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Agent 326

My thoughts on the Tyrion Targaryen Theory

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Let's start of with the obvious. I hate this theory. It's campy, cheesy, stupid, doesn't fit in with the story of ASOIAF, nowhere near enough build up and it can be debunked solely by the title.

Tyrion is the Mad King's son according to this theory meaning he isn't a Targaryen, no his last name becomes either Hill or Waters. One might say that he might have been legitimized but to that I say, by whom. No Baratheon would legitimize him, Robb wouldn't, Balon or Euron wouldn't care and for Aegon and Dany he is a threat to their claim if legitimized. And no one suspected Tyrion of not being Tywin's son except Tywin.

Another reason I think people like this theory is so that Tyrion isn't a kinslayer and didn't murder his own father. Well Tyrion either way is a kinslayer because Tywin is also his second cousin. Also in the dark world of ASOIAF why would George R.R. Martin rob us of a main character killing their own father.

Also the story that we are told that a lot of people presume is about Tywin and Aerys being best of friends and by the end of the story being worst of enemies. Not about Tyrion secretly being the Mad King's bastard. It ruins the entire point of the story we are told.

Also doesn't the fact that the show cut out Tyrion's description from the book mean something to you? It means they aren't important.

One might bring up the fact that Tyrion was obsessed with Dragons when he was little but come on, he is a kid and dragons are cool from the eyes of a kid. What child wouldn't want to be able to ride a dragon.

Also the point of Tyrion's character is that he is a Lannister, not a secret Targaryen Bastard. The difference in physical description is supposed to mean that he is different.

Also Aerys is not one to be loyal to one women. He was always one to lay with however he wanted and then never again. He only stayed loyal to Rhealla (sorry if I mespelled her name).

And Tyrion is Tywin's son (I'm not speaking from the perspective that I believe that Tyrion is actually Tywin's son but you know being Your father's son, from a personality perspective), Tywin hates what he sees in Tyrion because Tywin is the same thing only Tyrion is an ugly dwarf. If Tyrion was just a bookish boy, never slept with whores, wasn't a drunk and wasn't very good from a political standpoint (not that he is or else he wouldn't be in exile, but he has made the occasional great political move, (bribing the Hill Clansmen, figuring out who was Cersei's spy by using Myrcella and Tommen marriages and fostering, putting forward the notion of Joffrey wedding Margery) but at the same time he only focused on Cersei and let Varys and Littlefinger scheme all that they wanted.

Now if you want to know my thoughts on R+L=J I think it is true and Jon is actually a Targaryen, but if he gets resurrected eventually fact that he is the rightful heir to the throne will come out, however when offered the throne he will turn it down, because he has seen the horrors of feudalism and he will change the system.

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14 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Let's start of with the obvious. I hate this theory. It's campy, cheesy, stupid, doesn't fit in with the story of ASOIAF, nowhere near enough build up and it can be debunked solely by the title.

Tyrion is the Mad King's son according to this theory meaning he isn't a Targaryen, no his last name becomes either Hill or Waters. One might say that he might have been legitimized but to that I say, by whom. No Baratheon would legitimize him, Robb wouldn't, Balon or Euron wouldn't care and for Aegon and Dany he is a threat to their claim if legitimized. And no one suspected Tyrion of not being Tywin's son except Tywin.

Another reason I think people like this theory is so that Tyrion isn't a kinslayer and didn't murder his own father. Well Tyrion either way is a kinslayer because Tywin is also his second cousin. Also in the dark world of ASOIAF why would George R.R. Martin rob us of a main character killing their own father.

Also the story that we are told that a lot of people presume is about Tywin and Aerys being best of friends and by the end of the story being worst of enemies. Not about Tyrion secretly being the Mad King's bastard. It ruins the entire point of the story we are told.

Also doesn't the fact that the show cut out Tyrion's description from the book mean something to you? It means they aren't important.

One might bring up the fact that Tyrion was obsessed with Dragons when he was little but come on, he is a kid and dragons are cool from the eyes of a kid. What child wouldn't want to be able to ride a dragon.

Also the point of Tyrion's character is that he is a Lannister, not a secret Targaryen Bastard. The difference in physical description is supposed to mean that he is different.

Also Aerys is not one to be loyal to one women. He was always one to lay with however he wanted and then never again. He only stayed loyal to Rhealla (sorry if I mespelled her name).

And Tyrion is Tywin's son (I'm not speaking from the perspective that I believe that Tyrion is actually Tywin's son but you know being Your father's son, from a personality perspective), Tywin hates what he sees in Tyrion because Tywin is the same thing only Tyrion is an ugly dwarf. If Tyrion was just a bookish boy, never slept with whores, wasn't a drunk and wasn't very good from a political standpoint (not that he is or else he wouldn't be in exile, but he has made the occasional great political move, (bribing the Hill Clansmen, figuring out who was Cersei's spy by using Myrcella and Tommen marriages and fostering, putting forward the notion of Joffrey wedding Margery) but at the same time he only focused on Cersei and let Varys and Littlefinger scheme all that they wanted.

Now if you want to know my thoughts on R+L=J I think it is true and Jon is actually a Targaryen, but if he gets resurrected eventually fact that he is the rightful heir to the throne will come out, however when offered the throne he will turn it down, because he has seen the horrors of feudalism and he will change the system.

As someone who completely and utterly believes that Tyrion is Aerys's bastard, I have to say that my motivation for that belief is none of what you spoke about above. You see, I don't like Tyrion. In fact, I can't stand him. So I have no need to see him absolved of kinslaying, or to become king, ride a dragon or be legitimized. But I still believe he is Aerys's son.

The point is that his story is a tragedy. It is not meant to be the story of the secret "prince" that is revealed at the end, to right all the wrongs that fate dealt him before that point. No, his story is the one where his father raped his mother. He is a bastard, and will never be legitimized, unless Dany does it. But it will not matter, because neither is his story an honorable one. So if he finds out his true identity, he will quite happily still rule Casterly Rock as Tywin's last remaining heir, and simply keep the secret of his true identity. He will still be a Lannister, since his mother was a Lannister by birth too. Just not the real heir to Casterly Rock. But he will claim it anyway.

Sure, it will let him ride a dragon, I guess, but I have never seen the ability to ride a dragon as being the ultimate aspiration that a character could have in this story. Some treat it as the greatest reward possible. I view it as far less so. There were some rather minor dragonriders in the past. George kind of made it lose its speciality when he introduced all those dragonseeds during the Dance. Who wants to be just a sidekick to the Mother of Dragons. Let Tyrion have it, I say.

As for his story with Tywin. Him being the son of Aerys makes it even more complicated and ironic. Because Tywin is forced to admit that the son who most resembled him in personality, was actually the son of the man he hated most. The man who raped his wife and made him raise a bastard child. A bastard child who ended up becoming his heir.

Anyway, I think Tyrion is Aerys's son. It will fit his ugly, dishonorable, uncomfortable and messy life story rather brilliantly.

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I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but we have been told specifically that Aerys lusted after Joanna. So we're being led to suspect the parentage of the twins, or Tyrion, or all of them. If it's just the twins, then Tywin had only one child in a long and loving marriage. Did he have fertility problems? So did he have any children at all? Or maybe fantasy genetics apply, and Tyrion's mismatched eyes are meant to suggest he's some sort of chimera with two fathers. We'll never know.

Anyway, there's more to it than childish dreams.

Fire is the champion of the Targs, and Tyrion uses it to extremes in his defence of King's Landing - he burns the countryside beforehand, and fills the battlefield with wildfire. He is not afraid himself, and fights like a hero.

At the other end of the scale, he really likes hot, spicy food - he goes to all the trouble of bringing his own pepper on the trip to the Wall. Compare that with Dany and her preference for spicy perfumes.

Finally, he has made himself an expert on dragon lore, which is not easy considering how rare knowledge of dragons is in these times. That speaks of quite an obsession continuing though his adult years.

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I hate this theory, too.
It ignores the complex relationship between Tyrion and Tywin, specially the "shame" part.
Also, there is this strong quote:

 

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

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Nobody ever said that Tyrion would be a Targaryen if he was Aerys' son. He would be Aerys' bastard, a Targaryen bastard.

And that's what he is, most likely.

But unless people actually end up believing this story he will remain Tyrion Lannister. Tywin acknowledged him, after all, just as Eddard Stark acknowledged Jon Snow as his son, and Robert Baratheon Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen as his children.

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For one, it wouldn't take away from any of his story. I mean, a dad hating his dwarf son, being ki;led by him, and then turning out to not even be his son? Poetic.

 

For two, who cares. Tyrion's a beast, and the most fun POV to read. Any twists and turns will be fun, and a lack of them will be fine, too. He's just awesome, regardless of whether or not you LIKE him. 

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3 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

Let's start of with the obvious. I hate this theory. It's campy, cheesy, stupid, doesn't fit in with the story of ASOIAF, nowhere near enough build up and it can be debunked solely by the title.

Done in 3 sentences.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody ever said that Tyrion would be a Targaryen if he was Aerys' son. He would be Aerys' bastard, a Targaryen bastard.

And that's what he is, most likely.

But unless people actually end up believing this story he will remain Tyrion Lannister. Tywin acknowledged him, after all, just as Eddard Stark acknowledged Jon Snow as his son, and Robert Baratheon Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen as his children.

No one, and I mean no one, cares a whit about Tyrion's "last name" with respect to this theory.  People who desperately want Tyrion to be a Targ will call him a targ no matter what if it's revealed Aerys is his father. Those of us with our heads on straight -- B) -- will continue to lampoon this crackpot theory and call him by his genetically and legally correct last name.

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It is about as obvious that Tyrion will turn out to be Aerys' bastard as it is that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son. Those are mirrored story lines. Jon is the alleged bastard who might be (sort of) of legitimate birth, and Tyrion is the trueborn son of his father who will turn out to be a bastard. The seeds for this are there in the very conversation on bastardy and legitimate birth Tyrion and Jon have in AGoT.

Jon also has a complex relationship with his 'father' and extended family that will get a new basis when the truth is revealed. Nobody complains about that. Because people expect some sort of revelation about Jon's mother and parentage.

Tywin is dead. And despite him being dead George continues to fuck him by revealing stuff about him and changing the picture we originally had of the man. We got the stench of his corpse, his ridiculous smile, his secret smile in AFfC, and his laughter in TWoIaF. 

Tywin remains as much a character of this series as a Rhaegar and Lyanna and Aerys. We get constantly new pieces of information on those people and that's going to continue.until the very end.

Tyrion only can become a dragonrider if he has Targaryen blood. If Tyrion doesn't become a dragonrider he would essentially continue to be the same powerless and boring character he is in ASoS and ADwD. He is a penniless ugly dwarf. He does not inspire loyalty or trust. He may have a certain potential to advise Daenerys on the lords of Westeros and his family, but that is not enough for him to actually become a player again. Nobody in Dany's camp is likely to trust a kingslayer and kinslayer all that much.

But a dragonrider can become a power in his own right. And a Targaryen bastard who is a dragonrider can also eventually lay claim to the Iron Throne itself if he plays his cards right. And Daenerys Targaryen's half-brother has a pretty good chance to win the loyalty and trust of her people in Slaver's Bay, especially if he continues and completes her anti-slavery agenda. Tyrion is the only guy with the political mind and the intelligence to deal with the Harpy and her allies.

But people will only allow him to investigate this matter or take a leadership position if he is more than Lord Tywin's son and murderer. Hell, even if he was a prettier dwarf he would still be a foreigner and an outsider among Dany's people. Not even Selmy would have a reason to trust him if he was just Tywin's son. But Dany's other people - Daario, Skahaz, the Unsullied, the freedmen, etc. - have not a single reason to even listen to a word he says. Remember how Reznak spoke about Dorne and Quentyn. Quite a few people in Dany's camp don't give a rat's ass about Westeros and the people there. But they do care about the Mother of Dragons. If Tyrion doesn't turn out to be her half-brother the best he can hope for is to become Dany's jester (together with Penny, of course).

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GRRM revealed the history between Aerys and Joanna quite late in the game, in The World book and in Barristan's talk to Dany.  Was this a red herring introduced to tease the readership, or part of something he had been setting up for a long time that most people hadn't noticed previously? I don't think it is necessary to explain the animosity between Aerys and Tywin, which had complex roots. 

One thing that makes me believe in a complex set up is the fact that he made Joanna Tywin's cousin.  This means in theory that the children can look like Lannisters even if they are not  Tywin's. This is just one of many hints that seem to point more to the twins than Tyrion. 

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I personally belive Tyrion is Aerys' bastard. But I dont think it will ever be confirmed that he is. I imagine that when the series is over this forum will be split between Tyrion is Tywins son and Tyrion is mad kings bastard. 

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One of the causes of dwarfism that affects persons of low stature emanates when the male of the species is of a mature age during conception, namely the older the father more are the chances of degenerate or faulty genomes. I wouldn't expect less from GRRM, who may be indicating to the reader what could have happened. For this genetic reason and only, I personally find it very plausible that Aerys might have been Tyrion's father. As to Genna's remarks, it is natural if Tyrion was truly Tywin's son, because he was raised in an environment full of "Tywin", and children tend to mimic their role models for various reasons. As to whether Tyrion is a "Hill" or "Waters" etc., I find that subject of little interest and importance due to the fact that Tyrion was acknowledged as Tywin's kin from birth and DNA tests are not marketed by Maesters. 

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3 minutes ago, The Dew said:

One of the causes of dwarfism that affects persons of low stature emanates when the male of the species is of a mature age during conception, namely the older the father more are the chances of degenerate or faulty genomes. I wouldn't expect less from GRRM, who may be indicating to the reader what could have happened. For this genetic reason and only, I personally find it very plausible that Aerys might have been Tyrion's father. As to Genna's remarks, it is natural if Tyrion was truly Tywin's son, because he was raised in an environment full of "Tywin", and children tend to mimic their role models for various reasons. As to whether Tyrion is a "Hill" or "Waters" etc., I find that subject of little interest and importance due to the fact that Tyrion was acknowledged as Tywin's kin from birth and DNA tests are not marketed by Maesters. 

Tywin is two years older than Aerys....

and he'd have been 19/20 when he conceived Tyrion

edit: botched the birthdates

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4 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

GRRM revealed the history between Aerys and Joanna quite late in the game, in The World book and in Barristan's talk to Dany.  Was this a red herring introduced to tease the readership, or part of something he had been setting up for a long time that most people hadn't noticed previously? I don't think it is necessary to explain the animosity between Aerys and Tywin, which had complex roots. 

It certainly isn't necessary for that. In fact, any information on Joanna Lannister is irrelevant if it doesn't have any impact on the current and future story. Aerys II had a lot of mistresses, apparently, but we know only the name of one of those. Joanna. And Joanna is also one of the few mothers of main characters who get a place in the spotlight. Lyarra Stark, the mother of Ned, has yet to be mentioned in the books. She is clearly not important, unlike Joanna.

But how is Joanna important? If she was just Tywin's little wife she wouldn't be important. Just as it would be irrelevant that Aerys was interested in her if nothing came of that. We know Aerys and Tywin had a falling out.

4 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

One thing that makes me believe in a complex set up is the fact that he made Joanna Tywin's cousin.  This means in theory that the children can look like Lannisters even if they are not  Tywin's. This is just one of many hints that seem to point more to the twins than Tyrion. 

That is an interesting point. Another is the fact that both Tywin and Tyrion bring up the possibility that Tyrion may not, in fact, be Tywin's son. This plot doesn't come out of the blue. It is just less obvious than Jon's parentage. But it is there. People were singing this song even before ADwD. Back then I thought this was a rather ridiculous idea because there was no positive evidence for the Aerys-Joanna thing. But ADwD and especially TWoIaF changed all that. Now it is blatantly obvious. The only thing we are lacking are the details. Just as we do in the case of Rhaegar-Lyanna-Jon.

I think the strongest hint that this thing is true is the fact that Tywin fucked Shae in the night before he intended to execute Tyrion. That is a very sick thing to do. What father would do a thing like that? What fahter would do something like that with a woman who had insulted and humiliate his own son and family in court?

This is not Tywin being hypocritical about whores, as people so often try to argue. Tywin can fuck as many whores as he wants behind closed doors (and he most likely did), but Shae was not only the whore-mistress of his son, she was also the woman he used or allowed to humiliate and discredit his own son in court. There has to be an explanation why he chose her of all the women he could have had. A very special and very convincing reason. Because everything we know about Tywin indicates that he would treat any woman doing this kind of thing to any family member of his worse than Aerys II treated Serala of Myr. 

He certainly would not fuck her, nor would he allow her to wear the Chain of the Hand!

So why did he do that?

The first half of that answer is that Tywin seems to have a submissive side, especially in light of the claim that Joanna ruled him. But the more important part is that fucking and using Shae - the whore-lover of Aerys' bastard in the very night before he, Tywin, would finally kill the last male get of Aerys - would have been very satisfying for him.

If Aerys is the father of Tyrion then he fucked Joanna and Tywin had to suffer this. He would have known or found out. He is not stupid. But he loved Joanna, and he may have been under he thumb. Somehow he could not kill her child. And that is actually a good character trait. Tywin is a child murderer but he does not kill Lannister children, legitimate or illegitimate. But now Tyrion killed his and Joanna's grandson. Now he can die. But before he dies Tywin symbolically takes Joanna back from Aerys by fucking 'the Joanna' (lover) of Aerys' bastard son. That is what Shae was in the night for Tywin.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It certainly isn't necessary for that. In fact, any information on Joanna Lannister is irrelevant if it doesn't have any impact on the current and future story. Aerys II had a lot of mistresses, apparently, but we know only the name of one of those. Joanna. And Joanna is also one of the few mothers of main characters who get a place in the spotlight. Lyarra Stark, the mother of Ned, has yet to be mentioned in the books. She is clearly not important, unlike Joanna.

We have absolutely no confirmation that Joanna is a mistress of Aerys II. 

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1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

We have absolutely no confirmation that Joanna is a mistress of Aerys II. 

We have Yandel telling us about very precise rumors - Prince Aerys deflowering Joanna Lannister in the night of his father's coronation, and Joanna ruling as Aerys II's mistress shortly after his own ascension - and Pycelle vouching for Joanna's integrity.

That is enough for me.

But Joanna being Tywin's mistress or not is not connected to the question of Tyrion's parentage. Tyrion wasn't born in 260 or 263 AC.

3 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

I'm 100 percent sure that Tywin would have had Tyrion killed if he had any inkling that he was not his son

Why should he? Tywin doesn't kill his own family, and most certainly not a son of his beloved wife who also happened to be his own cousin once removed.

If you think Tywin would have killed Tyrion if he had known he was Aerys' bastard why didn't he kill him, anyway? He didn't love the ugly dwarf child. He hated and despised him, and was hellbent to ensure he would never inherit Casterly Rock. Why can't Tywin see Tyrion's positive traits? Not even after his very good management of KL during his short tenure as Acting Hand. He is not as vapid as to blame him for Joanna's death his entire life. There has to be another reason.

Any father who had really believed Tyrion was his child would have been likely to eventually see some positive traits in him. Especially in light of the fact that the boy/man was pretty smart.

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I have a love-hate relationship with this theory.

Part of me wants it to be true and thinks it very likely, but then another part of me thinks that it just doesn't fit with the story.

What bothers me the most about the theory, is the date of when Aerys and Joanna last saw one another. They see one another in 272 and Tyrion was born in 273. I personally think GRRM very specifically put those two events in such close proximity to one another so a theory like this would arise among the readers. GRRM set this up on purpose.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We have Yandel telling us about very precise rumors - Prince Aerys deflowering Joanna Lannister in the night of his father's coronation, and Joanna ruling as Aerys II's mistress shortly after his own ascension - and Pycelle vouching for Joanna's integrity.

King Aerys was in the rumor and it is immediately discounted. Nor at any point is Joanna referred to as a mistress or ruling in any way, shape, or form. And pointedly his mistresses lasted from a few weeks to half a year. His obsession with Joanna lasted well over decade.

I'm sure all the men let Aerys rape Joanna at her wedding. I bet Tywin watched too. Probably liked it. That's all the evidence I need.

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16 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

What bothers me the most about the theory, is the date of when Aerys and Joanna last saw one another. They see one another in 272 and Tyrion was born in 273. I personally think GRRM very specifically put those two events in such close proximity to one another so a theory like this would arise among the readers. GRRM set this up on purpose.

Exactly. But George usually does not put such subtle hints in his books to deceive us.

Selmy's talk about Aerys at the wedding of Tywin and Aerys was odd and telling in a sense, since it established Aerys' sexual interest in Joanna - something that never mentioned before. But on that basis we could at best speculate that Aerys and Joanna might have had sex later and conceived Tyrion. But we had no evidence that this actually could have happened because we didn't know where Aerys and Joanna were around the time Tyrion was conceived.

Now we do. And it is quite telling.

Whether Joanna was raped or they had consensual sex is still completely unclear. But it is very likely that something happened there.

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

King Aerys was in the rumor and it is immediately discounted. Nor at any point is Joanna referred to as a mistress or ruling in any way, shape, or form. And pointedly his mistresses lasted from a few weeks to half a year. His obsession with Joanna lasted well over decade.

By Yandel, who is writing for a king who is married to Joanna's daughter, and two kings who are her grandsons. And he citing Grand Maester Pycelle in Joanna's defense. That is as good as a trial-by-combat declaring Joanna's guilt.

And especially the rumor about Joanna enjoying a short reign as Aerys' paramour is very difficult to imagine as a mere rumor. A reign as a paramour implies visibility. It would mean Joanna was greatly favored by the king, was constantly at her side at court, visibly and publicly touched or caressed by him, etc. Else the 'rumor' would just have speculated that Joanna may have been fucked by Aerys behind closed door. But she would then not have enjoyed a reign as his paramour.

Sure, for the people not being at court this would have been 'a rumor' as pretty much all information coming from KL would be. But for those at court it wouldn't have been a rumor at all. It would have been pretty obvious.

Now, if Aerys had just (unsuccessfully) tried to seduce Joanna this would have been pretty obvious, too.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

By Yandel, who is writing for a king who is married to Joanna's daughter, and two kings who are her grandsons. And he citing Grand Maester Pycelle in Joanna's defense. That is as good as a trial-by-combat declaring Joanna's guilt.

And especially the rumor about Joanna enjoying a short reign as Aerys' paramour is very difficult to imagine as a mere rumor. A reign as a paramour implies visibility. It would mean Joanna was greatly favored by the king, was constantly at her side at court, visibly and publicly touched or caressed by him, etc. Else the 'rumor' would just have speculated that Joanna may have been fucked by Aerys behind closed door. But she would then not have enjoyed a reign as his paramour.

Sure, for the people not being at court this would have been 'a rumor' as pretty much all information coming from KL would be. But for those at court it wouldn't have been a rumor at all. It would have been pretty obvious.

Now, if Aerys had just (unsuccessfully) tried to seduce Joanna this would have been pretty obvious, too.

Sure good as a trial by combat. Let's go with that. There is no rumor that she was his paramour. That is weasel wording at best. It's conjuring acts and history out of thin air. At no point do we get anything, even from Barristan, saying it was desired. Barristan holds back a lot and says that he took unwanted liberties. That was to Dany. Surely if there was any reciprocal desire it would have been "she was your father's paramour." She just got done hearing about Llweyn having a paramour. 

I am going to stick with Tywin loved being a cuckold and preferred to watch it though. Just as compelling and far more entertaining.

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