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Is anyone else growing less and less convinced of r+l=j, as the re-read goes on...

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8 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The Kingsguard knew everything that had happened when Ned found them. They knew about Rhaegar's death, they knew about the Sack of King's Landing, the death of Aerys and even though it's not something that's mentioned, I'm assuming they would have known of the brutal murders of Rhaenys and Aegon. 

There's a very good chance they passed the information on to Lyanna.

Thanks, I'd forgotten that wee detail - so Lyanna would have good cause to be fearful, then.

8 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And the show you mentioned is so so very bad!

I wouldn't know, I don't watch TV - the name just caught my eye whilst googling :thumbsup:

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4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I absolutely agree Robert is capable of killing Rhaegar's child - but is his protested love for Lyanna enough to hold him back from killing Lyanna's child? On reflection, I don't think it is. He strikes me as one of those 'If I can't have...' types. His obsession with Lyanna is almost as unhealthy as his obsession with Rhaegar, just in the opposite direction. We as readers see that with the benefit of 15 years hindsight, but is Lyanna really that well acquainted with Robert?

1. I agree on Robert.

2. Lyanna seems to have the measure of Robert pretty well when she says he'll never keep to one bed and that love doesn't change people--she's only about 14 when she says it, but it seems pretty astute. Seems like there's a chance she's picked up on Robert's nature.

Plus--she's likely heard the news from King's Landing about the babies.

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

You know, I'm beginning to get 'Helen of Troy' vibes around this part of the story - which in different versions has either Paris abducting and raping Helen, or the pair eloping. Unfortunately, the endings are so many and varied it's hard to guess which version might give us a clue...

Yup! The exact dilemma we're given right at the start of the books. Nothing subtle about it.

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7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I agree that R+L=J would be an absolute bombshell for Robert, and dangerous for a few more reasons beside. Even so, I don't think Robert would take kindly to A+L=J, ?+L=J or even ?+L=? either.

I agree that Robert wouldn't take kindly to any child of Lyanna's by another man, but with R+L=J, there is one huge difference: the child is Rhaegar's heir and has a claim to the throne, which many might be willing to back. If it became known that Ned Stark had Rhaegar's son, Robert could order him to surrender the child for the good of the realm, could even rally his vassals against the Starks, and would find backing for this as the child would be perceived as a threat to the stability of the realm. Whereas, if Robert wanted to off any other man's child, he has absolutely no grounds to do so, no support in the realm. Denounce Starks as traitors because they are raising Arthur Dayne's son? Seriously? 

7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Because of the blood, I've always assumed that Lyanna had actually died in childbirth - though the reference to fever might suggest a different cause :dunno: Could be an infection following a haemorrhage?

Later on, it is specified that the promise to Lyanna was made when she was in her bed of blood, which is birthing bed. It doesn't rule out post-birthing complications, which would involve both haemorrhaging as well as fever (most likely, childbed fever).

7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

However, that's not what I wanted to look at here - rather the fear in Lyanna's eyes. I don't think it was fear of dying - she was still dying after Ned's promise - and I doubt she really needed to extract a promise for her remains to be returned to Winterfell, so that was also an unlikely cause for her fear that could be promised away. That really only leaves her child - even on her deathbed she could fear for her child, and be reassured by a promise. Now, I don't think - now that Ned had arrived - that she feared Jon would just be abandoned or neglected. What we know of Ned suggests he's going to look after that baby one way or another, no need to promise that. So that promise needs to be something over and above the basic provision of care and shelter. Protection, anonymity, secrecy - all would fit as promises that could relieve Lyanna's fear, and I think we're being led to connect that to Ned's 'dangerous secrets'.

When Ned ponders all the occasions involving murders or attempts on children in which Robert closed his eyes, it is stated:

 He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

Sansa was pleading with him to save Lady: stop them, don't let them do it, she's innocent. Lyanna may not have been pleading with these exact words, but the idea would be the same, to protect her innocent child, not to allow anyone harm him.

Also, Lyanna's relief parallels that of Barra's mother when Ned promises to take care of the girl.

7 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

So, regardless of any calculations Ned may have made about what he could tell Robert, or Cat, or the world at large, Lyanna herself knew of the danger to Jon. Did Ned have time (or inclination) to tell her that Robert had taken the throne? We don't know, and of course it's possible the news arrived by some other route. Assume she knew; assume also she knew the father was dead - again, it looks like she has far more cause to fear for Rhaegar's son than for Arthur's.

Either Ned brought the news, or the news had reached ToJ prior his arrival. I am leaning towards the latter, as it allows for interesting possibilities in who knew what and from what source, with incomplete information possibly leading to the tragical fight.

 

4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The Kingsguard knew everything that had happened when Ned found them. They knew about Rhaegar's death, they knew about the Sack of King's Landing, the death of Aerys and even though it's not something that's mentioned, I'm assuming they would have known of the brutal murders of Rhaenys and Aegon. 

There's a very good chance they passed the information on to Lyanna.

To play a bit of devil's advocate: we don't know when they learned. We can only be sure that their choice to fight was a well-informed decision and they knew exactly what and why they were doing. 

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4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And the show you mentioned is so so very bad!

Should I be glad I never watched it? I love Greek mythology and the way it is being butchered these days is almost as bad as the way the Athurian legend is being butchered.

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On 9/6/2018 at 2:54 AM, dmfn said:

The fact that Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar in years is just as strange as him not dwelling on Ashara (to me)

Well it's certainly not an idiotic mistake, its an honest mistake and doesn't deserve to be bashed like that.

Rhaegar being talked about as such a good guy all because Eddard doubts Rhaegar visited brothels is comical, considering this 22 year old insults his wife for a 14 year old girl he literally just met and couldn't have spent too much time with, that he supposedly kidnaps and gets with child. Hmmmm. I guess being a "good guy" is low bar to set. Shrugs

I guess when a girl steals another woman's man, she really believes this man believes in the concept of love and marriage. What's that saying? Once a cheater, always a cheater? 

What possible grounds could Rhaegar get an annulment for any ways? Elia was faithful, honorable, and provided him an heir. 

Rhaegar is a douche in this scenario imo, with very little honor. 

Edit- At least your husband isn't likely to run away with a prostitute. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Sorry, im still laughing. We can trust Rhaegar to not visit brothels, but keep him away from your underage sister hahahahaha even if the guy was not married, definitely not a friend i want around lol 

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27 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well it's certainly not an idiotic mistake, its an honest mistake and doesn't deserve to be bashed like that.

Rhaegar being talked about as such a good guy all because Eddard doubts Rhaegar visited brothels is comical, considering this 22 year old insults his wife for a 14 year old girl he literally just met and couldn't have spent too much time with, that he supposedly kidnaps and gets with child. Hmmmm. I guess being a "good guy" is low bar to set. Shrugs

I guess when a girl steals another woman's man, she really believes this man believes in the concept of love and marriage. What's that saying? Once a cheater, always a cheater? 

What possible grounds could Rhaegar get an annulment for any ways? Elia was faithful, honorable, and provided him an heir. 

Rhaegar is a douche in this scenario imo, with very little honor. 

Edit- At least your husband isn't likely to run away with a prostitute. 

One of the thing I always found interesting (and I assume will keep happening in the books) is the way we put this halo around certain idols. It seems most people talked about how great of a guy Rhaegar was and how well liked he was, etc, etc. When in truth, probably wasn't that great of a guy ha. 

Especially if in the books he ends up doing what he did to Elia in the show.

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Personally, if Rhaegar had an older brother, i think Rhaegar would have been plenty happy to become a Maester or something and swear vows of chastity if you know what i mean. Maybe join the K.G. with his buddy Arthur, maybe elope with Jon Connington, or, i mean, become his maester. You know, like how Loras became a Rainbow Guard (KG) to Renly. 

The only thing that makes me question this otherwise (and Lyanna certainly doesn't), is the question of; who was Rhaegar going to crown Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal before meeting Lyanna?

Was it Elia?

Or could it have been some one else at Harrenhal, who was dishonored at Harrenhal and supposedly killed her self at the end of the war for the loss of the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal. 

We know Brandon died at the Start of the War, and Ashara would have known this. And there is Baristans comment on Dany and Ashara

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2 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

One of the thing I always found interesting (and I assume will keep happening in the books) is the way we put this halo around certain idols. It seems most people talked about how great of a guy Rhaegar was and how well liked he was, etc, etc. When in truth, probably wasn't that great of a guy ha. 

Especially if in the books he ends up doing what he did to Elia in the show.

Agreed. Then plotting to over throw your father. We still havn't been told what Rhaegar did when Duskendale happened. We know Tywin responded and sent in Barristan. That's it. Yet Aerys walks away from it distrusting Rheagar. Who indeed was using Harrenhal as a pretense to meet with lords to over throw his father, till Varys saved Aerys (Not the only time he looks out for Aerys) and informed him. Destroying Rhaegar's plan. 

What would have happened had Aerys and Lyanna never showed up? What was his plan? 

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Mance Rayder, a Night's watch member with closer proximity to Lyanna, who mayyyyyy have been the Black Brother at Harrenhal, who's tradition involves giving a blue rose and stealing a bride, and is unmarried, anddddddddd currently involved in Jon Snow's life, a much likelier figure for Lyanna Stark to fall in love with. Certainly has more honor thus far than Rhaegar, who's traditions dont involve bride stealing and giving blue roses. 

Unless Bael is a Valyrian and known to Rhaegar for some odd reason.... (shrugs)

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2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

One of the thing I always found interesting (and I assume will keep happening in the books) is the way we put this halo around certain idols. It seems most people talked about how great of a guy Rhaegar was and how well liked he was, etc, etc. When in truth, probably wasn't that great of a guy ha. 

Especially if in the books he ends up doing what he did to Elia in the show.

His fighting skills seem to be overrated. It's discussed how great of a knight Rhaegar is... and he gets his chest smashed by a dude with a hammer. 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

His fighting skills seem to be overrated. It's discussed how great of a knight Rhaegar is... and he gets his chest smashed by a dude with a hammer. 

Well, if Roberts hammer has a spike on the opposite side (as usually they would for a war weapon), would stand better odds of getting through Rhaegars armor than Rhaegars sword getting through Roberts.

Any advantage Rhaegar may have had in fast foot work and speed at dodging are negated a bit by slogging around in the river. His best bet at that point really is getting close past Roberts range with the hammer and pull a dirk, but have fun with that. Roberts a big boy with likely further arm reach than Rhaegar had. Last thing Rhaegar wants to do his physically wrestle or slug it out with Robert. Robert would crush him. 

Definitely a bawdy choice of weapon on Roberts part though for sure. 

Though i've wondered why the Targaryen's didn't bring any armor with them from Valyria. Just two swords. Seems odd. The steel must have been rare even to them.

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On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:15 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Well it's certainly not an idiotic mistake, its an honest mistake and doesn't deserve to be bashed like that.

Rhaegar being talked about as such a good guy all because Eddard doubts Rhaegar visited brothels is comical, considering this 22 year old insults his wife for a 14 year old girl he literally just met and couldn't have spent too much time with, that he supposedly kidnaps and gets with child. Hmmmm. I guess being a "good guy" is low bar to set. Shrugs

I guess when a girl steals another woman's man, she really believes this man believes in the concept of love and marriage. What's that saying? Once a cheater, always a cheater? 

What possible grounds could Rhaegar get an annulment for any ways? Elia was faithful, honorable, and provided him an heir. 

Rhaegar is a douche in this scenario imo, with very little honor. 

Edit- At least your husband isn't likely to run away with a prostitute. 

This is assuming that Rhaegar had anything to do with Lyanna's abduction or was with her at any time during her captivity. The only reason all of this has been pinned on Rhaegar is that some unknown person rode up to Brandon and told him that this was all Rhaegar's doing. But there is really no evidence that he was involved at all.

 

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37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

This is assuming that Rhaegar had anything to do with Lyanna's abduction or was with her at any time during her captivity. The only reason all of this has been pinned on Rhaegar is that some unknown person rode up to Brandon and told him that this was all Rhaegar's doing. But there is really no evidence that he was involved at all.

 

Agree, this is only if Rhaegar actually did like her like that (After what, an hour together? Can't imagine they hung out long before Rhaegar had to get back to the Tourney events), and kidnapped her.

I dont think Ashara's dishonoring had to do with her being raped though and had more to do with the giving of the Flower that caused her to "look to Stark", the woman being given the rose, she was supposed to get. Hence the "grief over the loss of the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal". 

Brandon and Ashara can't have had Dany, there's no time unless Ashara want's to shag in filth, stench, and with rats. 

There is only three possible father's to Ashara's child but only 2 of those was killed for Ashara to grieve over their loss. Two princes's. Prince Rhaegar, and Prince Lewyn Martell who was known to have had a mistress. Ashara Dayne also danced with a K.G. member, though i like to think that she danced with her brother. Though her dancing with Oberyn may suggest otherwise. Though, Ashara Dayne's freak out over Barristan losing, Rhaegar winning or Rhaegar crowning Lyanna suggest it's likely Rhaegar. 

There is also a song about some "Stupid lady throwing herself from a tower over the loss of a prince"

Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend, and likely knew of Rhaegar believing his son to be TPTWP and needed a third child and that Elia was unable. Ashara was lady in waiting to Elia also, and may have been designated to be the surrogate mother. Which would explain Elia's calm response at Harrenhal. (I dont think Aegon was born after Harrenhal or else it makes Rheagar and even bigger douche, at least if Aegon was born before hand, then Rhaegar went to Harrenhal knowing he needed a third child. Something so on his mind, that it has consumed his thought's since he was a child and reading something that led him to become a warrior. Something possibly worth more to Rhaegar than usurping his father.) 

Which would explain Ashara being the one originally intended to be given the rose, hence her dishonor. 

There would be no Rhaegar cheating on his wife, no annulment's you have no reasonable grounds for. None of that which goes against Rhaegar being the decent person we've been told about. 

Plus, we have no idea what or how House Dayne feel's about TPTWP legend. They are likely familiar at least with the Legend of the Last Hero i would think. They also happen to have the rarest sword in all of Planetos that we've seen (There are more swords of the Others that we see in the prologue to AGOT), that only goes to the worthiest member of their house.  

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Aemon the Dragon Knight, i imagine avoided offending the woman he originally wanted to crown by crowning his sister to save her honor from Aegon IV. Though, as rumor spread that Aemon and his sister had a thing, i imagine his "Crush" was likely as offended by the giving of the rose to Naerys as Ashara was to Lyanna getting her's. 

Edit- 

If Loras could've given the rose to his "Crush" instead of Sansa Stark, i imagine he would have too. I wonder if Renly got catty over Loras and his rose to Sansa.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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The Tourney of Harrenhal mirrors the Tourney of the Hand in more ways than one.

Rhaegar wears black armor with Red Rubies while giving a Blue Rose to a Stark that he may not have even liked.

Loras wears Silver Armor with Blue Saphires while giving a Red Rose to a Stark that he definitely did not like.

Both Starks maids are taken, and in the case of Sansa, she was taken by neither participants of the Tourney. Rather, by a spectator in the crowd, Peter Baelish. 

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On 8/19/2017 at 5:26 AM, Obsidian Knight said:

Jon is Rheagar's son and that's why it must be secret. His best friend Robert would kill the child. He's famous for his temper.

Ned isn't apparently worried enough to send Jon away from Winterfell when Robert visits. If he truly fears for Jon's safety from Robert, this lack of action doesn't make much sense.

On 8/19/2017 at 5:26 AM, Obsidian Knight said:

Also the direwolf. Re-reading the first book, it seemed symbolic that he gets the white wolf. Not because he's Snow but because the Targaryens are white-haired. He is Stark but he is also his father's son.

Targaryen's aren't white haired, they have silver and gold hair. White haired people in this story are Bloodraven, the Ghost of High Heart, probably the CotF Snowylock's. Tyrion and Tommen are both described as blond hair so pale it's almost white, but that's as close as it comes. Ghost's coloring clearly indicates the weirwoods, it also mimics the colors of House Blackwood. There is very little about Ghost that indicates fire or Targaryen hints. Yes, his eyes are red and burning like ho coals, but all four male direwolves have eyes that are described as burning or hot, whether their eyes are gold, red, or green.

On 4/23/2018 at 4:44 AM, Maria Maria said:

- Benjen thinks that taking the black is a bad move and then he tries to convince Jon to change his mind

Weirdly enough, Benjen first tells Jon that the Night's Watch could use a man like him, then as soon as Jon show's interest, Benjen acts like this is a terrible idea. It's odd but it could have to do with Jon's age.

On 4/23/2018 at 4:44 AM, Maria Maria said:

I don't know why, but I still think Benjen Stark is Jon's father. Always belived this.
- Benjen calls Jon "son"

This does stand out, doesn't it. But then, Jon says's "I am not your son" and Benjen's response is "more's the pity" which indicates a tacit sort of agreement with Jon. Although it could be argued that if Benjen was never allowed to claim Jon as son then this wording would still fit.

On 4/23/2018 at 4:44 AM, Maria Maria said:

And further more, regarding the incest betwin Benjen and Lyanna in the tent, at the tournament.... that will explain Ned's reaction to Cercei. Ned told Cercei she can take the cildrens and leave, just like he told Benjen he can take the black and he will keep the secret. No women and children in the NW, so no place for Cercei there.... incest/incest, banished/banished. Ned did it again.

If we are going down this route, then Rickard as well as Brandon, Ned and Benjen are candidates. It depends on how you interpret when Jon might have been born. One thing that is different is that Ned wants Cersei and her children to go to safety. If Benjen and Lyanna are parents to Jon, then Benjen and baby Jon could have been sent to exile in Essos. That would mirror Ned's plan for Cersei. Since we have no idea what Lyanna's promise entailed, the truth of it could change many interpretations.

 

On 5/18/2018 at 6:54 AM, Valyrian Lance said:

Lyanna + Arthur Dayne = Jon

Jon seems to have more Arthur Dayne imagery about him than he has Rhaegar imagery!

 

On 7/25/2018 at 9:46 PM, Mooncalf said:

One thing I get out of this saga is that your blood and where you come from means absolutely nothing. It's all about what these characters choose to do with their destiny and how they go about it.

On the idea of choosing your own destiny or path, I agree on. GRRM seems to find that very important. But there are many hints in the story that blood is important. Now, perhaps not in the true born, privileged, Lord of the castle kind of blood, but in the genetic or magic quality of your genes. I think there is something important with that. There is also a strong element of these children of bastard birth who are going to turn out to be important. Important based on what they have overcome, but perhaps because of the genetic quality that they carry.

 

On 7/26/2018 at 5:32 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Well, I for one don't think he died died, like but even if he did... he'll then find out as a zombie! :D

I don't think Jon died from his wounds at Castle Black either. I will stubbornly maintain this idea too, until GRRM publishes something to change my mind (and that might never happen at this point).

 

On 8/10/2018 at 6:53 PM, Yaya said:

i really do not believe jon snow is rheager's son. 
also - i'm not so sure that lyanna stark had a baby. 
if she did have a baby, the father was highly unlikely to be a married man.

I agree,

This is also very possible. So far her story is mirrored in Arya and Sansa, and they have both remained maidens. If Lyanna never had a child, it wouldn't surprise me.

Agree, unless she was forced into a situation where she had no choice.

 

On 8/31/2018 at 11:34 AM, Ygrain said:

He made her promises, plural, and paid a price to keep them, so she asked of him something that came at a cost on his part. 

Also:

- Lyanna's reaction to his promise is very much like Barra's mother's after he promises to take care of her child.

The connection then between Lyanna and Barra's mother is that Robert is the father of the child that Ned is promising to protect, in both cases, which is what trigger's Ned's memory. I don't necessarily believe this is the case, but I can see the implication in the text.

 

On 9/4/2018 at 11:21 PM, kleevedge said:

The fact that Lyanna is holding flowers for some reason after giving birth is strange, unless Howland Reed had taken her hand and married her.

Do women commonly hold flowers at weddings in Westeros? I don't remember that. The closet thing I came across with flowers at a wedding is that Margaery Tyrell had golden roses embroidered on her maidens's cloak. 

 

On 9/4/2018 at 11:49 PM, kleevedge said:

I would find it ironic how all this time Jon is searching for his mother but when he goes to the wall and Benjen goes missing that now he's actually actively searching for his father without even knowing it.

I agree that this is an odd implication, and we should be paying attention to these kind of details.

 

Interesting thread. I will have to catch up. 

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On 9/7/2018 at 8:17 AM, Ygrain said:

Sorry but this is yet another myth. Yes, it was a dream, yes, GRRM said that our dreams are not always literal. Doesn't mean that the elements of the dream are incorrect. Ned labels the dream as "old", i.e. he had dreamt about Lyanna, KG and ToJ before, when he was neither feverish nor drugged. Some of its elements are described "as had been in life", i.e. that really happened.

Well Jon has repetitive dreams of the crypts, and he has this dream several times before he tells Sam about it. We know Jon has been in the crypts of Winterfell, so some of his dream elements are accurate, while some might change depending on the activities in Jon's everyday world. The crypt dreams seem to evolve, so they are different but remain "the same" in some sense. For instance, when Jon is walking with a crutch in real life, he is hobbling on a crutch in his dreams. So everyday occurrences do alter a repetitive dream. As far as we know, in Jon's real life, the Kings of Winter have not grabbed swords or stumbled out of their graves. It's all twisted up together, dream and reality.

 

On 9/7/2018 at 8:17 AM, Ygrain said:

The promise, blood and roses tie to his memory of Lyanna's death in his very first PoV. - In other words, the connection between ToJ, Lyanna's death and the three KG is a real one, we just cannot rely on the details of the dream to reflect what and how really happened. We know there was a fight and it is quite safe to assume that some words were exchanged, as well, but it most likely didn't go exactly as in the dream.

Yes, the idea of promises, blood and roses are mentioned in Ned's first memory of Lyanna, but none of those things directly tie to the toj from the dream. The only thing we know about for sure is that Ned pulled a tower down with his own hands that Rhaegar apparently called the tower of joy and Ned used the stones to make eight cairns. That tower of his dream might tie to the three kingsguard in real life, and possibly even his six wraiths, but in real life he never puts Lyanna at this location. The only thing that might be accurate is a tower, three kingsguard, seven northmen, and eventually a tower coming down and turned into eight cairns. We don't have a location for the toj being in Dorne in anything but Ned's dream. I would bet money this showdown did not happen in Dorne. All Ned tells us is that Martyn Cassel is buried "far to the south".

Ned certainly has dreams, and this one has visited him before. I think some elements of Ned's dream are accurate, but I think several elements change with each dreaming, which is mirrored in Jon's crypt dreams. I doubt anyone will agree on what the differences might be until we get more story from GRRM, and who knows when that might actually be.

 

On 9/7/2018 at 8:30 PM, dmfn said:

I don't think I'm biased one way or another. I like Jon for Jon, not whoever his parents are, but I just am not convinced R+L=J.

He doesn't act like Lyanna (wolf blood).

He doesn't act like Rhaegar (singing, studying).

He looks and acts like Eddard Stark.

Yes, I very much agree! Except Jon does show a bit of that wolf's blood when he jumps on the dinner table, sprints down it like a mad man and tries to kill Alliser Thorne. But we don't really have any behavior like that to related to Lyanna. That sounds like Brandon Stark. And perhaps a bit like Ned, who also has flashes of the wolf's blood, even if he doesn't seem to see it in himself. Ned has his tempers, his red rage, his cold rage, his twisted rage, so much that this temper even frightened Cat early in their marriage. Ned is not immune to the wolfs blood, I don't think.

 

On 9/8/2018 at 12:24 AM, Ygrain said:

Since he never loved Elia and she cannot birth any more children (Aegon's birth either left her barren, or the next childbirth would kill her), he has no reason to have sex with her.

There is no reason to think that Rhaegar wasn't having sex with Elia. Sex can be had for lot's of reason besides love and/or procreation, and pregnancy can be avoided in this world. 

 

On 9/8/2018 at 12:24 AM, Ygrain said:
Quote

He doesn't act like Lyanna (wolf blood).

He defends a weaker person against attackers, just like she did. With a practice sword.

So do Grenn and Pyp!

 

On 9/8/2018 at 12:24 AM, Ygrain said:

Oh, one more point, though not from Ned's PoV: Jorah compares Dany to Rhaegar when she saves the women from rape. Not that he has any way of knowing, but clearly, in his mind, Rhaegar is not the raping type.

Rhaegar might not have been a rapist, but all this does is tie Dany to Rhaegar in my eyes. Not Jon!

 

On 9/8/2018 at 6:17 PM, Sly Wren said:

Ned fears that madness--we see that. And he's got good reason, given Robert's reaction to the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon. Maybe Robert would eventually calm down--he does calm down after getting gored by the boar and calls off the hit on Dany--though no one in the novels is saying Dany is Rhaegar's.

Robert eventually felt bad about Lady's death, and how it affected both of Ned's girls, but it took awhile for him to admit it. But even in that decision, Robert was goaded by Cersei. At this point in the story, Ned is still blind to many of Robert's faults. It's possible he always was blinded to Robert's faults. Friendship and love can do that to people. But I still don't think it's Robert that Ned fears when it comes to Jon!

 

On 9/8/2018 at 6:21 PM, Sly Wren said:

I honestly don't get why he lies to Cat no matter who Jon's father is--it hurts their marriage.

Perhaps it simply comes down to part of a promise that Ned made. And Ned's understanding of what a mother would do to protect her own children, even if it means a sacrifice of another woman's child. Catelyn is no shining paragon in this story! And she makes some terrible decisions, such as kidnapping Tyrion, or releasing Jaime to save her girls while she helps put a nail in the coffin of Robb's war effort.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 6:39 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Jon goes to the Wall because he doesn't feel he has another option. If he is a Dayne by blood, then what does it say about Ned in this situation? 

This is one of the reasons that cause me some doubt for either Arthur or Ashara to be Jon's parent. We know people in Dorne do not frown on bastards like the rest of the people in the 7K seem to. If Jon has a Dayne parent, then Jon could be sent to them at this time, and if he chose to take the black at a later time, then he could do so. Unless the Dayne's had already rejected taking Jon in, which could be possible. There is so much we don't know, and maybe never will, about the backstory.

Or to place Jon with any house in the north would be an option, such as we see with the Hornwood bastard, Laurence Snow, who is a ward of the Glover's.  This option would also have worked for Jon. 

Ned seems to see no option for Jon besides Winterfell and the Wall. Why? Ned isn't stupid! We are just missing part of this puzzle.

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, St Daga said:

This is one of the reasons that cause me some doubt for either Arthur or Ashara to be Jon's parent. We know people in Dorne do not frown on bastards like the rest of the people in the 7K seem to.

Good point, i've always like the idea better of Dany being the child of Ashara and that the lemon tree's were at Starfall or near abouts in Dorne. 

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