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Snormund

Can we talk about Jon?

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On 29.08.2017 at 11:05 PM, Hajk1984 said:

However, he knows that Daenerys can be impulsive. One moment someone is a trusted advisor and the next he is under suspicion. Dany's forces are completely foreign (unsullied, Dothraki etc.). What if she changes her mind when she is emotionally less vulnerable? What if she returns to prioritizing the war against Cersei? (remember that was still her position just before the wight hunt). He needs to lock her in and make her commit to this properly. The immediate threat is to the North. Southerners can take their time. Daenerys, with her mainly Essosi forces and history can even leave altogether if things get too bad. So he gives her the North. Now it's hers to defend. She can't back out of it. Just like Hardhome may not have happened if the wildlings had committed to bending the knee to Stannis and fighting for him. Stannis might have sent them boats much sooner (and more boats etc.). But Mance stuck to the principles of not kneeling.

 

On 29.08.2017 at 11:26 PM, Hajk1984 said:

Doesn't she? How many Dothraki are there with her? in 6x04 Jorah estimates around 100,000 Dothraki warriors, if I remember.

 

On 30.08.2017 at 0:11 AM, Hajk1984 said:

I doubt it. These armies were never the same size. Moreover it's not clear who holds what at this point.

Finally. At least someone else in this thread (besides me) who isn't totally biased towards Jon and Dany, and uses logic to write justified posts. Thank you, Hajk1984.

 

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4 hours ago, LukFern said:

Isso ta parecendo discussão de hater do Jon Snow. É conversa de doido só pra criticar o Jon.

While some people truly hate Jon and others just dislike him, what the majority of us are doing here is give our opinion about the characters deeds and motivations, and their interactions. 

 

4 hours ago, LukFern said:

Jon Snow ta trazendo para o Norte a salvação para q os nortistas não sejam dizimados e riscados do Mapa e tem gente falando q ele traiu o Norte? Oi? Que traição é essa de um cara q ta salvando os nortistas de serem dizimados? Isso não é traição é salvação. Se Jon não trouxesse a Daenerys não ia sobrar um pra questiona-lo e dizer q não concorda com o q Jon snow fez ou q ele traiu o Norte, não ia sobrar uma alma viva o Rei da noite e seus Zumbis ia matar todos. Tinha q se ajoelhar e agradecer Jon pelo resto da vida por ele ter conseguido trazer a salvação para o Norte e não deixar q os nortistas fossem dizimados pra sempre.
A Daenerys deixou de lutar pelos 7 Reinos perdeu um dragão, ta trazendo todos seus soldados só pra vim salvar os Nortistas de morrerem e virarem Zumbis e por isso pode perder pra sempre a chance de ser Rainha. A Daenerys poderia ter invadido e conquistado o Reino facilmente e ter deposto a Cersei e depois com seus dragões e seus exércitos esperar os mortos vivos arrasar com o norte e depois dizima-lo os mortos vivos, mas não ela, graças ao Jon Snow, ela desistiu pra ir salvar o Norte.
Nem a Sansa tem q reclamar de nada, pq se a Daenerys não ajudar o Norte ela vai virar a Senhora Zumbi de Winterfell e não vai sobrar um pra reclamar do trono no Norte

This is your opinion, which I share. But it's just an opinion, like everyone elses's one. And again, we are talking about characters interactions. You don't need to hate Jon, to think that at first the northeners won't be happy with him pledging the North to Dany; it's what was forshadowed by the previous dynamic: they didn't want him to go south, not even to bring the needed allies, because not one of them is really aware of the dimension of the threat;  and particularly they don't trust the Mad King's daughter. They will not welcome her in the moment they see her, that's for sure. Yet, when they understand that they need her and that Jon did what he did to protect the north , and when she has proven herself worthy, they'll accept her. 

4 hours ago, LukFern said:

Sobre Jon Snow e a patrulha. Se Jon Snow tivesse quebrado os votos da patrulha antes ele teria sido condenado, ele foi condenado por ter quebrado os votos antes dele morrer? A resposta é "NÃO"! Não é o comentarista do forum ou haters do Jon Snow q decide se ele quebrou ou não os votos da patrulha e sim a patrulha da noite e a patrulha da noite (leiam GRRM e D&D) não o condenou, tanto nos livros como no show ele não foi condenado. Portanto ele não quebrou os votos antes de morrer.

In show: Condemned by whom? He was the Lord Commander, and the Watch was without a Maester at that moment. How would the Watch implement a trial and reach a verdict?  Didn't the three higher rank officers below him participate in his "punishment"? 

In books: There was no trial, and neither an organized mutiny, but the attack was certainly due because they thought Jon commited (or was about to commit) treason to the Night's Watch when he declared his intentions to lead an army to Winterfell and kill Ramsay Bolton. The Night's Watch oath forbids to take part in the political struggles of the 7 kingdoms. So yes, while is true that in the show letting the wildings enter was no treason and the people who attacked him were just driven by old hatreds and prejudices; in the books he indeed broke his vows.

We can debate if in doing so he was right or wrong, and all opinions are valid.

4 hours ago, LukFern said:

Agora sobre ele ter deixado a Patrulha da noite. Uma pergunta: como se sai da patrulha da Noite, como se livra do Juramento? Uma das respostas é a Morte. Jon Snow Morreu? Resposta: Sim ele morreu. GRRM disse no livro q ele morreu e D&D disse no Show q ele morreu. Então não tem o q contestar, ele Morreu portanto acabou seu juramento ele não deve mais nada pra patrulha. Morreu Portanto a partir do momento q ele morreu o seu juramento foi desfeito. Simples e Direto.

In this I agree, except for the bold part. In the book, Jon's death is not conclusive. "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold ...". Perhaps he just fainted. perhaps his spirit  left his body and was safe within Ghost before the fourth knife; there are other possibilities than just death,  GRRM   wrote the text ambiguously on purpose. 

4 hours ago, LukFern said:

Os membros da patrulha q são os caras q devia julga-lo e condena-lo entenderam q ele ta livre do Juramento q ele pode deixar a patrulha. Para quem assisti e não é acéfalo ou hater do Jon entendeu isso, claro e cristalino. Vcs queriam q num show de televisão tudo fosse explicado nos mínimos detalhes? O show deixou subentendido q o Jon ta livre do juramento. Acho q D&D acredita q quem assiste o show tem um mínimo de inteligência e não precisa explicar tudo, muitas coisas podem ficar subentendidas. D&D ja tao correndo com o Show e tem gente q quer q eles expliquem tudo nos mínimos detalhes. Haja paciência! Usem o cérebro pra poder entender algumas coisas como o q Jon não deve mais nada pra patrulha, não queiram q D&D explique tudo pra vcs. Usem o cérebro também pra poder entender o q ta sendo passado. Ou vcs querem tudo mastigado?

D&D did a bad Job: I know he died, I believe that death ended his vows, thus the characters who know that he died consider him free now. BUT many other characters don't know he died, he made sure of that. Then, they NOT thiking he is a traitor and  a deserter is a HUGE inconsistency. I love Jon, and I was  very pissed off when none of the northeners questioned him for that. 

Please, this is an english forum; you can at least use google translator  and  save the forum  members of having to do the same to understand what you are saying. Thank you.

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On 30.08.2017 at 2:43 AM, snow is the man said:

Also aegon came and started with three dragons and a few hundred troops if I remember right and conquered everywhere but dorne. So dany conquering westeros with somewhere around fifty thousand dothraki (probably more) and six thousand unsullied (when she first gets there) and three dragons is plenty.

Aegon wasn't alone. Both of his sisters were also riding dragons. And they were unable to conquir Dorne, only because one of sisters were killed by dornish arrow, shot in her eye, and fell off her dragon from big height. Also now Dany has only two dragons, and one of them is smaller. Seems to me that even Drogon isn't as big as dragons of first Targarien rulers of Westeros. Underneath Red Keep there are skulls bigger than Drogon's. If dragon is smaller, then it flyes lower and slower, so there's more chances to kill it. Even Drogon was seriosly wounded by Bronn's arrow-spear. Dany has lesser chances to conquir Westeros. Especially because she made a very wrong choise with her timing. She should have stayed at Essos.

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On 30.08.2017 at 4:07 AM, Apoplexy said:

Cersei at least was expecting the dragons and was prepared.

She was so unimpressed by Drogon, that it was anticlimactic -_-

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If Dany were to lose her dragons due to anything, she would have no chance at conquering westeros.

I think that without dragons she has better chanses <- even though this sounds silly.

Because she has dragons, she's too full of herself, she thinks that she's invulnerable. Also she doesn't make longterm plans, and doesn't have a political strategy. She thought that everyone will bend the knee or die, but her plans didn't include possibility that her dragons may die. Also even all three dragons can't burn several millions Westerosi, if they will decline to succumb to Dany's rule.

Quote

She does need some alliances, which is why she made an alliance with Yara and Dorne. Fighting the north and the vale had Jon not bent the knee would have been extremely ill advised.

Another one of her mistakes. She thought that Cersei is her only enemy. She wasn't ready for Euron's intervention, and haven't foreseen that some of Reach's people would go against Olena. She thought that defeating Cersei will be enough to became ruler of Seven Kingdoms. She never apprehended that after that she will have to either convince all Lords of Westeros to acknowledge her, or she will have to fight with all of them. And even 100,000 Dothrakis wouldn't be enough to conquer several millions of Westerosi.

On 30.08.2017 at 9:26 AM, ramla said:

The only real vow he broke (In the Books) was Ygrett

He broke no vows. None at all.

On 30.08.2017 at 9:26 AM, ramla said:

I shall take no wife

He f*cked her, not married with her.

Several brothers of NW often visited whores at nearby village. But they weren't punnished for it. Even though both maester and Lord Commander knew about it.

The oath does require them to be celibate (i.e. not to marry), but it doesn't require them to become assexual. The only problem is that there is no women at Night's Watch. Doesn't mean that they can't go elsewhere to scratch that itch.

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and at the very end when he decided to ride to winterfell.

You mean after he was killed, or am I missing something?

On 30.08.2017 at 0:00 PM, Armand Gargalen said:

You can bold the wording as much as you like, it is still wording.

He died. That's a fact, not a matter of wording.

On 30.08.2017 at 0:00 PM, Armand Gargalen said:

In a society where dying and being resurrected is not commonplace, until my death is a poetic way of saying FOR EVER, because dying and coming back from the dead are simply not expected to happen.

That's why people to whom resurection did happen, should be excluded from everyone else. They are special. If they were brought back to life, then it means that they have mission that is much more important than simply being Brothers of Night's Watch. Gods have plans for them, that go beyond being stuck forever on the Wall.

On 30.08.2017 at 0:00 PM, Armand Gargalen said:

As for his brothers killing him, it was just part, not all of them. He could have easily executed them for treason (what he did) and continue leading the ones who stayed loyal. 

I think that killing them was personal for him - they killed him, he killed them. And treason, or brotherly customs of Night's Watch had nothing to do with it. Plain and simple grudge.

On 30.08.2017 at 0:00 PM, Armand Gargalen said:

I strongly believe that the showrunners giving Jon a "free pass" out of the Watch was an awful decision, that really diluted his character. GRRM has created a universe where vows are more than important, they are an identity definer. As Jaime told Cat, these vows create conflict in the heart, which is one of, if not the, main themes in ASOIF.

By letting Jon out of his vows via the wording and without the shadow of a doubt form him is beyond deviating from the source material, is going  AGAINST what the source material tells us.

I'm wondering what you will be saying when George Martin will do the same with Jon's character in books. 

In the very beginning, when Jon pledged himself to Night's Watch, I thought that it's a waste of a promising character, that had the biggest potential to become a hero, and main character of a Song. Out of all Stark children, the bastard was the most interesting. I was disapointed that he will be stuck on the Wall. But then - BAM - he got killed - and then BAM again - he was resurected. Perfect exit out of Night's Watch and without breaking any vows. JUST PERFECT B)

On 30.08.2017 at 0:09 PM, falcotron said:

Then again, I'm not aware of any cases of people who were innocent of bigamy because they reasonably believed they themselves were dead.

What about amnesia? For example a married person got into an accident, had an amnesia, was unrecognized, dubbed as Jon Smith, started new life, and eventually got married. Maybe even read his own nekrolog somewhere in a newspaper. Innocent of bigamy. Unaware of it.

On 30.08.2017 at 0:23 PM, Armand Gargalen said:

Just for the sake of comparison, let´s examine what the other character who had died and was resurrected did after his resurrection.

Lord Berric had been tasked by Ned Stark to kill or capture the Mountain in the name of the King. When he is killed, he does not say: "Hey chaps, I died so I guess this mission is finished for me. I am going back to my fancy home at the Stormlands and this guy here, Anguy, will be your new leader. Good luck". 

Instead, his resolve grows stronger, because he believes that he is been brought back to continue his mission. 

And before it is mentioned, I am aware than his orders did not include the until your death wording. It was still implied that he would follow them until he completed his task or died trying.

 

He may be doing useful deeds and helping people, but what that has to do with his original mission? Has he killed or captured Mountain? No, he didn't. And he isn't even trying to go to King's Landing where Mountain is. He broke his oath, and is doing whatever he pleases.

On 30.08.2017 at 4:00 PM, Hajk1984 said:

Cersei's preparation, as per Jaime, was not too effective. And now that Dany knows about it she'll avoid coming too far down. Remember that in the initial conquest, Aegon the conqueror actually lost a dragon to a similar device in Dorne.

Actually it was an average crossbow, and its arrow got shot into eye of Aegon's sister, and she fell of the dragon. Don't remember what happend with the dragon, but it also died. Later one of Dorhish princesses gave skull of that dragon as a token of goodwill to Aegon, and he later married with her.

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On 01.09.2017 at 7:09 PM, Super Mario said:

In relationships Dany has always been chased (Daario, Duck Sauce from Qarth) or taken (Drogo). She has zero experience with the cat and mouse game that real people play in a burgeoning romance. Jon has even less experience. He's only had one girlfriend his whole life, and that literally a lifetime ago! Add into that his shyness and the way he broods, his seriousness and sense of duty... this guy has no clue how to romance an ordinary woman nevermind a breathtakingly beautiful, dragon riding queen. Together they're like a couple middle school kids trying to get together at a school dance.

Actually I liked it very much how development of their relationship was portraid in the show. Especially the fact that Dany fell in love first, and her conversation with Tyrion was funny in that sense - "and this...Jon Snow" :wub:

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On 01.09.2017 at 7:23 PM, Apoplexy said:

And scenes with the dragons were extremely well done and made for a really good viewing experience.

And scene where Jon was bonding with Drogon, was very impressive, and a very good acting on Kit's side.

On 01.09.2017 at 7:31 PM, Apoplexy said:

They are unaware that they are related, which makes the pairing interesting. I would be disappointed if they are ok with it next season because it's something targs have been doing forever. I'm hoping for the show universe to stop condoning incest.

Then you're watching wrong show.

I don't remember people ever criticizing Jaime x Cersei as much as they are criticizing now Jon x Dany. People are more Ok with twincest, than with aunt x nephew.

On 01.09.2017 at 7:31 PM, Apoplexy said:

Even with Jaime and Cersei, they live in a universe where monarchs marry siblings, which makes me understand how they view it as acceptable as gross as it is. Not to mention the dysfunctional Lannister family. But that's off topic.

Why people are so against Jon x Dany, but criticizing wrongness of Jaime x Cersei is off topic? Even Sansa's rape was better received by viewers, than recent amour of Wolf and Dragon. Lion x Lion is more acceptable?

In modern world marriage between aunt and nephew is legal in Argentina, Australia, Austria, Brazil, Finland, Malaysia, the Netherlands, and Russia. If it's legal even in modern world, then why should it be an abomination for medieval world of Westeros? In Seven Kingdoms marriage between first cousing are a frequent thing. Most likely marriages between aunt and nephew, or uncle and niece are also acceptable there.

On 02.09.2017 at 10:06 PM, Apoplexy said:

What I would wish is that the Westeros stops excusing incest even for the targs.

Seems to me that Valyrians are representatives of a different race than other inhabitants of Planetos. They are closer in appearance to First Men or to Andals, than to Children of the Forest, but they are still different species than humans.

Planetos species are similar to those from Northern mythology. Valyrians are like Light Elves from Alfheimr, Children are Dwarves or Dark elves from Nioavellir, and First Men and Andals are Vanir from Vanaheimr.

So if Valyrians are indeed from different species, then it's totally understandable that they prefer to intermarry with each other, and not to marry with monkeys. If Adam and Eve were brother and sister, and besides them there were only animals, then ofcourse they would prefer to have sex and have children between them, than to perform breeding with lesses species. Targaryens are fireproof, at least those of them who won most of Valyrian genes out of gene pool. And being fireproof is unhuman, so they are not humans. They are superior species, and they are also beautiful, and very strong in a sense of natural magic - they can bond with dragons, the most powerful magical beings. They are fire/light elves. And after fall of Valyria only few of them were left. So they had no choice, except family interbreeding.

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

She was so unimpressed by Drogon, that it was anticlimactic -_-

Just a quick note: She was in awe of the dragon, so much that she had trouble keeping a neutral face.
At least according to Lena Heady herself.

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

I'm wondering what you will be saying when George Martin will do the same with Jon's character in books. 

 

GRRM can no longer do that in the books. Jon already deserted the Watch in the books, before he died. So he can not leave it again. It won´t happen.

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1 hour ago, Armand Gargalen said:

GRRM can no longer do that in the books. Jon already deserted the Watch in the books, before he died. So he can not leave it again. It won´t happen.

He hadn't actually left, he was killed before that. Was Jon intending to go to Winterfell, and not come back to NW, after the battle would be over?

It's not definite whether he was going to become a deserter. Or is he still considered as deserter, even if he was intending to come back?

 

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

He hadn't actually left, he was killed before that. Was Jon intending to go to Winterfell, and not come back to NW, after the battle would be over?

It's not definite whether he was going to become a deserter. Or is he still considered as deserter, even if he was intending to come back?

 

It is indeed a matter of opinion whether he deserted or not when he decided to take Winterfell. As I have already said in this thread, both opinions have their merit.

But the point is that a lot of people in the Watch thought him a deserter, and it is highly unlikely that, if he is resurrected (and this is still an if for me) he will be admitted back in the Watch.

So, the way I see it,  at the end of ADWD Jon is not in the Watch any more, so the character can not do what he did in the show.

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54 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

This is a good analysis for why Jon bent the knee.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jennaguillaume/bendany?utm_term=.bxgZ04lZK#.gxRAoGrAN

 

That is a good break down. I think his talk with Tormund had a lot to do with him bending. It was the second time he was accused having too much pride to save his people. 

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17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Seems to me that Valyrians are representatives of a different race than other inhabitants of Planetos. They are closer in appearance to First Men or to Andals, than to Children of the Forest, but they are still different species than humans.

Planetos species are similar to those from Northern mythology. Valyrians are like Light Elves from Alfheimr, Children are Dwarves or Dark elves from Nioavellir, and First Men and Andals are Vanir from Vanaheimr.

So if Valyrians are indeed from different species, then it's totally understandable that they prefer to intermarry with each other, and not to marry with monkeys. If Adam and Eve were brother and sister, and besides them there were only animals, then ofcourse they would prefer to have sex and have children between them, than to perform breeding with lesses species. Targaryens are fireproof, at least those of them who won most of Valyrian genes out of gene pool. And being fireproof is unhuman, so they are not humans. They are superior species, and they are also beautiful, and very strong in a sense of natural magic - they can bond with dragons, the most powerful magical beings. They are fire/light elves. And after fall of Valyria only few of them were left. So they had no choice, except family interbreeding.

I can see the Targaryens being a different race, but saying they are a different species would be pushing it. If they were a different species, it would've been pretty difficult for them to procreate with the Westerosi or other 'humans', something that they done quite easily in the past.

I for one was always critical of Jaime and Cersei. So it's not that I'm only criticizing Jon and Dany.

Everything that's acceptable in the modern world isn't  always right. You might think incest/inbreeding is acceptable if you control the percentage of shared genes. I think there is a better way, don't knowingly marry within your family so you won't end up with shared genes, thus endangering the health of your successors. Time will tell which of these opinions hold muster, based on how future generations view the subject.

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23 hours ago, Megorova said:

Aegon wasn't alone. Both of his sisters were also riding dragons. And they were unable to conquir Dorne, only because one of sisters were killed by dornish arrow, shot in her eye, and fell off her dragon from big height. Also now Dany has only two dragons, and one of them is smaller. Seems to me that even Drogon isn't as big as dragons of first Targarien rulers of Westeros. Underneath Red Keep there are skulls bigger than Drogon's. If dragon is smaller, then it flyes lower and slower, so there's more chances to kill it. Even Drogon was seriosly wounded by Bronn's arrow-spear. Dany has lesser chances to conquir Westeros. Especially because she made a very wrong choise with her timing. She should have stayed at Essos.

yes he had his sisters but in terms of forces he didn't have near what she did. Also in the show drogon is as big as balerion was. I remember hearing that somewhere and based on the skull we saw compare to drogon...

And she only has to fight the lannisters and their allies where as aegon had to fight almost everyone. So dany has it alot easier in terms of human forces she faces.

Also if she hadn't come there would be no chance of beating the WW. And it would be winter forever. If the long night actually happened where it was night all the time then everything in the world would die. I am sure the night king would be able to get past the wall somehow. 

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It bothers me too. Dany simply coming to Jon's rescue is not enough to prove she'd be a worthy queen over the North. That just proves her willingness to use her dragons as weapons against the army of the dead. She also used them as weapons against the Tarlys... two men who defied her because she brought a Dothraki hoard (known for their culture of rape and pillaging) and an unsullied army to Westeros. So she has proven that she will kill proven and effective leaders without even having any kind of an honest conversation with them for not pledging blind loyalty to her. The Tarly's betrayal of the Tyrels was a weak excuse to execute them. Randyl Tarly did what he thought was necessary to protect his country from an army he perceives to be rapists and savages coming to destroy their people and lands. That's not treason. That's doing his duty as a leader of his lands and defender of his country. Dany does not have the imagination or empathy to see a situation from the perspective of the locals.

So... Dany came to her crush's aid. That's not enough to bend the knee. 

Now think about the Northeners and what they suffered. They suffered death and destruction at the Red Wedding and the Ironborn invasion. They suffered through the tyrannical rule of the Boltons. They suffered through Ned Stark's execution... their worthy and tested leader who served his people as loyally as they served him... because the ruler/subject relationship is a two way street.

Now Jon bent the knee to her because he's in love with her and she came to his aid. He's a whipped lovesick puppy. (I hate to say that because he is my second favorite character next to Arya).

He even told her she deserves it. Love makes people do stupid things. She doesn't deserve it. Not yet.

The north has been betrayed, slaughtered, and truly suffered over 6 seasons. Being a king's daughter, romantically involved with Jon, and willing to help fight the Night's King is a lot, but not enough to bend the knee. Proving to the North, not just Jon, that she can rule justly with dignity and respect like Ned Stark did is a good start. 

Don't get me wrong, Dany did a lot of good in Essos, but that's Essos. It's not the North. She needs to do right by the North if she wants them to bow down to her. Her own trials and tribulations don't mean squat. She wants to sit on a throne above everyone else. In order to do that, she needs to think about the pain and suffering the people she wants to rule has gone through. She needs to do right by the people she wants to rule first. Aegon the Conqueror built the Iron Throne on the concept that a rulers seat should never be a comfortable seat. She honestly doesn't seem like the type of monarch that gets that concept. Burning people is with dragons is easy. Having the vision and ability to set aside her pride and win over the kingdoms before deciding to execute them without so much as a trial (a concept she understood in Mereen) is hard, but the right thing to do.

So yeah... I totally agree with you. It bothers me that he bent the knee to Dany without her really proving herself. Helping with the Night's King is a good start, but still not quite enough.

It's a little disappointing how the Jon/Dany romantic subplot took this fanfiction/fairytale turn. It's like who cares about every other injustice that's happened in the story, white walkers are coming and the hot hero and the hot heroine are in love, so let's make them the good guys no matter what. And that concludes my rant. 

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5 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I can see the Targaryens being a different race, but saying they are a different species would be pushing it. If they were a different species, it would've been pretty difficult for them to procreate with the Westerosi or other 'humans', something that they done quite easily in the past.

I think that Planetos humanoid species are this: Valyrians, Giants, Children of the Forest, humans (while First Men, Andals, Asshai, Rhoynars, Dothraki, etc. <- variety of human races).

In wikia Valyrians and 27 others are stated as 'Human cultures' of Planetos, while Giants, Others and Children are 'Other sentients'. Though I think that it's wrong - no other human race of Planetos has abilities similar to Valyrian. All others don't have any supernatural properties. So I doubt that Valyrians are humans <- though that's only my personal opinion.

Also different species can procreate, if they are sexually compatiable.

For example dogs and wolves.

Dogs and wolves both are representatives of genus Canis.

Dogs, wolves - species.

Grey wolf, Dire wolf (extinct), African golden wolf, Eastern wolf - wolf's breed/race.

Labrador, Shepherd, Poodle - dog's breed/race.

Valyrians, Giants, Children, humans are representatives of genus Homo.

Valyrians, Humans - species.

First Men, Andals, Dothraki - races.

While human species on Planetos have variety of different races, Valyrians are a sole representatives of their species.

Dogs and wolves can procreate because they are from the same genus - Canis. And Valyrians can procreate with Humans because they both are also from the same genus - Homo. So that makes Dany 'Homo Valyrian Valyrian', and Jon is 'Homo Human/Valyrian First Men/Valyrian'.

Other examples of crossbreeding between different species:

male donkey + female horse = mule

male lion + female tiger = liger, female lion + male tiger = tigon

serval + domestic cat = savannah

camel + llama = cama.

Of course crossbreeding is rarely successful, and thus dangerous. So it's understandable that Valyrians prefer interbreeding over crossbreeding. Also for Targaryens it isn't necessary to interbreed with other Targaryens, unfortunately, there's nearly no other pure Valyrians left. Though King Aerys did sent his cousin Steffon Baratheon to Volantis, to find a bride for Rhaegar of "proud Valyrian blood".

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9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think that Planetos humanoid species are this: Valyrians, Giants, Children of the Forest, humans (while First Men, Andals, Asshai, Rhoynars, Dothraki, etc. <- variety of human races).

In wikia Valyrians and 27 others are stated as 'Human cultures' of Planetos, while Giants, Others and Children are 'Other sentients'. Though I think that it's wrong - no other human race of Planetos has abilities similar to Valyrian. All others don't have any supernatural properties. So I doubt that Valyrians are humans <- though that's only my personal opinion.

Also different species can procreate, if they are sexually compatiable.

For example dogs and wolves.

Dogs and wolves both are representatives of genus Canis.

Dogs, wolves - species.

Grey wolf, Dire wolf (extinct), African golden wolf, Eastern wolf - wolf's breed/race.

Labrador, Shepherd, Poodle - dog's breed/race.

Valyrians, Giants, Children, humans are representatives of genus Homo.

Valyrians, Humans - species.

First Men, Andals, Dothraki - races.

While human species on Planetos has a variety of different races, Valyrians are a sole representatives of their species.

Dogs and wolves can procreate because they are from the same genus - Canis. And Valyrians can procreate with Humans because they both are also from the same genus - Homo. So that makes Dany 'Homo Valyrian Valyrian', and Jon is 'Homo Human First Man'.

Other examples of crossbreeding between different species:

male donkey + female horse = mule

male lion + female tiger = liger, female lion + male tiger = tigon

serval + domestic cat = savannah

camel + llama = cama.

Of course crossbreeding is rarely successful, and thus dangerous. So it's understandable that Valyrians prefer interbreeding over crossbreeding. Also for Targaryens it isn't necessery to interbreed with other Targaryens, unfortunately, there's nearly no other pure Valyrians left. Though King Aerys did sent his cousin Steffon Baratheon to Volantis, to find a bride for Rhaegar of "proud Valyrian blood".

Well, Targaryens are similar to humans in almost every respect. The differences you see could most likely be attributed to them being a different race. As for their unique abilities such as heat resistance, it is just as likely possible that Targaryen ancestors lived in really hot surroundings and hence adapted accordingly.

And it's true, interspecies breeding is possible. But the offsprings usually look significantly different that the parents. Also, most mules are sterile. Offsprings of other interspecies breeding are also mostly sterile, especially males. Male and female children of Targaryens and other humans have been known to be fertile. So I see no evidence of Targaryens being a separate species.

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I have a question about Jon Snow.  Ever since he was resurrected, it seems that he can't "die".  He should have been trampled to death in the Battle of the Bastards and should have drowned in Beyond the Wall.  Does anyone else feel this way?

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15 minutes ago, Queen of the Cavern said:

I have a question about Jon Snow.  Ever since he was resurrected, it seems that he can't "die".  He should have been trampled to death in the Battle of the Bastards and should have drowned in Beyond the Wall.  Does anyone else feel this way?

Well, Jon is one of the protagonists of the story. Protagonists tend to survive really bad odds. Or one could say that he is special because he was resurrected and is somehow magically saved every time.

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