the catechism to realize the Church's all-or-nothing view on points of doctrine (or how different Catholicism is from protestantism in general).

Here they're called 'non-practising' Catholics.

[cgrav]

13 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Here they're called 'non-practising' Catholics.

yeah "raised Catholic" is a colloquialism, it's just what everyone says who is no longer practicing (and I suspect are often afraid or too polite to admit they're atheists). 

[Equilibrium]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I don't know where you live, but in the US it's called "raised Catholic", because so many people were dragged to church as kids and still have some religious inclinations, but don't go to church or consider themselves adherents to it. I'd wager there are also a lot of people who attend Catholic services on holidays and such but are not familiar enough with the catechism to realize the Church's all-or-nothing view on points of doctrine (or how different Catholicism is from protestantism in general).

Not referring to them at all. I talked about them for the first part, in reply to Blue Tiger, but later I digressed.

It's about people who reject tenants and always debate about Church doctrine by the Church even though they consider themselves practicing Catholic, not about . They usually demand their acceptance by the Church and having their voices heard and then get offended when someone puts them in their place or raised doubts about their faith, since they can comprehend that doctrine isn't negotiable. So I wasn't referring to raised Catholics, non practicing Catholics, cultural Christians or however we will call non-affiliated people with Catholic background.

Anyway, way off topic, so we can as well wrap this digression as soon as possible. 

 

 

[Isobel Harper]

22 hours ago, LmL said:

Oh that's a really nice one Isobel! Sounds like someone might get another shout-out in an upcoming podcast.... you know I love that Garden of Eden stuff! That's a home run - I have even looked at those two scenes many times but never connected them. It's amazing how much is lying right under your nose in these books, lol. 

I wish I knew better what George is doing with half moons and black and white moon faces. It's more than the idea of the two moons as yin and yang... I get this feeling like it might be talking about mixing the two types of moon meteor swords. Look at Longclaw - pale stone pommel like Dawn, but otherwise dark Valyrian steel. The sword "Nightfall" has a moonstone pommel, and those are milky bluish white, while Ilyn Pyane's new blade is bright silver gleaming with runes, but has a black dragonglass pommel.  Longclaw in particular speaks of somehow combining black meteors and hiwte weirwood or some shit, I don't know. Half moons vex me. 

I've read those two scenes tons of times myself, and didn't put them together until yesterday for some reason.    I don't why these "light bulb moments" go off when they do.   

White and black also reminds me of the House of Black and White and cyvasse.  HoBaW worship a death god, and when "dragons dance, people die" and cycasse is a game depicting wars between two rivals.

I personally take the white and black dichotomy that GRRM sprinkles throughout the text as a comment about absolutes.  (Yes, it has something to do with Dawn/Valyrian Steel and a white and black dragon.  I'll explain...)  Melisandre says "If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil."  But is he?  When Sam is given an onion he seized one eagerly. One side was black with rot, but he cut that part off with his dagger and ate the good half raw.  The onion gave him sustenance anyway.  And what is the purpose of the Night's Watch but to give a man salvation for his crime(s)?  A man who steals could be thrown into prison or have his hand cut away, or he could join the Night's Watch and serve the realm instead. 

Melisandre's comment about the onion is not her only speech on absolutes:

"We all must choose," she proclaimed. "Man or woman, young or old, lord or peasant, our choices are the same." Her voice made Jon Snow think of anise and nutmeg and cloves. She stood at the king's side on a wooden scaffold raised above the pit. "We choose light or we choose darkness. We choose good or we choose evil. We choose the true god or the false."  ADwD, Jon III

Notice how Melisandre uses the terms "old," "young," "true," "false," "bright," and "dark" like Moqorro.  And yet "If ice can burn... then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."  Even Daemon Targaryen is considered morally grey, per the author of The Rouge Prince, which opens with:

Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both. In his day there was not a man so admired, so beloved, and so reviled in all Westeros. He was made of light and darkness in equal parts. To some he was a hero, to others the blackest of villains.

A person is bright and dark, true and false, both.  Heck, a person can even be young and old!  Sansa reflects that Beric Dondarrion is too old for Jeyne Poole when she fawns over him in AGoT, but Cersei refers to Aurane Waters as "just a sly boy."  They are both 22 years old at the time of these reflections.

The conflict between a white and a black sword or dragon is a battle of absolutes.  The white comet/dragon reflects a people that refused to work magic, no?  But magic can do good, not just bad.  Magic can (potentially) crash a comet into a moon, but it can also deflect a comet that is already going to crash into the moon or planet.  As you and Aziz point out in your GEotD video, dragons aren't only breed for war.  They could also be used to build roads, bridges, or castles. 

 

21 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Oh yes, I take it from the homeric (and very popular after) expression "Dawn with roses fingers" ("rodo-daktylos" in greek) "Dawn with roses arm" ("rodopekhus"). Rose is the flower and indicate the color of the sky before the sun appears. That's why the pink (and other nuances from violet to red) is associated with. She's also said "with saffron dress" for the yellow ("krokopeplos" - and note that the specific kind of "crocus" which gives the saffron has purple petals).

Saffron is used to describe dawn once!

To the east, the first pale light of day suffused the sky above the river. The waters of the Rhoyne slowly went from black to blue, to match the sellsword's hair and beard. Griff got to his feet. "The others should wake soon. The deck is yours." As the nightingales fell silent, the river larks took up their song. Egrets splashed amongst the reeds and left their tracks across the sandbars. The clouds in the sky were aglow: pink and purple, maroon and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked like a dragon. Once a man has seen a dragon in flight, let him stay at home and tend his garden in content, someone had written once, for this wide world has no greater wonder. Tyrion scratched at his scar and tried to recall the author's name. Dragons had been much in his thoughts of late. 

 

The flower "rose" and the past form of "rise" are thought to be wordplay.  I recall a discussion of it on Seams' Pun and Wordplay thread.  @Seams could fill you in more, as she's more familiar with the rose/rose wordplay than I am.

 

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Aurora/Eos is the sister of the sun and precedes him, but is not the sun himself. 

For example, I find Daenerys has a very strong association with Aurora, and the gold of Targaryen's hairs is pale, it isn't the gold of Lannister's

Edit : for Daenerys, I mean that the association with Aurora is strong after the Red Waste. With Drogo, she is always associated with the moon. 

We only know three seasons of the Myrish song "The Seasons of My Love."  

I loved a maid as gold as summer, with sunlight in her hair.

I loved a maid as red as autumn, with sunset in her hair.

I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair.

Seasons are likened to stages of day and night.  We don't know what color of light the maid of spring has in her hair.  I'm guessing rosy or pink, the most common color that dawn in described as.  (Purple is too, but I can't imagine a maid being "purple.")  It might be silver, but silver seems to be more connected to the moon than the dawn. 

However, silver and gold are colors that commonly describe the moon and sun, respectively.  Targaryens have both silver and gold hair.  Dawn and dusk?  It's theorized that Valyrians directly descend from the Great Emperors of the Dawn, but this empire (via the Bloodstone Emperor) also brought "dusk" to the Golden Age when they caused the Long Night in some way.

The dawn/dusk dichotomy could be an aspect of good/bad in relation to "grey" morality that I was discussing in my response to LmL.  A person can use power/magic to bring dawn or dusk.  And, Azor Ahai might have done both.

ETA: @LmL re: the halfmoon and black and white as opposing sides:

@Lady Blizzardborn recently opened a thread concerning the possibility of Daario being a Blackfyre descendant.  If so, the halfmoon could depict two opposing sides (Targaryen and Blackfyre) becoming one.  After all, the pear scene is a love scene.

This thread is rather convincing if you'd like to check it out. 

[GloubieBoulga]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

However, silver and gold are colors that commonly describe the moon and sun, respectively.  Targaryens have both silver and gold hair.  Dawn and dusk?

So... Aurora is the sister of Moon (Selene) and Sun (Helios), and she makes "physically" the link between the two. Perhaps the answer is here. I wonder now how we could see the "Bride of fire" from the visions at the House of Undying : first she married with the sun and was the moon; third, will she "marry" (I use "marry" just because I don't find another word, but I don't theorise a marriage) Jon Snow (fire of the moon ?) being herself the sun ? Logically, the second could be Daenerys as the Dawn or the dusk "marrying" with the Dusk or the dawn (could it be Euron and his dream of resurrecting Valyria's empire ? A new dawn in dreams, but a dusk in reality, with perhaps the doom of Volantis ?)

 

46 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

We only know three seasons of the Myrish song "The Seasons of My Love."  

I loved a maid as gold as summer, with sunlight in her hair.

I loved a maid as red as autumn, with sunset in her hair.

I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair.

I had forgotten this song !! Thanks for recall !

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

<snip

However, silver and gold are colors that commonly describe the moon and sun, respectively.  Targaryens have both silver and gold hair.  Dawn and dusk?  It's theorized that Valyrians directly descend from the Great Emperors of the Dawn, but this empire (via the Bloodstone Emperor) also brought "dusk" to the Golden Age when they caused the Long Night in some way.

<snip

ETA: @LmL re: the halfmoon and black and white as opposing sides:

@Lady Blizzardborn recently opened a thread concerning the possibility of Daario being a Blackfyre descendant.  If so, the halfmoon could depict two opposing sides (Targaryen and Blackfyre) becoming one.  After all, the pear scene is a love scene.

This thread is rather convincing if you'd like to check it out. 

Thanks for the shout-out, Isobel Harper!

Speaking of the GEotD, Dany has been given gifts containing the stones associated with most of the Emperors. She's missing three I think. Will have to check my files to see which ones haven't come to her yet.

[ravenous reader]

13 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Where are you getting "pink" from?  I thought aurora had roots meaning dawn/east/golden.

Apart from the Homeric conventions identified by Gloubie, the Aurora Borealis (or 'Dawn Lights'...'Northern Lights') has two predominant colors: pink and green.

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

We only know three seasons of the Myrish song "The Seasons of My Love."  

I loved a maid as gold as summer, with sunlight in her hair.

I loved a maid as red as autumn, with sunset in her hair.

I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair.

To which the following is a parallel:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

"In time," Cressen replied. "If the gods are good, they will grant us a warm autumn and bountiful harvests, so we might prepare for the winter to come." The smallfolk said that a long summer meant an even longer winter, but the maester saw no reason to frighten the child with such tales.

Patchface rang his bells. "It is always summer under the sea," he intoned. "The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

Shireen giggled. "I should like a gown of silver seaweed."

 

Quote

Seasons are likened to stages of day and night.  We don't know what color of light the maid of spring has in her hair.  I'm guessing rosy or pink, the most common color that dawn in described as.  (Purple is too, but I can't imagine a maid being "purple.")  It might be silver, but silver seems to be more connected to the moon than the dawn. 

However, silver and gold are colors that commonly describe the moon and sun, respectively.  Targaryens have both silver and gold hair.  Dawn and dusk?  It's theorized that Valyrians directly descend from the Great Emperors of the Dawn, but this empire (via the Bloodstone Emperor) also brought "dusk" to the Golden Age when they caused the Long Night in some way.

The dawn/dusk dichotomy could be an aspect of good/bad in relation to "grey" morality that I was discussing in my response to LmL.  A person can use power/magic to bring dawn or dusk.  And, Azor Ahai might have done both.

The bloodstone emperor usurped power from the amethyst empress, ushering in the Long Night=Winter.  So the return of the amethyst --purple/pink -- might indicate the return of spring!

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

The dawn/dusk dichotomy could be an aspect of good/bad in relation to "grey" morality that I was discussing in my response to LmL.  A person can use power/magic to bring dawn or dusk.  And, Azor Ahai might have done both.

That's why the evening star and the morning star (Venus, Lucifer, Lightbringer) are one -- one but overwrinkled! 

 

[LmL]

@Equilibrium, I appreciate your comments, but I do want to disagree with one thing. I absolutely think that the old religions must adapt to the modern age, or they risk going extinct. The Superficial customs are not the important part of a religion, although that's what most people identify the religion by. It's the deeper philosophical and esoteric truth that are important, and those truths are of course Universal to all religions. The trappings of the religion itself don't really matter, so it's fine if they adjust for the Modern Age. It's the values in the teachings that need to survive, and they can be a benefit to new generations. Beliefs formed before the Advent of modern science simply don't cut it without some modification in today's world. The only rational way to understand transubstantiation is as a metaphor, and the church does tremendous damage by pushing the idea that it's literally true. They've been making that mistake for thousands of years of course, but it's a mistake none the less. I absolutely support the factions within any given religion that would move it forward into the Modern Age.

[Bluetiger]

21 minutes ago, LmL said:

@Equilibrium, I appreciate your comments, but I do want to disagree with one thing. I absolutely think that the old religions must adapt to the modern age, or they risk going extinct. The Superficial customs are not the important part of a religion, although that's what most people identify the religion by. It's the deeper philosophical and esoteric truth that are important, and those truths are of course Universal to all religions. The trappings of the religion itself don't really matter, so it's fine if they adjust for the Modern Age. It's the values in the teachings that need to survive, and they can be a benefit to new generations. Beliefs formed before the Advent of modern science simply don't cut it without some modification in today's world. The only rational way to understand transubstantiation is as a metaphor, and the church does tremendous damage by pushing the idea that it's literally true. They've been making that mistake for thousands of years of course, but it's a mistake none the less. I absolutely support the factions within any given religion that would move it forward into the Modern Age.

Are you mayhaps familiar with the so called Celtic Christianity?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Christianity?wprov=sfla1

Speaking of religion, I will not present my views on this matter in a straightforward way. My writing shall reveal it. 

[LmL]

I believe the best color Association for Dawn and sunrise is the rainbow. I looked at all the sunrise scenes, trying to figure out what Martin might be trying to say with his descriptions of sunrise. But I keep coming back to is that most often, the dawn brings ever turn of all color to the world. The seeing you quoted above is a great example - we get a whole Litany of colors. Other times, Dawn is specifically said to return color to the world. Sunset, on the other hand, is fairly consistent - it's almost always associated with red, and with blood or blood bruises. We get a few blue desks, which may have something to say about the Warlock wine, but I think it's pretty easy to see that the associations with sunset are of death and blood and fire. That lines up with the song above - the made of autumn has red hair. Setting aside color, Sunset and autumn both speak of death, or of the last dwindling years of life that comes before death. The dawn is of course a birth or rebirth. 

Returning to the concept of rainbows, end of the entire spectrum of color being returned to the World by sunrise, consider the persistent associations between rainbows and ice and crystal. All of these things are tied to icy objects, and icy ymbolism. This seems to be very harmonious with the idea of dawn as being the original ice, end of the dawn lights as being the Northern Lights. The wall is compared to Crystal, and casts rainbows. So in terms of symbolism, I see the sword of Nightfall - the black sword - as bringing blood and fire, waves of blood and night. This or that Returns the day, the sword of the morning, should bring back all the color of life, hence the rainbow symbolism. 

That all seems to square Neely enough for me, but then when we look at the half moons, and Jon's black sword with a Pale Stone pommel, and I can't help but wonder if it goes further. It's one thing to express the black and white dichotomy as opposites, but the whole concept of Yin and Yang is that opposites are also two halves of a whole. This is where I return to my statement about half moons vexing me. The Broken Sword symbols also suggest the idea of combining opposite events and or reforging the broken sword, possibly with some new element added in.