Howland Reed saved Ned at the ToJ by...

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thank you for pointing that out to me.

My favorite way for Howland to save Ned's life is by yelling "Hey Dayne, I knocked up your sister!"

Legit

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

I always preferred the idea that Howland threw a frog at Dayne. 

Also legit 

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And the mighty warrior freaked out? Or was that the last of poor Kermit?

Kermit the mighty died the true death 

[Jango]

Spoiler

It's safe to assume that what was shown in the show retains some truth as to what actually happened. Also, if Howland Reed went about some strange means of saving Ned at the Tower of Joy, do you really think that would be something Ned would keep from telling. Even if the story seemed absurd to tell adults, Ned still could have told the story to his children as he raised them. It would also serve as a strange sense of irony, seeing as the children would be more likely, and willing, to believe the story that Howland Reed warged into Dayne or a bird or something of the strange sort in order to save Ned, whereas the adults and more matured folk of Westeros are more bound to think Ned a liar and crazy.

 

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, Jango said:

It's safe to assume that what was shown in the show retains some truth as to what actually happened. Also, if Howland Reed went about some strange means of saving Ned at the Tower of Joy, do you really think that would be something Ned would keep from telling. Even if the story seemed absurd to tell adults, Ned still could have told the story to his children as he raised them. It would also serve as a strange sense of irony, seeing as the children would be more likely, and willing, to believe the story that Howland Reed warged into Dayne or a bird or something of the strange sort in order to save Ned, whereas the adults and more matured folk of Westeros are more bound to think Ned a liar and crazy.

No, it isn't. At all. And you shouldn't bring any of that up here btw.

And again, no, Ned wouldn't tell anyone because he doesn't talk about that ever. 

[Ygrain]

11 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

It's been pointed out before, but the traditional weapons of the Crannogmen are "frog spear" (trident), dagger, and net. These are the weapons of the retiarii gladiators, specifically intended to combat a more armoured opponent. We've seen Meera handling a direwolf...

...and we see Barristan initially thinking that a whip would be totally useless against a knight, change his opinion when seeing the wip used for immobilizing, just like the net. IMHO, the reason we got this bit is preparing the ground for the ToJ reveal.

[Jango]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, it isn't. At all. And you shouldn't bring any of that up here btw.

And again, no, Ned wouldn't tell anyone because he doesn't talk about that ever. 

Sorry about that. Went ahead and fixed it.

Even then, there's no telling whether or not Howland Reed never went off and told his children of the story or other crannogmen.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Jango said:

Sorry about that. Went ahead and fixed it.

Even then, there's no telling whether or not Howland Reed never went off and told his children of the story or other crannogmen.

Yeah, we can't be sure about what HR told or didn't tell Meera and Jojen. But Meera tells Bran that "that's another story" when he asks her about the IoF and later that "that's a sadder story" when talking about Lyanna being crowned QoLaB, plus the fact that both Meera and Jojen act very surprised when Bran tells them he hasn't heard the KolT story before. To me it points to both having been told everything - or most everything. I won't be shocked if they know about R+L=J. 

[Darkstream]

Just a thought...Mayhaps Dayne threw Dawn aside, grabbed two ordinary swords, and started twirling them around like a lame cartoon character. Reed fell over, laughing so hard at him, that Dayne died of embarrassment. 

[SFDanny]

On 2/26/2017 at 6:16 PM, kissdbyfire said:

skinchanging into Dayne.

An old theory and a good one. Look up "superwarg" and if you can access the very old threads you will see lots of discussion.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

14 hours ago, Jango said:

  Hide contents

It's safe to assume that what was shown in the show retains some truth as to what actually happened. Also, if Howland Reed went about some strange means of saving Ned at the Tower of Joy, do you really think that would be something Ned would keep from telling. Even if the story seemed absurd to tell adults, Ned still could have told the story to his children as he raised them. It would also serve as a strange sense of irony, seeing as the children would be more likely, and willing, to believe the story that Howland Reed warged into Dayne or a bird or something of the strange sort in order to save Ned, whereas the adults and more matured folk of Westeros are more bound to think Ned a liar and crazy.

 

If we went by that, then everything Ned never thought of or spoke about in his chapters would be non-starters. Ned has a tendency to not get into his more painful memories, which is frustrating for the readers but necessary for the author who doesn't want Ned and his memories spoiling all the fun surprises.

Spoiler

As to the show...we have no description of Arthur Dayne but we've never heard of him using two swords at a time, they failed to have the third KG at all, they failed to have them in their white KG armor, and they got Dawn completely wrong. While the broad strokes may certainly be true (they fight, Ned and Howland survive, Lyanna had Jon and died, and there's a Dornishwoman there) the show has never been above taking liberties with everything from minor details to entire characters and subplots.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Just a thought...Mayhaps Dayne threw Dawn aside, grabbed two ordinary swords, and started twirling them around like a lame cartoon character. Reed fell over, laughing so hard at him, that Dayne died of embarrassment. 

That would be good, but I'm not sure how well it would play on the page. It's really more of a visual gag.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Just a thought...Mayhaps Dayne threw Dawn aside, grabbed two ordinary swords, and started twirling them around like a lame cartoon character. Reed fell over, laughing so hard at him, that Dayne died of embarrassment. 

Totally accurate.

[kissdbyfire]

42 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

An old theory and a good one. Look up "superwarg" and if you can access the very old threads you will see lots of discussion.

Really? Interesting! All I get with superwarg is a thread about Arya, and it's not that old, 2012.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Just a thought...Mayhaps Dayne threw Dawn aside, grabbed two ordinary swords, and started twirling them around like a lame cartoon character. Reed fell over, laughing so hard at him, that Dayne died of embarrassment. 

 

[DigUpHerBones]

the Daynes, for all purposes, should LOATH Ned.

he killed the SoM. did not even attempt to court Ashara, and then after returning Dawn, she jumps off a cliff as a result of all those factors, per the story.

but rather than put out a bounty, they (we don't who, exactly) name their only son and heir to Starfall after Ned Stark.

the whole situation is very confusing.

I take Ned's account of the events with a grain of salt.

he was f*cked up on milk of poppy, and Howland obviously used some sort of magic to cloud his memory, the dude can move his castle at will, after all.

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, DigUpHerBones said:

the Daynes, for all purposes, should LOATH Ned.

he killed the SoM. did not even attempt to court Ashara, and then after returning Dawn, she jumps off a cliff as a result of all those factors, per the story.

but rather than put out a bounty, they (we don't who, exactly) name their only son and heir to Starfall after Ned Stark.

the whole situation is very confusing.

I take Ned's account of the events with a grain of salt.

he was f*cked up on milk of poppy, and Howland obviously used some sort of magic to cloud his memory, the dude can move his castle at will, after all.

 

 

Well, to be precise, the Daynes didn't exactly name their boy after Ned since one is Eddard and the other Edric. But do share the nickname Ned, and I don't think they'd use that if they had problems with Ned. 

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Really? Interesting! All I get with superwarg is a thread about Arya, and it's not that old, 2012.

It's one by Happy Ent I believe and it dates back before 2010. too much was lost in the conversion to this new system.

 

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

It's one by Happy Ent I believe and it dates back before 2010. too much was lost in the conversion to this new system.

 

I'll keep looking, maybe I'll get lucky. Cheers!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

20 hours ago, DigUpHerBones said:

the Daynes, for all purposes, should LOATH Ned.

he killed the SoM. did not even attempt to court Ashara, and then after returning Dawn, she jumps off a cliff as a result of all those factors, per the story.

but rather than put out a bounty, they (we don't who, exactly) name their only son and heir to Starfall after Ned Stark.

the whole situation is very confusing.

I take Ned's account of the events with a grain of salt.

he was f*cked up on milk of poppy, and Howland obviously used some sort of magic to cloud his memory, the dude can move his castle at will, after all.

 

 

I shall address these one at a time.

1. He killed the Sword of the Morning. Yes, to get to his sister who had been abducted and held captive for a year. And there is nothing to indicate that it was an unfair fight. Jaime said Arthur could kill five of the current crop of KG with his left hand while taking a piss with his right. Whatever happened there, Arthur was well able to have killed Ned, Howland, and at least two of the other Northmen while on a bathroom break. Killing him was an accomplishment in a way, and technically part of the war. It wasn't a stupid fight over a horse. It wasn't like Ned threw a spear at him from behind. It was just what it was. A lot of good men killed a lot of good men during that war. No need for a grudge.

2. Did not even attempt to court Ashara. You're accusing Ned of friend-zoning a girl? What the heck? Ned is not required to court Ashara or anyone else. There's zero evidence he was the guy who dishonored her, heck he didn't even have the balls to ask her to dance. The info about them supposedly being in love is third-hand at best, and given by someone who wasn't even born until years later.

3. The suicide. Nobody knows why she jumped. In fact nobody knows if she jumped. Again, we have only second or third-hand info at best. No suicide note. No eye witness reports. No body. In real life that's called a tragedy. In fiction it's called a plant. The entire story is fishy.

4. They name their only son and heir after Ned Stark. Edric is not Eddard. The fact that the nickname for both is Ned does not mean that Edric was named after Eddard. There could be Edrics all the way back 10,000 years in the Dayne family history. They've also had a Samwell, a Davos, and a Joffrey. No conspiracy theories there. Though it's fun to think that Samwell Tarly might be distantly descended* from The Starfire who sacked Oldtown.

5. Howland obviously used some sort of magic to cloud his memory. Uh...obvious how? That's not typical crannogs magic. We don't know that Howland moves his castle, that could have been set in motion hundreds of years ago by a previous Reed or a CotF. And I would say milk of the poppy is plenty to cloud Ned's memory. 

I do agree that the situation is somewhat confusing, and we need more info. GRRM has been dangling the Daynes in front of us from book one.

 

* this is my brain on fibro fog--meant to write either distantly related to or descended from, and brain smashed the two together.

[SFDanny]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'll keep looking, maybe I'll get lucky. Cheers!

I did a google search for "superwarg" and found this entry from 2005. I didn't know it was that old as I'm only here from 2007. Also note that this refers to the theory as old then, and @Happy Ent doesn't claim it is his, if I read it correctly. I'd send him a private message if you want more information.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I did a google search for "superwarg" and found this entry from 2005. I didn't know it was that old as I'm only here from 2007. Also note that this refers to the theory as old then, and @Happy Ent doesn't claim it is his, if I read it correctly. I'd send him a private message if you want more information.

Thank you!

Last night I found an old-ish thread (2011) where this is discussed. I haven't read it yet, but saw that you and @Happy Ent posted there, and I'll check it out also.

here: