US Politics: On Many Sides

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Absolutely, but it could also lead to what about the Washington Monument? What about Monticello? That's all we're saying. The slippery slope argument is not shitty when you can already see rumblings of it. 

So? What about them? Let's talk it out, make your case. Chances are good that you can make a very strong case to keep them. 

And if you can't - what is wrong with that? 

I went on Quora to talk about removing the statue of Lenin in Seattle, and while I personally think it's largely harmless and isn't a representation of the deep hatred that, say, Seattleites had towards the bourgeoisie, I also can recognize other people may think of it very differently. Is that so bad - to actually have that talk, instead of pearl-clutching and making sure that you don't even talk about whether or not a building is a good thing or not?

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I'm so fired up that I'm calling for hangings and giving folks their Free Speech once they are 6 feet under. My hysteria is so comparable to yours.

 

You're the one advocating people don't use their free speech to discuss something peaceably. 

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

Let's play a guessing game. Which symbolic, but ultimately inconsequential, policy gesture will Trump make on Monday to demonstrate to the alt-right that he's still their man?

Let your minds run wild. You know that he's going to do something outrageous.

I don't think Trump thinks like that, but I do think he will - albeit accidentally. He'll double down again on the 'both sides' bit and condemn things being taken down. He'll probably pardon Arpaio as well. 

[OldGimletEye]

On 8/18/2017 at 2:15 PM, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 It's history. You can't just erase the bits you don't like. 

I get the angle on the Confederate statues, I truly do. Especially those that were thrown up in the 60's as a direct response to the Civil Rights Movement. Those were essentially a middle finger to blacks and progressives. Tear those down all day. 

I honestly think the issue is ultimately a waste of time on both sides. Where does it stop? Thomas Jefferson? George Washington? I have no problem criticizing these men for their hypocrisies. Stop naming streets and schools after them. Find new objects of admiration to put on coins and moneys. All that is reasonable and workable. Taking down monuments that have stood for a century or more? Not so reasonable in my estimation.

I think all Confederate statues in public places should be taken down.

And I don’t think it follows that if you take down confederate statues, then you have to take down statues of Washington or whatever.

And the reason is this: By taking down confederate statues you acknowledge that lost cause theories are bullshit and that the reason the south went to war was to preserve slavery. And because the confederacy did in fact go to war in order to preserve slavery, their appearance in public places can only be interpreted as an overt expression of white supremacy. And as such, everyone needs to go.

[Bonnot OG]

8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I'm so fired up that I'm calling for hangings and giving folks their Free Speech once they are 6 feet under. My hysteria is so comparable to yours.

 

Being against white supremacy and Nazism is hysteria? It's ironic you're whining about the erasure of history when you willfully ignore historical proof of what nazism and white supmracy are capable of.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Kalbear said:

You're the one advocating people don't use their free speech to discuss something peaceably. 

Nice twist, but I never said that. It's interesting how you guys have shifted this argument through the course of this thread. (I'm not pointing specifically at you, Kalbear, I'm just outlining how this segment of the convo started) I believe Swordfish brought up the point that progressives have been talking about extending this out to the Founding Fathers. At first it was "where is that happening?" A couple examples were given then it's "what's so terrible about that".

 I take your point that this isn't some egregious issue that desperately needs to be addressed, but I feel the same way about the Civil war era statues. 

 

[Dr. Pepper]

19 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

So it take so the calling to take down statues of Jefferson and Washington to get Manhole fired up, but not white supmracists and Nazis  terrorizing a city and killing someone..... that speaks volumes, to me anyway.

 

oh, and removing no statues isn't erasing history. Cut that whiny white privileged garbage out.

But don't you know that not having any Hitler statues in Germany means the Holocaust has been erased?  I mean, the only reason North Koreans know the facts about how they got where they are is because they are surrounded by a bunch of Kim statues and monuments. 

Monuments displayed in celebratory ways can have just as much effect on the revision or erasing of history.  Andrew Jackson and even Van Buren are commemorated significantly more than the Native American genocide is ever discussed.  Genocide has been brought up dozens of times in these threads but most of us haven't even mentioned the one that occurred on our own continent by our own government.  Talk about erasure of history and somehow all those statues and Jackson's face on our money hasn't made us remember.

Only an idiot or a sympathizer would think that removing celebratory confederate monuments erases history.  

[Bonnot OG]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

But don't you know that not having any Hitler statues in Germany means the Holocaust has been erased?  I mean, the only reason North Koreans know the facts about how they got where they are is because they are surrounded by a bunch of Kim statues and monuments. 

Monuments displayed in celebratory ways can have just as much effect on the revision or erasing of history.  Andrew Jackson and even Van Buren are commemorated significantly more than the Native American genocide is ever discussed.  Genocide has been brought up dozens of times in these threads but most of us haven't even mentioned the one that occurred on our own continent by our own government.  Talk about erasure of history and somehow all those statues and Jackson's face on our money hasn't made us remember.

Only an idiot or a sympathizer would think that celebratory confederate monuments erases history rather than works to rewrite it.  

The world will literally end if statues are taken down. The dead sculptures will rise from the graves and start rewriting history.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Being against white supremacy and Nazism is hysteria? It's ironic you're whining about the erasure of history when you willfully ignore historical proof of what nazism and white supmracy are capable of.

So you're going to compare debating about whether or not statues should be taken down to whether or not we should be hanging our political enemies. That seems reasonable.

 

[The guy from the Vale]

4 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

The world will literally end if statues are taken down. The dead sculptures will rise from the graves and start rewriting history.

Now I want to see that movie. Can't be any worse than the apocalyptic stuff Emmerich has been pushing.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

32 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

Let's play a guessing game. Which symbolic, but ultimately inconsequential, policy gesture will Trump make on Monday to demonstrate to the alt-right that he's still their man?

Let your minds run wild. You know that he's going to do something outrageous.

Easy: Affirmative Action. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 hours ago, Sword of Doom said:

The world will literally end if statues are taken down. The dead sculptures will rise from the graves and start rewriting history.

You think it's funny, but the Lincoln Memorial is failing to find the humor in it...

 (Talk about erasing history, I'm trying to find a clip of the South Park episode Super Best Friends, wherein a statue of John Wilkes Booth shoots the Lincoln Memorial in the back of the head. Turns out that due to the depiction of Mohammad as one of the Super Best Friends in the episode, Comedy Central has pulled all video. It's like RAIIIIIIINNNNN, on your wedding day!)

 Strangely enough, the only image I can find of the Lincoln Monument in this episode is a still of Mohammed attacking it. Weird.

  https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lJVSPwf7zvM/hqdefault.jpg

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 Seems like Little Donny Two Scoops is at war with the 5 Families at this point. He's losing support on many sides. On many sides.

 http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/bannons-revenge-breitbart-reportedly-ramping-up-for-thermonuclear-war-against-against-trump/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=im&utm_tracker=1737131x84899

[Dr. Pepper]

It was stupid to hire Bannon but probably even stupider to fire him.  The dude created THE platform for America's craziest white supremacist internet trolls.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 The Committee of Arts and Humanities hides secret message in their resignation letter to Trump...

 http://boingboing.net/2017/08/18/theres-a-hidden-message-in-t.html?fk_bb

[Morpheus]

I keep seeing conflicting ideas about whether Bannon will be a problem for Trump. He is probably going back to Breitbart, but there has been some suggestion that he and Trump are still on speaking terms, so he could in effect use his power to keep Trump honest to his base. Then, obviously, there is speculation that Trump may have cut himself off at the knees with the BB audience.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

It was stupid to hire Bannon but probably even stupider to fire him.  The dude created THE platform for America's craziest white supremacist internet trolls.  

Zuckerberg might want to object.

On a more serious note, wasn't Breitbart actually created by A. Breitbart? I thought Bannon just took over after that other piece of work passed away.

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, Notone said:

Zuckerberg might want to object.

On a more serious note, wasn't Breitbart actually created by A. Breitbart? I thought Bannon just took over after that other piece of work passed away.

Oops, yes, meant to say that he ran it, not created.

Facebook operates more as a distribution network for the crazy white supremacist trolls.  It's a symbiotic relationship, that's for sure.  But Breitbart is the director.  

[Fez]

And I'm done. Just done with it all. https://www.nationaljournal.com/s/656915?unlock=GZTW3EZ94OLSYW8J

Quote

 

Trump’s decision to blame “both sides” for the violence in Charlottesville—apparently alluding to the radical “antifa” counterprotesters clashing with neo-Nazi demonstrators—also got a surprising degree of support. An automated SurveyMonkey poll found 43 percent of Americans agreeing with Trump, while 53 percent disagreed. That’s hardly an endorsement, but it was far more favorable than the outraged reaction the press conference received from journalists and leaders of his own party. In fact, the number of rank-and-file Republicans agreeing with Trump on his Charlottesville remarks (87 percent) is a bit higher than the number of Republicans who typically approve of Trump’s job performance (which usually hovers around 80 percent).

Finally, Trump’s overall job-approval rating is virtually unchanged in the aftermath of Charlottesville. Quinnipiac’s new survey found it at 39 percent, up 6 points since its last survey earlier in the month. Gallup now pegs his approval at 38 percent, inching upwards from his all-time low of 34 percent just before the Charlottesville protests. The aforementioned PBS/Marist poll also found his job approval at 38 percent. For context, that’s the same percentage who viewed him favorably on Election Day before he won the presidency.

 

 

[Morpheus]

5 minutes ago, Fez said:

And I'm done. Just done with it all. https://www.nationaljournal.com/s/656915?unlock=GZTW3EZ94OLSYW8J

 

I saw one of these polls yesterday broken down by party afffiliation and as expected Ds were overwhelmingly against him, but the dial didn't move for Rs. Even worse, those identified as indepndent were split. He was absolutely correct when he said he could shoot someone and not lose support. There is nothing capable of scandalizing these people.