US Politics: On Many Sides

[GAROVORKIN]

3 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

The fuck happened to you caring about free speech?

Good, absolute tolerance is the surest path to no tolerance at all.

Or are you going to start talking about how we should be tolerant of FGM next?

I simply made an observation 

Did you happen to read Dr Peppers response to it? 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Good, absolute tolerance is the surest path to no tolerance at all.

Or are you going to start talking about how we should be tolerant of FGM next?

Hell no, I'm fully against FGM. You're right, selective tolerance was poorly worded as far as insults go. I'll have to come up with something better.

[all swedes are racist]

44 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That was an amazing quip, wasn't it?

I don't buy into the alt-left label. Antifa is a lot of negative things IMO, but an equivalent to the alt-right is not one of them. The Alt-right label is an attempt to legitimize White Supremacy and Nazism. I don't believe that Antifa attempts to disguise itself in any way, certainly not in this manner. For all their faults, I don't believe they are trying to cloak themselves in a cloak of false legitimacy the same way the Alt-right does.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I am not terribly proficient at expressing my position with the written word. I agree with you on that front. I'm far better at employing a relatable image or video reference to make my point.

I also admit that politics is not my forte. My critical thinking skills are not on par with yours or say Kalbears or dmc's. Hell. as much as I despise his position, I'll admit that Sword of Doom is much better at expressing his or her beliefs or positions than I am. That said, I'm not calling anyone here a nazi, in the same manner that say a Dr. Pepper employs. I'm merely pointing out that advocating that belief is at least in part a fascist position.

To try and equate or current political situation to WWII is fallacious in my estimation. These neo-nazis have not conquered territory that is not their own. They have not erected death camps. They don't drive tanks and fly warplanes over our neighborhoods. We are not at war with them in the same sense. (I know you haven't taken that position here, but others have forwarded that comparison or equivalence.

lmao, damn, owned. point proven

but again, you claim antifa's methods are "at least in part fascist", without providing any supporting arguments as to how you arrived at that position, aside from the fact  they are radical and do not shy from the occasion use of minor violence or property damage. they are not supported by, not supportive of, the state. they are not targeting marginalized or 'otherized' groups as scapegoats, they aren't even trying to gain or wield any sort of political or administrative power.

and then this weird pedantic focus on defining nazis as strict nsdap partisans. i think it's not unreasonable to use the term 'nazi' as a convenient short hand to indicate neo-nazis, neo-confederates, and other aligned white supremacist nationalist groups or persons. 

not to dogpile or anything, but this contradiction is baffling to me

[GAROVORKIN]

16 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Lol regressive. the overused and unoriginal word by used enablers of bigotry. Yes, tell me how much of a regressive I am for standing up against nazism and white supremacy. It's ironic the most regressive people in the world try to use the word that describes them to the t, as an insult towards people that are working on social progress.

 

 

For heavens sakes Swords  give it a rest.

 

I would say that this topic is beginning to depress me , but that would an understatement.

[TrueMetis]

1 minute ago, GAROVORKIN said:

I simply made an observation

You also literally said he didn't have the right to say something, this being shortly after you said that actual fucking Nazis did have the right to spew their hatred.

Quote

Did you happen to read Dr Peppers response to it? 

What about it? What does that have to do with your weirdness of *hate speech is fine but being rude is a line to far!*

[James Arryn]

26 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Ah yes, empty to the white canadian guy that isn't in danger of nazism and white supremacy. And the same statements wouldn't have to be made if the same ignorant privileged white guys weren't sticking up for nazism and white supremacy constantly since last weekend. 

 

It's pretty evident the freeze peach crowd and the objective canadian super intellectual (sarcasm, before you let it go to your head) lead lives of privilege where violence is nothing but an abstract concept. You have never had to face it down and you are not on the "target list" of nazis and other white supremacists.

But hey, they aren't dangerous. They didn't assault people left and right with in that city. They weren't talking on discord chats coming up with plans to attack people or kill them. White supremacists are just a little wacky fringe group that have "different opinions."

You know what they say about assumptions, right? Well, to get a tad personal, unless it starts with 3 I'm willing to bet the number of scars my super intellectual body (not sarcastic) has thanks to scraps with skinheads er...Trumps yours. But I mean there's nothing whatsoever poetically articulated about the point some have made with regards to Nietche's abyss nod than the fact that you came to conclusions about me, my experience and the foundation of my ideals based on my skin colour...actually I'm part native, but it's not really obvious...and my Maplehood. And this from the person wanting society's trust on when, where and to whom violence should be administered. Lol, you're precious, but I think imma withhold that from you for the nonce.

[GAROVORKIN]

6 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

You also literally said he didn't have the right to say something, this being shortly after you said that actual fucking Nazis did have the right to spew their hatred.

What about it? What does that have to do with your weirdness of *hate speech is fine but being rude is a line to far!*

Did you happen to see what she called Manhole ? No I guess you didn't.  I didn't like what she said.  You want split hairs on this , be my guest . Im done for now.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

Wow, MSNBC beat out Fox News on Wednesday for number of viewers

http://www.nola.com/tv/index.ssf/2017/08/msnbc_becomes_most-watched_cab.html

I had no idea that MSNBC was doing so well.  I'm not a fan of the network, but it is a bit heartwarming to know that perhaps the liberal electorate is watching more news these days.

[Dr. Pepper]

4 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Did you happen to see what she called Manhole ? No I guess you didn't.  I didn't like what she said.  You want split hairs on this , be my guest . Im done for now.

 

I called you the same thing, too, buddy.  

It's so strange that you're upset over people being identified as nazi sympathizers but completely defending nazis rallying.  I wasn't requesting a permit to exercise my freedom of speech.  Only accurately describing the behaviors of a couple individuals on some random forum for a defunct book series.

The things people defend.  smh.  Then they wail and wonder why they get labels.  

[TrueMetis]

4 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Did you happen to see what she called Manhole ? No I guess you didn't.  I didn't like what she said.  You want split hairs on this , be my guest . Im done for now.

 

You're not very good at logic are you? You said two contradictory things, how about you focus on that since that's the thing I'm trying to bring your attention to.

[James Arryn]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Wow, MSNBC beat out Fox News on Wednesday for number of viewers

http://www.nola.com/tv/index.ssf/2017/08/msnbc_becomes_most-watched_cab.html

I had no idea that MSNBC was doing so well.  I'm not a fan of the network, but it is a bit heartwarming to know that perhaps the liberal electorate is watching more news these days.

The really sad, weird totally depressing thing is that, in spite of having a brain and all, I actually feel some kind of 'yes!' feeling when the occasional Fox person actually breaks pattern an calls Trump out, whereas MSNBC just feels like i get what I expect. I don't really watch MSNBC much, and Fox never, but YouTube seems to believe I'm mostly wanting to see ______ DESTROY or CRUSH or similarly all capped refutation...I get a bit wordy when I'm a bit drunk...of anything Trump related, an I guess they have my number. But the Fox ones, even when imo either pandering or posturing to pretend objectivity...I still give them extra credit, I guess like how statements against interest get more testimonial validity. 

[all swedes are racist]

1 hour ago, GAROVORKIN said:

You don't have the right insult people who have different points of view on things then you do. For some one who preaches tolerance. and so many good and positive things , your very intolerant.  

 

 

 

lmao

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

God, I'm drawing a blank, but back in poli-sci there was lots of talk about this particular kind of ideology that promoted the idea that the world was a violent political struggle and that people had to choose a side and back it up with violent action, no room for the cowards afraid to pick sides...god, it's on the edge of my tongue. Face-ism? Nope, that wasn't it. Fastim? Gah. Don't worry, I'll get there soon. Meanwhile, here's a nice Hitler quote to pass the time;

“He who would live must fight. He who doesn't wish to fight in this world, where permanent struggle is the law of life, has not the right to exist.”

never had the chance to take those poli sci classes, but wondering if maybe you didn't stick around for all of them? pretty sure there was a little bit more to it than that... 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

36 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

but again, you claim antifa's methods are "at least in part fascist", without providing any supporting arguments as to how you arrived at that position, aside from the fact  they are radical and do not shy from the occasion use of minor violence or property damage. they are not supported by, not supportive of, the state. they are not targeting marginalized or 'otherized' groups as scapegoats, they aren't even trying to gain or wield any sort of political or administrative power.

and then this weird pedantic focus on defining nazis as strict nsdap partisans. i think it's not unreasonable to use the term 'nazi' as a convenient short hand to indicate neo-nazis, neo-confederates, and other aligned white supremacist nationalist groups or persons. 

not to dogpile or anything, but this contradiction is baffling to me

 I don't believe the sort of violence that Antifa employs to be minor, honestly. Yeah, they aren't packing firearms (as of yet, I believe that will be coming in short order) but if you look at some of the video from the two Berkeley riots, they employ some really brutal and well thought out violence. My view on this is likely shaded by first hand accounts of a couple of acquaintances of mine who both work on campus. I'm not meaning to equate them to Alt-Right or neo-nazis and white supremacists. I'm in complete agreement with you on that point. The one point of comparison that I believe can be made is the willingness to use violence. it seems to be fairly central to their core view and ideology.

 Also agree with you on the use of language here. Nazi fits the bill for these douchebags as evidenced by their chants, signs, symbols, flags and actions on Friday night and Saturday. Not sure why I was clinging to that particular point when this convo began on Friday night, but needless to say, I was wrong on that point. That could and should reasonably be described as pedantic, for sure.  

 

/Oh yeah, and as a quick aside, me not being as astute or able as you in this particular arena does not make it acceptable for you or anyone else to refer to me as a dipshit. If that's your opinion, you have every right to express it, but once having gone down that road, don't expect anything outside of snark and shit throwing in return from me. If that's the sort of discourse you're looking for, have at, but  if I had your mother's email, I'd tell her what you were up to. 

 

 

[James Arryn]

9 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

lmao

never had the chance to take those poli sci classes, but wondering if maybe you didn't stick around for all of them? pretty sure there was a little bit more to it than that... 

I'm almost sure you're right.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

31 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

What about it? What does that have to do with your weirdness of *hate speech is fine but being rude is a line to far!*

That's a call for civil discourse, not a suppression of Free Speech. Surely you can parse those two things.

[DMC]

30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I know about it. Google Popper and the paradox of tolerance. To sum up - it is an axiom that a perfectly tolerant society must by its nature turn into an intolerant one because it will not protect itself against those who wish to be intolerant. It isn't a hard concept. 

Ask a member of a concentration camp if they were upset about murdering nazis. 

Actually, it is a hard concept - specifically he believed intolerance can be checked by public opinion and rational argument, and only afterwards must it be checked.  Rawls has a similar caveat based on self-preservation.  Have we reached that point?  Everybody obviously has strong opinions on the subject, but if we're basing it on public opinion and self-preservation, no, we most certainly have not reached the point in which intolerance of the intolerant is acceptable.  That's not necessarily my opinion, but what I think Popper and Rawls would say at this juncture.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

26 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

The really sad, weird totally depressing thing is that, in spite of having a brain and all, I actually feel some kind of 'yes!' feeling when the occasional Fox person actually breaks pattern an calls Trump out, whereas MSNBC just feels like i get what I expect. I don't really watch MSNBC much, and Fox never, but YouTube seems to believe I'm mostly wanting to see ______ DESTROY or CRUSH or similarly all capped refutation...I get a bit wordy when I'm a bit drunk...of anything Trump related, an I guess they have my number. But the Fox ones, even when imo either pandering or posturing to pretend objectivity...I still give them extra credit, I guess like how statements against interest get more testimonial validity. 

Totally onboard with this sentiment right now. I literally can't watch Fox News. It just pisses me off to a degree that is unhealthy. The one exception to this is Chris Wallace. He rails on Trump in a really measured way, and manages to call him out using a conservative point of view. He consistently catches other conservative politicians out on their defenses of him by using their own ideology against them. It's way more entertaining than the echo chamber criticisms that come from MSNBC more often than not. It's the same reason I enjoy listening to David Frum. These two are actually as critical of the Right at the moment as they are of the Left.

[GAROVORKIN]

25 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Wow, MSNBC beat out Fox News on Wednesday for number of viewers

http://www.nola.com/tv/index.ssf/2017/08/msnbc_becomes_most-watched_cab.html

I had no idea that MSNBC was doing so well.  I'm not a fan of the network, but it is a bit heartwarming to know that perhaps the liberal electorate is watching more news these days.

Which Is why I  watch BBC News .

 

[TrueMetis]

8 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That's a call for civil discourse, not a suppression of Free Speech. Surely you can parse those two things.

I don't know him, so I'm not going to assume he meant something that's different from a plain text reading of what he said.

[DMC]

23 minutes ago, r'hllor's red lobster said:

lmao

never had the chance to take those poli sci classes, but wondering if maybe you didn't stick around for all of them? pretty sure there was a little bit more to it than that... 

You've all convinced me.  We're about to apply to classes we want to teach in the next year.  I'm totally gonna write up syllabi for Fascism 101,2, and 3.  Because THAT'S what will be useful for students.