Gamergaters Please attempt to claim this isn't objectification

[mormont]

37 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Define irrational inconsistency. To me the inconsistency appears quite rational.

Not in this case, no. It's a classic case of whataboutism, or whataboutery as it was known when constantly deployed in the Troubles. It's an attempt to deflect by going 'look, over there!'

Sure, some films are pornographic, and some books are too. But the fact is, video games are a different case. They are a younger and less diverse art form, one where not just a subset but many of the highest-profile examples have a serious problem with the depiction of women, one that is linked to a culture that has historically dominated the form.

So yeah. Classic case of whataboutery. But DM knew that when he said it, and knows it still.

[mormont]

37 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Define irrational inconsistency. To me the inconsistency appears quite rational.

Not in this case, no. It's a classic case of whataboutism, or whataboutery as it was known when constantly deployed in the Troubles. It's an attempt to deflect by going 'look, over there!'

Sure, some films are pornographic, and some books are too. But the fact is, video games are a different case. They are a younger and less diverse art form, one where not just a subset but many of the highest-profile examples have a serious problem with the depiction of women, one that is linked to a culture that has historically dominated the form.

So yeah. Classic case of whataboutery. But DM knew that when he said it, and knows it still.

[DunderMifflin]

 Not in this case = meaning becomes irrelevant when I believe something.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

19 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

 Not in this case = meaning becomes irrelevant when I believe something.

Which seems to be the way you approach discourse more often than not. 

[DunderMifflin]

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Which seems to be the way you approach discourse more often than not. 

Of course, and others are are not shy to disagree with me when I do it.

And of course you should realize that "disagree with me" is putting it mildly.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, DunderMifflin said:

Of course, and others are are not shy to disagree with me when I do it.

I'm not saying, I'm "jus sayin".

[DunderMifflin]

8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Which seems to be the way you approach discourse more often than not. 

Also...........^^^Soviet propaganda whataboutism right there

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Also...........^^^Soviet propaganda whataboutism right there

I'd be more inclined to define it as demonstrative fact, but whatever floats your boat.

[DunderMifflin]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'd be more inclined to define it as demonstrative fact, but whatever floats your boat.

Now the pot that decides things for himself accuses kettle of deciding things for itself.

and holy fuck I'm like super criminal today. I just objectified both of us by reducing us to pots and kettles.

I'm a cauldron of evil -- fuck I just did it to myself!!!! I'm not a cauldron!!! 

[all swedes are racist]

23 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'd be more inclined to define it as demonstrative fact, but whatever floats your boat.

that's my wife you're talking about

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, r'hllor's reformed lobster said:

that's my wife you're talking about

Lulz. Apologies. 

[Werthead]

 

Quote

 

Whatever side that complained about female video game characters won big time, they should stop complaining. 

Video games now have FAR more restrictions and taboos for what they are allowed to do with a female character than ANY other entertainment medium and it's not even close.

The results of those campaigns have left us nothing but boring and lifeless female video game characters with zero personality. But hey, the complainers got what they wanted, victory on them.

 

Is your contention that recent video games don't have memorable female characters?

Overwatch has done pretty well with a large roster of female characters with greatly varying personalities. The Witcher 3 (after two highly problematic games in this regard) seems to have been applauded for its treatment of Ciri (and to some extent Yennefer) as female characters. Female Shepard is pretty much canon at this point (and Liara, Tali and Jack are very well-regarded, Miranda and Ashley a bit less so, although Ashley has her fans for being a more "difficult" character). Ellie in The Last of Us is very popular, as is Clementine from The Walking Dead Telltale series. Bayonetta is a character who has had a strong critical reception despite her "sexy" appearance, and the new Lara Croft from the reboot games is certainly a more layered character than the original.

If anything, the depiction of female characters in video games has come on quite a way in the last few years,

[Xray the Enforcer]

8 hours ago, Yagathai said:

This one's my fault, guys. Sorry.

REPENT

[DunderMifflin]

33 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 

Is your contention that recent video games don't have memorable female characters?

Overwatch has done pretty well with a large roster of female characters with greatly varying personalities. The Witcher 3 (after two highly problematic games in this regard) seems to have been applauded for its treatment of Ciri (and to some extent Yennefer) as female characters. Female Shepard is pretty much canon at this point (and Liara, Tali and Jack are very well-regarded, Miranda and Ashley a bit less so, although Ashley has her fans for being a more "difficult" character). Ellie in The Last of Us is very popular, as is Clementine from The Walking Dead Telltale series. Bayonetta is a character who has had a strong critical reception despite her "sexy" appearance, and the new Lara Croft from the reboot games is certainly a more layered character than the original.

If anything, the depiction of female characters in video games has come on quite a way in the last few years,

Actually the champion of female roles in video games Anita Sarkeesian had plenty of complaints about the nasty sexist creators of Witcher 3 and Overwatch and The Last of Us and Mass Effect and every other game. 

Most of  those games are before the timeline I'm talking about anyway. I look back at them as a golden era of female game characters .

 

[Liver and Onions]

Video games have had good female characters for a long time. Often they don't get treated well by their creators or the narrative. They get screwed out of character development, stuffed in some insulting and inappropriate outfit, or treated as a prize to be stolen by the villain and recovered by the hero. Some of the more recent developers have taken the time to correct such mistakes, but there's still a ways to go because these tropes are so entrenched in culture. 

I've watched some of Anita Sarkeesian's videos, and I think she had some good points, even if I don't agree with everything she says. There are some gamers who think she's there to spoil their fun and take away their toys. I always say, if the game/book/comic/show/movie/story isn't going to be "good" anymore when you take out the misogyny, racism, homophobia, what-have-you, then what was "good" about it in the first place? 

[DunderMifflin]

7 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

Video games have had good female characters for a long time. Often they don't get treated well by their creators or the narrative. They get screwed out of character development, stuffed in some insulting and inappropriate outfit, or treated as a prize to be stolen by the villain and recovered by the hero. Some of the more recent developers have taken the time to correct such mistakes, but there's still a ways to go because these tropes are so entrenched in culture. 

I've watched some of Anita Sarkeesian's videos, and I think she had some good points, even if I don't agree with everything she says. There are some gamers who think she's there to spoil their fun and take away their toys. I always say, if the game/book/comic/show/movie/story isn't going to be "good" anymore when you take out the misogyny, racism, homophobia, what-have-you, then what was "good" about it in the first place? 

It's "good" because her criticisms extend to EVERYTHING. It doesn't matter what you do (outside of making a completely boring female character with zero personality or anything interesting)  she can and will find sexism and mysogyny. That's why games were already "good" before her shit videos. 

[Liver and Onions]

Just now, DunderMifflin said:

It's "good" because her criticisms extend to EVERYTHING. It doesn't matter what you do she can and will find sexism and mysogyny. That's why the games were already "good" before her shit videos. 

Sexism and misogyny are quite insidious that way. And sometimes you have to pick your battles. There are plenty of things (books, shows, movies, games) that have sexist elements that I still enjoy. I just recognize the bad stuff and move on. I agree that if you pick everything apart, you're left with just the problems. Some people can't enjoy something once they see the flaws, others can. It's like a movie you know is bad but you enjoy watching anyway. 

To be fair, I've been critiquing sexism in video games way before Anita was making her videos, because I've been playing the games, observing the art, story and advertising, and being there for most of the 80s and 90s. Giving a female character pants that any sane person would wear when engaging in combat isn't going to ruin a game. 

[DunderMifflin]

14 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

Sexism and misogyny are quite insidious that way. And sometimes you have to pick your battles. There are plenty of things (books, shows, movies, games) that have sexist elements that I still enjoy. I just recognize the bad stuff and move on. I agree that if you pick everything apart, you're left with just the problems. Some people can't enjoy something once they see the flaws, others can. It's like a movie you know is bad but you enjoy watching anyway. 

To be fair, I've been critiquing sexism in video games way before Anita was making her videos, because I've been playing the games, observing the art, story and advertising, and being there for most of the 80s and 90s. Giving a female character pants that any sane person would wear when engaging in combat isn't going to ruin a game. 

Content analysis is fine but you need some sort of formal method to analyze the content and adherence to scientific method in order for them to be taken seriously as proof of something. Sarkeesian does not of that, her videos are just catch all criticism and shoddy dot connecting so that everything fits her desired outcome. She should submit her work to scientific journals for peer review if she's so certain she's "called out" the sexism. But she won't do that because her nonsense would be ripped to shreds as it absolutely deserves to be.

[Squab]

14 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

It's "good" because her criticisms extend to EVERYTHING. It doesn't matter what you do (outside of making a completely boring female character with zero personality or anything interesting)  she can and will find sexism and mysogyny. That's why games were already "good" before her shit videos. 

"Everything is sexist, everything is racist, everything is homophobic" - Anita Sarkeesian, 2015 FODI

I find it comforting modern feminists (such as AS) have joined forces with prominent thinkers of our time, like Jack Thompson, to help protect us from the harmful images and ideas found in these fantasy escapes.

I would expect this whole thread should be considered problematic for the Objectum Sexuality community who have struggled for acceptance and whose views are rarely considered in these topics. If someone is able to marry the Eiffel tower in real life then how is the marriage of a CGI battleship (no matter what it looks like) any different.

I think maybe Anita didn't go far enough and everything is problematic, although implied, maybe needed to be stated outright.

[DunderMifflin]

7 minutes ago, Squab said:

"Everything is sexist, everything is racist, everything is homophobic" - Anita Sarkeesian, 2015 FODI

I find it comforting modern feminists (such as AS) have joined forces with prominent thinkers of our time, like Jack Thompson, to help protect us from the harmful images and ideas found in these fantasy escapes.

I would expect this whole thread should be considered problematic for the Objectum Sexuality community who have struggled for acceptance and whose views are rarely considered in these topics. If someone is able to marry the Eiffel tower in real life then how is the marriage of a CGI battleship (no matter what it looks like) any different.

I think maybe Anita didn't go far enough and everything is problematic, although implied, maybe needed to be stated outright.

Thankfully I think most people have cooled off on treating Anita as some sort of relevant feminist and realizing she's just another youtuber trying to make a buck. Im not a big supporter of modern feminism but even I was offended when she was getting recognition as a leading feminist for her trivial nonsense, when there are literally millions of feminists actually putting in real work.