Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

[The Fattest Leech]

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Or it is indeed Jon and his role is to slay the princes of Ice [Bran] and Fire [Danaerys] thus breaking the cycle and bringing about the bittersweet ending

This has been discussed over in the general section. I can't find the thread, but the theme was that Jon has to literally kill the boy (Bran) so Jon the man can be "born" to do his great world saving acts in life. I think it was by @TyrionTLannister Let's just say that this idea did not go over very well with many posters , but as George says, his art is not a democracy. Lots of cute people are going to die.

[Black Crow]

 Twas ever thus; half the trouble with discussions on this forum is dealing with wishful thinking.

Take Bran again. I know that GRRM has warned against reliance on the original synopsis, but does this passage suggest a "good" outcome:

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I know that GRRM has warned against reliance on the original synopsis, but does this passage suggest a "good" outcome

Well, this one, from the same source, certainly does:

Quote

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

If we believe that, Bran survives the series and becomes a man.

But as always, you can use the same source to prove ASOIAF has turned out to be wildly different from the summary.  Oh, so easily:

"All three volumes" ... "growing from children to adults" ... "a generational saga" ... "three men and two women."  

Preposterous. GRRM will be fortunate if Bran has even hit fourteen when the last page of the seventh novel is turned, and as for the survival of those five characters, it seems anybody's guess.

[Black Crow]

Growing from children to adults may be one thing, even if time needs to move with seven-league boots, but it doesn't have to rule out one or more of them turning bad.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, this one, from the same source, certainly does:

If we believe that, Bran survives the series and becomes a man.

But as always, you can use the same source to prove ASOIAF has turned out to be wildly different from the summary.  Oh, so easily:

"All three volumes" ... "growing from children to adults" ... "a generational saga" ... "three men and two women."  

Preposterous. GRRM will be fortunate if Bran has even hit fourteen when the last page of the seventh novel is turned, and as for the survival of those five characters, it seems anybody's guess.

GRRM can always cheat and bring in a much older Bran from the future.

[Black Crow]

I don't think he needs to, given that when he spoke of growing from children into adults he was proposing a gap of some years, presumably fading from the child actor into the growed up actor playing him or her as an adult. That idea sank somewhere off Meereen leaving the original timetable a touch askew.

Nevertheless, to return to my original point, the business of Bran turning to magic "for its own sake" sounds suspiciously like being seduced by the dark side - especially when he tells Jon that he likes it in the dark

[JNR]

47 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

GRRM can always cheat and bring in a much older Bran from the future.

I suspect when the series is over, we'll see it was never possible -- in Book World, anyway -- for greenseers to time-travel to the past and affect anything there.  

If it were, the CotF wouldn't have lost Westeros to men in the first place.

37 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That idea sank somewhere off Meereen leaving the original timetable a touch askew.

More than a touch!   But c'est la vie.   GRRM is skillful enough to make this work.

39 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

the business of Bran turning to magic "for its own sake" sounds suspiciously like being seduced by the dark side - especially when he tells Jon that he likes it in the dark

To me it just sounds like the obvious:

Quote

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

This passage reflects just what GRRM wrote in his outline:

Quote

He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake.

Yes, Bran's exchanged one dream for another... but both revolve around magic.  

Whether he becomes an amoral or evil character remains to be seen, for me, but I have my doubts.  Notice even there, in his most recent chapter, it is with considerable regret that he lets go of the idea of being a great knight, and we know what he has in mind when it comes to great knights.

Quote

 

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed."

 

If Dayne was dark in any sense, Ned sure doesn't seem to have thought so, and I doubt Bran does either.  Ned's actual word for Dayne was

Quote

shining

And Bran knew that.  So, as far as I can see, Bran's morality is intact -- at this point in the story, anyway.

[PrettyPig]

48 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Nevertheless, to return to my original point, the business of Bran turning to magic "for its own sake" sounds suspiciously like being seduced by the dark side - especially when he tells Jon that he likes it in the dark

Before I got sidelined by my other essay that is now a book, I was working on something that was a blend of Norse myth meets Marvel comics...and a big part of it is a blood betrayal by one of two wolf brothers - a betrayal that prevents Ragnarok from coming to pass, but that also goes against the general interests of his wolf family.  

Interpretation could go either way, of course, but it certainly supports what I've been thinking for a while, eg Bran and Jon are going to go head to head at some point.

[ravenous reader]

13 minutes ago, JNR said:

Quote

He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake.

Yes, Bran's exchanged one dream for another... but both revolve around magic.  

Whether he becomes an amoral or evil character remains to be seen, for me, but I have my doubts.  Notice even there, in his most recent chapter, it is with considerable regret that he lets go of the idea of being a great knight, and we know what he has in mind when it comes to great knights.

Quote

 

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed."

 

If Dayne was dark in any sense, Ned sure doesn't seem to have thought so, and I doubt Bran does either.  Ned's actual word for Dayne was

Quote

shining

And Bran knew that.  So, as far as I can see, Bran's morality is intact -- at this point in the story, anyway.

It all revolves around this bit of foreshadowing:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.

"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

I think Bran is the holy trinity -- father (judge), son (sacrifice) and holy ghost (sword) all in one -- the three-headed promised prince.  He is the one who speaks the word, the one who swings the sword, as well as the sword, and the man on trial, all in one.  The death he must bravely face without flinching is his own.  What will he decide?  Will he scapegoat someone else (his brother or another) or will he choose to sacrifice himself...on account of 'the things I do for love'..? 

[Melifeather]

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It seems that Martin is setting up numerous parallels (or as Feather has pointed out, inversions).  We have weirwoods and those wedded to the weirwoods on one hand and dragons and those wedded to them on the other.  If Martin is planning on having some of his characters live a second life by being consumed by fire and their consciousnesses transferred into a dragon, he has already shown the parallel, of a character like Bloodraven being very slowly consumed by the Weirwood and we eventually assume that his consciousness will become part of the weirnet.  (Fire consumes, ice preserves).  Likewise, on the dragon side of the equation we have a Prince that was Promised, while on the weirnet side of the equation we may have Bran, the Prince of the green.

It's always bothered me that a Targaryen was in what I viewed as a Stark or at least a First Men position as greenseer. Now that you've pointed out how "ice" is consuming someone from the "fire" side, it makes sense to me with respect to the inversion theory. Shouldn't we expect a Stark to be preserved or live a second life inside a dragon, which would be "fire" preserving "ice"? It has a certain balance to it that just feels right to me. 

When Torrhen bent the knee, his (bastard?) brother Brandon intended to kill Aegon's dragons with weirwood arrows. If Bran's consciousness is forever preserved inside a dragon it would be the reverse or inversion of the historical Brandon. To complete the inversion Bran's (bastard) brother, the King in the North, would refuse to bend the knee. Will the King in the North be killed by the Bran-dragon? Or will the King in the North continue south over the Trident and take control of the Iron Throne?

Some have theorized that the white wolf signifies Jon's place as the most powerful warg or greenseer of the Stark kids, but what if it marks him as the leader of the army of the dead? 

[JNR]

15 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

He is the one who speaks the word, the one who swings the sword, as well as the sword, and the man on trial, all in one.

What do you think Bran's sins will be, to merit being on trial?

The closest I can think of so far would be his skinchanging Hodor against Hodor's will, knowing it terrifies Hodor.

Bran is just a kid, and unlike Varamyr he wasn't taught by some other skinchanger that this was "abomination" -- but still, he does know Hodor hates it, and he does it anyway.   

It seems conceivable that this could be a precedent for worse to come, or alternately, perhaps Bloodraven will realize he's doing it and have a few choice comments.

[wolfmaid7]

16 hours ago, JNR said:

I suspect when the series is over, we'll see it was never possible -- in Book World, anyway -- for greenseers to time-travel to the past and affect anything there.  

If it were, the CotF wouldn't have lost Westeros to men in the first place.

 

Whether he becomes an amoral or evil character remains to be seen, for me, but I have my doubts.  Notice even there, in his most recent chapter, it is with considerable regret that he lets go of the idea of being a great knight, and we know what he has in mind when it comes to great knights.

If Dayne was dark in any sense, Ned sure doesn't seem to have thought so, and I doubt Bran does either.  Ned's actual word for Dayne was

And Bran knew that.  So, as far as I can see, Bran's morality is intact -- at this point in the story, anyway.

I agree and have said this as well.If they could see the future they wouldn't have lost.BR was right they see flashes and they have to discern what it means.

I don't think its a question of morality but one of identity.Will he remember who he is and the lesson s of his father?Depending on what the trees teach him he may feel his actions are morally just.His identity may become a muddled mess of what he was and what the trees teach him.

"I pass judgement on the whole lot of them and with my many eyes I look into eyes of humanity and swing the swords."

We have seen characters in this story do some messed up things but their motives doesn't set them as black or white good or bad.

They make decisions for preservation of self and loved ones.

Or they have a more worldview in mind.

Bran may absolutely think what he is doing is for the best of everyone man an inhuman alike.If you have to cut down a few humans to balance a scale so what.

Or to quote a great man:

The needs of the many ,outweighs the needs of the few,or the one.

Hail Spock..All say..Hail.

15 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

It all revolves around this bit of foreshadowing:

I think Bran is the holy trinity -- father (judge), son (sacrifice) and holy ghost (sword) all in one -- the three-headed promised prince.  He is the one who speaks the word, the one who swings the sword, as well as the sword, and the man on trial, all in one.  The death he must bravely face without flinching is his own.  What will he decide?  Will he scapegoat someone else (his brother or another) or will he choose to sacrifice himself...on account of 'the things I do for love'..? 

I can see why you would characterize Bran as such and to some degree I agree.He will judge humanity based on their atrocities to nature and each other.But in loosing his identity to the trees and what they have witnessed and experienced he may be unfair in his judgement and so will be twiced sacrificed.By the COTF to the trees and by Jon who I think will be in the same position re: passing judgement and swinging the sword.

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Some have theorized that the white wolf signifies Jon's place as the most powerful warg or greenseer of the Stark kids, but what if it marks him as the leader of the army of the dead? 

I definitely subcribe to that.Something Osha said which lay along the lines of the very strong Oak and Holly King myth.

"winter has no king,if you seen it you would know."

I think that will change with Jon taking on the role as winter king (With Rickon in Winter fell) or both.I believe more in the former.

Despite what the letter says about who will survive .I think Bran will die and Jon will be the one that kills him.

I think he the trees will teach him and that right there is the problem.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

What do you think Bran's sins will be, to merit being on trial?

The closest I can think of so far would be his skinchanging Hodor against Hodor's will, knowing it terrifies Hodor.

Bran is just a kid, and unlike Varamyr he wasn't taught by some other skinchanger that this was "abomination" -- but still, he does know Hodor hates it, and he does it anyway.  

It seems conceivable that this could be a precedent for worse to come, or alternately, perhaps Bloodraven will realize he's doing it and have a few choice comments.

This is precisely what I was going to respond with in regards to the discussion of Bran's morality, as well as the whole "using magic for it's own sake" character journey that GRRM planned. 

As you say, Bran has some sense that what he is doing is wrong - which is why he hides it from the Reeds - yet he does it anyway, and I think we shouldn't undersell the horrific nature of his actions; while it may lack the visceral punch of, say, one character physically torturing another, stealing a mentally handicapped man's autonomy is a pretty fucked up thing that Bran is doing.

While I expect some sort of moral course correction for Bran before series' end, I do think we're going to see him using magic selfishly in the interim--if he's willing to take Hodor's body just because he's bored and wants to take a stroll, what might he be willing to do to those that he hates? We should keep in mind that, as of ADWD, Bran still doesn't know the full scope of what has befallen the rest of his family--iirc, he 'felt' Gray Wind and Robb's death, but he doesn't know the details of the Red Wedding, nor does he know that Catelyn is dead.

[PrettyPig]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

definitely subcribe to that.Something Osha said which lay along the lines of the very strong Oak and Holly King myth.

"winter has no king,if you seen it you would know."

I have to wonder if this is GRRM being tricksy with his phrasing, though...Osha is correct in her assessment that winter has no king- because in real legend and lore, winter has a QUEEN.

After working on this big Fisherman's Daughter essay (that I'm almost through with), I'm starting to think we --as well as some characters in-universe--may have made some mistakes in our general assumptions about ice vs. fire--as in who actually represents which aspects.  Still working it out, but it ties in to what Feather was saying above about inversions and fire consuming ice/ice preserving fire etc.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I agree and have said this as well.If they could see the future they wouldn't have lost.BR was right they see flashes and they have to discern what it means.

I don't think its a question of morality but one of identity.Will he remember who he is and the lesson s of his father?Depending on what the trees teach him he may feel his actions are morally just.His identity may become a muddled mess of what he was and what the trees teach him.

"I pass judgement on the whole lot of them and with my many eyes I look into eyes of humanity and swing the swords."

We have seen characters in this story do some messed up things but their motives doesn't set them as black or white good or bad.

They make decisions for preservation of self and loved ones.

Or they have a more worldview in mind.

Bran may absolutely think what he is doing is for the best of everyone man an inhuman alike.If you have to cut down a few humans to balance a scale so what.

Or to quote a great man:

The needs of the many ,outweighs the needs of the few,or the one.

Hail Spock..All say..Hail.

I can see why you would characterize Bran as such and to some degree I agree.He will judge humanity based on their atrocities to nature and each other.But in loosing his identity to the trees and what they have witnessed and experienced he may be unfair in his judgement and so will be twiced sacrificed.By the COTF to the trees and by Jon who I think will be in the same position re: passing judgement and swinging the sword.

I definitely subcribe to that.Something Osha said which lay along the lines of the very strong Oak and Holly King myth.

"winter has no king,if you seen it you would know."

I think that will change with Jon taking on the role as winter king (With Rickon in Winter fell) or both.I believe more in the former.

Despite what the letter says about who will survive .I think Bran will die and Jon will be the one that kills him.

I think he the trees will teach him and that right there is the problem.

I think you might be right, and if summer is ever to come the world will need a reset, which might be found in the way of Dany bringing her dragons and peoples to conquer Westeros just as Aegon did once so long ago. She can use her dragons to defeat Jon, although this doesn't feel like an end to magic so maybe GRRM has another way to end this that I haven't thought of.

8 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I have to wonder if this is GRRM being tricksy with his phrasing, though...Osha is correct in her assessment that winter has no king- because in real legend and lore, winter has a QUEEN.

After working on this big Fisherman's Daughter essay (that I'm almost through with), I'm starting to think we --as well as some characters in-universe--may have made some mistakes in our general assumptions about ice vs. fire--as in who actually represents which aspects.  Still working it out, but it ties in to what Feather was saying above about inversions and fire consuming ice/ice preserving fire etc.

I agree with you that in the end there will be a Queen, likely Sansa. Maybe that's why her direwolf died so that her ties to magic were cut-off? 

I had the last part with ice consuming fire (Bloodraven being consumed) and fire preserving ice (Bran's second life as a dragon).

Looking forward to your essay!

[PrettyPig]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think you might be right, and if summer is ever to come the world will need a reset, which might be found in the way of Dany bringing her dragons and peoples to conquer Westeros just as Aegon did once so long ago. She can use her dragons to defeat Jon, although this doesn't feel like an end to magic so maybe GRRM has another way to end this that I haven't thought of.

I agree with you that in the end there will be a Queen, likely Sansa. Maybe that's why her direwolf died so that her ties to magic were cut-off? 

I had the last part with ice consuming fire (Bloodraven being consumed) and fire preserving ice (Bran's second life as a dragon).

Looking forward to your essay!

I haven't started drawing any firm conclusions on who will be what, mainly because my head is swimming in details,but also because I want to hear others' interpretations on it.

i can't wait to finally post it for you guys to read!  It has been a lot of fun and most enlightening.  It is currently 60 Word pages long and counting though so it probably can't be posted as a Heresy topic anymore.   I may have to start a blog.  

[Melifeather]

49 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

 It is currently 60 Word pages long and counting

LOL! I'm sure you can edit it down some, or put supporting text into spoiler tags? I think my Inversion topic was several pages long, but not 60! 60 huh? Wow! That is LmL-esque.

[PrettyPig]

19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

LOL! I'm sure you can edit it down some, or put supporting text into spoiler tags? I think my Inversion topic was several pages long, but not 60! 60 huh? Wow! That is LmL-esque.

Hey, go big or go home, amirite?

i will extend the prelim invite to all here- it is basically an interpretation of the FD, a tale of two sisters, and a discussion of fire and ice--all wrapped up in the symbolism of trees. . Pretty meta but pretty cool, if a pretty pig does say so herself.  

[wolfmaid7]

20 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I have to wonder if this is GRRM being tricksy with his phrasing, though...Osha is correct in her assessment that winter has no king- because in real legend and lore, winter has a QUEEN.

After working on this big Fisherman's Daughter essay (that I'm almost through with), I'm starting to think we --as well as some characters in-universe--may have made some mistakes in our general assumptions about ice vs. fire--as in who actually represents which aspects.  Still working it out, but it ties in to what Feather was saying above about inversions and fire consuming ice/ice preserving fire etc.

Winter had both no? And it was the Night's King who gave them the title.She may have been more than just a woman.She may have even been an cold version of Mel who had influence and did influence a man with power.

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think you might be right, and if summer is ever to come the world will need a reset, which might be found in the way of Dany bringing her dragons and peoples to conquer Westeros just as Aegon did once so long ago. She can use her dragons to defeat Jon, although this doesn't feel like an end to magic so maybe GRRM has another way to end this that I haven't thought of.

I agree with you that in the end there will be a Queen, likely Sansa. Maybe that's why her direwolf died so that her ties to magic were cut-off? 

I had the last part with ice consuming fire (Bloodraven being consumed) and fire preserving ice (Bran's second life as a dragon).

Looking forward to your essay!

Not so much if Summer were to come,but if there is to be some balance to the seasons.I mean a 10 yr Summer is bad heaven forbid a neverending on as Moroqorro hopes.The red lot is awaiting a never-ending summer.He thinks Dang is the one to usher this in.

What may need to happen and what I think should happen is someone in the seat who has no agenda except to serve all.Jon is then only one who seem to have that mindset.

Like I told Pretty Pig ,their is the play on the queens.The entire lore of TPTWP pretty much erases the gender line.Dang could be a summer king or queen contender.I know A lot of people peg Sansa or even Val as a winter queen .All are great and all could be.I will throw Arya in that to.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Winter had both no? And it was the Night's King who gave them the title.She may have been more than just a woman.She may have even been an cold version of Mel who had influence and did influence a man with power.

Not so much if Summer were to come,but if there is to be some balance to the seasons.I mean a 10 yr Summer is bad heaven forbid a neverending on as Moroqorro hopes.The red lot is awaiting a never-ending summer.He thinks Dang is the one to usher this in.

What may need to happen and what I think should happen is someone in the seat who has no agenda except to serve all.Jon is then only one who seem to have that mindset.

Like I told Pretty Pig ,their is the play on the queens.The entire lore of TPTWP pretty much erases the gender line.Dang could be a summer king or queen contender.I know A lot of people peg Sansa or even Val as a winter queen .All are great and all could be.I will throw Arya in that to.

I think the two prime candidates right now are Jon as King of Winter (as we've discussed before, the morning freeze at Craster's Keep, and as Snowfyre brought up, the play on Jon Snow and Jack Frost).  If Jon's parents are in fact Brandon and Lyanna, it also gives him a "legitimate" claim to Winterfell that was usurped by Eddard.

While the Snow Queen is most likely Sansa, if her (as BC put it) snowflake communion was any indication. 

I would also put Tormund and Val as strong contenders as well.  They have at least a passing resemblance to the Russian Ded Moroz, "Father Frost",  and his granddaughter Snegurochka, the "Snow Maiden". 

I think Arya is more in line as a "servant of death".