Okay, NOW Have We Seen The Most Wildly Unrealistic Thing Ever on GoT???

[Lord Okra]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If it was to convince Dany she could have just flown North on Drogon and see for herself, like she ends up doing.  Much easier and safe for everyone including the dragons.  

The show has made it clear that Cersei controls Jamie, so again, the idea that Jamie can control his sister now that she is queen is stupid.  he has never been able to control her before, why now?  Stupid.

What entire realm are you talking about?  The Vale is already committed.  The riverlands are leaderless and they already fought for the Starks once, so they won't need convincing.  The Reach just bent the knee to Dany, Dorne is already her ally.  So that leaves the Westerlands and the Stormlands?  We will leave Euron out of it for the time being, but suffice it to say a kinslaying nut isn't going to care about the army of the dead either.

Here we go.

It isn't about convincing just one person......and esp not Cersie.

It is about convincing the entire REALM.  There will be lots of "Kingdoms" represented in the meeting.

Did you see that Sansa got a letter last episode inviting her to attend?  Do you think the Vale got one?  Basically, I'm sure every leader got one asking them to come see.....

They are going to TRY to get every person they can on board.  That's the purpose of the mission......on top of convincing Jamie....who leads the armies of everything Cersie controls.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

They didn't ask him to survive in the North they just asked him to run back to Eastwatch.  Did you want them to like hold a race to decide who was the fastest among them? Or is so hard to believe that they deemed him the fastest because happened to be the youngest of the group and looked be in great physical shape.

And we're back to plot holes.  How far are they from Eastwatch?  Is the army of the dead like literally camped over the next hill, a couple miles away and nobody noticed it?  Or have they been trudging along North of the wall for a few days before they ran into the oh so convenient 'scouting party'?  If the entire army of the dead is only a long run away.....why didn't anyone else notice them?  Tormund said he has scouts.  Or, if they are several days away, we're back to Gendry should be dead.

Look, if you think the plot worked, that's okay.  I think it may be as the OP said, the dumbest and worst executed plotline to date.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Here we go.

It isn't about convincing just one person......and esp not Cersie.

It is about convincing the entire REALM.  There will be lots of "Kingdoms" represented in the meeting.

Did you see that Sansa got a letter last episode inviting her to attend?  Do you think the Vale got one?  Basically, I'm sure every leader got one asking them to come see.....

They are going to TRY to get every person they can on board.  That's the purpose of the mission......on top of convincing Jamie....who leads the armies of everything Cersie controls.

Sansa getting a letter from Cersei is itself incredibly stupid.

But, I just outlined that the only areas that are not already aligned with Jon and Dany are the Westerlands the Stormlands and Euron.  So, again, it falls flat.  They have already 4 of 7 kingdoms and would simply have had to fly up to KL and demand Cersei be surrendered and they would have 6 of 7.

[lancerman]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If it was to convince Dany she could have just flown North on Drogon and see for herself, like she ends up doing.  Much easier and safe for everyone including the dragons.  

The show has made it clear that Cersei controls Jamie, so again, the idea that Jamie can control his sister now that she is queen is stupid.  he has never been able to control her before, why now?  Stupid.

What entire realm are you talking about?  The Vale is already committed.  The riverlands are leaderless and they already fought for the Starks once, so they won't need convincing.  The Reach just bent the knee to Dany, Dorne is already her ally.  So that leaves the Westerlands and the Stormlands?  We will leave Euron out of it for the time being, but suffice it to say a kinslaying nut isn't going to care about the army of the dead either.

Jon struggled to get the Northerners to fight the freakin Bolton's to avenge the Starks. Right now, most of the Northerners are banging around over petty politics over who runs the North and why they aren't assimilating land from traitors who sided with the Bolton's. Nobody in the Vale believes a single thing about an army of the dead. Some of the knights there have heard Jon go on monologues about it, but they have no proof and are only committed to Sansa. Sansa herself is wavering on that and debating whether it's worth it to listen to Jon or go on the offensive against Cersei. 

Those are Jon's closest ally's. 

Dany has Highgarden and some of the Ironborn. Dorne is up in the air. 

Dany wasn't even about to believe Jon until she saw it. Dany's council was telling her NOT to go. That same council was someone who actually trusted Jon. 

Jon had trouble getting everyone at the WALL onboard a few seasons ago.

Sorry as much as people like Jon, he starts losing credibility with people babbling on about an army of the dead.

[Lord Okra]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sansa getting a letter from Cersei is itself incredibly stupid.

But, I just outlined that the only areas that are not already aligned with Jon and Dany are the Westerlands the Stormlands and Euron.  So, again, it falls flat.  They have already 4 of 7 kingdoms and would simply have had to fly up to KL and demand Cersei be surrendered and they would have 6 of 7.

Oh, so there is no hope to convince Jamie?

Funny, cause I'm pretty sure Jamie will be convinced and Cersie wlll lose her general.

And you keep harping on they should have taken KL.  Of course, they have had about 4 convos on screen explaining why they won't just attack KL.  "Queen of the ashes" ring a bell??? Nah, you aren't watching the show obviously or you are simply not paying attention.

Like I said, you have to ignore half the show in order to make most of these complaints.

[El Guapo]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

And we're back to plot holes.  How far are they from Eastwatch?  Is the army of the dead like literally camped over the next hill, a couple miles away and nobody noticed it?  Or have they been trudging along North of the wall for a few days before they ran into the oh so convenient 'scouting party'?  If the entire army of the dead is only a long run away.....why didn't anyone else notice them?  Tormund said he has scouts.  Or, if they are several days away, we're back to Gendry should be dead.

Look, if you think the plot worked, that's okay.  I think it may be as the OP said, the dumbest and worst executed plotline to date.

This is not a plot hole. How far away was the party from Eastwatch? Who knows. But it was obviously close enough that someone could run back to it in a matter of hours. But apparently you need a little scroll on the bottom of the screen to let you know exactly how many miles they are from the Wall in order for you to believe that this is possible.  Honestly there are many many things one could complain about this episode.  I am sorry this isn't one of them.  This is nitpicking and complaining for the sake of nitpicking and complaining.

[Lord Okra]

1 minute ago, lancerman said:

Jon struggled to get the Northerners to fight the freakin Bolton's to avenge the Starks. Right now, most of the Northerners are banging around over petty politics over who runs the North and why they aren't assimilating land from traitors who sided with the Bolton's. Nobody in the Vale believes a single thing about an army of the dead. Some of the knights there have heard Jon go on monologues about it, but they have no proof and are only committed to Sansa. Sansa herself is wavering on that and debating whether it's worth it to listen to Jon or go on the offensive against Cersei. 

Those are Jon's closest ally's. 

Dany has Highgarden and some of the Ironborn. Dorne is up in the air. 

Dany wasn't even about to believe Jon until she saw it. Dany's council was telling her NOT to go. That same council was someone who actually trusted Jon. 

Jon had trouble getting everyone at the WALL onboard a few seasons ago.

Sorry as much as people like Jon, he starts losing credibility with people babbling on about an army of the dead.

Exactly, Jon already nearly got destroyed because people didn't believe him about Mance's army......The Nights Watch no less.

He has to get as much support as he can.  Dany was being stubborn.  So....they come up with a desperate plan.....stupid plan.....to get the "proof" that the threat is real.

Why?  Because Jon KNOWS he must convince as many as he can.

If he can't convince Cersie.....maybe he can convince Jamie......or whoever else is still left in some form of leadership.

But, if you ignore that people from around the realm have been invited and the goal is to unite the ENTIRE REALM (as much as feasible) in order to defeat the WW (which is all in the show really) then you can complain about this or that......

And all half these posters are here for is to complain.  They ignore half of each episode so they can complain.

[Cas Stark]

8 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Jon struggled to get the Northerners to fight the freakin Bolton's to avenge the Starks. Right now, most of the Northerners are banging around over petty politics over who runs the North and why they aren't assimilating land from traitors who sided with the Bolton's. Nobody in the Vale believes a single thing about an army of the dead. Some of the knights there have heard Jon go on monologues about it, but they have no proof and are only committed to Sansa. Sansa herself is wavering on that and debating whether it's worth it to listen to Jon or go on the offensive against Cersei. 

Those are Jon's closest ally's. 

Dany has Highgarden and some of the Ironborn. Dorne is up in the air. 

Dany wasn't even about to believe Jon until she saw it. Dany's council was telling her NOT to go. That same council was someone who actually trusted Jon. 

Jon had trouble getting everyone at the WALL onboard a few seasons ago.

Sorry as much as people like Jon, he starts losing credibility with people babbling on about an army of the dead.

Jon is really stupid in the show, absolutely.  He's a raving, suicidal madman who no one should follow.

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Oh, so there is no hope to convince Jamie?

Funny, cause I'm pretty sure Jamie will be convinced and Cersie wlll lose her general.

And you keep harping on they should have taken KL.  Of course, they have had about 4 convos on screen explaining why they won't just attack KL.  "Queen of the ashes" ring a bell??? Nah, you aren't watching the show obviously or you are simply not paying attention.

Like I said, you have to ignore half the show in order to make most of these complaints.

No, there is no hope to convince Cersei, and convincing Jamie will do nothing to convince Cersei because she has never listened to him.

I already explained how stupid is the idea they need to siege KL.  They don't.  It is run by a nutter, murder, kinslaying, kingslayer, incest breeding blasphemer.  Realistically, Cersei is only keeping the peace through massive violence and oppression.  Dany just has to say "here I am, your queen is a nut, send her out and all is well" and that would happen.  Because NO ONE in the show should be loyal to Cersei, not even the Lannister bannermen.

[Lord Okra]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Jon is really stupid in the show, absolutely.  He's a raving, suicidal madman who no one should follow.

He is the hero.

Raving, suicidal madman......

Why do you watch a show where you hate everything about the lead characters and everything about the plot and story?

And you call him stupid?

ha ha

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

This is not a plot hole. How far away was the party from Eastwatch? Who knows. But it was obviously close enough that someone could run back to it in a matter of hours. But apparently you need a little scroll on the bottom of the screen to let you know exactly how many miles they are from the Wall in order for you to believe that this is possible.  Honestly there are many many things one could complain about this episode.  I am sorry this isn't one of them.  This is nitpicking and complaining for the sake of nitpicking and complaining.

Its a good point though, if the army of the dead is that close to the wall then those on the wall would be able to see them.

Either way, the way the episode was directed suggested the band were trecking for about a day or more until they met the army of the dead. Even when Gendry is running back he's running towards the wall.. but you can't see the wall! So how far away is it?! There are a number of basic storytelling elements there that can only be described as flaws. 

They should have known the teleportation thing would crop up this episode, but they added bits like Gendry which only made the problems worse. 

 

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

This is not a plot hole. How far away was the party from Eastwatch? Who knows. But it was obviously close enough that someone could run back to it in a matter of hours. But apparently you need a little scroll on the bottom of the screen to let you know exactly how many miles they are from the Wall in order for you to believe that this is possible.  Honestly there are many many things one could complain about this episode.  I am sorry this isn't one of them.  This is nitpicking and complaining for the sake of nitpicking and complaining.

It's bad storytelling.  There must be almost a dozen deus ex machina super convenient elements in the segment.  They are close enough to Eastwatch that Gendry can run back, but far enough that no scouts noticed the army of the dead.  That's some plot sweet spot.  They happen to luckily capture a group where all but one can be killed by killing the WW, AWESOME!  They got their wight after all.  Then, they're stranded on a lake in the frozen tundra but the lake water isn't really frozen....so the dead can't cross.  Until it freezes again.  Because wights can't function in water, except when they dive down to put chains they got from somewhere on a dragon.  And then there is Benjen out of nowhere.  I mean seriously, the whole thing was fucking ridiculous from beginning to end.  

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

He is the hero.

Raving, suicidal madman......

Why do you watch a show where you hate everything about the lead characters and everything about the plot and story?

And you call him stupid?

ha ha

I want to know the end.  Since I'm not getting the end from creator I must suffer through the show to find out how it ends for the main characters.  That's it.  

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, ramla said:

I don't think GRRM has anything to do with D&D's poor writing, pacing and or plotting.

Well, my point is that indeed D&D are not up to par writers, and they cannot handle criticism well either. The director who did BatB was not asked to come back. Reading his interview about the issues he had to direct it is a likely hint why he either didn't want to or wasn't asked to return.

But there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that it partly has to do with not spoiling plot twists of tWoW. The nearer they got to post-aDwD plots in the series (while others wee still on their aFfC plot or even aSoS) we get D&D saying that some of the paths to the endgame may be different. George concurs this. This then becomes "endgame will be the same" between S5 and S6. By the time that George apologized publically for not meeting  his deadline jan 2016, S6 is in the editing and cutting rooms in order to be aired a few months later and D&D have to start writing S7. That's when D&D even went as far as to say that the endgame may be in the same vain, and in other words might be different too. And George definitely says "books are books, show is show." We haven't had a "when George told us" anymore for this season. When S8 will be filmed and aired is a question mark, other than NCW saying he expects to be filming again in October. The message changed of how post-aDwD would be handled season per season and we know that George believed he'd be done by Jan 2016, once he stopped doing his once per season script.

Meanwhile you can see a slowing of the northern and Wall plotline in S4. They stalled stuff immensely there. Stannis' fate in S5 is the one described of the Pink Letter, with Shyreen's and Selyse's jammed into it. Jaime was not gonna have anything to do in S5, other than be in KL, until Cogman suggested they could send him on a mission to Dorne. By their own admission they never planned to do Dorne at all. Interviews with our chatty costumer, director interviews of filming in the museum, and the sand snake actrices all indicate that Dorne was written and jammed in after the rest was already written for S5. And they jumped on it as a vanity project for Indira Varma and give Jaime somethign to do. But Jaime had loads to do in aFfC and in aDwD we have one more chapter that leaves his fate a cliffhanger. But they delayed that, and still got him back to KL, but at a point where they could still decide at the start of S7 that he turns his back on Cersei right there and then. Now, let's say that hypothetically Jaime dies in the first half of aDwD? Or that he's in fact already dead and hanged and we'll learn it in tWoW, Brienne I? Then you can understand why they delayed Jaime and we don't have an LS.

But I totally agree that this is not the sole issue, nor does it make George responsible of the writing flaws of D&D after S4. George's writing responsibility is to the books, and it was D&Ds responsibility to come up with a plan for post-publication plot long before they even got that far, not just plotwise, but writing team-wise. After all, they might have hoped like George that tWoW was published by S6's airing, but certainly aDoS would have been an issue. And their personal flaws incapicated them to deal with this adequately.

[Lord Okra]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

No, there is no hope to convince Cersei, and convincing Jamie will do nothing to convince Cersei because she has never listened to him.

I already explained how stupid is the idea they need to siege KL.  They don't.  It is run by a nutter, murder, kinslaying, kingslayer, incest breeding blasphemer.  Realistically, Cersei is only keeping the peace through massive violence and oppression.  Dany just has to say "here I am, your queen is a nut, send her out and all is well" and that would happen.  Because NO ONE in the show should be loyal to Cersei, not even the Lannister bannermen.

Here you are with the Cersie crap again.

Nobody on the show trusts Cersie.  They are trying to convince Jamie because he is the reasonable one and he is the one who actually (so far) leads all of Cersie's ground forces.

So, if we can convince Jamie then he won't lead Cersie's armies against us from the rear while we are gone.....maybe he even takes the remaining forces and marches them north.

Or maybe we can convince the remaining Lords of the Reach and Dorne and the Stormlands and the Vale and the Riverlands......

Maybe Edmure shows his face at this meeting.  Maybe SweetRobin shows up.

If any of them do......your plot hole is filled in with cement.  Your stupid mission talk ends up sounding stupid....because you jumped the gun.

 

[Lord Okra]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I want to know the end.  Since I'm not getting the end from creator I must suffer through the show to find out how it ends for the main characters.  That's it.  

Then stop watching for 2 years and then stream it over a weekend.

Or watch a recap on youtube in two years.

If all you wanted to know was the end then you'd just wait for the end and watch it.

But what you really want to do is rail against the show week in and week out.

 

 

[El Guapo]

2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Its a good point though, if the army of the dead is that close to the wall then those on the wall would be able to see them.

Either way, the way the episode was directed suggested the band were trecking for about a day or more until they met the army of the dead. Even when Gendry is running back he's running towards the wall.. but you can't see the wall! So how far away is it?! There are a number of basic storytelling elements there that can only be described as flaws. 

They should have known the teleportation thing would crop up this episode, but they added bits like Gendry which only made the problems worse. 

 

Just for the sake of argument let say the party was 15-20 miles away from the Wall.  Why would the people at the Wall be able to see them ? Especially given that there are hills and mountains between the army of the dead and the Wall.

I agree with the teleportation thing was ridiculous. But to me that issue was only regarding the raven getting to Eastwatch to Dragonstome and Dany flying back. That should have been addressed with a tleast a line of dialogue and I stated a page or two back. I see no timing issue whatsoever with Gendry's run back to the Wall.

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

He is the hero.

Raving, suicidal madman......

Why do you watch a show where you hate everything about the lead characters and everything about the plot and story?

And you call him stupid?

ha ha

He's totally stupid and incompetent.  He wasn't able to convince his family's bannermen to join him, Davos and pint size Mormont did it for him.  Then he immediately alienates those same treacherous lords by flitting off to Dragonstone with nobody but Davos and more red shirts.  They lords are already sick of him and want to depose him.  Stupid and incompetent.  Then goes to Dragonstone, raving about the army of the dead and if not for Tyrion Dany would have him in a cell.  More stupidity.  Then, instead of going back to WF to give some updates, hope, dragonglass, and strenghten his hold on the North, nope, wight hunt.  And then, he shows his suicidal tendencies twice in the battle.  And then he already showed he is suicidal and a terrible leader in the Battle of the Bastards.  

So, yeah, he's stupid and incompetent.  this is what the show show's.  What the show tells is that he's a hero.  Because the show sucks now.

[El Guapo]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's bad storytelling.  There must be almost a dozen deus ex machina super convenient elements in the segment.  They are close enough to Eastwatch that Gendry can run back, but far enough that no scouts noticed the army of the dead.  They happen to luckily capture a group where all but one can be killed by killing the WW, AWESOME!  They got their wight after all.  Then, they're stranded on a lake in the frozen tundra but the lake water isn't really frozen....so the dead can't cross.  Until it freezes again.  Because wights can't function in water, except when they dive down to put chains they got from somewhere on a dragon.  And then there is Benjen out of nowhere.  I mean seriously, the whole thing was fucking ridiculous from beginning to end.  

You are moving the goalposts again. I already stated there are many many valid issues with the episode that should be criticized. I don't think Gendry being able to run back to Eastwatch was one of them and that is the only one I have been discussing.

[Col Cinders]

33 minutes ago, Lord Okra said:

Here we go.

It isn't about convincing just one person......and esp not Cersie.

It is about convincing the entire REALM.  There will be lots of "Kingdoms" represented in the meeting.

Did you see that Sansa got a letter last episode inviting her to attend?  Do you think the Vale got one?  Basically, I'm sure every leader got one asking them to come see.....

They are going to TRY to get every person they can on board.  That's the purpose of the mission......on top of convincing Jamie....who leads the armies of everything Cersie controls.

The letter sent to the twins was addressed "occupant"