US Politics: On Many Sides

[Bonnot OG]

27 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

You don't have the right insult people who have different points of view on things then you do. For some one who preaches tolerance. and so many good and positive things , your very intolerant.  

 

 

 

Yet people have the right to be nazis and preach an ideology of genocide that would kill people that look different than them or have a different cultural background? 
On one hand you have an issue with free speech if it is insulting, but you have no issue with free speech when it's promoting genocide because of bigoted and oppressive beliefs. 

And no one has to be tolerant of intolerance nor do people have to put up with blubbering centrists that constantly are sitting on their high horse because of their position of societal privilege. 

It's clear you have no clue what the hell the paradox of tolerance is. 

[James Arryn]

14 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Ah yes, the great white devils advocate coming in to help the other two that push false equivalences. 

Yeah, I enjoyed Malcolm X's autobiography too. We tried that cold water and nutmeg thing, but honestly I got nothing off it and drank like 3 gallons of basically wet sand for no good purpose. Ah, well, life is learning. 

Anyways, thanks for calling me 'great'. And Many, you are lolcats. Also, I might be loveable, but even my own mother...especially my own mother...would never call me humble.

Anyways Doom, you were making empty tautological statements and I interrupted, sorry. Please feel free.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

It's clear you have no clue what the hell the paradox of intolerance is. 

Why don't you let us all bask in the ebullient glory of your enlightened aura! Imbue us with your superior knowledge, o murderous one! Shine! SHINE HARD! 

[GAROVORKIN]

17 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Yet people have the right to be nazis and preach an ideology of genocide that would kill people that look different than them or have a different cultural background? 
On one hand you have an issue with free speech if it is insulting, but you have no issue with free speech when it's promoting genocide because of bigoted and oppressive beliefs. 

And no one has to be tolerant of intolerance nor do people have to put up with blubbering centrists that constantly are sitting on their high horse because of their position of societal privilege. 

It's clear you have no clue what the hell the paradox of intolerance is. 

No as a matter of fact im not  conversant on the Paradox of Intolerance until you mentioned it.  I look it up at some point.

[Bonnot OG]

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

Yeah, I enjoyed Malcolm X's autobiography too. We tried that cold water and nutmeg thing, but honestly I got nothing off it and drank like 3 gallons of basically wet sand for no good purpose. Ah, well, life is learning. 

Anyways, thanks for calling me 'great'. And Many, you are lolcats. Also, I might be loveable, but even my own mother...especially my own mother...would never call me humble.

Anyways Doom, you were making empty tautological statements and I interrupted, sorry. Please feel free.

Ah yes, empty to the white canadian guy that isn't in danger of nazism and white supremacy. And the same statements wouldn't have to be made if the same ignorant privileged white guys weren't sticking up for nazism and white supremacy constantly since last weekend. 

 

It's pretty evident the freeze peach crowd and the objective canadian super intellectual (sarcasm, before you let it go to your head) lead lives of privilege where violence is nothing but an abstract concept. You have never had to face it down and you are not on the "target list" of nazis and other white supremacists.

But hey, they aren't dangerous. They didn't assault people left and right with in that city. They weren't talking on discord chats coming up with plans to attack people or kill them. White supremacists are just a little wacky fringe group that have "different opinions."

[Dr. Pepper]

9 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Why don't you let us all bask in the ebullient glory of your enlightened aura! Imbue us with your superior knowledge, o murderous one! Shine! SHINE HARD! 

I recall you like simple pictures to understand things.  It just so happens that someone has created a very simple cartoon to enlighten you on this very topic.  

(I havne't vetted the reddit forum, no idea what it's about, just googled to find the first image of this cartoon)

[Bonnot OG]

11 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Why don't you let us all bask in the ebullient glory of your enlightened aura! Imbue us with your superior knowledge, o murderous one! Shine! SHINE HARD! 

With how much you stick up for nazis and white supremacists, you would think you wouldn't have an issue with murder. 


 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Freeze Peach! Lulz! So pithy and catchy and devoid of meaning. You should write a cartoon strip with that title. I bet the regressives would eat it up. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

With how much you stick up for nazis and white supremacists, you would think you wouldn't have an issue with murder. 

Only a sociopath or psychopath has no issue with murder. Which one are you?

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

BINGO! QFT. 

Which is why Germany is such an antidemocratic place. 

Point of fact, almost all democracies have fairly strict speech laws by comparison to the US, and all are considered more democratic than the US. 

[Bonnot OG]

7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Freeze Peach! Lulz! So pithy and catchy and devoid of meaning. You should write a cartoon strip with that title. I bet the regressives would eat it up. 

Lol regressive. the overused and unoriginal word by used enablers of bigotry. Yes, tell me how much of a regressive I am for standing up against nazism and white supremacy. It's ironic the most regressive people in the world try to use the word that describes them to the t, as an insult towards people that are working on social progress.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

(I havne't vetted the reddit forum, no idea what it's about, just googled to find the first image of this cartoon)

 Translation: I know nothing about this, but I'm going to jump right onboard cause Sword of Doom told me it's good!

[Dr. Pepper]

On a similar though mildly different note, anyone else following the spate of resignations?  I'm not that knowledgeable about all the various councils and advisers and such that exist and some have surprised me, though it's likely I'm surprised more because I didn't even know some of these committees existed in the first place.  I don't actually know how these groups are formed, if the groups of members are appointed.  On one hand its concerning who would take over after and what sorts of bugs they'd put into people's ears.  On the other hand, I see groups like the digital economy advisers resigning, a group made up largely of big business folks, and I see other large businesses work quickly to reject nazis from their product (OK Cupid banned crying nazi, as have a whole bunch of other social media platforms) and I'm feeling a bit optimistic.  Not much, but a tiny bit.  Maybe big business has a conscience after all, or at least profit margins can still be harmed by association with nazis.  More, I am curious if this will sway Trump in any way.  He always seems to want to impress other rich people and right now the rich people are basically calling him and his acolytes vile scumbag losers.  

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/18/trump-commerce-department-advisory-board-resignations-241791

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Which is why Germany is such an antidemocratic place. 

Point of fact, almost all democracies have fairly strict speech laws by comparison to the US, and all are considered more democratic than the US. 

Well aware of that fact, and I'm open to debate regarding changing our Free Speech laws and the practices by which we enforce them. Earlier today, I supported the post you through up regarding the ACLU pulling support to groups who choose to show up armed. I think this is an entirely reasonable condition to put on their support.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

5 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Lol regressive. the overused and unoriginal word by enablers of bigotry. Yes, tell me how much of a regressive I am for standing up against nazism and white supremacy. It's ironic the most regressive people in the world try to use the word that describes them to the t, as an insult towards people that are working on social progress.

Social Progress Through Murder! SPUTUM! Join today! You'll have to try to work the Freeze Peach meme into that somehow. Might help soften the edges a bit.

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Translation: I know nothing about this, but I'm going to jump right onboard cause Sword of Doom told me it's good!

Sorry, you're translator isn't working.  It's more "I'm not technologically adept so I don't know how to post a picture here without it connecting to another stupid photo sharing website like you constantly do so I just click the first one I saw on google images without spend an hour reading the website where it was located because it was the image I was trying to show, not the content of the site."

The Paradox of Tolerance is pretty basic shit.  The cartoon has been splashed across the interwebs for at least the past week.  

[DMC]

On 8/17/2017 at 6:09 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

This is where my fatigue comes in.  I find myself unable to not rail against those who want to rewrite fact.  But the trying-to-drain-the-ocean-with-a-bucket aspect of it all is exhausting.  Will keep fighting though.

Try teaching community college kids in the South - as someone raised in the liberal elite northeast!  It's very weird - especially when 60% of the class is minority, and the other 40% was raised on "northern aggression."

15 hours ago, Morpheus said:

The parties have flipped, the Rs own the South and all of the attendant Civil War resentment and mythologizing that comes with it, every individual Republican is not a racist, but the party has more than enough problematic policies and platforms.

Understanding the party realignment that happened during the CRM does not take too long - just simply quote LBJ after he signed the VRA.  Anyone that doesn't get it by then is just using it as a talking point anyway.

10 hours ago, Fez said:

The midterms are bigger issue though, since I think a lot of voters won't necessarily see it as referendum on Trump (lot of individual Republicans are still very popular in their states/districts)

The midterms are totally going to be a referendum on Trump.

10 hours ago, denstorebog said:

So, another round of polls is out. The whole picture isn't clear until tomorrow, but it seems pretty obvious already:

Siding with Nazis hasn't dented Trump's approval one bit. If anything, it has improved slightly.

Methinks you need to wait a bit.

9 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Ok, so board hive mind, what do we think?  Did Trump fire Bannon because of the fallout from Charlottesville?  Or because of those weird and surprisingly unflattering interviews he gave about both Trump and his supporters?  The official word is it was the latter, but the timing of all this is very strange. 

Neither.  He was gone once he hired Kelly.  It was just a matter of timing afterwards.

4 hours ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

So, can we already say that Charlottesville was the result of a White Walker invasion?

Well done.

17 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Yeah, I enjoyed Malcolm X's autobiography too. We tried that cold water and nutmeg thing, but honestly I got nothing off it and drank like 3 gallons of basically wet sand for no good purpose. Ah, well, life is learning. 

Nutmeg never worked for me either - I think he was full of shit.  But don't impugn Malcolm and/or Alex Haley!

5 hours ago, denstorebog said:

My guess? He and Trump are probably on perfectly amicable terms. Bannon wanted out, and Trump wanted to lose the baggage. Now Breitbart is going to to take up the mantle of the administration's now-disbanded 'war room' and get really dirty in going after MSM journalists and television profiles, probably on a borderline illegal level. I think this is going be extremely ugly.

Bannon's #1 priority is taking on the "globalist" generals (Kelly/Mattis/McMaster) and the Jews (Kushner/Cohn).  This is not good for the Trump administration.

[TrueMetis]

41 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

You don't have the right insult people who have different points of view on things then you do. For some one who preaches tolerance. and so many good and positive things , your very intolerant. 

The fuck happened to you caring about free speech?

38 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Again, very astute. She does not preach tolerance, she preaches selective tolerance.

Good, absolute tolerance is the surest path to no tolerance at all.

Or are you going to start talking about how we should be tolerant of FGM next?

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Translation: I know nothing about this, but I'm going to jump right onboard cause Sword of Doom told me it's good!

I know about it. Google Popper and the paradox of tolerance. To sum up - it is an axiom that a perfectly tolerant society must by its nature turn into an intolerant one because it will not protect itself against those who wish to be intolerant. It isn't a hard concept. 

Ask a member of a concentration camp if they were upset about murdering nazis. 

[James Arryn]

12 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Yet people have the right to be nazis and preach an ideology of genocide that would kill people that look different than them or have a different cultural background? 
On one hand you have an issue with free speech if it is insulting, but you have no issue with free speech when it's promoting genocide because of bigoted and oppressive beliefs. 

And no one has to be tolerant of intolerance nor do people have to put up with blubbering centrists that constantly are sitting on their high horse because of their position of societal privilege. 

It's clear you have no clue what the hell the paradox of intolerance is. 

The crux of the paradox is sort of like...well, no, let's not get too Wittgenstein up in this join, but maybe Anscombe? Not very Catholic myself, but the difference between an action and a concept/thought/word is generally where we can see one of the fundamental chasms between what we affectionately term 'liberalism' and other, more canine schools of thought. Of course, there's that middle ground you all were chatting about earlier, and I suppose you could posit that a direct call to violence is where an offensive idea becomes an offence. Not pointing fingers, btw, I actually do mean this with regards to your actual new-nazis. So, really, let them yell mud and blood or w/e their cocktail of choice, even let them declare their firm belief that some sci-if Hebrew body-snatching scenario seems improbable, and just treat them like noise.

However, if they actually start saying certain people ought to be killed, hurt, etc. than that imo can reasonably be supposed to dwell in the province of crime. Now, if/when you feel that the law enforcement is neglecting their duty there, is it cool to step in and 'intervene'? If I trusted in the infallibility and purity of purpose of any/everyone coming to that conclusion, I'd probably happily leave it in their capable vigilante hands. Short of that ideal, however, I'm afraid that history reveals a pretty clear pattern for increasingly extreme ideological and/or criminal types to be the ones with real endurance for wielding that kind of extra-legal authority of violence.

People keep thinking of the Nazis asthe permit-obsessed guys with machine guns and equestrian pants, but those chucklers got to where they got precisely through the kind of low-level street thuggery under the avowed and probably believed righteous banner of protecting freedom and sanctity of good people from the pervasive influence of the offensive but not illegal words of a detested populist political ideology with a bitterly violent past, to wit communism. Because people agreed communism was such a filthy dangerous idea that the law was unable or unwilling to police, there was a lot of approval for those courageous lads in black shirts to use a little elbow grease in reminding the damn commies where the line was, exactly. And thus we have the Nazis. 

So rather than challenging Einstein's definition of insanity, I'd prefer to err on the side of not imitating nazis in fear of nazidom. And that's not tongue in cheek...it has a real cost. Any choice in this had a cost. My own specific opinion is that if/wen the guys in Virginia preached actual violence, arrests should be made. Moreover allowing them to come to a rally dressed for a rumble was incredibly stupid, but I know Americans have greater latitude there so, *shrug*

But calling them out for their disgusting, ignorant, selfish and honestly just plain boring ideology absent violence is to be readily encouraged, and if they step a toe over the line between spouting off gross ideas and calling for gross actions, flashing lights and sirens, please.