R+L=J v.165

[Magnar, P.I.]

On 9/20/2018 at 3:58 AM, The Sleeper said:

Just to put things into perspective taking a minor without her family's permission, even with said minor's consent or even complicity, still counts as a kidnapping in any context. 

Great point, most R/L shippers choose to forget this, methinks.

On 9/18/2018 at 3:36 PM, Stuart Littlefinger said:

"Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." 

On the other hand, this is nicely done! I've seen this used as a point for R+L=J b/c how Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon looks like Arya, but not for giving agency to Lyanna in the whole ordeal. I think if R/L is true, there must be some kind of twist to it and this could be part of that.

[corbon]

On 9/22/2018 at 7:58 AM, Magnar, P.I. said:

Great point, most R/L shippers choose to forget this, methinks.

I think they just prefer victim-complicit 'kidnappings' to non-consenting forced marriages. 

[kleevedge]

Alright this just came to me and it’s pretty farfetched like most of my ideas, but could the child Lyanna gave birth to (regardless of who it is, but likely Jon in this scenario) be the product of incest, possibly Brandon and Lyanna? Brandon is described as having "the wolf blood", which I take as a nice way of saying he’s a bit mad, and prone to rash decisions and arrogance. Barbrey Dustin stated;

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Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted...but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

The bloody sword line seems to me to be a connection towards Brandon of the Bloody Blade (I will use BotBB from now on to not cause confusion with Brandon Stark). Obviously they share the same namesake but they both also have ties to bloody swords. BotBB is said to have slain so many CotF at Blue Lake it became known as Red Lake. He also has a sister known as Rose of Red Lake, but preceding BotBB’s battles she would be considered Rose of Blue Lake, a metaphor perhaps for blue roses. Lyanna is often remembered of being connected with blue roses. Now I hate tying other theories to new ones, but it is said that BotBB is the father of Brandon the builder, and quite possible the mother could be Rose of Red Lake, which is where the Stark abilities to skinchange could derive from. This would make Bran the builder a child of incest, BotBB and Rose being brother and sister. Blood and roses seem to be a common theme throughout asoiaf;

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Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.

During the tourney of the Hand, Ser Loras was dressed in plate, accented with blue roses made of sapphire. The mountain charged Ser Loras, after he was unhorsed with his “bloody sword”.

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By then Gregor was striding down the lists toward Ser Loras Tyrell, his bloody sword clutched in his fist.

So now again we have a connection with a bloody sword and blue roses.

When Rhaegar gave the laurel of blue roses to Lyanna, Brandon absolutely flipped the fuck out, to the point of needing to be restrained else he harmed the prince. This seems a huge over reaction for Rhaegar giving his sister the laurel, it would dishonor Elia more than it would the Starks.

If Brandon and Lyanna did have a child, Ned would obviously have to keep it a secret, since it was an “abomination” born of incest. This would also be why Ned was sympathetic towards Cersei, after finding out the truth of her children, and trying to send them to exile for the safety of the children, similar to what he did with Jon. Instead of exiling Jon across the narrow sea, he brought him to Winterfell and “exiled” his true identity.

Now I am still a N+A=J supporter, so this theory takes a backseat, but I do like the connections between BotBB and Brandon Stark, and even more so the connections between Rose of Blue Lake and Lyanna Stark.

[Geddus]

4 hours ago, kleevedge said:

Alright this just came to me and it’s pretty farfetched like most of my ideas, but could the child Lyanna gave birth to (regardless of who it is, but likely Jon in this scenario) be the product of incest, possibly Brandon and Lyanna?

Oh god, why? Anyway, no: Jon was born more than a year after Brandon died (if GRRM didn't lie, that is).

[Lord Varys]

On 9/21/2018 at 9:58 PM, Magnar, P.I. said:

Great point, most R/L shippers choose to forget this, methinks.

On the other hand, this is nicely done! I've seen this used as a point for R+L=J b/c how Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon looks like Arya, but not for giving agency to Lyanna in the whole ordeal. I think if R/L is true, there must be some kind of twist to it and this could be part of that.

Going by Lya's age, she is either another Dany, and thus was as much raped/sexually abused by her mid-twenties 'husband', or she gets agency in the whole thing - but then she is going to be described as the seductress/femme fatale type of girl-woman at a remarkable early age.

Keep in mind that Lyanna is only 13-14 at Harrenhal, about the same age as Dany when she first meets Drogo. Lya would be more like Arya, of course, but purple eyes and platinum hair aside, Rhaegar is still a married man and about ten years her senior. As per the values of the society the guys live in Lyanna can only soil herself by trying to get laid by Rhaegar.

Even in a polygamy setting she would be 'the whore', just as Alys Harroway was, not to mention 'the second wife' who thrust herself between an already married couple who already had two children.

And considering her age it would indeed always be rape/abduction because Lyanna Stark is not free to go wherever the hell she wants - or rather, her brothers and father have the right to demand her back. In a sense, they can defend 'her honor' no matter what her own opinion on the matter is.

On 9/24/2018 at 7:02 AM, corbon said:

I think they just prefer victim-complicit 'kidnappings' to non-consenting forced marriages. 

But those are most in Westeros, no? Do you think Stannis *wanted* to marry ugly Selyse? Or that Lysa *wanted* to marry old Jon Arryn.

The pressure Hoster Tully put on his wayward daughter should be about in the same league, give or take, as the pressure Cersei put on Sansa - which also did not include threats of actual, physical violence. For a privileged young woman the thought of losing all her money, connections, and her entire family if she dared defy her father should be a very strong deterrent.

I mean, just take Rhaenyra's story - it is clear that she was forced to marry Laenor Velaryon against her will and that her father essentially blackmailed her into this by threatening to take something away from her she really wanted. This was not a consensual marriage - in fact, by Westerosi standards it might not be a marriage at all, considering that the spouses may have agreed to never actually consummate it.

And so on and so forth. Mostly women would have the worst of that, of course, being forced to obey their husbands and not being allowed to entertain lovers and paramours - unlike men, who can have a healthy sex life outside of marriage - or even completely ignore their wife like King Aerys I apparently did.

[Geddus]

Basically every highborn in Westeros (and probably the not-so-highborn as well) has no choice in marriage and that's true for both men and women. Exceptions are third or fourth sons, who may be allowed to marry whoever they please, or lords that come into their title while still unwed like Bobby B. But while force marriages are pretty much the norm, the one doing the "forcing" is usually a parent or grandparent, not a stranger.

[Frey family reunion]

14 hours ago, Geddus said:

Oh god, why? Anyway, no: Jon was born more than a year after Brandon died (if GRRM didn't lie, that is).

If you're referring to the SSM where George said that Jon was born 8 to 9 months before Dany, then I'm not sure that would have been more than a year after Brandon's death.  The most likely time of Dany's conception was when Aerys raped Rhaella when Jaime and Jon Darry stood guard (making a few assumptions as to Dany's actual parentage).  So that event had to have happened before Darry rode off to fight at the Trident.  And the Trident happened before the Sack, and the war had waged almost a year at the time of the Sack.

[kleevedge]

33 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you're referring to the SSM where George said that Jon was born 8 to 9 months before Dany, then I'm not sure that would have been more than a year after Brandon's death.  The most likely time of Dany's conception was when Aerys raped Rhaella when Jaime and Jon Darry stood guard (making a few assumptions as to Dany's actual parentage).  So that event had to have happened before Darry rode off to fight at the Trident.  And the Trident happened before the Sack, and the war had waged almost a year at the time of the Sack.

To me 10 months is almost a year. A full term pregnancy is anywhere between 38 and 40 weeks.

[Geddus]

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you're referring to the SSM where George said that Jon was born 8 to 9 months before Dany, then I'm not sure that would have been more than a year after Brandon's death.  The most likely time of Dany's conception was when Aerys raped Rhaella when Jaime and Jon Darry stood guard (making a few assumptions as to Dany's actual parentage).  So that event had to have happened before Darry rode off to fight at the Trident.  And the Trident happened before the Sack, and the war had waged almost a year at the time of the Sack.

Dany could have easily been conceived after Aerys burned lord Chelsted, which happened after the battle of the Trident.

Anyway, it took time, probably months, for the war to start after Lyanna's disappearance so all in all, a year if not more seems accurate to me.

Not to mention that I don't see any reason, any clue, any suggestion that could point to a sexual relationship between Brandon and Lyanna Stark.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Geddus said:

Dany could have easily been conceived after Aerys burned lord Chelsted, which happened after the battle of the Trident.

According to Jaime's recollection, Lord Chelsted's burning had to have happened before the Trident because Jon Darry was still alive:

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But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

 

2 hours ago, Geddus said:

Anyway, it took time, probably months, for the war to start after Lyanna's disappearance so all in all, a year if not more seems accurate to me.

As of now, this is a big question mark.  I don't think we've been given enough info.  I'd say given the number of trips to King's Landing, at least a month.

2 hours ago, Geddus said:

Not to mention that I don't see any reason, any clue, any suggestion that could point to a sexual relationship between Brandon and Lyanna Stark.

Of course we just have to turn to the Jaime/Cersei example to see that outside of the Targaryens incestuous relations were kept very secret.  But we do have a few potential clues.  First and foremost is Brandon's extreme reaction to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna after the Harrenhal tourney.  

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The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.

Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her?  Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End. Eddard Stark, Brandon’s younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased.

If we turn to George's most probable inspiration behind the Harrenhal tourney and the crown of Love and Beauty, Ivanhoe, Brandon reacting more hotly than Robert at this "slight" is a bit confusing.  In Ivanhoe, the mystery knight of the tourney awards the crown of love and beauty to a lady already betrothed to another man.  Her betrothed takes great offense and is determined to have revenge against the mystery knight, however the lady's family is very honored over the award, considering it a show of respect to their family and their Saxon heritage.  

The maester of the World Book kind of wonders the same thing.  After all, the awarding of the crown of Love and Beauty doesn't have to be considered a sexual overture.  It could very well be considered an attempt to flatter and woo the Stark family.  (Now of course, the choice of Winter Roses and the tale of Bael the Bard could be a factor in the Stark's reaction.  Whether the Starks or Rhaegar were aware of this tale is another question).  

Then we have the possible scenario that both Lyanna and Brandon were being forced into marriages that neither wanted because of their father's Southron ambitions.  

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“The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together …”

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“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

And during at least part of this the time frame of their unhappy betrothals, Lyanna and Brandon may have been together at Barrowtown:

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“Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I’d later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two.”

Then Eddard speaks these siblings commonality of blood:

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“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born.

Brandon and blood is mentioned again hinting at Brandon's lustful disposition:

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“He would hate that.” She pulled off her glove and touched his knee, pale flesh against dark stone. “Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. ‘I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman’s cunt,’ he used to say. And how he loved to use it. ‘A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,’ he told me once.”

“Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes.”

And then George gives a sly comparison between Brandon's blood and Jaime's blood:

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Jaime took a swallow, wiped his mouth. “No doubt Ned wished to spare you. His sweet young bride, if not quite a maiden. Well, you wanted truth. Ask me. We made a bargain, I can deny you nothing. Ask.”
“Dead is dead.” I do not want to know this.
“Brandon was different from his brother, wasn’t he? He had blood in his veins instead of cold water.  More like me.”
“Brandon was nothing like you.”
“If you say so.”

But most significantly we have to look at the foundations of Jon's story arc.  George is certainly inviting us to come to the conclusion that Jon was born from a love affair between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  But he has done nothing to structure Jon's story arc to lead towards this pay off.  

Jon's story arc involves his conflict between his Oath to the Wall and his lust over Winterfell.  This internal conflict continues up until his apparent death in ADWD.  George also has laid a foundation of Jon's conflict with Catelyn over Jon's place in Winterfell.  Catelyn is very protective of her children's claim to Winterfell, and sees Jon as a threat to this claim, which is why she is so adamant against Robb legitimizing Jon.  Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna does nothing to further these story arcs.

Jon being the son of Brandon and Lyanna, however, would further both of these story arcs.  This would make Jon the only son of Brandon, the eldest of Lord Rickon's children.  And Jon's realization of this would only increase his desire for Winterfell and inflame in his heart what was taken from him. This would also set up the earlier conflict between Jon and Catelyn.  Perhaps two vengeful revenants consumed for their desire first for revenge, and then perhaps setting their sights towards Winterfell, the ultimate object of their desire.  

[Geddus]

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

According to Jaime's recollection, Lord Chelsted's burning had to have happened before the Trident because Jon Darry was still alive

I stand corrected then, I thought lord Chelsted was burned after the battle of the Trident. And you're absolutely right about us not having enough info, even tho given travel distances some time has to have passed between Lyanna's disappearence and the start of the war - but it's a fact that GRRM doesn't pay much attention to timelines, so who knows.

As for the rest, I still think that a relationship between Brandon and Lyanna is very far fetched. And I don't see how being a bastard born of incest would strenghten Jon Snow's claim to Winterfell.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

According to Jaime's recollection, Lord Chelsted's burning had to have happened before the Trident because Jon Darry was still alive:

I'm inclined it consider this a mistake - either Jaime's misremembering things intentionally or the author making a mistake in the chronology. After all, we also do know that Rossart was Hand only for a fortnight, which implies him being named Hand around the time of the Trident.

Also, Chelsted challenged the king on the wildfire plot - it would be odd beyond belief if Chelsted went with his knowledge to Aerys alone, rather than taking Rhaegar with him, if he hadn't yet left for the Trident.

People have suggested that the king only chose a new Hand much later after the burning of Chelsted, trying to account for the discrepancy this way. But this is not convincing to me since Rhaegar would have been the obvious choice for the new Hand if the office vacant again while Rhaegar was still at court, nor does it make sense that Aerys would have to think a lot of time to grant the Handship to the man who was executing the plans the last Hand had been desperately trying to prevent. I mean, how long would have Aerys to think about making Rossart his new Hand?

Finally, there is the problem of the wildfire plot itself. Are we to believe Aerys was already preparing for certain doom while chances were still pretty good that the dragon might prevail? Producing wildfire is one thing, deploying it across the city quite another. I assume that only started after Rhaegar left and really took steam after the Trident.

[kleevedge]

14 hours ago, Geddus said:

Dany could have easily been conceived after Aerys burned lord Chelsted, which happened after the battle of the Trident.

Anyway, it took time, probably months, for the war to start after Lyanna's disappearance so all in all, a year if not more seems accurate to me.

Not to mention that I don't see any reason, any clue, any suggestion that could point to a sexual relationship between Brandon and Lyanna Stark.

 

On 9/24/2018 at 7:40 PM, kleevedge said:

Now I am still a N+A=J supporter, so this theory takes a backseat, but I do like the connections between BotBB and Brandon Stark, and even more so the connections between Rose of Blue Lake and Lyanna Stark.

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Geddus said:

As for the rest, I still think that a relationship between Brandon and Lyanna is very far fetched. And I don't see how being a bastard born of incest would strenghten Jon Snow's claim to Winterfell.

Well we have the little matter of Robb having possibly legitimized Jon, which would add to the intrigue of Jon being the son of Brandon.  And Jon being the son of Brandon would be a major reason that Ned couldn't have ever confided in Cat, Jon's true parentage.  

But these fictitious claims really aren't that important.  Jon finding out that he is the son of Brandon could lead him to feel that Winterfell was stolen from him by Ned and Cat.  After all, Ned could have had King Robert legitimize Jon.  But instead Ned leaves Jon in the dark about his parentage and then agrees to send him to the Wall where Jon unknowingly foresakes any possible claim he would have had to Winterfell.

One of the reasons that Jon refuses Stannis' offer to legitimize him and give him Winterfell, is that he believes that he would be stealing Sansa's claim to Winterfell.  Would he have felt the same way if he knew he was the first born and only son, of the first born son of Lord Rickard?

And even after Jon turns down Stannis' offer, Jon's desire for Winterfell continues to haunt him, first his dream:

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The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off.

And then his berserker rage when he sparred with Iron Emmet:

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Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”

That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, he’s down, you disarmed him. Enough!”

No. Not enough. Never enough.

Jon's story arc completely revolves around the Wall and Winterfell, and the conflict he feels between the two.

Rhaegar being Jon's father would distract from this conflict.  Brandon being Jon's father, however...

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm inclined it consider this a mistake - either Jaime's misremembering things intentionally or the author making a mistake in the chronology. After all, we also do know that Rossart was Hand only for a fortnight, which implies him being named Hand around the time of the Trident.

Well he could have used the Worldbook to have cleared it up but instead

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Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart—a man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.

So it's left very vague as to when during the war Aerys burned Chelsted.  But I think the obvious answer is that Rhaegar was acting as a de facto Hand, even if he wasn't technically named the Hand, when he returned to King's Landing, and it wasn't until Rhaegar's death at the Trident that Aerys decided to replace Chelsted.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Finally, there is the problem of the wildfire plot itself. Are we to believe Aerys was already preparing for certain doom while chances were still pretty good that the dragon might prevail? Producing wildfire is one thing, deploying it across the city quite another. I assume that only started after Rhaegar left and really took steam after the Trident.

Well remember, Jaime believes that Aerys thought that he would emerge from the flames reborn as a dragon.  My suspicion is that the Targaryens may have had an obsession about transferring their consciousness into a dragon.  The dragon having three heads may be more literal than we think.  And Aemon's oblique reference to the sphinx being the riddle not the riddler may refer to the Valyrian Sphinx, a dragon with the "head" of a human.  In other words, the riddle is how to transfer their consciousness into a dragon.  Perhaps this is what Summerhall was all about.  Perhaps this might be what the tower of joy was all about as well.

It may very well be that the only thing that stopped Aerys from going through with this plan, was that he was letting Rhaegar try to succeed at the tower of joy.  But Rhaegar's death, and the advancing army triggered plan B to "wake The Dragon".

[SFDanny]

On 9/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, Lord Varys said:

I'm inclined it consider this a mistake - either Jaime's misremembering things intentionally or the author making a mistake in the chronology. After all, we also do know that Rossart was Hand only for a fortnight, which implies him being named Hand around the time of the Trident.

Also, Chelsted challenged the king on the wildfire plot - it would be odd beyond belief if Chelsted went with his knowledge to Aerys alone, rather than taking Rhaegar with him, if he hadn't yet left for the Trident.

People have suggested that the king only chose a new Hand much later after the burning of Chelsted, trying to account for the discrepancy this way. But this is not convincing to me since Rhaegar would have been the obvious choice for the new Hand if the office vacant again while Rhaegar was still at court, nor does it make sense that Aerys would have to think a lot of time to grant the Handship to the man who was executing the plans the last Hand had been desperately trying to prevent. I mean, how long would have Aerys to think about making Rossart his new Hand?

Finally, there is the problem of the wildfire plot itself. Are we to believe Aerys was already preparing for certain doom while chances were still pretty good that the dragon might prevail? Producing wildfire is one thing, deploying it across the city quite another. I assume that only started after Rhaegar left and really took steam after the Trident.

There is no discrepancy. Instead, LV, there is a problem with people trying to make timelines that fit their assumptions instead of timelines that fit the facts as we know it. That we get Jaime's memories which tell us Darry was alive when Chelsted is burned and Rhaella raped clearly makes these events prior to Darry's death at the Trident. If you want to call this into question, you need evidence that shows Jaime's memory is faulty. Instead you substitute who you believe would have been Aerys's choice for Hand following Chelsted's death as a fact. It isn't. 

What we know about Rossart's time as Hand is that he ends it on the edge of Jaime's sword during the sack, and that Jaime thinks of it lasting a fortnight. Is this an approximation? We don't know, but there is no reason to believe this makes the time from Chelsted's death to the sack to be two weeks. Again, this is just an assumption on some readers's part. At this point, the best we can say is that the time between Chelsted's death and Aerys's appointment of Rossart as Hand is unknown.

[Magnar, P.I.]

On 9/23/2018 at 10:02 PM, corbon said:

I think they just prefer victim-complicit 'kidnappings' to non-consenting forced marriages. 

Why? Is it better if the 14 year old wanted to be kidnapped and statutorily raped? More complicated, maybe, but not better. I don't know if it's more interesting either, it doesn't even amount to a twist as that version is told to us in the very first Dany chapter in the series.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't wish Robert Baratheon on any woman, but I have a lot of trouble romanticizing Rhaegar in this as well, even if Lyanna was 'complicit'.

[Magnar, P.I.]

On 9/25/2018 at 5:18 AM, Lord Varys said:

Going by Lya's age, she is either another Dany, and thus was as much raped/sexually abused by her mid-twenties 'husband', or she gets agency in the whole thing - but then she is going to be described as the seductress/femme fatale type of girl-woman at a remarkable early age.

Agreed. I don't know how this story is going to shake out but I doubt it will be in a black-and-white trope. I think we can safely regard Lyanna as victim either way, though. Others have suggested she was motivated to produce a child with Rhaegar due to her own obsession with prophecy, perhaps this is true but she was tragically misguided to this conclusion by one of our story's schemers, who recruited her for their own nefarious ends... let's say anyone besides Bloodraven, he gets blamed for enough already. That would undercut ideas of her agency quite a bit but not entirely, and makes her sort of a double victim, which I think adds to the tragedy. Admittedly I'm just spitballing here, but that is one way things could play out that would be a little more interesting and a little less trope-y than the two ideas presented in the text. 

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Agreed. I don't know how this story is going to shake out but I doubt it will be in a black-and-white trope. I think we can safely regard Lyanna as victim either way, though. Others have suggested she was motivated to produce a child with Rhaegar due to her own obsession with prophecy, perhaps this is true but she was tragically misguided to this conclusion by one of our story's schemers, who recruited her for their own nefarious ends... let's say anyone besides Bloodraven, he gets blamed for enough already. That would undercut ideas of her agency quite a bit but not entirely, and makes her sort of a double victim, which I think adds to the tragedy. Admittedly I'm just spitballing here, but that is one way things could play out that would be a little more interesting and a little less trope-y than the two ideas presented in the text. 

Oh, I think George is at least going to paint Harrenhal as a true love story - Rhaegar being impressed by Lya's sense of justice and her courage and bravery once he learns she is the mystery knight. And Lya might be drawn to Rhaegar's softer sides - his songs, his melancholy, etc.

There is space for some sort of proper love story there, but it would still be somewhat strange from an outsider perspective. Since George could sell the Dany-Drogo thing (more or less, at least) he likely could also sell the Lyanna-Rhaegar thing.

But there is a difference between Harrenhal and the later abduction, and another difference between the abduction and Rhaegar-Lya after her brother and father were killed by Rhaegar's dad.

[Magnar, P.I.]

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I think George is at least going to paint Harrenhal as a true love story - Rhaegar being impressed by Lya's sense of justice and her courage and bravery once he learns she is the mystery knight. And Lya might be drawn to Rhaegar's softer sides - his songs, his melancholy, etc.

I suppose, but that is the literal version we're given in the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, I'm still expecting that to get subverted in some way.

 

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is space for some sort of proper love story there, but it would still be somewhat strange from an outsider perspective. Since George could sell the Dany-Drogo thing (more or less, at least) he likely could also sell the Lyanna-Rhaegar thing.

Great point, Dany-Drogo was incredibly cringey right up to the moment where you saw a little bit of unexpected sweetness and depth, although it unavoidably remained pretty cringey throughout but less brutally so. I guess if anyone can evoke mixed feelings about this kind of thing it's George!