The truth about Ashara Dayne's suicide

[The Fattest Leech]

On 8/23/2017 at 1:34 AM, Ygrain said:

Wenda the White Fawn. The Kingswood brotherhood gets a lot of attention in the last book, the story of her branding the asses of noble prisoners is even repeated (it's in the Merret epilogue and then in a Jaime chapter when he talks to Merret's family), and her fate is unknown (unlike the other notable members). The origin of her nickname is unknown; white could refer to septa's robes (BTW, Lemore taught YG about the Faith - such a task should be done by someone well-versed in the doctrine, not merely its follower like Ashara, about whom we have no mention as being religious). Furthermore, if Wenda was a former septa, then in the parallel between the Kingswood brotherhood and Robin Hood's merry band, she is Lady Marian and Friar Tuck, who otherwise doesn't have a parallel. We know that Lemore had given birth; being a soiled septa - or made to become one because of being soiled - would explain her rather personal vendetta against the young noblemen as proxies for the one who seduced and dumped her. We also have an account of Barristan rescuing Jeyne Swann and her septa from the brotherhood - well, wouldn't it be a cute chance for Wenda to save her ass, seeing that the brotherhood was doomed? It was speculated that Wenda may have been of House Cafferen (sigil of two fawns), which is a Stormland house, just like house Swann, which would allow for a possibility for the two women being acquainted and Jeyne thus cooperating to help Wenda. Finally, there is a possible connection through the Toynes - Simon Toyne was the brotherhood's Robin Hood, the GC was led by Miles Toyne who was on the Aegon plot.

The original idea is FireEater's, I only elaborated on it a bit.

Hmmm. Not too bad. 

This makes me think of Arya, who wants to be like Wenda:

and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.

And we know "little bitches" are just female pups:

That vile little bitch Wenda had burned a fawn into the cheek of his arse while she had him captive.

Which kinda reminds me of this: 

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Ckram said:

The wiki says it is from the app.

I'll take your word for it, but many years ago, before the app existed, Ran and I argued the point regarding whether or not the Darkstar could be Aegon. Ran kept saying he was too old based on Arianne's fondness for older men. I kept on saying we don't know how old Ser Gerold was so he couldn't be ruled out. Ran settled the point by asking George. Late twenties in A Feast for Crows.

[TMIFairy]

Is Septa Lemore chubby enough to be the combined Frair Tuck and Lady Miriam analog?

Inquisitive (and dirty) minds demand to know!

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I'll take your word for it, but many years ago, before the app existed, Ran and I argued the point regarding whether or not the Darkstar could be Aegon. Ran kept saying he was too old based on Arianne's fondness for older men. I kept on saying we don't know how old Ser Gerold was so he couldn't be ruled out. Ran settled the point by asking George. Late twenties in A Feast for Crows.

Was that before or after they killed Cold Hands?  

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Is Septa Lemore chubby enough to be the combined Frair Tuck and Lady Miriam analog?

Inquisitive (and dirty) minds demand to know!

What my mind's eye sees when I read Tyrion's impression of her is Phobe Cates (but older) in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. You know the scene. (If you don't, watch the movie. It's awesome, totally awesome!) 

[TMIFairy]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What my mind's eye sees when I read Tyrion's impression of her is Phobe Cates

Skinny

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Was that before or after they killed Cold Hands?  

Spoilers alert! who killed Cold Hands? Damn, I was still working on who he was before "they" did him in. I'm slow. What can I say?

[SFDanny]

On 8/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Ygrain said:

But that's it - he shouldn't be withholding the information at all - I mean, not completely, that's not his way. His mastery is in concealing the information in plain sight, in a way that leaves space for doubt; he tells without actually telling. "Stone beast breathing shadow fire", how many theories are there out there? He could have let Tyrion mention that Lemore's eyes are notable in some way, in certain light, without specifying. Thus we would know something is going on but still be left in the dark what exactly.

Here we have to disagree. I think Martin's track record is to reveal a mystery gradually through the series. Here the mystery is who is Septa Lemore and what is her role in the Aegon conspiracy? We have only just met Lemore in the last book, and the one character who is trying to figure out who she is can't do it yet. Why would Martin give a clue that has the reader jumping to a conclusion well before he is ready to reveal it in the series? Right now, he has just let us know that Lemore is hiding who she really is, and the Septa has a past that includes giving birth. If she is Ashara, I think we can include Ser Barristan's dropping the story that she had a stillborn daughter as another clue to the reader. But part of the problem is we have too much time between publications for our own good. It seems like we are waiting forever to find out the answers to this mystery and many others, and we therefore can't understand why George doesn't give us all the clues to figure them out up front, In terms of the time in the story itself, it really isn't that long, and we should expect more gradual reveals of this part of the story - including Lemore's eye color if it turns out to be important.

 

On 8/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Ygrain said:

No, Tyrion certainly shouldn't be able to identify her as Ashara, but the information should be there for the benefit of the reader, just like Alleras' widow peak, just like the blue roses in Ned's PoVs. This is again something that GRRM does, presenting the reader with information the sigificance of which characters are unaware of.

Yes, but that doesn't mean he wants to give us the reveal well before the characters figure it out.

On 8/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Ygrain said:

That's exactly my line of thought. A purple-eyed boy who is not who he claims he is, and a purple-eyed middle-aged woman with stretchmarks: it begs pondering whether the two may be related. Yet, this line of thought is completely missing.

I'd argue it not missing even without the similarities in eye color that may be there. Clearly, Tyrion figures out who Griff is, and who Young Griff claims to be. Yet Tyrion never tells us he is convinced Young Griff is really Aegon. At most we get that Tyrion is not yet decided if Aegon is really Aegon. Which means he ponders the alternative - that he is a pretender. Some of the clues, true or not, that he and the reader have to consider is Lemore's life long relationship with the boy and her stretch marks. A mother/son relationship should be a possibility any close reader of the text would think about with just the information we have.

On 8/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Ygrain said:

- Mind you, I'm not saying that Tyrion should identify Ashara like he did Aegon and JonCon. My point is that if Lemore is Ashara and therefore has purple eyes, in this particular surrounding, with these particular characters around, Tyrion should spend some time trying to figure out how she fits in, without really arriving at a conclusion.

I agree with you here, and I think Tyrion does just that - and does not arrive at a conclusion, as you say. He has what looks like months to consider the mystery, yet when he is taken by Ser Jorah he hasn't figured it out.

 

On 8/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Ygrain said:

Well, if I understood correctly, you claimed that we don't get all the necessary information because when looking at Lemore, Tyrion is interested in her, eh, lower features. My counterpoint was that when she says that she "must needs hide", his sexual interest is overruled by intellectual, and therefore the hormonal blinders are no longer in place and in his internal monologue, something about her notable eyes should pop up.

I agree Tyrion has to have noticed Lemore's eyes in their shape and color during the long time after the initial scene in which we the beginnings of Lemore's description. That scene is framed, as all perspectives, from the character's POV who is telling the story, and the frame of mind each character is in at the time. I was only pointing out how Tyrion's state of mind at the time effects what we are told in that scene and that scene alone. He has sunk to his lowest levels in the aftermath of the murder of his father, and spent most of it drunk for weeks on end, and now is only focused on his sexual needs and desires in relation to Lemore. Later we get none of the detailed description of her from Tyrion's perspective, and that is what we would expect if he hasn't noticed anything that would help reveal the mystery of her identity. Martin changes Tyrion's behavior over the course of the voyage, but he never gives us another description of the Septa like does the first time. It is Martin's way, I think, of allowing his character to ponder the question and come to the conclusion, or in this case no conclusion, without giving the reader a huge clue as who Lemore is before he wants to do so.

On 8/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Ygrain said:

BTW, nothing we have been told about Ashara so far indicates why she should be careful about hiding her identity, she's presumed dead for almost twenty years and no-one ever had a reason to look for her.

Anyone who is on that boat is part of a conspiracy that mandates secrecy. If she is Ashara, and is the one who smuggled the baby Aegon out of Westeros she has every reason to hide who she is. If she is Ashara and she is part of Varys's plot to put a fake Aegon on the throne, then she still has reason to hide her identity.

On 8/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Ygrain said:

It was "nailed to the floor of Starfall", IIRC, and while he doesn't state where exactly she was, I am fairly sure there was some statement where she wasn't - only, I cannot remember the phrasing and don't have the time to look it up, so I don't know if it was during the Rebellion or just during the Sack, with Elia or in KL.

I only put the "nailed to the floor" part in quotation because the importance of the quote is to say Ashara could be anywhere because they have horses and boats in Dorne, if IIRC. If you remember any quote that ties it down further, I'd love to read it. I'll try to spend some time looking for it and if I do, I will post it here.

On 8/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Ygrain said:

Thank you for going into such lengths for me, and there are certainly things I can agree with, like Varys being the last person on the planetos Rhaegar and Elia would trust. I also agree that they would want to get their children away from KL; what I am not sure about is how Ashara would escape detection. Do you think that Rhaegar knew some secrets of the Red Keep?

No problem. Always a pleasure, even if we disagree.

It certainly is possible that Rhaegar knew some secrets of the Red Keep that would help in smuggling Aegon out, but my guess this is more like Jeyne Poole's escape from Ramsay's bedchamber than like Arya's escape from the Red Keep. A wet-nurse and her babe go in and a wet nurse and "her babe" go out. Ashara may or may not be part of this part of the escape.

It is an interesting question about Ashara though. Would she be kept out of the Red Keep? Out of King's Landing? Possible, but not necessarily so. But here, the critical factor is that Rhaegar was not kept in the Red Keep as hostage. He is about the business of rebuilding his army and training it to fight the rebels. That can't be done within the confines of King's Landing, Which would permit a meeting of Rhaegar and Ashara without sneaking through guards and gates.

[Lost Melnibonean]

For reasons stated by others above, I don't think it's Ashara because of the purple eyes, or Tyene's mum because of the blond hair, but hey, the good news is, we should find out in Arianne III, Winds whether Lemore is Ashara or Tyene's mum, since Arianne ought to recognize either of those two. If not, it comes down to the Mad Maid or the White Fawn. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 8/15/2017 at 1:44 AM, StraightFromAsshai said:

She was best friends with Elia. Her brother was the same with Rhaegar. 

I think Ashara's suicide was over guilt. She told Ned Stark where to find Lyanna, and when he returned with Dawn she felt she was responsible for her brother's death.

And finally, What baby?

Barristan Selmy is the only one that bought up that Ashara commited suicide becauce of a stillborn and the culprit? One of the Starks. No other mention by another character. A gorgeous noble woman that every man wanted? Maybe Barristan is still hurting after all these years.

 

Maybe Ned Dayne was right when talking to Arya "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

 

Hearing all the horrors year around and then having it come to your front step as verified proof could make someone jump off a cliff.

 

So much for being a second son with no aspirations to  ever rule and  be free to follow your heart.

Not sure if any one mentioned it and dont wanna read that many pages of responses but, Cersei Lannister mentions it to Eddard when he confronts her about the truth of her children. She responds by asking him about Ashara Dayne and her death, and whether it was for the brother Eddard slew, or the child Eddard stole. 

This is sometime taken as Jon. IMO it's Dany. Eddard didn't take Jon from Ashara, he got him from Lyanna. The child he took from Ashara around the time of her assumed suicide is Dany, the child of Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne. Some evidence other than Barristan's account and comparison of Dany to Ashara Dayne being a mirror of comparisons to Arya and Jon to Lyanna. The Cersei thing i mentioned. Alllll the evidence of the Tower of Joy and Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar to produce Jon, which takes Ashara and her possible child out of that picture leaving her and her child..... where? 

When Dany has her vision at the House of the Undying, she see's Aegon who looks up at her after proclaiming the 3-heads of the dragon bit. Dany cant tell if he's speaking to her or the woman in the bed as he looks at Dany. IMO he's not looking at Dany, he's looking at Elia Martell's Lady in Waiting, Ashara Dayne. Who he was originally planning on having his 3rd child with, as planned with his best friend, Arthur Dayne. Now, plans went a lil awry though come the Tourney of Harrenhal where Rhaegar breaks his vow to Ashara and dishonors her. How? By crowing Lyanna Stark Queen of Love and Beauty through the meddling of Bloodraven and Howland Reed.

Now, when did they meet up and actually make good on the vow to Ashara and Arthur Dayne who died for Rhaegar? When Rhaegar came back to King's Landing from the Tower of Joy, in those couple weeks or so before he rode off to the Trident to meet his death. Hence the separation in time between Jon and Dany's births.

Note how many times Dany see's Rhaegar. Way more that Aerys. She even see's her self as Rhaegar multiple times. Is Quiathe, Ashara Dayne? Possibly. Idk. The Daynes do seem to have some deep connection to the Great Empire of The Dawn of which Ashai im sure was a part of. 

Also there are many things people have found and pointed out about Dany that dont line up, like her Lemon Tree and Red Door scandal. She speaks Valyrian some how, while her supposed brother Viserys cant and has to speak in the common tongue to speak secretly from the Dothraki. Viserys remembers a night flight from K.L. to Dragon Stone and yet Jamie recalls The Queen leaving in the morning. Many more clues too. 

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

For reasons stated by others above, I don't think it's Ashara because of the purple eyes, or Tyene's mum because of the blond hair, but hey, the good news is, we should find out in Arianne III, Winds whether Lemore is Ashara or Tyene's mum, since Arianne ought to recognize either of those two. If not, it comes down to the Mad Maid or the White Fawn. 

Couple of questions, LM. Do you know if there is to be a Arianne III release before Winds comes out? I had not heard of any planned release of new chapter before Winds, but would love to read it if is released.

Second, Why do you think Arianne would recognize Ashara if she meets her? The Princess's age when Elia and her children are are said to have died in the sack make it unlikely that she knew or would recognize Ashara if she did ever meet her.

Spoiler

From a released chapter of Arianne in The Winds of Winter:

"I was seven when Elia died.  They say I held her daughter Rhaenys once, when I was too young to remember.  Aegon will be a stranger to me, whether true or false."  The princess paused." This along with the following quote in A Feast for Crows tells us Arianne was born in 276.

“I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown.” (AFfC 603)

The part about Arianne holding Rhaenys once but being too young to remember is important as this is a time in which we would think Ashara was in Elia's company.

Do you recall something that would suggest the two knew each other?

Lastly, how do you think the plot hole I wrote about above gets solved? Who among Varys's conspirators can convince Prince Doran that Aegon is really Aegon?

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Couple of questions, LM. Do you know if there is to be a Arianne III release before Winds comes out? I had not heard of any planned release of new chapter before Winds, but would love to read it if is released.

Second, Why do you think Arianne would recognize Ashara if she meets her? The Princess's age when Elia and her children are are said to have died in the sack make it unlikely that she knew or would recognize Ashara if she did ever meet her.

  Hide contents

From a released chapter of Arianne in The Winds of Winter:

"I was seven when Elia died.  They say I held her daughter Rhaenys once, when I was too young to remember.  Aegon will be a stranger to me, whether true or false."  The princess paused." This along with the following quote in A Feast for Crows tells us Arianne was born in 276.

“I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown.” (AFfC 603)

The part about Arianne holding Rhaenys once but being too young to remember is important as this is a time in which we would think Ashara was in Elia's company.

Do you recall something that would suggest the two knew each other?

Lastly, how do you think the plot hole I wrote about above gets solved? Who among Varys's conspirators can convince Prince Doran that Aegon is really Aegon?

I don't know about any new spoiler chapters. Sorry, I did not mean to suggest one was coming. (Man, I hope I did not give you or anybody else reason to excited!)

What I meant was that the next time we read from Arianne's point of view, she will have met Lemore, unless Lemore is off on some mission. She knows Tyene's mum, so that will be cleared up at that point for sure. And I guess it should be considered likely that either Arianne would recognize Ashara as a Dayne (Come on, sing for me in Glenn Frey's voice... You can't hide your purple eyes.), or that Lemore would reveal herself to Arianne to help gain support from Dorne. 

[Sasha]

Rhaegar was absolutely not the kind of man able to dishonor a woman. At Harrenhall, if I do remember well, Elia was about five months pregnant. 

So much for the plot. So when Aegon was born, he thought he was going to be the promised prince. 

Lemore has dark hair and a "golden" skin. She is from the south. Remember, except if she is skilled in black or red magic, she can't hide a detail like purple eyes. When a character in the book has purple or lilac eyes, it's mentioned because NO ONE can miss that. 

If she had violet eyes, Tyrion, who is quite difficult to fool would have thought she was the mother (or a relative). But, no. He keeps asking himself. "What is she to the boy ?" He doesn't have a clue. So she have no violet eyes. She can't be Ashara. 

[TMIFairy]

9 minutes ago, Sasha said:

Rhaegar was absolutely not the kind of man able to dishonor a woman.

And you base your certainty on what?

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't know about any new spoiler chapters. Sorry, I did not mean to suggest one was coming. (Man, I hope I did not give you or anybody else reason to excited!)

LM, you have got to be careful about toying with a fan's emotions like that! Crushing hopes among desperate Martin fans is just too damn easy. Some of us are now destined for months of depression caused from unfilled hopes and dreams. 

Not really, we have had our steel tempered by past broken deadlines and mysterious NOT A BLOG posts that evaporate into the ether so as to be impervious to .... I just want to cry for a few moments.

Never mind.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What I meant was that the next time we read from Arianne's point of view, she will have met Lemore, unless Lemore is off on some mission. She knows Tyene's mum, so that will be cleared up at that point for sure. And I guess it should be considered likely that either Arianne would recognize Ashara as a Dayne (Come on, sing for me in Glenn Frey's voice... You can't hide your purple eyes.), or that Lemore would would reveal herself to Arianne to help gain support from Dorne. 

I'm tempted to do my Big Lebowski voice and tell you how i hate the Eagles, except over the years I've reluctantly grown to accept CCR isn't the only band one can listen to. Hotel California kind of grows on you. God, I'm getting old.

But I agree when Arianne and Lemore meet, it will be revealing. If only to rule out Tyene's mom.

[TMIFairy]

Is there a history of trailer chapters being changed before published? I'm curious.

As to Hotel California - the best version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgs4hrYxMBE

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

LM, you have got to be careful about toying with a fan's emotions like that! Crushing hopes among desperate Martin fans is just too damn easy. Some of us are now destined for months of depression caused from unfilled hopes and dreams. 

I am really sorry about that. Truly. 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Not really, we have had our steel tempered by past broken deadlines and mysterious NOT A BLOG posts that evaporate into the ether so as to be impervious to .... I just want to cry for a few moments.

Never mind.

 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

I'm tempted to do my Big Lebowski voice and tell you how i hate the Eagles, except over the years I've reluctantly grown to accept CCR isn't the only band one can listen to. Hotel California kind of grows on you. God, I'm getting old.

How in all seven hells can you live in San Francisco (one of the prettiest and coolest locales in the world) and not dig the Eagles? 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

But I agree when Arianne and Lemore meet, it will be revealing. If only to rule out Tyene's mom.

You suppose we'll get a Jon Connington chapter or a third Arianne chapter first? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Is there a history of trailer chapters being changed before published? I'm curious.

As to Hotel California - the best version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgs4hrYxMBE

 

I followed your link and YouTube told me it was blocked in my country. I guess the Mexicans finally agreed to pay for that f#@%!*# wall. 

I know Martin famously read an early Tyrion chapter in which the narrative suggested that chests, which turned out not to have gold for the Golden Company, contained a certain sword. That, of course was omitted. Check here...

BTW, Warsaw is nice too. 

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am really sorry about that. Truly. 

 

How in all seven hells can you live in San Francisco (one of the prettiest and coolest locales in the world) and not dig the Eagles? 

You suppose we'll get a Jon Connington chapter or a third Arianne chapter first? 

All in jest about the Eagles. The Dude in the Big Lebowski is one of my favorite characters in one of my favorite comedy movies of all time. I couldn't resist the reference. I do admit it took some time before I truly appreciated how good the Eagles really were, but that may be from my Norcal bias of all things Socal. Now, I admit to loving their music. Even if reluctantly admitting it. Don't know if I'll ever get over my preference for all things from my City, including the great bands from here. I grew up on the Dead, the Airplane, Santana, Credence, Big Brother, and the like. I was spoiled. But age hopefully takes the blinders off some of us.

Don't know about the chapter sequence. I'm really just hoping to get Winds by a year from October. I would love to have Fire and Blood at the same time. I will use the Sons of the Dragon to get me through the addiction withdrawals.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not sure if any one mentioned it and dont wanna read that many pages of responses but, Cersei Lannister mentions it to Eddard when he confronts her about the truth of her children. She responds by asking him about Ashara Dayne and her death, and whether it was for the brother Eddard slew, or the child Eddard stole. 

<snip

When you're looking at this you have to consider a few things, first and foremost where was Cersei when any of this went down?

From everything we know Cersei was at Casterly Rock from the time Jaime was named to the Kingsguard until after the war was over. She can have no first-hand knowledge of an Ashara pregnancy with conception post-Harrenhal. So really she's just repeating what she heard. It has no bearing on any baby.

Next remember that she's trying to goad Ned. It doesn't even matter if she believes the gossip she heard. 

Even Barristan is only repeating things he's heard. He wasn't at Starfall. He doesn't know what happened. He's either speculating or going on gossip. We don't have a single account that even lists a source for the information that Barry and Cersei have.

The best info we have on Ashara came from a nephew who wasn't born yet, who got it from his other aunt, who may not have been born yet or at best would have been a toddler, who must have gotten it from someone else. The George has covered the tracks well on this one.