Jon's poor battle record

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Haskelltier said:

Lets take this point by point:

Castle Black: He had around 50 men and won the fight against the attackers from the south. After that, he had 10-thousands of Wildlings on the other side of the Wall against his small pile of around 30 Night Watch Brothers, who survived the attack. I think it's fair to say, that nobody could have defend the Wall with these few men against such a mass of attackers. Mance could have easily dispatch 5 groups of climbers, who could have climbed the Wall and who could have attacked the remaining Black Brothers at Castle Black on top of the wall. After occupying the top of the wall, mammoths and giants could have easily destroyed the gate and the battle would have been won by storming the castle. There is nothing you could have done against this. Negotiation was the only chance to get a better result and he took it. I think this was the best outcome one could hope for under the given circumstances.

Hardhome: The situation was similar in Hardhome. He only had a small group of black brothers in Hardhome because he wanted to negotiate with the wildlings and the wildlings wouldn't have allowed more of his men in the village. The negotiation went well and then we have a surprise attack of wights which outnumbered the remaining wildlings. The wildlings fought on there own, Jon and his few men tried as best as possible to rescue as many men, women and children as possible. I think nobody could have get a considerably better result than Jon.

Winterfell: Jon did a poor job here. Maybe because he wanted to rescue his brother, maybe because he had lost his will to live when he was stabbed and resurrected and only found it back in the middle of the fight. But I think the main reason was that the storywritter wanted it that way to get the most action out of it and to get the desired plot.

Beyond the Wall: I think everyone agrees that this mission was complete bullshit and that it was only done because the showrunners demanded it. And of course everything happened the way it was because the showrunner wanted it (only one dead side character, the resurrected dragon, last minute rescue, teleporting ravens/dragons and so on). I think no battle commander could have done better when the showrunner demanded a specific mission with a specific outcome.

 

So to summarize everything: I think the main reason why every battle with Jon went the way it went was because the showrunner wanted action and an exiting battle with a specific outcome. Therefore Jon had to act like a fool in some scenes to get him in desperate situations and so on. I think nobody can win a fight against the storywriter.

The thing is this story (book & show) is, or at it least, it has been, a character driven story. So the writers need to look at character motivations, reasoning, attributes and personality, first, and then write events based on that. But, like you said, I guess the show is now an event driven story, so characters need to act in such ways that those events happen.

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, Haskelltier said:

Because the Lord of Light demands it!

Oh, sorry, wrong line, I mean, because the plot demands it!

I think this can be extended to a lot of characters. Tyrion's "clever plots" are rather bad. Jaime charging a dragon is the action of a madman. Jaime diving like a fish in full plate to not get caught. Arya and Sansas talks and behavior in Winterfell and so on. That's all bad storytelling and it's only done to get exiting scenes and shocking moments, while the main characters and the viewer's favorites wear thick plot armor.

So do you think this show will have lasting appeal?  I'm worried that it won't.  Another show will come along with more gratuitous nudity, blood, and special effects and our favorite show will be soon forgotten.  

A show that tells a good story will have timeless appeal.  One that depends on shock value won't.

[falcotron]

Why do people even create threads like this?

Nobody actually wants to discuss tactics. If you're lucky, you get a few bad jokes on the first page. Beyond that, what you get is three groups of people saying the same thing over and over:

1. Everything Jon ever did is evil, and also stupid, because Jon is a poopyhead, because I'm on a different team. Jon should be tortured to death slowly for the rest of the show or I'm not watching.
2. Everything Jon ever did is brilliant and perfect, because Jon is teh hero, because I'm on Team Jon. (Or, alternatively: Everything [other character who nobody's even mentioned] ever did is evil, and also stupid, because I'm on Team Jon.) Jon should live happily ever after with whichever woman he wants as his Queen.
3. Everything on the show is stupid because it's the worst show ever and D&D are deliberately trying to make it bad and also they're stupid and that's why I spend my entire life watching it and chatting about it.

And what's the point? Are you really hoping that someone will read your post and say, "Oh, I was on Team Tyrion for the last 6 years, but now that you pointed out how Jon is an ideal example of everything right about humanity, I realize that it's actually Tyrion who's a poopyhead and I'm going to join Team Jon instead"?

[Zumbs]

14 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's obvious at this point that Jon is not a good battle field commander.  Let's take a look at his record.

• Castle Black.  Jon lost that battle.  Mance Rayder was about to win until Stannis Baratheon came along and pulled Jon's bacon out of the fire. 
• Winterfell.  Jon lost this battle to Ramsay.  Ramsay was proven the better battle commander.  He bested Jon on the  battlefield.  Littlefinger came to his rescue and bailed him out.  It's thanks to Littleinger that Jon still has his skin.
• Beyond the Wall.  Jon was losing the battle against the wights.  Dany and Her dragons came to the rescue and got them out. 

Jon is not good at anything except swinging a sword.  I don't see a place for Jon after the war with the Night's King is won.  Dany is much better at ruling and at leading than Jon.  She should have the iron throne.  A heroic death while taking down the Night's King would be a fitting way for Jon to die. 

And yet, neither of those are Jons biggest mistake.

Mance Rayder had 100,000 wildlings marching on the wall to escape the white walkers. Only 5,000 made it south of the wall. The main reason was that Mance was stupid enough to trust Jon and Jon betrayed that trust. His "honor" caused the death 95,000 human beings that could have manned the wall (and could have crushed that nasty Bolton like a bug). Now he has just 10,000 warriors to protect the North in its entirety.

It is very much Jon. He has a lot of heart and courage, and people around him come to love him. But he isn't very good at strategy and diplomacy.

[Skills]

Hard to argue against some of the scenarios he has put himself in....but I never took him as some sort of great general or strategist.  Yes, he is a good swordsman, but his best attribute is his ability to rally/unite others.  That, and he always tries to do the right thing.  I think the show has tried to highlight this in contrast to other "great" commanders (ie, Stannis) who may have been excellent tacticians but were generally assholes to everybody. 

[Haskelltier]

Quote

The thing is this story (book & show) is, or at it least, it has been, a character driven story. So the writers need to look at character motivations, reasoning, attributes and personality, first, and then write events based on that. But, like you said, I guess the show is now an event driven story, so characters need to act in such ways that those events happen.

I have the same impression and I don't like how the show is developing right now, because it becomes more and more difficult for me to get a emotional connecting to the characters and the story. And this cannot be fixed by nice effects, huge battle scenes and top quality CGI-dragons.

Quote

So do you think this show will have lasting appeal?  I'm worried that it won't.  Another show will come along with more gratuitous nudity, blood, and special effects and our favorite show will be soon forgotten.

That is definitely possible.

Quote

A show that tells a good story will have timeless appeal.  One that depends on shock value won't.

Right.

Quote

And yet, neither of those are Jons biggest mistake.

Mance Rayder had 100,000 wildlings marching on the wall to escape the white walkers. Only 5,000 made it south of the wall. The main reason was that Mance was stupid enough to trust Jon and Jon betrayed that trust. His "honor" caused the death 95,000 human beings that could have manned the wall (and could have crushed that nasty Bolton like a bug). Now he has just 10,000 warriors to protect the North in its entirety.

It is very much Jon. He has a lot of heart and courage, and people around him come to love him. But he isn't very good at strategy and diplomacy.

Well, to be fair, nobody knew that Stannis came north, would attack the wildlings and capture Mance Rayder. Mance was the glue which held together the pile of different wildling tribes. After he was gone, the wildlings scattered and became easy targets for White Walkers and wights. Nobody could have prevented that, not Jon and no respected wildling (like Tormund or Val), Mance's footsteps were simply to big.

[Illiterati]

Will Jon ever take part in a battle that doesn't end by deus ex machina?

[John Meta]

16 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's obvious at this point that Jon is not a good battle field commander.  Let's take a look at his record.

• Castle Black.  Jon lost that battle.  Mance Rayder was about to win until Stannis Baratheon came along and pulled Jon's bacon out of the fire. 
• Winterfell.  Jon lost this battle to Ramsay.  Ramsay was proven the better battle commander.  He bested Jon on the  battlefield.  Littlefinger came to his rescue and bailed him out.  It's thanks to Littleinger that Jon still has his skin.
• Beyond the Wall.  Jon was losing the battle against the wights.  Dany and Her dragons came to the rescue and got them out. 

Jon is not good at anything except swinging a sword.  I don't see a place for Jon after the war with the Night's King is won.  Dany is much better at ruling and at leading than Jon.  She should have the iron throne.  A heroic death while taking down the Night's King would be a fitting way for Jon to die. 

I disagree. These battles were generally decided by numbers, not battle strategy; and Jon is shown to excel at command. Consider that movie "300" - would you say that event proves the Spartan soldiers were poor fighters bested by Persian excellence? Or would you say the Spartan soldiers were the superior force with the superior commander, yet unable to achieve victory due to numbers.

You say Dany is better at leading than Jon but again I disagree. While Jon is always in command of the smaller force of a particular battle, Dany has the numbers and the dragons. Give Jon three dragons, the Dothraki and, if he wanted it, the Iron Throne would already be his. Dany is more of an inspiring figurehead than a commander. 

But put Jon and Dany together, and you've got a perfect force with a perfect commander and a perfect figurehead.

[Illiterati]

1 minute ago, John Meta said:

I disagree. These battles were generally decided by numbers, not battle strategy; and Jon is shown to excel at command. Consider that movie "300" - would you say that event proves the Spartan soldiers were poor fighters bested by Persian excellence? Or would you say the Spartan soldiers were the superior force with the superior commander, yet unable to achieve victory due to numbers.

You say Dany is better at leading than Jon but again I disagree. While Jon is always in command of the smaller force of a particular battle, Dany has the numbers and the dragons. Give Jon three dragons, the Dothraki and, if he wanted it, the Iron Throne would already be his. Dany is more of an inspiring figurehead than a commander. 

But put Jon and Dany together, and you've got a perfect force with a perfect commander and a perfect figurehead.

Firstly, Jon's forces got enveloped because HE broke discipline over Rickon.

Secondly, they were surrounded at the ice lake because HE bought into a terrible plan that without some creative writing, should have killed them all.  As a leader, he should have nipped that plan in the bud when it was first brought up.

[OldGimletEye]

I'd admit show Jon is an idiot. But, then everyone on the show is an idiot.

Anyway, in the books Dany does make some pretty significant goofs in SB The show tended to ignore them. So no I'm not prepared to say she is a better leader.

And frankly, I don't take the show characterizations all that seriously anyway.

[John Meta]

Also, I'd just like to say that Sansa was wrong when she said to Arya that she was responsible for taking back Winterfell. Robyn's forces failed to capture Ramsay, who made it back to Winterfell and would have kept it if it were not solely because of the wildling giant who smashed down the gate. The wildling giant who was there because of Jon Snow.

[John Meta]

5 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Firstly, Jon's forces got enveloped because HE broke discipline over Rickon.

Secondly, they were surrounded at the ice lake because HE bought into a terrible plan that without some creative writing, should have killed them all.  As a leader, he should have nipped that plan in the bud when it was first brought up.

First point I'd say is untrue; the two forces would've collided regardless because that is what happens in battle.

Second point I'd argue is untrue because the plan was necessary to provide the most likely manner of rallying the forces of the Seven Kingdoms.

[watcher of the night]

4 hours ago, plastic throne said:

Nope, how convenient that both of you showed up with some BS excuse to defend probably the most obscure battle in history of film. The amount of how apologetic the "blinded by the show" fans can getis just beyond me...

Battle of the Bastards was a disaster in both portraying Jon as a leader/commander/character as well as the actual course of the battle itself. Which was on pair with anime genre. B rated anime movie. If you two can't see that; there's no help for any of ya. Focus fire section of the battlefield to create a 10metres high wall of dead bodies (with people constantly climbing on top of it just to help executing Ramsey's plans) with which you entrap your enemy while he just stands there, totally oblivious? Haha, sure. Also, great leadership, especially with that solo charge. Gimme a break.

Wanna know who the real fans of the show are? Those who criticize it, those same people want it to succeed, not just for the short term (like everything in popular culture) but becoming a classic like a Sopranos. Sadly, we're far beyond the point of salvation, thanks to people unable of critical thinking.

The problem is that you are completely misguided yourself. You are not criticising the show; you are (i) labelling and name calling people who dare to disagree with you, (ii) hating Jon Snow. This is obvious from other threads, as soon as I saw your name I was sure that you will do your best to drag Jon into the mud.

If you were really critical of the show you would have realized that: (i) the whole BoB was a giant plot device to allow Littlefinger (Sansa) to ride in with the Knights of the Vale and save the day; (ii) showrunners do not know anything about medieval military tactics and formations. This later is clear from the positioning of Ramsay troops (they were postioned as a Total War player would do them, not as a medieval commander), or from the other battles like the field of fire 2.0 where Randyl Tarly did all the noob mistakes depsite being the "greatest commender" in westeros.

[watcher of the night]

53 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Will Jon ever take part in a battle that doesn't end by deus ex machina?

Where was a deus ex machina at the Fist of the first Men, at Hardome, at Castleblack?

[Illiterati]

9 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Where was a deus ex machina at the Fist of the first Men, at Hardome, at Castleblack?

Fist wasn't really a battle per se.

Hardhome I'll give you, though I think I could categorize the first discovery of VS and dragonglass as ex machina of sorts.

Castle Black battle was ended by Stannis.  CB didn't have enough forces left to withstand the next push, so he went off to heroically kill Mance and tada!  Deus Ex Machina Stannis' Army comes to save the day.

[watcher of the night]

5 hours ago, plastic throne said:

So because the writers wanted to create drama we're to turn a blind eye that it was ultimately him who f*cked up the battle, discard the battle plans they agreed upon the night before? Can you imagine what effect would it have on you when your general solo charging the enemy like an idiot and saying "leeeeeeeeeroooy jenkins"? Right, you'd throw your weapons on the ground, turn around and say "what an idiot". Also, Ramsey did out maneuver him, he actually played Jon like a little child. How do I know this? His plans (though pretty sci-fi like creating a 10meters high wall of bodies on which other ppl climb to get shot at) for the battle worked 100%, Jon's did not.

Also, history is FULL of battles won by inferior side. FULL; for example, their (Jon, Davos,..) initial battle plans were very similar to the one's of Hannibal Barca in the battle of Cannae. The center was suppose to fall back slowly, giving Ramsey's side a feeling they're winning and pressure on. With their flanks standing ground until commanded otherwise and press on, they'd slowly have them surrounded and surround them with less men!! Slaughterhouse would follow.

This was suppose to happen; the bolded text is an example how ramsey's numbers don't meant sh*t; because they can't fight/help their comrades, only those on the outside of formation can, so it is 2v1 in favor of Jon (outer circle is bigger than the inner one).

They wouldn't even need Vale's cavalry.

 

_hidden in the forest or the backline_                                                _reserves come closing in to surround_

                                        ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

                                  ______       ooooooooooooooooooooo           ______

                                           _______    ramsey's army   _________

                                                            _____________

Name just one battle, ONE where the truly inferior side won. The side with inferior men, equipment, training and position. In all battles where the so called "inferior" side won -which people usually mean the side with less men- this "inferior" side had either better equipment, training or positining or a combination of the three. Jon had inferiority in everything: troop numbers, equipment ,training, position. No general could have won this battle unless the other side made some stupid mistake. Of course, Jon (or any sane general) should have declined to fight under these conditions but we know this fight had to happen for show reasons outside Jon.

Also the composition of Jon's troops made it impossible to carry out any complicated manouvers. More than half of his army were wildings in fur armed with spears and long knives. It is utterly impossible that he could have carried out a double envelopment like Hannibal. That manouvre needs highly disciplined troops that can hold the centre and retreat in order, at leats not break under heavy pressure. Also it needs troops that can win the flanks. Hannibal had both: he had superior cavalry to the romans, and he had his well armed, battle tested veterans in the centre. Jon had none.

If there is anyone to blame it is Sansa, who could have told Jon that the KotV are near, that would have been a game changer. 

[watcher of the night]

5 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Fist wasn't really a battle per se.

Hardhome I'll give you, though I think I could categorize the first discovery of VS and dragonglass as ex machina of sorts.

Castle Black battle was ended by Stannis.  CB didn't have enough forces left to withstand the next push, so he went off to heroically kill Mance and tada!  Deus Ex Machina Stannis' Army comes to save the day.

What was it if not a battle?

Hardhome: so we at least have one battle of Jon which ended without DeM.

I mean the defense Castle Black (from the rear attack) and not the Wall. IIRC they won CB without any DeM.

[Illiterati]

3 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

What was it if not a battle?

Hardhome: so we at least have one battle of Jon which ended without DeM.

I mean the defense Castle Black (from the rear attack) and not the Wall. IIRC they won CB without any DeM.

They didn't win CB, and they knew they hadn't won CB.  In fact, they were so pessimistic about their chances to win that Jon went on one of his genius missions, this one to assassinate Rayder, only to be saved by DeM.

 

Fist was not a battle, it was an ambush, one that decimated the forces, with only Mormont, and a few men making it out alive.

[NickStark2494]

17 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It's obvious at this point that Jon is not a good battle field commander.  Let's take a look at his record.

• Castle Black.  Jon lost that battle.  Mance Rayder was about to win until Stannis Baratheon came along and pulled Jon's bacon out of the fire. 
• Winterfell.  Jon lost this battle to Ramsay.  Ramsay was proven the better battle commander.  He bested Jon on the  battlefield.  Littlefinger came to his rescue and bailed him out.  It's thanks to Littleinger that Jon still has his skin.
• Beyond the Wall.  Jon was losing the battle against the wights.  Dany and Her dragons came to the rescue and got them out. 

Jon is not good at anything except swinging a sword.  I don't see a place for Jon after the war with the Night's King is won.  Dany is much better at ruling and at leading than Jon.  She should have the iron throne.  A heroic death while taking down the Night's King would be a fitting way for Jon to die. 

1. Castle Black is a huge win for Jon as a commander. The things that went wrong weren't his fault, he was only in charge about half way through the battle, before that Alliser was the commander. The NW had about 100 men VS 100 thousand Wildlings, so you can't really blame Jon for needing Stannis' help.

2. Hardhome was a massacre, not a battle. Jon wasn't going there to fight, he went there to save lives. They were massively outnumbered, but he still saved thousands of Wildlings. This event has nothing to do with his abilities as a commander.

3. Winterfell : Ramsay came out on top for two reasons. The first was that he had 6000 men, while Jon only had 2500. Out of those 2500, 2000 were Wildlings. Wildlings have shitty weapons, and aren't properly trained, so of course they are going to get their asses handed to them by 6000 well trained and well provisioned Northerners. Not to mention the fact that they had to march for a couple hours to make it to WF from their encampment, so they weren't as well rested as Ramsay's men. The second reason was that Ramsay exploited Jon's love for his brother to lure him into a trap. Jon didn't fall into that trap because he's dumb, he fell into it because any person who loves their little brother would fall into it. It's an unavoidable trap unless you're a sociopath. I can't blame Jon for trying to rescue his brother.

4. Beyond the Wall : this was not even remotely a battle. They were 10 men against a hundred thousand wights. Of course Jon couldn't win, no one could possibly win that. Blaming Jon for not defeating hundreds of thousands of enemies with a 10 man group is insanity. This has nothing to do with his abilities as a commander. The plan to go Beyond the Wall was obviously dumb as fuck, but it was Tyrion's plan, not Jon's, and it was a contrived ploy by the writers. Blame them.

Basically the point is that the only strategic mistake Jon makes is during the Battle of the Bastards, and he doesn't make it out of incompetence, he makes it because he desperately wants to save his baby brother.

He was massively outnumbered in each and every one of his "battles".

As for Dany being a good ruler, I have to have a good chuckle at that. Dany is an abysmal ruler. Meereen was an utter failure. The whole point of her arc there was to show that, as Daario tells her in Season 6 Episode 6, she's not a ruler. She's a conqueror. She's good at war, killing, destroying, etc... Fire and Blood. That's what she is. She wasn't made to rule, to play politics, or to deal with noblemen.

She's miserable at diplomacy, and has neither the patience nor the ability to govern a city, let alone an entire continent.

The books clearly show that Jon, on the other hand, despite making several mistakes as Lord Commander, is quite a savvy ruler. He still has a lot to learn, and he will, but he is in fact quite capable. The same goes for the show in fact.

He's unpopular, yes, but he does the right thing. Saving the Wildlings was the right thing to do. Some of his men didn't like it, so they killed him, but that's happened to lots of good rulers throughout history. Being assassinated doesn't mean you were wrong. It means violent elements decided to use violence to defeat you because they didn't like your vision.

As King in the North, he has also made the right decisions. Seeking an alliance with Dany was unpopular, but absolutely necessary.

So I really can't agree with your assessment.

It's because of Jon that we now have Wildlings, Northerners, Dothraki, Unsullied, and two dragons all united to fight the common enemy.

He's the one who made that happen.

[Sir Dingleberry]

This was debated last season to all ends but why are people still acting like Jon is an ass for breaking rank to save his brother? I mean most people would do that or do something in that situation. I understand the logic behind not doing something for his brother but come on.

My issue is that Jon broke character that the showrunners created by his decision.  He killed the Halfhand and maintainted character with the wildlings to save the NW/wall. Then when he is on notice that Ramsey has his brother and is on notice of Ramsey's torture methods and is aware of how important this battle is for the North/living in the war to come he breaks character because of the plot  D&D wanted to create.