How old is Braavos? When was the city founded?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Several fan-sites state that the age of Braavos is 700 or 800 years (i.e., meaning that the city was founded in 400 or 500 BC). These statements could already be found back in 2007. However, none of those website list a reference or reasoning for the date, and I haven’t been able to find one elsewhere, either, which has made me wonder about where the date came from, and whether or not it is correct (and if so, which one of the two).

My suspicions are people have the idea that the city's location was revealed only around the time of the Doom, and that Arya's quote from A Feast for Crows (shown below) has led to the conclusion that the city was founded either two or three hundred years (depending on the interpretation of the quote) before ~100 BC, placing it's founding date in either 400 BC or 500 BC.

Braavos was a city made for secrets, a city of fogs and masks and whispers. Its very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned; its location had been hidden thrice that long.

(A Feast for Crows, Chapter 34, Cat of the Canals)

While it certainly is possible that Braavos's location became known only around the time of the Doom, it is not a confirmed fact as far as I am aware, which means that we cannot say that the city was founded only 300 or 400 years before the Doom.

 

So this thread is an attempt to most accurately figure out how old Braavos is, and between which time-points we can state with certainty that the city was founded.

 

We know that Braavos is the youngest of the nine Free Cities. This gives us a minimum, as we know a specific date for one of these cities: Lorath, founded as a Free City in 1436 BC. Thus, Braavos cannot be older than this, but is it possible to close the possible window of time for Braavos’s founding further?

 

We know that Braavos was founded before Valyria’s destruction (114 BC), after slaves revolted and sailed away on Valyrian ships that were bringing them to new colonies on the Summer Isles.

According to the tales of the Braavosi, a huge slaver fleet that had been out collecting tributes in human flesh from the lands of the Summer and Jade Seas became victim to a slave uprising instead; the success of this uprising was doubtless dependent on the fact that the Valyrians were wont to use slaves as oarsmen and even sailors, and that these men then joined the uprising. Seizing control of the fleet but realizing there was no place nearby to hide from the Freehold, the slaves instead elected to seek out some land far from Valyria and its subjects, and founded their own city in hiding.

(The World of Ice & Fire, Ancient History: Valyria’s Children)

 

Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos, who rose in a bloody rebellion, seized control of the ships on which they were being transported, and fled to "the far ends of the earth" to escape their erstwhile masters. Knowing they would be hunted, the slaves turned away from their intended destination and sailed north instead of south, seeking a refuge as far from Valyria and her vengeance as could be found. Braavosi histories claim that a group of slave women from the distant lands of the Jogos Nhai prophesied where they would find shelter: in a distant lagoon behind a wall of pine-clad hills and sea stones, where the frequent fogs would help to hide the refugees from the eyes of dragonriders passing overhead. And so it proved. These women were priestesses, called moonsingers, and to this day the Temple of the Moonsingers is the greatest in Braavos.

(The World of Ice & Fire, The Free Cities: Braavos)

 

Unfortunately, we do not know when the Valyrians established colonies in Sothoryos. Though we know that they established a colony on Basilisk Point on three occasions, these are all far too old to have been the colony in Sothoryos mentioned here, as they were all founded before the fall of the Empire of Old Ghis.

The Freehold of Valyria thrice established colonies on Basilisk Point: the first was destroyed by the Brindled Men, the second lost to plague, and the third was abandoned when the dragonlords captured Zamettar in the Fourth Ghiscari War.

(The World of Ice & Fire, Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos)

 

We know that the Doom of Valyria occurred in 114 BC, and that the Century of Blood followed the Doom. Additionally, we know this of the founding of Braavos:

[...] Thus, for more than a century, Braavos was known as the Secret City.

Sealord Uthero Zalyne put an end to that secrecy, sending forth his ships to every corner of the world to proclaim the existence and location of Braavos, and invite men of all nations to celebrate the 111th festival of the city's founding. By that time all of the original escaped slaves were dead, along with all of their former masters. Even so, Uthero had sent envoys from the Iron Bank to Valyria several years prior, to clear the way for what became known as the Uncloaking or the Unmasking of Uthero. The dragonlords proved to have little interest in the descendants of slaves who had escaped a century before, and the Iron Bank paid handsome settlements to the grandchildren of the men whose ships the founders had seized and sailed away (whilst refusing to pay for the value of the slaves themselves).

(The World of Ice & Fire, The Free Cities: Braavos)

 

With Braavos sending ships to Valyria, we can say that Braavos was founded at least 111 years before the Doom took place in 114 BC, placing Braavos’s founding no later than 225 BC.

 

Although the envoys were send out to proclaim both the existence of the city and its location, it seems they proclaimed only its existence:

Braavos was a city made for secrets, a city of fogs and masks and whispers. Its very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned; its location had been hidden thrice that long.

(A Feast for Crows, Chapter 34, Cat of the Canals)

 

For centuries, the Braavosi remained hidden from the world in their remote lagoon. And even after it unveiled itself, Braavos continued to be known as the Secret City.

(The World of Ice & Fire, Ancient History: Valyria’s Children)

 

Whether Arya means to say that Braavos’s location remained a secret for three hundred years since its founding, or three hundred years since its existence was revealed has been a topic of discussion. But at least three hundred years after it was founded, Braavos’s location became known to all.

 

Braavos’s location seems to have been revealed before the start of the Century of Blood. Harwyn Hoare, the grandfather of Harren the Black, visited Braavos in his youth, presumably before his own rule began. Although we don’t know Harwyn’s age at this visit, the length of his reign, or the length of the reign of his son Halleck, we know that the reign of his grandson Harren’s lasted about forty years, and that Harwyn lived to the age of 64, making it likely that Harwyn’s visit to Braavos occurred near the start of the Century of Blood (and possibly even before the Doom, considering he visited Volantis and Tyrosh as well, and Volantis went to war shortly after the Doom had taken place).

 

Thus, we can say that Braavos was founded no later than ~400 BC, as Harwyn Hoare was able to visit the city around 100 BC, and thus had been aware of its location. (regardless of which interpretation of “Its very existence had been a secret for a century, [..] its location had been hidden thrice that long” is correct, taking the interpretation which gives the shortest possible length ensures that all options given by the longer option are included as well).

 

So, the city was founded between ~400 BC and 1436 BC, but I was wondering whether this “possible window of time” could be made even shorter.

Does anyone have any further ideas?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I've considered the possibility of Lomas Longstrider, since he visited Braavos.

Lomas Longstrider marveled at the Titan of Braavos—the great fortress of stone and bronze in the shape of a warrior that bestrides the main entrance into the lagoon—but the true wonder is the Arsenal.

(The World of Ice & Fire, The Free Cities: Braavos)

 

Though we don’t know when Lomas lived, we know that he lived after the defeat of the Rhoynar in ~700 BC

Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru.

(The World of Ice & Fire, Ancienty History: The Long Night)

 

And before the destruction of Sarnath during the Century of Blood, as he saw its Palace With a Thousand Rooms before its destruction

Even in the Seven Kingdoms, the glory of Sarnath of the Tall Towers was celebrated, and Lomas Longstrider included the Palace With a Thousand Rooms amongst his nine Wonders Made by Man.

(The World of Ice & Fire, Beyond the Free Cities: The Grasslands)

 

I’ve been unable to further determine when Lomas lived, which means that this information does not help us much. Nor have I found anything about the age of the Titan of Braavos, or about the times when purple sails (Braavosi ships) were first sighted.

 

[Lord Wraith]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Several fan-sites state that the age of Braavos is 700 or 800 years (i.e., meaning that the city was founded in 400 or 500 BC). These statements could already be found back in 2007. However, none of those website list a reference or reasoning for the date, and I haven’t been able to find one elsewhere, either, which has made me wonder about where the date came from, and whether or not it is correct (and if so, which one of the two).

My suspicions are people have the idea that the city's location was revealed only around the time of the Doom, and that Arya's quote from A Feast for Crows (shown below) has led to the conclusion that the city was founded either two or three hundred years (depending on the interpretation of the quote) before ~100 BC, placing it's founding date in either 400 BC or 500 BC.

Braavos was a city made for secrets, a city of fogs and masks and whispers. Its very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned; its location had been hidden thrice that long.

(A Feast for Crows, Chapter 34, Cat of the Canals)

While it certainly is possible that Braavos's location became known only around the time of the Doom, it is not a confirmed fact as far as I am aware, which means that we cannot say that the city was founded only 300 or 400 years before the Doom.

 

So this thread is an attempt to most accurately figure out how old Braavos is, and between which time-points we can state with certainty that the city was founded.

 

We know that Braavos is the youngest of the nine Free Cities. This gives us a minimum, as we know a specific date for one of these cities: Lorath, founded as a Free City in 1436 BC. Thus, Braavos cannot be older than this, but is it possible to close the possible window of time for Braavos’s founding further?

 

We know that Braavos was founded before Valyria’s destruction (114 BC), after slaves revolted and sailed away on Valyrian ships that were bringing them to new colonies on the Summer Isles.

According to the tales of the Braavosi, a huge slaver fleet that had been out collecting tributes in human flesh from the lands of the Summer and Jade Seas became victim to a slave uprising instead; the success of this uprising was doubtless dependent on the fact that the Valyrians were wont to use slaves as oarsmen and even sailors, and that these men then joined the uprising. Seizing control of the fleet but realizing there was no place nearby to hide from the Freehold, the slaves instead elected to seek out some land far from Valyria and its subjects, and founded their own city in hiding.

(The World of Ice & Fire, Ancient History: Valyria’s Children)

 

Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos, who rose in a bloody rebellion, seized control of the ships on which they were being transported, and fled to "the far ends of the earth" to escape their erstwhile masters. Knowing they would be hunted, the slaves turned away from their intended destination and sailed north instead of south, seeking a refuge as far from Valyria and her vengeance as could be found. Braavosi histories claim that a group of slave women from the distant lands of the Jogos Nhai prophesied where they would find shelter: in a distant lagoon behind a wall of pine-clad hills and sea stones, where the frequent fogs would help to hide the refugees from the eyes of dragonriders passing overhead. And so it proved. These women were priestesses, called moonsingers, and to this day the Temple of the Moonsingers is the greatest in Braavos.

(The World of Ice & Fire, The Free Cities: Braavos)

 

Unfortunately, we do not know when the Valyrians established colonies in Sothoryos. Though we know that they established a colony on Basilisk Point on three occasions, these are all far too old to have been the colony in Sothoryos mentioned here, as they were all founded before the fall of the Empire of Old Ghis.

The Freehold of Valyria thrice established colonies on Basilisk Point: the first was destroyed by the Brindled Men, the second lost to plague, and the third was abandoned when the dragonlords captured Zamettar in the Fourth Ghiscari War.

(The World of Ice & Fire, Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos)

 

We know that the Doom of Valyria occurred in 114 BC, and that the Century of Blood followed the Doom. Additionally, we know this of the founding of Braavos:

[...] Thus, for more than a century, Braavos was known as the Secret City.

Sealord Uthero Zalyne put an end to that secrecy, sending forth his ships to every corner of the world to proclaim the existence and location of Braavos, and invite men of all nations to celebrate the 111th festival of the city's founding. By that time all of the original escaped slaves were dead, along with all of their former masters. Even so, Uthero had sent envoys from the Iron Bank to Valyria several years prior, to clear the way for what became known as the Uncloaking or the Unmasking of Uthero. The dragonlords proved to have little interest in the descendants of slaves who had escaped a century before, and the Iron Bank paid handsome settlements to the grandchildren of the men whose ships the founders had seized and sailed away (whilst refusing to pay for the value of the slaves themselves).

(The World of Ice & Fire, The Free Cities: Braavos)

 

With Braavos sending ships to Valyria, we can say that Braavos was founded at least 111 years before the Doom took place in 114 BC, placing Braavos’s founding no later than 225 BC.

 

Although the envoys were send out to proclaim both the existence of the city and its location, it seems they proclaimed only its existence:

Braavos was a city made for secrets, a city of fogs and masks and whispers. Its very existence had been a secret for a century, the girl had learned; its location had been hidden thrice that long.

(A Feast for Crows, Chapter 34, Cat of the Canals)

 

For centuries, the Braavosi remained hidden from the world in their remote lagoon. And even after it unveiled itself, Braavos continued to be known as the Secret City.

(The World of Ice & Fire, Ancient History: Valyria’s Children)

 

Whether Arya means to say that Braavos’s location remained a secret for three hundred years since its founding, or three hundred years since its existence was revealed has been a topic of discussion. But at least three hundred years after it was founded, Braavos’s location became known to all.

 

Braavos’s location seems to have been revealed before the start of the Century of Blood. Harwyn Hoare, the grandfather of Harren the Black, visited Braavos in his youth, presumably before his own rule began. Although we don’t know Harwyn’s age at this visit, the length of his reign, or the length of the reign of his son Halleck, we know that the reign of his grandson Harren’s lasted about forty years, and that Harwyn lived to the age of 64, making it likely that Harwyn’s visit to Braavos occurred near the start of the Century of Blood (and possibly even before the Doom, considering he visited Volantis and Tyrosh as well, and Volantis went to war shortly after the Doom had taken place).

 

Thus, we can say that Braavos was founded no later than ~400 BC, as Harwyn Hoare was able to visit the city around 100 BC, and thus had been aware of its location. (regardless of which interpretation of “Its very existence had been a secret for a century, [..] its location had been hidden thrice that long” is correct, taking the interpretation which gives the shortest possible length ensures that all options given by the longer option are included as well).

 

So, the city was founded between ~400 BC and 1436 BC, but I was wondering whether this “possible window of time” could be made even shorter.

Does anyone have any further ideas?

Got an SSM by Martin. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

Quote

Could you give us any information concerning the moonsingers that were key to the founding of Braavos?

As you know, they were slaves who fled from Valyria and they found a place as far away from Valyria that they could get. What basically happened was that a Valyrian fleet, which was rowed by slaves, was taken over by the slaves after they mutined. And they decided to get as far away to the north as they could, sailing through the narrow sea to find a refuge. The founded Braavos and kept the city secret for about a hundred years. For those first hundred years, practically no one knew of the city's existence. Because the city is founded by slaves, it's not a homogenous population, there were slaves from all sorts of different places with different ethnicities, different homelands, different customs, different religions. So they create a new religion, one with one god that can be applied to all the other fatihs and is tolerant of all the other faiths. Braavos has people of all kinds, all ethnicities and colors, so there's no standard appearance for a Braavosi because it's a conglomerate of differnet people. In the case of the Lyseni, they do have distinct ethnic features because it was a Valyrian colony: it was only and entirely Valyrian, so the Lyseni have common features with the Valyrians. It's another religion, the moonsingers, and they basically continue to follow this religion that I discussed, that's very tolerant and open. They were very important in the founding and early history of Braavos, but they still exist to this day. Beyond that, I don't expect they'll have much importance to the present story.... and where's Elio when I need him?

So the 100 years before the doom certainly seems in the ball park.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I'm pretty sure there is a quote that dates Braavos's founding as 800 years ago. I thought it was in the books, but since no one has quoted it above, I can only assume it was in an SSM from long ago. But I am convinced of its existence, because I recall knowing this BEFORE the reference was provided in Feast that Braavos's existence had been a secret for a century, and its location for another two centuries thereafter.

I recall this because we took part in a discussion on the board at one point where we tried to link the Doom to the Valyrians discovering the location of Braavos, but came up short, because the three centuries after 800 years ago brought us still one century short, to only 500 years ago, which was still 100 years before the Doom. So I ended up speculating at the time that perhaps it took the Valyrians 100 years to muster the enthusiasm to threaten Braavos after its discovery. Of course, that was disproven in the World of Ice and Fire, when we were told that the Valyrians had no interest in threatening Braavos at all.

Nevertheless, the point remains, that the date of 800 years ago for Braavos's founding was established firmly in my mind BEFORE we learnt of the 300 year delay between its founding and the revelation of its location. Somewhere there is a reference to Braavos being founded 800 years ago. Someone will recall what it is.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Got an SSM by Martin. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

So the 100 years before the doom certainly seems in the ball park.

But we already knew that the first hundred years the city was completely a secret. We learned that in Feast.

 

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm pretty sure there is a quote that dates Braavos's founding as 800 years ago. I thought it was in the books, but since no one has quoted it above, I can only assume it was in an SSM from long ago. But I am convinced of its existence, because I recall knowing this BEFORE the reference was provided in Feast that Braavos's existence had been a secret for a century, and its location for another two centuries thereafter.

I recall this because we took part in a discussion on the board at one point where we tried to link the Doom to the Valyrians discovering the location of Braavos, but came up short, because the three centuries after 800 years ago brought us still one century short, to only 500 years ago, which was still 100 years before the Doom. So I ended up speculating at the time that perhaps it took the Valyrians 100 years to muster the enthusiasm to threaten Braavos after its discovery. Of course, that was disproven in the World of Ice and Fire, when we were told that the Valyrians had no interest in threatening Braavos at all.

Nevertheless, the point remains, that the date of 800 years ago for Braavos's founding was established firmly in my mind BEFORE we learnt of the 300 year delay between its founding and the revelation of its location. Somewhere there is a reference to Braavos being founded 800 years ago. Someone will recall what it is.

I would be very much interested in that quote! Was the discussion on this forum, or another forum?

[kissdbyfire]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen, you got me curious, so I started searching... I started with the SSM Search Engine, and found one entry where it said "How old is Braavos?" from March 7, 2006, but if you click, it leads to something else and no mention of Braavos. Then I went to the SSM archives, and tried finding the entry on that date, and nothing? Now I'm even more curious, and I have no idea why I can't find this entry anywhere!

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen, you got me curious, so I started searching... I started with the SSM Search Engine, and found one entry where it said "How old is Braavos?" from March 7, 2006, but if you click, it leads to something else and no mention of Braavos. Then I went to the SSM archives, and tried finding the entry on that date, and nothing? Now I'm even more curious, and I have no idea why I can't find this entry anywhere!

 

I had that happen once with something I really, REALLY wanted to find. Don't know whether it's a tech thing or a conspiracy thing. Probably the former.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I had that happen once with something I really, REALLY wanted to find. Don't know whether it's a tech thing or a conspiracy thing. Probably the former.

Probably. But it could be the latter!

It got me thinking, is it possible that some SSMs were deleted? I would think not, but can't think of another explanation. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Probably. But it could be the latter!

It got me thinking, is it possible that some SSMs were deleted? I would think not, but can't think of another explanation. 

Only if GRRM wanted them to be deleted.

"I would have no problem with you collecting my "words" (by which I assume you mean interviews, public comments, letters, etc, rather than fiction), provided that I could ask you to pull down anything I decided I did not want up there -- misquotes, outdated info, slips of the tongue, etc."

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Only if GRRM wanted them to be deleted.

"I would have no problem with you collecting my "words" (by which I assume you mean interviews, public comments, letters, etc, rather than fiction), provided that I could ask you to pull down anything I decided I did not want up there -- misquotes, outdated info, slips of the tongue, etc."

I wonder... 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I wonder... 

[Inserting X-Files theme song]

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Only if GRRM wanted them to be deleted.

"I would have no problem with you collecting my "words" (by which I assume you mean interviews, public comments, letters, etc, rather than fiction), provided that I could ask you to pull down anything I decided I did not want up there -- misquotes, outdated info, slips of the tongue, etc."

You should list the ones GRRM wanted deleted so we fans know not to read them. Just a suggestion

[kissdbyfire]

58 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

[Inserting X-Files theme song]

(but I didn't say, "I WANT TO BELIEVE")

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

19 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Probably. But it could be the latter!

It got me thinking, is it possible that some SSMs were deleted? I would think not, but can't think of another explanation. 

I know a couple of the interviews are no longer posted on the sites that originally had them, but I don't think there's any conspiracy to them. 

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I wonder... 

Now I'm wondering about that one Daario quote that I know I read but no one seems to be able to find.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I know a couple of the interviews are no longer posted on the sites that originally had them, but I don't think there's any conspiracy to them. 

I was only joking!

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Now I'm wondering about that one Daario quote that I know I read but no one seems to be able to find.

Which one? What did it say?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was only joking!

Which one? What did it say?

The one about how "there's more to him than meets the eye." Went looking for it to use as the intro to my theory, but couldn't find it...found references to other people being unable to find it though.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The one about how "there's more to him than meets the eye." Went looking for it to use as the intro to my theory, but couldn't find it...found references to other people being unable to find it though.

Yeah, I think I remember reading that as well... Interesting. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

17 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You should list the ones GRRM wanted deleted so we fans know not to read them. Just a suggestion

If indeed there are SSMs which have been deleted, I don't know about them. Nor will I be able to list them, considering they are no longer online  

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If indeed there are SSMs which have been deleted, I don't know about them. Nor will I be able to list them, considering they are no longer online  

I'm sure. I was just pushing my (awful) joke

Like some others here, I clearly remember reading some SSM's that do not seem to exist anymore. Interesting...

 

[Nittanian]

On 3/5/2017 at 8:45 AM, kissdbyfire said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen, you got me curious, so I started searching... I started with the SSM Search Engine, and found one entry where it said "How old is Braavos?" from March 7, 2006, but if you click, it leads to something else and no mention of Braavos. Then I went to the SSM archives, and tried finding the entry on that date, and nothing? Now I'm even more curious, and I have no idea why I can't find this entry anywhere!

 

Pages on westeros.org display various info and links on the left and right panels, including a selection of some recent forum discussion threads. 

For instance, this SSM which does not mention Braavos currently displays these forum links on the right side for me:

Quote

• Lord of Light is responsible for everything
• Why are "most" of the Nobility in Westeros ignoring winter??
• What if Tyrells
• What if House Arryn declares for Aegon VI?
• Since Howland Reed knows R+L=J, how he would react to Robb's will?

The SSM search results mentioning "How old is Braavos" actually refer to this thread; the search engine finds SSM web pages mentioning Braavos even though that specific GRRM correspondence doesn't actually mention Braavos.