Daenerys Demurred

[norwaywolf123]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

No, how would it lead to continent-wide xenophobia? Dany's people aren't going to be wandering around Westeros, they'll be confined to whatever region she conquers/is trying to conquer.

When people are hungry they will find excuses for taking food from others. Also Danerys people are mostly warriors who will take from the natives. I think this will create tension. I also think that food shortages will couse more tension between followers of the old gods and the seven.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

No, how would it lead to continent-wide xenophobia? Dany's people aren't going to be wandering around Westeros, they'll be confined to whatever region she conquers/is trying to conquer.

Assuming  that Daenery's conquest of Western Essos is bloody (and it would be unrealistic for it not to be) I imagine there would be a good deal of apprehension over her arrival in Westeros.  It's probable that thousands of upper class Essosi will flee across the Narrow Sea, and their counterparts in Westeros will hear that Dany is a mass murderer (whether or not that description is fair).

Whatever regime is in place in Kings Landing will make the most of this for propaganda purposes, as well as portraying Dany as the murderer of her brother and husband.

[Hodor the Articulate]

42 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

When people are hungry they will find excuses for taking food from others. Also Danerys people are mostly warriors who will take from the natives. I think this will create tension. I also think that food shortages will couse more tension between followers of the old gods and the seven.

I just don't think there will be enough time for pronounced xenophobia to develop. When Dany first starts warring in Westeros, everybody will be too busy trying not to die. She'll be moving from region to region, and her forces will follow her. Then, before her people has a chance to settle and be nuisances to the "natives", the Others come down, and everybody will be too busy trying not to die again.

53 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Assuming  that Daenery's conquest of Western Essos is bloody (and it would be unrealistic for it not to be) I imagine there would be a good deal of apprehension over her arrival in Westeros.  It's probable that thousands of upper class Essosi will flee across the Narrow Sea, and their counterparts in Westeros will hear that Dany is a mass murderer (whether or not that description is fair).

Whatever regime is in place in Kings Landing will make the most of this for propaganda purposes, as well as portraying Dany as the murderer of her brother and husband.

That's not xenophobia, but yes, I imagine there will be good deal of slander, just as there is in Essos. Though, it might work in her favor in some cases. It can be her "Field of Fire".

[dregs4NED]

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

Her burning their entire elite alive with the help of the Dothraki who worship her as a living god, perhaps? Dany's Dothraki - the one who joined her at Drogo's pyre - also no longer keep slaves.

The Dothraki that followed Daenerys into the Red Waste were few and were the weakest part of the bunch. There is a large difference between "converting" the handful of Dothraki who witnessed Daenerys becoming The Unburnt, compared to the rest of all Dothraki. It is a tall order to declare that Daenerys is going to change the culture of all Dothraki due to her conversion a handful of them early on. 

After killing the Masters in Astapor, Daenerys set up a council of three members. These three members were murdered by Cleon, "The Butcher". Soon after, he was murdered by Cleon II. Eight days later, Cleon II was murdered by King Cutthroat. This was with all the Masters dead already.

With this in mind, do you really think peace and order can be establish in Meereen and Yunkai if Daenerys burns the entire elite alive?

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

Still, she is morally obliged to avenge her family and take back what she has lost. Just as Robb was morally obliged to try to free and avenge Ned. It does not matter what your family did to lose a war or be executed. As noble or royal in this world you have to defend the honor and name of your family no matter what the members of your family did.

I feel as if you're agreeing with me on Daenerys set on the path for vengeance.. That Dany's motive for vengeance is carrying on despite the deaths those responsible being dead. That Daenerys is morally obliged to carry out vengeance. That was a big factor in my original post, as she will arrive in Westeros without an outlet for this vengeance.

Now, I agree with you in that she will not likely encounter a number of Lannisters to exact her vengeance, but what I am trying to highlight here is how this obligatory act for retribution needs to have an outlet somewhere or needs to evolve to something else through a life-changing process. And even if she exacts revenge through the remaining Lannisters, it's not going to resolve her quest for vengeance.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

If you read the text you will realize that Jaime killed Aerys mere minutes before Tywin's men entered the throne room. And both Jaime and Aerys knew that the situation was this bad. All Jaime had needed to do to prevent the execution of the wildfire plot and prevent becoming a Kingslayer would have been indeed to distract, arrest, or knock out Aerys. Then he could have handed him over to Tywin who could have killed him or kept him for Eddard or Robert.

As to the motive being 'saving KL' - if that had been the case why on earth made Jaime no attempt to recover all that wildfire hidden beneath the city. What Jaime did may have been only to postpone the inevitable because he took it on himself to kill all the alchemists. Had he any guarantee that Rossart's buddies would not burn down the city, say, half an hour after he killed Aerys? No. Yet he didn't tell Tywin's men or his father about the entire plan.

It took Jaime days later to hunt down the other pyromancers in Aerys' service. If Aerys was still alive, they might have obeyed Aerys' command, if it had reached them. He needed to die, immediately. To say that is "quite clear" that Jaime could have saved KL by staying Aerys' death and giving him to his father or to Eddard is not only an exercise in hindsight, but it is also wrong.

As to why Jaime didn't round up all the wildfire, I cannot say for sure, other than that the job of saving KL was already done. Also, you don't know what he did or did not say to Tywin and his men about the wildfire plot, let alone the reasons behind it.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

Marwyn just met Mirri Maz Duur once. Dany forgave Barristan Selmy who actually served Robert. Marwyn had no hand in Mirri's actions.

Tyrion could help to convince Dany that Marwyn's story is true. It involves Jon and Tyrion is friends with Jon and was at the Wall himself. The entire point of Tyrion going to the Wall is that he will be able to establish a connection between Dany and Jon and help them deal with the Others.

Sam has come to Oldtown to become a maester. He has a job to do. He isn't free to go to Slaver's Bay. That would make him an oathbreaker.

Marwyn knows the prophecy about the promised prince. He is not going to take matters in his own hands to fulfill some prophecy. He knows that's not exactly the smart thing to do.

Herein lies a difference between Barristan Selmy and Marwyn: you mentioned before how Dany's quest for vengeance for the death of her father was a "moral obligation". But when concerning the murderer of her husband, that is more personal, and Marwyn was under the tutelage of said murderer. Plus, Selmy had proven himself in saving Daenerys from an assassin, and in his humility after the storming of Meereen.  

Tyrion was skeptical before of the Others when he was at the Wall. He was skeptical still when he helped  Alliser Throne, who asked him for men for this very threat. Nothing has changed his skepticism.

Sam's oath is to defend the Wall. By going to Daenerys, he would be upholding that oath. Forging links for metallurgy and economics seems like a distraction. Marwyn, of all in the Citadel, would be the first to recognize this. To have someone with him who actually encountered an Other and lived would have been quite valuable.

Remember the quote that warns readers about trusting in prophecy? It was said by Marwyn:

" "Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ." "

This lingering "Still..." does not necessarily mean him becoming convinced of the prophecy. It can be of how he may turn it to his advantage. 

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

Destiny in that sense doesn't exist in this world. We have just some glimpses of the future, devoid of context. That's not destiny, that just are little pieces of stuff that's going to happen.

Then don't adhere to these prophecies. You say you may take little pieces of it, but in fact, you are treating the entire thing like scripture. Allow yourself to cast some doubt on it.

Sorry, this was a bit rude of me.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

This abstract vengeance is pretty much irrelevant in comparison to deep-seated hatred Arya feels for certain people. Arya had no place to murder Weese, Chiswyck, or the Tickler - she was mistreated and abused by those people but they did not torture or kill her, personally, right? Avenging Lommy by killing Raff is acceptable, but by the rules of the society she lives in she should be hanged for murdering the Bolton guard, Dareon, and the insurance guy.

Dany basically hates none of those Usurper's Dogs and certainly not their children and other kin. She doesn't even know those people. It isn't even clear whether she would be willing to pardon even a man like Robert for his actions once she actually gets the complete picture of the war. 

Dany isn't an angry or hateful person, either. We have to wait and see how she reacts when she is in Westeros. I'm reasonably confident that she is actually going to work with some of the houses that deposed her father while fighting against many Targaryen loyalists who stood with Aerys II during the Rebellion because they now stand with Aegon.

And it will also be Aegon who avenges House Targaryen on the Baratheons, Lannisters, Starks, etc. He is the one who is likely to end the line of the usurper, not Daenerys.

I don't know where the "rules of society" comes into play.

All you are doing is emphasizing in what I said, that Dany's vengeance is more abstract whereas Arya's vengeance is more deep-seeded. The thing is, you also called Dany's quest for vengeance a moral obligation, so Daenerys is committed to vengeance. So, where is the quest for vegngeance going to take her? That's my big question. It's a quest in occlusion, and I wonder how Daenerys will react to her vengeance being hijacked.

My other question is, in what reasons are you confident that she will transmute her quest for vengeance to diplomacy? In my honest opinion, it would need a pretty dramatic scene for Daenerys to evolve from one to the other, after her entire POV was developed in light of her wanting revenge. I'm open to it, but it will take a lot for it to happen, and I'm interested in what you have to say.

What's weird is (at least I never saw) how  Aegon VI never discussed revenge for House Targaryen. It doesn't really seem to be a motive for him. His main motive (if he hasn't stated any other) is to take and rule the Seven Kingdoms. I digress a bit, because if (f)Aegon does personally hijack Dany's vengeance, it will still only enhance my point, that Dany's lifelong quest has been taken away from her, or in other words, she didn't even need to cross the Narrow Sea to accomplish what she wanted.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

Dany is much more about home than vengeance.

Dany's mission to find "home" is more than her being about vengeance, yes, I agree. But her mission to go home is leading her to upset, as I mentioned in my original post, and may lead her to disillusionment. Vengeance is a secondary motive in comparison, but it, too, is setting her up for more upset and disillusionment.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

Dany could reconsider her conquest once she is on the Iron Throne. But if she doesn't abandon the slaves she freed - and it seems she isn't going to do that - then she is also not likely to abandon Westeros.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me if she abandons some of her people or not in relation to her "abandoning" Westeros. But you said before how she will expel all unnecessary mouths to feed before crossing the Narrow Sea, including a bulk of her freedmen. Soooo... according to yourself, wouldn't that make her more inclined to her abandoning Westeros?

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

If Dany knows about the Others she has to go to Westeros now, before it is too late. Never mind winter. If the Others win spring is not going to come again. But if she still believes this is all just some mundane conquest of a continent she can gather her strength and wait for spring. Why shouldn't she?

What I mentioned before in the original post was the danger of inserting the Others into her story, as it would reduce her original story into something mundane.. which you are already declaring. It seems that you are willing to dismiss her entire arc insofar to get to a simple battle that would reduce her current storyline into something insignificant and boring. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Gathering strength and then waiting a decade, or any length of time, means allowing your troops to rot. 

The fact is is that the advent of winter has already come, and no words have reached to her yet about how her prize is under the shadow of a glacial tsunami. And if this continues, she will leap before she looks. If word does reach to her about it, it will have to convey the magnitude of the danger that awaits, and Daenerys must receive it wholeheartedly. The problem is that it would drive a wedge between her and her main motive(s) in life, which would be incredibly problematic in terms of acceptance. In all likelihood, she may hear warnings of the perils in winter and leap anyway. Personally, I would prefer her leap to be made without the warning rather than to hear it and ignore it, as it would give her the benefit of the doubt.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

I actually think her entire decision to go west will be triggered by the news about the Others. Aegon might also play into that but the Others will be more important.

I have mentioned it before, and I'll say it again: I have a problem with this. Her base motives still exist and still serve to bring Daenerys west. To hear word about the Others as the trigger to head west is to debase her motives, casting them as meaningless and inconsequential, as they didn't carry her over in the first place. AND THEN her conquest of Westeros will be subject to her new war. That's bad writing, as the reader doesn't care about the conquest and simply wants her to get it over with so that she can fight another war far away.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

And winter will long have set in both in Westeros and Essos before Dany even begins her journey west. She might even visit a snowy Vaes Dothrak.

Like I mentioned, King's Landing is currently colder than it is in Braavos, which is more south than the latter. You also have not provided me with the quote that the lagoon in Braavos is frozen. I checked, and in Mercy's chapter, there is immense fog over the city- a potential indicator of autumn or early winter. Meanwhile, in King's Landing (more south, mind you), the Small Council flee to their fires to escape the cold. If anything, it suggests that winter does not spread evenly across the continents, and that winter will hit Westeros sooner and harder than in Essos.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

KL might long be depopulated by the time Dany finally arrives there. There might be a greyscale/grey plague pandemic and quite a lot of additional fighting long before Dany arrives.

...

See above. KL might more or less a ruin or at least in very deep trouble by the time she arrives.

So that resolves the hunger problem by introducing more problems. The point of my original post was that ruling KL was going to be no picnic, and that the city will be antagonistic than a lifelong dream acquired. Your alternate theories only add to my point. So, thank you!

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

No, what I expect are chapters where Dany and other POVs receive news about what transpired elsewhere. Just as we learned about Robb's campaigns in ACoK.

She will sent khalasars against the cities on land and move her armada west at the same time. They will then pick up the people at Volantis, Myr, and Pentos. That is not that hard to imagine.

She will kill all her enemies this time.

Robb's victories were battles in the field, not sieges. And sellswords will not meet Dothraki in the field, so the Dothraki will need to siege. An armada is good at two things, choking off trade and slinging debris, meaning a lot of collateral damage (dead slaves). So Daenerys needs to stop by each city regardless of sending out her divided forces.

The Battle of Yunkai and the Siege of Meereen were only a chapter long, and a chapter to each city can make sense. But you have said previously speculated that she will take seven of the Free Cities. I'm glad we've whittled it down to Volantis, Myr, and Pentos.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

The Usurper's Dogs all rebelled against Aerys II. In that sense they are guilty. The Great Masters of Meereen collectively made the decision to crucify 163 slave children. They also collectively opposed and fought against Daenerys and collectively maintained slavery in Meereen. They are all guilty. They young children might be innocent, sure, and Dany didn't crucify any children, right.

Her mistake there is that she did not kill them all.

The idea that the collectively made the decision is an assumption. But let's take this assumption and carry it onto Daenerys for her quest for vengeance. What's to stop her from destroying all houses involved in the rebellion against her father? You said that she would be open to diplomacy in Westeros, but what's to stop her from making another collective assumption?

The fact is is that Daenerys made a quick judgement in crucifying the Masters. It's an old "an eye for an eye", while essentially creating a lotto for those who would loose their "eye". To assume that all Masters were complicit is to broaden a caricature of the ones who decided and carried out such a deed to everyone with the title of 'Master'. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it may be a pattern that might as well extend to the houses of Westeros.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

The way things are portrayed. Nobody ever indicates that those people were innocent.

I am very confused at this point. You said that Dany does not create a caricature of her father's purported killers. I ask how she has painted an accurate picture of her father's killers, as you claim she has. And you say that it was "portrayed". That doesn't answer the question.

The fact is, in Dany's POV, her father's purported killers are hardly ever described, and are only really mentioned in the framework of her wanting to get revenge on them. In example, Dany sees Eddard Stark as "cold eyed, with a frozen heart". That's a caricature. And it is impossible for her to have a clear, accurate picture of Jaime, as he has his own side of the story to tell. Just because she is accurate in calling Robert in being a lover of war and Tywin (lumped in the group of being a Lannister) as "so powerful, so treacherous", does not mean that she does not have a broad view (instead of a precise view) on all of those involved in the opposing side of Robert's Rebellion.

"The way things are portrayed" are abstract. There is no precision involved in Dany's forming mental pictures of them, and has bent one of them into a caricature of the character who is least deserving of it.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

No, Cersei is not the natural enemy of House Targaryen. If Aegon VI Targaryen rules Westeros by the time Dany arrives Cersei and House Lannister might be the natural allies of Daenerys Targaryen.

Yes, she is. She is mother of the king who bears both the Lannister and Baratheon insignia. She was the wife of the Usurper. She is the daughter of the man who sacked her father's city. She is lumped into the family of being "so treacherous". Naturally, she would be (at least from first glance) be an enemy of House Targaryen. I'm not saying it can't be overcome, but it is a gap to bridge.

If Aegon rules KL, Cersei would likely be dead.

You put it in no uncertain terms that Daenerys will kill all of her enemies. In this scope (whether or not I agree with it), Dany will kill Aegon VI and everyone in House Lannister at the same time, without need to ally one to take on the other.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

I suggest you reread the stories and scenes depicting those dragon dreams. Daeron the Drunk dreams of a dying dragon collapsing on Dunk. Daemon II Blackfyre dreams about a dragon egg hatching at Whitewalls yet both those images don't come true literally. Not all aspects of a prophetic dream have to come true in a literal sense. The enemies armored in ice might represent the Others just as literal dragons can represent Targaryens in prophetic dreams.

And the fact that Dany - who seems to be the promised princess - is Rhaegar in her dream strongly indicates she is the real Rhaegar as the real promised princess. Rhaegar mistakenly believed he was the promised prince, after all.

Daemon II Blackfyre was known for having prophetic dreams. And Daeron had a rare gift as well. Although, I'm not sure of a dragon egg hatching at Whitewalls is a good example, as I'm unsure to how it symbolically matches with something that actually happened. Can you enlighten me? 

There is no evidence to suggest that Daenerys has this rare gift, as she has not had any dreams come true yet. It is contentious to say that Daenerys had one, in where Dany dreams of a dragon being woken amidst a fire, as it was a nightmare, and it can be alluded more to Dany waking the dragon in Viserys, not in herself or the hatching of her dragons. Personally, I am up in the air with both of these interpretations. 

But the fact is is that Dany herself said that that dream with Robert was merely dream, and the context of it would point to something else than prophesying of the Others. To see the word 'ice" and immediately think of the Others is proof of a predisposition than anything else, whether it be right or wrong.

When she is Rhaegar in her dreams, it is about the transference of how she is "the last dragon" instead of her brother(s), where I believe it is emphasizing in the finality of her house. If it were a prophecy, it would be excluding Jon Snow, ya?

Personally, I am very against Daenerys being the promised princess for a variety of reasons, many of which I have already stated. And personally, I feel as if what bolsters this notion of Dany being the promised princess is the wish for an idyllic ending and an expectation of her riding dragons vs the Others. We'll see how it becomes written, though, as we should come to expect the smashing of wishes and expectations.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

We have the original outline. We pretty much know Dany is going to live until the end of the series, conquer Westeros, and play a role in the fight against the Others. And it is also much easier to guess at what Dany will do when she controls the Dothraki than how her conquest of Westeros will unfold when we don't know yet where and what Euron, Aegon, Cersei, Littlefinger, Stannis, Catelyn, the Martells, etc. will be by that time.

If you try to predict the course of the story at the end of ACoK without considering that the possibility that Joffrey, Robb, and Tywin may die before Dany arrives in Westeros you would make a similar mistake.

I'm not against in her receiving a role in this war, it's just that there are some serious roadblocks in the way that I don't believe you have considered, including it's hard absence in Dany's chapters insofar, how it would override her storyline altogether, and how it would become a Diabolus ex Machina. I fear that you are willing to forfeit her current arc in order for this purported outcome to be true. To me, that's troubling.

Two books is a long time for Dany to receive this new war and... warm up to it ^heheh, but it means to overtake her current arc, and I simply do not like that at all. If it all boils to a matter of preference in how things will unravel, I like how I had written it out in the original post, because it comports with her current arc and may still have a role for Daenerys in the Other war down the line (secrets of making dragonglass may wait in Asshai) while not having it supersede her arc. It takes problems that cannot be resolved, such as the food crisis and Dany invading with a foreign army, and applies it to extrapolation.

I don't like this "promised princess" arc because it does not comport with her current arc whatsoever and requires a new arc from Dany's POV in order for her to reach to it. It also extrapolates from the wrong end, from an ending instead of from where she's currently at. 

You can debate the points I have made and say that it doesn't work because of x and y, that's fine. But to argue against it because it doesn't match with your outlook on how it should end based on interpretations of supposed prophecies, then you'll receive a grimace relayed through words.

On 7/26/2017 at 2:44 PM, Lord Varys said:

The idea would be that she takes only those men with her that are fanatic followers of hers. Not people that are only looking forward to plunder.

But what if these freedmen want to follow her? Will Mhysa say no? Even if they say they will die swimming across the Narrow Sea to reach her? Plus, she may gain more fanatics than lose those who are solely looking for plunder. Also, aren't these freedmen fanatics, too? Any way you cut it, it will still mean many mouths to feed, and these fanatics will still have a clashing mindset from the Faith of the Seven. 

On 7/30/2017 at 8:39 AM, Sea Dragon said:

You are rather confusing me. If anything what Linda says supports your ideas that you keep making in this thread. Linda and Ran don't know everything but they know more than we do and for that reason is why I would trust them over regular posters on forums such as this. You also say in this very post that Daenerys is all about her vengeance and her unavoidable destiny. So this is why your comments are not consistent and confusing. I am not trying to sound mean but I just don't understand your debate at this point.

@The Fattest Leech mentioned that Linda is the difference between a fan of the author with being just a fanboy, saying that she is not like the latter. I disagree. I am biased against Linda because she appears to be a very negative person and has shown that she cannot receive comments that go against her own outlook, and attacks everything about the show, down to the wardrobe.  And thus I am hesitant on having her rigid opinions being inserted into the conversation, even if they serve to prove my view, especially since she does not have insider information on Dany's path (which I might have preemptively noted).

In which way are my comments not consistent? I'm genuinely interested in knowing, but I would need your help in seeing it.

Daenerys is driven by her vengeance (among other motives stated in the original post), but it will later serve towards her being disillusioned, as she has nowhere to place her revenge. It is also one motive of many that is leading her to a purported kinder land. 

Her unavoidable destiny is taking the Iron Throne, but she will become disillusioned from it as well once she has it due to its monstrous nature, to it being symbolic of the dark warpath she has taken. 

The more specific you can be on what you don't understand, the more specific I can be in clarifying my position.

On 8/1/2017 at 11:45 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

No, how would it lead to continent-wide xenophobia? Dany's people aren't going to be wandering around Westeros, they'll be confined to whatever region she conquers/is trying to conquer.

So, wherever Daenerys is, that region will be xenophobic. Sure!

The reason why xenophobia would be more exaggerated with Daenerys than with (f)Aegon is because her army isn't just one mercenary company. It's a group of mercenaries, bunched with Dothraki screamers, plus Unsullied eunuchs, and a ragged following of freed slaves, all speaking multiple languages.

[dregs4NED]

Also, if you believe xenophobia takes time to develop, consider the surface value of a foreign army invading your homeland.

[Hodor the Articulate]

8 hours ago, dregs4NED said:

So, wherever Daenerys is, that region will be xenophobic. Sure!

The reason why xenophobia would be more exaggerated with Daenerys than with (f)Aegon is because her army isn't just one mercenary company. It's a group of mercenaries, bunched with Dothraki screamers, plus Unsullied eunuchs, and a ragged following of freed slaves, all speaking multiple languages.

Xenophobia would require people to view Dany's people as a separate entity to her, something that is unlikely to develop without her people spending an extended length of time in one place, doing things that aren't related to her campaign. As it is, her people are just her army, a temporary presence. An argument could be made for xenophobia once they start settling into Westeros, but that's unlikely to happen before the Others start causing trouble.

I'm not seeing the difference between multiple mercenaries vs one mercenary company.

8 hours ago, dregs4NED said:

Also, if you believe xenophobia takes time to develop, consider the surface value of a foreign army invading your homeland.

But it's not an invading foreign force, it's a Westerosi reclaiming her lands with a foreign force. The former is perceived as new people coming in and changing your way of life, while the latter is just a change in leadership.

[norwaywolf123]

On 2.8.2017 at 1:37 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I just don't think there will be enough time for pronounced xenophobia to develop. When Dany first starts warring in Westeros, everybody will be too busy trying not to die. She'll be moving from region to region, and her forces will follow her. Then, before her people has a chance to settle and be nuisances to the "natives", the Others come down, and everybody will be too busy trying not to die again.

That's not xenophobia, but yes, I imagine there will be good deal of slander, just as there is in Essos. Though, it might work in her favor in some cases. It can be her "Field of Fire".

Daenerys intends to displace the indiginous population and subjugate them to hostile aliens. Dothraki see the Westerosi as livestock to be used to extract wealth from. That is also how the dothraki has treated every non dothraki they ever meet till Daenerys. Look how they treeted the sheep people! Westeros needs a homegrown republican capitalist war for freedom.

[norwaywolf123]

15 hours ago, dregs4NED said:

The Dothraki that followed Daenerys into the Red Waste were few and were the weakest part of the bunch. There is a large difference between "converting" the handful of Dothraki who witnessed Daenerys becoming The Unburnt, compared to the rest of all Dothraki. It is a tall order to declare that Daenerys is going to change the culture of all Dothraki due to her conversion a handful of them early on. 

After killing the Masters in Astapor, Daenerys set up a council of three members. These three members were murdered by Cleon, "The Butcher". Soon after, he was murdered by Cleon II. Eight days later, Cleon II was murdered by King Cutthroat. This was with all the Masters dead already.

With this in mind, do you really think peace and order can be establish in Meereen and Yunkai if Daenerys burns the entire elite alive?

There needs to be a new poltical culture. Something Daenerys is unwilling to provide. Daenerys belives in holy genes not in honest work.

[Hodor the Articulate]

13 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Daenerys intends to displace the indiginous population and subjugate them to hostile aliens. Dothraki see the Westerosi as livestock to be used to extract wealth from. That is also how the dothraki has treated every non dothraki they ever meet till Daenerys. Look how they treeted the sheep people! Westeros needs a homegrown republican capitalist war for freedom.

The intentions of Dany don't matter in this discussion, nor that of the Dothraki. We're talking about what Westeros will perceive, not what actually is. Why would the smallfolk think they'll be displaced when Dany's troops will be here one day, gone the next?

[dregs4NED]

18 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Xenophobia would require people to view Dany's people as a separate entity to her, something that is unlikely to develop without her people spending an extended length of time in one place, doing things that aren't related to her campaign. As it is, her people are just her army, a temporary presence. An argument could be made for xenophobia once they start settling into Westeros, but that's unlikely to happen before the Others start causing trouble

First impressions can go a long way. All it takes is for one mercenary to be gaudy, or to size up a Westerosi, to inflame tensions. Or maybe one freedman feeling the taste of war for the first time and embrace his bloodlust.

18 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm not seeing the difference between multiple mercenaries vs one mercenary company.

I figured that the act of hiring a mercenary company is an act of buying loyalty, and buying multiple mercenary companies compounds this. Plus, it adds to the number of banners in Dany's retinue, either adding their own histories behind Dany's service or expanding the "unknown" factor that a Westerosi might puzzle on when gazing upon her army. But you're right, this is a relatively, super minor point.

18 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

But it's not an invading foreign force, it's a Westerosi reclaiming her lands with a foreign force. The former is perceived as new people coming in and changing your way of life, while the latter is just a change in leadership.

That's semantics in wartime. The fact of the matter is that a new enemy has landed ashore with an army of multiple foreign backgrounds, and the reaction to this is going to be basic and visceral. However you cut it, it's going to inspire that instinctual desire to protect your homeland. As Jorah said, "Nothing knits a broken realm together so quick as an invading army on its soil." Plus, Daenerys is not familiar with the ways of Westeros, and may very well be coming to change their way of life, for all they know. Bringing in the armies of Essos may prop up this notion.  

13 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

There needs to be a new poltical culture. Something Daenerys is unwilling to provide. Daenerys belives in holy genes not in honest work.

I don't think it's a matter of her being unwilling, but rather her not knowing on how. 

[Makk]

13 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

There needs to be a new poltical culture. Something Daenerys is unwilling to provide. Daenerys belives in holy genes not in honest work.

I don't think that is fair. Her story in the entire last book was about Daenerys trying to create a new political culture through peaceful means and compromise, and she more or less achieved that. The only problem was that after she saw the outcome she was not completely happy with it and started to think she should have subdued Mereen and the nobles through more forceful means. But who knows how she will feel after a few more chapters.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I always thought a marriage to Willas Tyrell could go a long way in dispelling the notion that Dany is a foreign invader. Smallfolk seem to like the Tyrells and Willas must still be single for a reason. Though Willas and the Reach will need to hold back Euron in order for them to still be a valuable ally.

[TMIFairy]

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Willas must still be single for a reason.

A poof!

Though Willas and the Reach will need to hold back Euron in order for them to still be a valuable ally.

Once it pulls its troops back the Reach can easily contain the Ironborn.

Especially with the Iron Fleet at Mereen the Reach can probably gain naval supremacy with the remainder if its fleet. Maybe Willas could bribe the remanents of the Royal Navy and hire sellsails?

Marrying Willas could be a good idea to gain the Reache's support. In such a case Willas could be her consort (and maybe Hand) with Highgarden passing to Garlan. Either permanently or as regent until some D+W=rugrats are available. 

 

[norwaywolf123]

5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The intentions of Dany don't matter in this discussion, nor that of the Dothraki. We're talking about what Westeros will perceive, not what actually is. Why would the smallfolk think they'll be displaced when Dany's troops will be here one day, gone the next?

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 4/08/2017 at 2:58 PM, dregs4NED said:

First impressions can go a long way. All it takes is for one mercenary to be gaudy, or to size up a Westerosi, to inflame tensions. Or maybe one freedman feeling the taste of war for the first time and embrace his bloodlust.

I figured that the act of hiring a mercenary company is an act of buying loyalty, and buying multiple mercenary companies compounds this. Plus, it adds to the number of banners in Dany's retinue, either adding their own histories behind Dany's service or expanding the "unknown" factor that a Westerosi might puzzle on when gazing upon her army. But you're right, this is a relatively, super minor point.

That's semantics in wartime. The fact of the matter is that a new enemy has landed ashore with an army of multiple foreign backgrounds, and the reaction to this is going to be basic and visceral. However you cut it, it's going to inspire that instinctual desire to protect your homeland. As Jorah said, "Nothing knits a broken realm together so quick as an invading army on its soil." Plus, Daenerys is not familiar with the ways of Westeros, and may very well be coming to change their way of life, for all they know. Bringing in the armies of Essos may prop up this notion.  

I don't think it's a matter of her being unwilling, but rather her not knowing on how. 

Yeah, I don't see it. If this were a problem, people would freak out every time someone used mercenaries from Essos. Dany is seen as one of their own, not a foreigner, and the Targ name still holds legitimacy and prestige in Westeros. She'll be considered just another person pressing her claim, and whatever her troops get up to will be attributed to her. Whatever protectiveness people will feel over their lands should be no different than if some Westerosi lord cam at them with an army.

20 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

 

I'm not sure what your point is, here.

[dregs4NED]

1 minute ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yeah, I don't see it. If this were a problem, people would freak out every time someone used mercenaries from Essos.

I am legitimately curious if there were any time within the series when an Essosi mercenary was used in a Westerosi affair. I think it would be a good metric to start from. I'd love to hear about a mercenary company in Westeros and the local's reaction towards them.

3 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Dany is seen as one of their own, not a foreigner, and the Targ name still holds legitimacy and prestige in Westeros.

The Targaryen name also still has the recent tone of the Mad King. That reputation is still a relatively fresh wound.

4 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

She'll be considered just another person pressing her claim, and whatever her troops get up to will be attributed to her.

This is something I was wanting to allude to on my original post, that the actions of her army will be attributed towards her. And if anything goes afoul with her attempts for diplomatic relations, well, the buck stops at her. Her responsibility to represent the prestige of the Targaryen name (before her father sullied it) can potentially be tarnished by any flagrant fool in her army that might feel empowered in conquering a foreign land.

And the consensus seems to be that Daenerys will be leaning on her taking a "dark turn" or "dark path" sometime soon. If this happens, her temper flares, and she is easily labeled as "The Daughter of the Mad King", especially when the people who follow her incite xenophobia within Westeros, and then she might try to defend her own men.

[dregs4NED]

On 8/3/2017 at 6:44 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Daenerys intends to displace the indiginous population and subjugate them to hostile aliens. Dothraki see the Westerosi as livestock to be used to extract wealth from. That is also how the dothraki has treated every non dothraki they ever meet till Daenerys. Look how they treeted the sheep people! Westeros needs a homegrown republican capitalist war for freedom.

I don't agree with this. To say that Daenerys will allow her men to round up the locals seems strange, as the "dark turn" that Daenerys might take would mean that she embraces the lifestyle that lead to the tragedy of Eroeh. In all honesty, I hope Daenerys never becomes radicalized like this, for it is in the total opposite spectrum on who her character is.

[dregs4NED]

23 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I always thought a marriage to Willas Tyrell could go a long way in dispelling the notion that Dany is a foreign invader. Smallfolk seem to like the Tyrells and Willas must still be single for a reason. Though Willas and the Reach will need to hold back Euron in order for them to still be a valuable ally.

I often think on what might be a pragmatic (if not idyllic) route for Daenerys to win over Westeros and turn the tide of winter. 

I have not considered Willas Tyrell. That is, indeed, a wonderful idea and would be a curious dynamic between the two characters.

[Hodor the Articulate]

23 hours ago, dregs4NED said:

I am legitimately curious if there were any time within the series when an Essosi mercenary was used in a Westerosi affair. I think it would be a good metric to start from. I'd love to hear about a mercenary company in Westeros and the local's reaction towards them.

Tywin hired the Brave Companions, which is made up of a mish-mash of unsavory chaps from every continent. They later work for Roose. I can't remember if there are any other mentions, but Stannis uses pirates at the Blackwater and wants to hire Essosi mercenaries in ADWD. I can't imagine they're that alienating, or nobody in Westeros would use them. Though, Stannis' situation is pretty desperate.

23 hours ago, dregs4NED said:

The Targaryen name also still has the recent tone of the Mad King. That reputation is still a relatively fresh wound.

Eh, people are fickle. Some smallfolk were still chanting for Aerys and lamenting his loss in one of Arya's chapters. Point is, Targ blood still holds power in Westeros. Dany won't be invading, she'll be reclaiming.

23 hours ago, dregs4NED said:

This is something I was wanting to allude to on my original post, that the actions of her army will be attributed towards her. And if anything goes afoul with her attempts for diplomatic relations, well, the buck stops at her. Her responsibility to represent the prestige of the Targaryen name (before her father sullied it) can potentially be tarnished by any flagrant fool in her army that might feel empowered in conquering a foreign land.

And the consensus seems to be that Daenerys will be leaning on her taking a "dark turn" or "dark path" sometime soon. If this happens, her temper flares, and she is easily labeled as "The Daughter of the Mad King", especially when the people who follow her incite xenophobia within Westeros, and then she might try to defend her own men.

Sure, if her men start misbehaving, it'll be her they'll blame. It's like how the smallfolk that Arya meet blame the Starks and Lannisters for all the raping and pillaging during the war. The disapproval would have to be strong and widespread for it to be a problem, though. Hence why I originally said the sparrow movement might cause trouble for her, not xenophobia.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

On 8/3/2017 at 11:11 PM, TMIFairy said:

Marrying Willas could be a good idea to gain the Reache's support. In such a case Willas could be her consort (and maybe Hand) with Highgarden passing to Garlan. Either permanently or as regent until some D+W=rugrats are available. 

Plus Willas loves hawking and is good with all the animals that he seems to surround himself with. So he probably wouldn't mind when Dany smells likes dragons. I'm guessing he'd write a book about Dany and her relationship with her dragons as well as painting them together.

 

On 8/4/2017 at 10:51 PM, dregs4NED said:

I often think on what might be a pragmatic (if not idyllic) route for Daenerys to win over Westeros and turn the tide of winter. 

I have not considered Willas Tyrell. That is, indeed, a wonderful idea and would be a curious dynamic between the two characters.

Those were pretty much my thoughts on it for awhile. From what we know of Willas I think they could make a good match and he is still (in my mind mysteriously) unwed.  Though he'd likely need to have a much bigger presence in the next books, which is possible with Euron raiding the Reach.