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JMMapelwood

What is the role of Gendry?

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On 8/25/2017 at 6:42 AM, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

He is there to soften Aryas black hateful heart.

He has fulfilled his purpose finally as of last episode: to take Arya's virginity.

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Without a time jump this seems unlikely. Cersei's been pregnant for two seasons now and still isn't showing. I just don't think there's enough time to develop that story in the four remaining episodes. 

I hope you don't view me as hostile. That is not my intent. You are as welcome to your predictions as I am to mine. I just don't agree in the plausibility. I think the character has a much greater purpose. Either way we'll find out next week.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, joaozinm said:

His role was to put a baratheon inside arya's belly and then die like a hero!

One theory that I've had for a long time is that Arya, who didn't want to be in a relationship will end up getting married, and Sansa, who dreamed of marriage and fawned over boys the whole time will end up alone.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

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43 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

One theory that I've had for a long time is that Arya, who didn't want to be in a relationship will end up getting married, and Sansa, who dreamed of marriage and fawned over boys the whole time will end up alone.

Well, since the closest pretender to Sansa now is probably dickless theon that theory might turn out to be right

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, for all those who were on denial! 

They also pointed out more than once if there was an afterwards in general, not to a particular character. I think that Arya's reaction when she knows about Gendry's origins must mean something. Is there an afterwards? And who is the first real ship that sails in this season? Them. With Arya's smile in the first seconds of the season.

We've had a type of call-back regression journey for Arya. In epi 1, her first meeting with Gendry coincides with her Hound meeting, who's bullying him, as once Hot Pie bullied her to get her castle-forged Needle and Gendry ordered Hot Pie to "leave her alone", bragging he could beat the two bullies up pretty easily. That bully scene at the end of S1 was about Hot Pie bragging how he once killed another boy. This time again the conversation starts about who could kill - Arya left the Hound to die, after she robbed him (as Hot Pie tried to take her sword from her). It's not so much that Arya is murderous in this scene with the Hound, but that she's icy as a Stark... "she's cold". I guess the "bitch" reference the Hound used was his way of acknowleding her as his adopted daughter (which they pretended to be during their journey in the Riverlands). The Hound also stands in between what/who she wants or seeks, and as he promised to Brienne, he's not the one to stand in her way.

Then we get some book-mining to the Acorn Hall scene with Gendry telling her she looks good. And then the Lady Stark - m'lady ritual they had when they traveled with Yoren, which puts her at ease with him. Another call-back to their first meeting was Gendry asking to see her dagger. In the finale of S1, he asked to see her sword, and proclaimed it to be castle-forged, asking her how she got that, at which point she took it back from him. In s8 he asks to see the dagger, notes it's Valyrian steel and asks her how she got that. She takes it back, and he teases her for being a "rich girl". It sounds anachronistic, but with Gendry now knowing the identity of his father, he doesn't feel entirely "lowborn" anymore. If before he teased her about being a Lord's daughter, he can't do that anymore as he's a king's son. And at least book-Gendry knows she loved her bastard-brother (and I guess we should assume show-Gendry knows this too, because he was eager to meet with Jon prior season). He can tease her about being rich and him being poor, but not about who their father is. And if before she pushed him for that in anger in S2, she now smiles and dances off, letting him know she's the only rich girl he knows.

So, after Arya deals with when she last saw the Hound, we get a re-acquaintance scene for Gendry with call-backs to when they first met and when Gendry first learned who she was, and a sprinkle of Acorn Hall with the "you look good" line (a scene that wasn't in the show).

Then we get to their first scene in epi 2. She watches him smith away in the forge with an expression of "hmmm, yummy", as she did in Harrenhal in S2. Except this time he has a shirt on. You can almost imagine her wanting to see him shirtless again. Notice though how Gendry is very aware she's there. He doesn't look up and then tell her whether she doesn't have anything better to do. He already knows and only looks up to tell her. Don't recall exactly whether Gendry uses such a line in the show in the Harrenhal forge scene, but book Gendry does. Anyway, my point here is that Arya cannot sneak up on Gendry as she could with Jon. Sure, she wasn't hiding herself really, but he never looked at her once before he does and confronts her about loitering around. So, he's instinctively aware of her presence. We have more HH-forge call backs. Gendry tells her to go someplace else than the battle ground, like Gendry tells her (in the books I think) to bugger off and do her thing in the castle, while he inspects the dragonglass spearheads he made, just like he inspected the castle-steel sword he made in S2. In S2 he tested the blade as if he was a fighter, with Arya telling him to use it properly, and Gendry answering defensively about there not being an opponent and thus him not trying to be a fighter. In this scene Arya counters his advice whether he's going to be in the battle, with him now telling her that he's a fighter. She questions him about that. He refers to the Harrenhal time when he tells her he knows murderers and rapers don't scare her. And I think he wanted to mention "torturers" at the end of his sentence, before Arya interrupts him to say a smith's apprentice can do better in describing the foe, though the fear he expressed earlier seemed enough to convince her he was telling the truth about his claim of having faced them. She knows he can be brave, given how he held his own when he was being interrogated about the Brotherhood with a trapped rat strapped across his stomach after they all witnessed what the result of that is. 

Then she proceeds to throw the spearheads, proving her accuracy and aim to him. I cannot recall an actual parallel with that, except for the bowshooting scene when Mel arrives with the Brotherhood in S3. She wasn't as accurate then, but she is now. Evidently, Arya wants to ease his worries about her not knowing how to handle a weapon, aside from her sword and dagger. It's not about showing him she's badass. But that she's a far more skilled fighter than he is and wants that weapon, and no "you're a girl bullshit so, I'll delay making that weapon you asked for". That's made clear, because she walks off without ever looking back. No flirty twirling this time.


.At nightfall, Arya seeks out the Hound to find out why he's fighting for them at Winterfell. Even when he tells her "I fought for you, didn't I?" she seems unconvinced. Arya can tell when people lie. That's why she's asking everyone questions. The Hound is not at Winterfell to fight for Arya. He already admitted he believes she can handle things by herself. Imho, he's there for Sansa, but he wants to prove himself worthy in the battle first. Last time he saw Sansa, he deserted KL, heavily traumatised by fighting amidst wildfire. And while he conquered his fear somewhat by staring into a fire, he froze when it came to acting against the wighted snowbear as it mauled Thoros in S7. I expect him to do a brave act to save Sansa involving a fire next episode. Anyhow, Beric arrives to sit with them. Of note here is that, when Beric arrives, the Hound says, "FFS, may as well be at a bloody wedding," and I don't think he means the Red Wedding, as Beric was not with them at the time or any other wedding we had at GOT so far. It's a mystifying remark and seems to make little sense, so that was imo a code sentence. With the Hound asking whether Beric was ever on her list, she's reminded once more of the Brotherhood, the Red Woman, the mystery to what she wanted from Gendry, but also Arya telling Gendry back then she could be his family. And I think that's why we have the Hound making that wedding remark. Even if Arya never dreamed of marriage, and likely did not think of it in those terms when she mentioned "being family" to Gendry in S3, the remark and the ghost-memory that Beric represents to Arya is the reason why she leaves with the intention to take another adult step in her relationship with Gendry.

That this memory is playing on her mind is shown by her shooting 3 arrows, exactly as she did under the tutelage of Anguy of the Brotherhood. She has gotten much better since then. And then we see Gendry watching her for once from the shadows, apparently for quite some time. So, the prior scene proved Arya cannot creep up on Gendry unnoticed, but he apparently can sneak up on her and watch her without her being aware of it (he has learned to be stealthily after all it appears, since book-Arya often complains about his noisy stumbling). I don't think anyone is able to do that. And in her case, I don't think that means she's not aware of him (she's already waiting for him to show up), but that she feels no need to guard her back from him (she has her back to him after all), and she'll see him whenever he shows up with her weapon. Arya only turns around, when Gendry takes his first step on the gravel.

Another huge contrast to the earlier scene in epi2: in the first scene I don't recall Gendry ever having looked that dirt and grimy before. Shen he shows up with her weapon, Gendry didn't come straight from the forge. Nope he was all cleaned up, and in his best clothes. (Not a show event, but book-Arya likes it when he smells of soap at the Crossroads inn, where the gold cloaks come looking for him). Gendry's not dressed up for a fight, but a date. And once she approves of what he made for her, he refers to the same "I could be your family" scene, when he explains that she once told him to come to Winterfell, and though he took a long road, he finally chose to work in the forge of Winterfell for her brother, implying he's there by choice and taking her up on her implied-invitation back then.

Arya immediately accepts that he's here for her (she asked the Hound, she never needed to ask Gendry). It's likely the first thing she smiled about to herself in episode 1 when she saw him arriving with Jon and Dany - coming to WF after all to forge weapons for my brother. Beric, the arrows, and now Gendry recalled her of the time she met the Red Woman, and she asks after her. Her inquiry what Mel wanted from him, is not weird, since the last she saw Gendry, he was bought by Mel and taken away in a cage. But her tone is that of the lie-detector. He had after all expressed together with Anguy that he found the Red Woman attractive, and Arya was suspicious of her instantly out of jealousy back then, even before Mel took Gendry with her as captive. And the way she interrogates him about it, harks back to Lady Crane's story: how she always fell for "bad men" who cheated on her with whores, coming back smelling of their perfume, and saying the wrong name. Lady Crane would knife them then only to stitch them up afterwards. And here Gendry is, after all that time, all spruced up, not appearing the worse for it, trying to sideline the topic of the Red Woman. And before she will take the next step to sleep with him, she wants to know whether he's not a philanderer, especially when she discovers he's the son of king Robert.

(This scene also borrows from a book-scene: at some point, the Brotherhood stay the night at a brothel, called the Peach, with both Arya and Gendry acting out of jealousy; she after a prostitute propositions to him, whose actually his bastard half-sister; and he after he chases a pedo off, pretending to be her brother and getting angry when she points out he isn't her brother - nor does she want him to be her brother. Basically the Lady Crane scenes imo was a plotzee set-up for Arya of botht the Peace-scene that sets up a to be revisited jealousy between them and her likely serving with the Black Swan as dresser or other non-compromising job with the courtisan during the time she will have her first period in tWoW)

When he gives her an honest answer, and a reasonable number (for his age), that's when she decides to sleep with him. Exactly because it echoes the warning Lady Crane gave her about "bad men", we can therefore determine that Arya did not choose him just because she thinks him attractive or experienced enough. And he confirms her conclusion that he's a "good man", because he uses her name Arya. She is not no-one anymore, not m'lady or Lady Stark - she is Arya to him.

Well, that date went well. Her shoving him onto the sacks of grain or whatever they end up sleeping with each other, is a call-back to when she shoved him and had him land on his bum in the S2 scene when he discovered she was a girl, and Ned Stark's daughter to boot. He's taller and stronger than her, but she can push him around. He always liked it when she bossed him around. Her stripping and him aready lying on the sacks is a visual parallel to his scene with Mel. Her comment that she's not the red woman, is a reminder of two things. 1- She may have pushed him and initiated the kissing, but she wants him to consent out of his own volition. 2 - she never cared who's blood ran through his veins. It's certainly code that them sleeping together is a mutual consentual act, nor is she toying with him.

In the books we know only two lines of Jenny's song, we've been given more lines now (not confirmed this actually was written by George, but I suspect it is. The show uses it to tie to several characters, including Brienne, because of the background history of the song. However, in the books the song is sung only in Arya's chapters at High Hill, and referenced by Catelyn to Robb when they make camp at Oldstones on their way to the Red Wedding, where Arya will be an outside witness to it and knows full well that her brother Robb and her mother are being murdered inside the castle. The lyrics talk about Jenny "dancing" with her ghosts, and in the books you can see that Bran's the one who hears and sees fairytales and eventually will become the storyteller. Meanwhile Sansa is the singer. And Arya is the "dancer". She's the one who ends up not remembering the names of her friends and family anymore at Braavos. Instead she remembers them with the names of their murderers on her list., etc.

But anyhow, the show used the lyrics to coincide with several apt characters. When Arya lies staring awake while Gendry sleeps peacefully, Podrick sings the line of "spun away all her sorrow and pain", adding the importance that Gendry is important to help her heal from the ghosts and horror of her past. This is also made clear by her stripping. They didn't just let her strip because of "nudity in sex scenes" but because it shows Gendry's the sole one she dares to show her literal scars to (supposedly Lady Crane's stitchwork of the Waif's attempt on Arya's life). She revealed some part of it to Sansa, and she hints at it with her "once or twice" to Jon when he asks her whether she ever used Needle. Bran knows exactly what she survived. Together both Bran and Arya weird out the most people. But Arya we can assume feels shame and reluctance to reveal too much about it to her siblings. Gendry cares and takes her as she is anyway, scars and all. She already took off her lady's cloak before he arrived. Then she takes of the assassin layer. To then shed the Arry boy clothes she wore in the Riverlands.

Finally I want to comment on the location where she chose to give her virginity to Gendry: the stables. There aren't any horses in it, but it's a "stable" area. Possibly there's a wordplay here for Arya seeking or finding stability with Gendry. But most importantly, her murderous journey starts in the stables of the Red Keep. That's where she killed the first person, and thus takes her all the way back to the last day she felt safe, when she still had breakfast with her father in the morning and she had a typical squabble with her sister Sansa, the last normal childhood day. If we combine that with the line that Podrick sings, I guess that Arya's thinking of her father and the days when her childhood had been happy ones. She's both saying goodbye to her assassin days, but also her long ago childhood. I think she finally can mourn.

Edited by sweetsunray

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22 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

so well.....Gendrya sailed. pheow. We knew it, it was written!

 

IT HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Long, long time in the making :love:

I have a feeling it will be very different in the books, but it happened!

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About the last scene during the song, with Gendry sleeping next to her... it's not a big mystery really.

Arya suffers from Insomnia since she witnessed the beheading of Ned Stark. In the show Yoren told her how he dealt with his after his brother got killed: he would say the name of the man who got his brother killed. It had a downside though: after several years, he knew the face of the murderer's face better than that he remembered his brother's face. (In the books she actually comes up with this on her own). And Arya starts her list: Joffrey, the Hound. And at Harrenhal she adds the Mountain and the Tickler. When we see her do this at HH, she lies on her side, next to a sleeping Gendry (in the pouring rain while locked up waiting to be picked for the torture).

Over time, more names got put on: Beric, the Red Woman, and of course Cersei was on her list for a very very long time, and Freys of course.

The show reminded us of her list in episode 2, and she confirms to the Hound that she took Beric of her list at some point, just as she took the Hound of her list. Now, we hadn't heard her recite her list for a very long time, so we didn't know who was still on it. Mel was also on her list too. With Gendry very much alive and well, she is not sure anymore either whether to keep her on her list or not. From Gendry she learns that Mel put leeches on him, but nothing worse (though she wanted to do worse), and her brother banished Mel for the crime of burning Shyreen (we don't know if Arya knows about this).

Now we have again a scene where she lies on her side (same position) next to a sleeping Gendry, and she still has insomnia, but she has no more names on her list.

In other words: she took of Cersei from her list as well, when she decided to ride for WF instead of KL in s7, despite the fact she believes Cersei blew up the sept.

So, that's the meaning of her stare: no more names on her list, just the insomnia and the memories of her lost loved ones.

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On 8/25/2017 at 2:08 AM, JMMapelwood said:

Why did they go to all the trouble saving an at first sight unimportant character? What difference will  Gendry's life  make in long run? Your thoughts please!

Without reading a single other post....

He is there to rebuild the shattered and virtually destroyed house of his father and uncles.

Even if you believe that there are some sweeping changes in Westeros after all this shakes out, I still think major houses will be relevant in the leadership of the new Westeros. He will be recognized as the heir and carry on the name after marrying. 

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On 4/22/2019 at 3:20 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

One theory that I've had for a long time is that Arya, who didn't want to be in a relationship will end up getting married, and Sansa, who dreamed of marriage and fawned over boys the whole time will end up alone.

 

On 4/22/2019 at 4:04 PM, joaozinm said:

Well, since the closest pretender to Sansa now is probably dickless theon that theory might turn out to be right

 

I just don't see how this will happen. 

Sansa will either end up queen or lady of Winterfell. She may not like her match, or she may finally get the true love she has always longed for. But she is one of the only females characters left who is valuable and healthy and has birth rights. 

I do think Arya will also marry and it seems to logic that Gendry is a pretty strong possibility, tying the Storm Lords and Northerners together, again. 

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On 4/23/2019 at 2:59 AM, sweetsunray said:

About the last scene during the song, with Gendry sleeping next to her... it's not a big mystery really.

Arya suffers from Insomnia since she witnessed the beheading of Ned Stark. In the show Yoren told her how he dealt with his after his brother got killed: he would say the name of the man who got his brother killed. It had a downside though: after several years, he knew the face of the murderer's face better than that he remembered his brother's face. (In the books she actually comes up with this on her own). And Arya starts her list: Joffrey, the Hound. And at Harrenhal she adds the Mountain and the Tickler. When we see her do this at HH, she lies on her side, next to a sleeping Gendry (in the pouring rain while locked up waiting to be picked for the torture).

Over time, more names got put on: Beric, the Red Woman, and of course Cersei was on her list for a very very long time, and Freys of course.

The show reminded us of her list in episode 2, and she confirms to the Hound that she took Beric of her list at some point, just as she took the Hound of her list. Now, we hadn't heard her recite her list for a very long time, so we didn't know who was still on it. Mel was also on her list too. With Gendry very much alive and well, she is not sure anymore either whether to keep her on her list or not. From Gendry she learns that Mel put leeches on him, but nothing worse (though she wanted to do worse), and her brother banished Mel for the crime of burning Shyreen (we don't know if Arya knows about this).

Now we have again a scene where she lies on her side (same position) next to a sleeping Gendry, and she still has insomnia, but she has no more names on her list.

In other words: she took of Cersei from her list as well, when she decided to ride for WF instead of KL in s7, despite the fact she believes Cersei blew up the sept.

So, that's the meaning of her stare: no more names on her list, just the insomnia and the memories of her lost loved ones.

Is Beric still on her list now that Gendry appears to be at piece with him?

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9 hours ago, Wik said:

 

 

I just don't see how this will happen. 

Sansa will either end up queen or lady of Winterfell. She may not like her match, or she may finally get the true love she has always longed for. But she is one of the only females characters left who is valuable and healthy and has birth rights. 

I do think Arya will also marry and it seems to logic that Gendry is a pretty strong possibility, tying the Storm Lords and Northerners together, again. 

I agree. But she already has her match - to one of the very few men outside her family who has ever treated her with any respect. Yeah, I'm doing it, I'm shipping Tyansa.

And yes, Genrya to of course. But I think he will die. If he does not, he is the true born King of the seven Kingdoms. Would Arya want that? She once said that "that's not me", but people change.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Timm said:

If he does not, he is the true born King of the seven Kingdoms.

:lmao:

 

No, he isn't. Right now, he is nothing, not even an acknowledged bastard.

 

And Sansa is not ending up with Tyrion, either.

Edited by Xemi

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1 hour ago, Xemi said:

:lmao:

 

No, he isn't. Right now, he is nothing, not even an acknowledged bastard.

 

True born I said, not crowned, accepted, acknowledged or anointed.

Anyway, I think he's going to die. and that it's his blood that is important, not whether anyone knows or accepts who his Mum and Dad are.  That of course is a guess and I am probably wrong, but his lineage has been clearly indicated in the show and is no crackpot theory.

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8 minutes ago, Timm said:

True born I said, not crowned, accepted, acknowledged or anointed.

Anyway, I think he's going to die. and that it's his blood that is important, not whether anyone knows or accepts who his Mum and Dad are.  That of course is a guess and I am probably wrong, but his lineage has been clearly indicated in the show and is no crackpot theory.

A bastard is not trueborn, by definition. Gendry being Cersei's son, is indeed a crackpot theory.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Xemi said:

A bastard is not trueborn, by definition. Gendry being Cersei's son, is indeed a crackpot theory.

There are two scenes early in Season 1 that do not exist at all in the books.

First is Cersei's conversation with Cat where she talks about the son that she lost, a "beautiful black haired boy" and second where she is talking to Fat Bob about their first child that they lost. The first could be a lie, but the second would need to be collusion between two people that hate each other. 

There is of course the question of what is meant by "lost", but by creating these scenes, D+D have deliberately introduced the possibility that Gendry was a true born heir. Whether or not they do anything with that possibility remains to be seen.

Edited by Timm

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8 minutes ago, Timm said:

There are two scenes early in Season 1 that do not exist at all in the books.

First is Cersei's conversation with Cat where she talks about the son that she lost, a "beautiful black haired boy" and second where she is talking to Fat Bob about their first child that they lost. The first could be a lie, but the second would need to be collusion between two people that hate each other. 

There is of course the question of what is meant by "lost", but by creating these scenes, D+D have deliberately introduced the possibility that Gendry was a true born heir. Whether or not they do anything with that possibility remains to be seen.

Suuure, Robert and Cersei's baby, who was not dead at all because that's not what "lost" means, was totally stolen and given to a blacksmith to rise up because... reasons.

Totally more likely than Gendry being one of Robert's bastards that was given a blacksmith aprenticeship arranged by Jon Arryn.

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2 minutes ago, Xemi said:

Suuure, Robert and Cersei's baby, who was not dead at all because that's not what "lost" means, was totally stolen and given to a blacksmith to rise up because... reasons.

Totally more likely than Gendry being one of Robert's bastards that was given a blacksmith aprenticeship arranged by Jon Arryn.

So why waste precious screen time inventing those scenes? Remember, S1 was actually quite faithful to the books.

Are you actually saying you think that D+D invented the second scene because they just fancied the idea of Robert and Cersei remembering a child that never existed?

Or are you saying they invented a dead baby for no reason at all? In which case, why invent a child that was not in the books, which is never heard of again? Chekhov's gun says no.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Timm said:

So why waste precious screen time inventing those scenes? Remember, S1 was actually quite faithful to the books.

Are you actually saying you think that D+D invented the second scene because they just fancied the idea of Robert and Cersei remembering a child that never existed?

Or are you saying they invented a dead baby for no reason at all? In which case, why invent a child that was not in the books, which is never heard of again? Chekhov's gun says no.

cersei aborted one of Robert's babies in the books. So, what invented baby? She just gave birth to a stillborn baby. If season 1 is so faithful to the books, then Gendry's parentage would be the same, which is that his mother was a bartender that died when he was young, so what's your point?

Are you saying that Cersei is so retarded that she would let someone steal one of her children, specially one who is trueborn? Who would be interested in doing that, and for what purpose? Your theory makes no sense.

Edited by Xemi

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3 minutes ago, Xemi said:

cersei aborted one of Robert's babies in the books. So, what invented baby? She just gave birth to a stillborn baby. If season 1 is so faithful to the books, then Gendry's parentage would be the same, which is that his mother was a bartender that died when he was young, so what's your point?

Are you saying that Cersei is so retarded that she would let someone steal one of her children, specially one who is trueborn? Who would be interested in doing that, and for what purpose? Your theory makes no sense.

I don't think Robert and Cersai were talking about an aborted child.

Anyway, in the books, Cersei tells Ned that she aborted Robert's fetus with Moon Tea. But in the TV show, she tells Cat that she had a “black haired beauty” who died of a fever as an infant. There is a big difference between an aborted fetus and a live born child that dies as an infant. Perhaps, rather than aborting Robert's child before birth, in the show, she gave it away. Or perhaps Jaime was meant to kill it,but because he was not quite 100% evil, he gave it away instead? Robert might have been to busy "beating the walls with his fists" to notice the dead child was not his.

This could be J+C's big secret, in addition to their incest, that John Arryn had discovered and they were so scared of being revealed.  

Like I say, I don't know. It's just a theory that might come to nothing, but it is not impossible, precisely because of how D+D chose to change things.

 

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