Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Like Curled Finger, I don't believe there is any humanity left in her.  The question comes down to why she was animated or what power directed Beric to do so.

Check your inbox.

[divica]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Interesting. I agree she probably has not gotten over her hatred of Jon Snow but it would be some redemption if she had - for Cat & UnCat. Maybe she intends to crown one of her daughters? I can't see her crowning herself - at least I hope not. Is there anything you can think of she may need Jaime for in this potential crowning? 

It was Robb's wish to name Jon his heir so maybe it's not out of the realm of possibility that she intends to crown Jon? Of course if she knows or finds out Arya, Bran, or Rickon are alive it removes the need Robb had to name Jon his heir. Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion although I don't know what the rules are for nullifying an unconsumated marriage when your husband is wanted by the crown & has went into hiding. 

Actually she might want to crown jon so that he can rally the north to avenge her kids. At this moment she shouldn t hate jon so much because all her kids are probably dead (in her pov) so he can t steal their inheritance.

I think that if she keeps robb crown with her it will be a constant remainder that her son was king. That he wanted the north defended and that he chose jon to do so in his last will. Sooner or later she will have to follow robb's wishes in order to honnor him because the north is in the hands of boltons and freys. And it would be huge if she abandons her revenge on the freys to go north and make jon king as robb wanted.

Obviously, if she finds any of her kids it would ruin this arc =(

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, the text doesn't give us a definitive answer. I see two possibilities: either Ryman Frey disobeyed Jaime and took the crown w/ him when he took off, or someone smuggled it out of RR and it made its way to LSH. I have always thought of the BwB as a much larger group than just its "active members". I think it's very likely that most of the small folk in the Riverlands support the BwB in one way or another. Passing on information and supplies, that sort of thing. If this assumption is correct, it wouldn't be difficult for someone going into the castle - say a tradesman or something like that - to smuggle it out and deliver it to someone in the BwB. 

As to Jeyne's crown, I think it's unlikely she still has it. I think her mother does, and her mother is on her way back to the westerlands w/ the rest of her remaining family.

LSH's crown is prevalent when introduced and throughout the chapter.   It's pointing to something or it's a lousy stinking red herring!  

You've laid out a very reasonable delivery system for this crown the QOWs was wearing.   Remember the part about the crown being askew on her head?   That leads me to believe the crown didn't fit or there was some wicked activity going on, but I'm going with didn't fit for the sake of discussion.   The crown may have been too large or small for her head.   

Jamie finds Sybell to be most distasteful.  I can only go on her replies to Jamie and agree with him on that count.  It's safe to say she wouldn't allow her daughter to hang on to that crown.   Sybell is back in the Lannister fold, about to take up residence at Castamere with marriages for all her children--including Jeyne.  She got rid of the crown.  I envision her tossing it from a window to the yard and someone picking it up, maybe the QOWs even.  A crown is deeply symbolic of power and authority.  Jeyne is adamant in proclaiming her love for Robb.  Jamie would certainly know enough to destroy any opposing crown he happened to find (wild speculation--surprise!)  

Yes I am "stuck" on this but not for the sake of being right.   I've had a head cannon true, but it's based in the text or at least my interpretation of it.  It's extremely odd to see this crown or these crowns pop up in the story.   It means something.   Maybe as you say, they are the same crown.  But why have an interaction with Sybell and Jeyne that addresses Jeyne's crown at all if not to stress 2 crowns? 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

Brienne:  I think she is lying to Jaime.  I think she either has a plan or hopes to devise one with Jaime's help, so I do not think she is deliberately leading him into a trap.  Telling a simple falsehood like this should be relatively easy, even for Brienne.  It is just to get him away from the camp.

I don't think she has a plan or has the time for one. I doubt the BwB trusts her enough to let her in on the information of where they are hiding out. I suspect Brienne was taken out of there with a bag over her head and that whoever accompanied her to Pennytree could be watching her and waiting for her to bring Jaime to them, where both his and Brienne's heads will be bagged so that they don't know where they are going. 

I remember being shocked at the BwB the first time I read AFFC. I'm mostly wondering how much it will take someone like Thoros to leave. Lem just seems to have gone off the deep end, if anything. 

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

LSH's crown is prevalent when introduced and throughout the chapter.   It's pointing to something or it's a lousy stinking red herring!  

You've laid out a very reasonable delivery system for this crown the QOWs was wearing.   Remember the part about the crown being askew on her head?   That leads me to believe the crown didn't fit or there was some wicked activity going on, but I'm going with didn't fit for the sake of discussion.   The crown may have been too large or small for her head.   

Jamie finds Sybell to be most distasteful.  I can only go on her replies to Jamie and agree with him on that count.  It's safe to say she wouldn't allow her daughter to hang on to that crown.   Sybell is back in the Lannister fold, about to take up residence at Castamere with marriages for all her children--including Jeyne.  She got rid of the crown.  I envision her tossing it from a window to the yard and someone picking it up, maybe the QOWs even.  A crown is deeply symbolic of power and authority.  Jeyne is adamant in proclaiming her love for Robb.  Jamie would certainly know enough to destroy any opposing crown he happened to find (wild speculation--surprise!)  

Yes I am "stuck" on this but not for the sake of being right.   I've had a head cannon true, but it's based in the text or at least my interpretation of it.  It's extremely odd to see this crown or these crowns pop up in the story.   It means something.   Maybe as you say, they are the same crown.  But why have an interaction with Sybell and Jeyne that addresses Jeyne's crown at all if not to stress 2 crowns? 

Absolutely agree that Martin goes out of his way to make us aware there are two crowns... Why? No effing clue! 

But we don't get any description of Jeyne's crown... only that she wanted to keep it, and her mother wouldn't let her. Now, we do get a description of the crown w/ the QoW's, and it matches the description of Robb's crown: bronze w/ iron swords and runes inscribed on it. This is what makes me think the crown w/ the QoW is Robb's.  

Sybell Westerling is awful. She should divorce her husband and marry Randyll Tarly, and together they could write a book: "How to Be the Worst Parent You Can in 10 Easy Steps", or "Awful Parenting for Dummies".

 

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think she has a plan or has the time for one. I doubt the BwB trusts her enough to let her in on the information of where they are hiding out. I suspect Brienne was taken out of there with a bag over her head and that whoever accompanied her to Pennytree could be watching her and waiting for her to bring Jaime to them, where both his and Brienne's heads will be bagged so that they don't know where they are going. 

I remember being shocked at the BwB the first time I read AFFC. I'm mostly wondering how much it will take someone like Thoros to leave. Lem just seems to have gone off the deep end, if anything. 

I am not sure about this... Right before Brienne shows up we have Jaime's thoughts on posting scouts all around, so as to no not risk a surprise attack. 

I think the BwB is keeping Brienne in check w/ the threat on Pod and Hunt's lives. 

[Curled Finger]

12 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think she has a plan or has the time for one. I doubt the BwB trusts her enough to let her in on the information of where they are hiding out. I suspect Brienne was taken out of there with a bag over her head and that whoever accompanied her to Pennytree could be watching her and waiting for her to bring Jaime to them, where both his and Brienne's heads will be bagged so that they don't know where they are going. 

I remember being shocked at the BwB the first time I read AFFC. I'm mostly wondering how much it will take someone like Thoros to leave. Lem just seems to have gone off the deep end, if anything. 

Welcome to the conversation, Widow's Watch!  

I think you're probably right about the BWB not trusting Brienne with their location and secreted her to Pennytree.   That's part of why I believe "the Hound" Brienne mentions is probably Lem in his nifty helm down the road a bit.  I was shocked at the corruption of the BWB in AFFC, too.  Moreover, Thoros' confidences (if he hasn't made his feelings well known) to Brienne tell me something is beyond wrong and he or Brienne may be the key to overthrowing this current management.  

I bet you were horrified to see Hyle and Pod and Brienne hung.  We know Brienne was in transition between life and death here.  Could it be she actually died and Thoros kissed her?  Yes, I know that's wild speculation (you get used to it with me!) but Brienne is not a liar.   She's not wired for deception in the least.   If she really outright lied to Jamie at Pennytree, could it be that she is really changed?  

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Absolutely agree that Martin goes out of his way to make us aware there are two crowns... Why? No effing clue! 

But we don't get any description of Jeyne's crown... only that she wanted to keep it, and her mother wouldn't let her. Now, we do get a description of the crown w/ the QoW's, and it matches the description of Robb's crown: bronze w/ iron swords and runes inscribed on it. This is what makes me think the crown w/ the QoW is Robb's.  

Sybell Westerling is awful. She should divorce her husband and marry Randyll Tarly, and together they could write a book: "How to Be the Worst Parent You Can in 10 Easy Steps", or "Awful Parenting for Dummies".

 

Ah so well said!  I get it now.  Thank you for taking the crowns a step further with the description.  OK, we've got 1 crown over 2 chapters and a missing crown of unknown description.  (Sort of reminds me of Aegon's & Torrhen Stark's missing crowns.)

Love the potential love connection and match up in the bold.   I expect or hope we will see Sybell get hers very early in TWOW. 

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I am not sure about this... Right before Brienne shows up we have Jaime's thoughts on posting scouts all around, so as to no not risk a surprise attack. 

I think the BwB is keeping Brienne in check w/ the threat on Pod and Hunt's lives. 

Why not a combination of both scenarios?  She's bagged to a certain point then allowed to leave with the insurance of Pod's fate to keep her in line...

Much is made of the location of LSH's gang over Jamie's chapters.   This means something too, but I'm not there yet.   Ideas? 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Love the potential love connection and match up in the bold.   I expect or hope we will see Sybell get hers very early in TWOW. 

Karma is a bitch, even especially in Westeros! 

Wasn't there some speculation on Jeyne Westerling Stark being in the prologue in Winds? Was that based on anything concrete or was it just speculation? I can't remember...

 

[Curled Finger]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Karma is a bitch, even in Westeros! 

Wasn't there some speculation on Jeyne Westerling Stark being in the prologue in Winds? Was that based on anything concrete or was it just speculation? I can't remember...

 

There was!  As I recall GRRM said he we would see Jeyne in the prologue of TWOW.   Happy day!

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Why not a combination of both scenarios?  She's bagged to a certain point then allowed to leave with the insurance of Pod's fate to keep her in line...

Much is made of the location of LSH's gang over Jamie's chapters.   This means something too, but I'm not there yet.   Ideas? 

Yeah, a combo of both these scenarios makes sense... 

And I don't know about LSH's location as of the end of ADwD... If she is near Pennytree when Jaime and Brienne meet, she's near RR. Like, really near it. But is she? I honestly can't remember...

 

[Curled Finger]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, a combo of both these scenarios makes sense... 

And I don't know about LSH's location as of the end of ADwD... If she is near Pennytree when Jaime and Brienne meet, she's near RR. Like, really near it. But is she? I honestly can't remember...

 

Best as I could tell, the BWB under Lady Stoneheart’s management, is north of Hags Mire enroute to the Neck.  If this is true and it is only a day’s ride from Pennytree to this location it is only another day to the neck.   That comes from one of the quotes I mixed up last night about "the hooded woman".  If this is a reliable account, she's right there at the Twins.  If she's at the Twins I smell ambush and mass murder.  It makes little sense to be at the Twins if LSH's plan is to pull something at the physical wedding at Riverrun.  This assumes, of course, that she wants credit for whatever is to happen.   She could very easily leave ambushes and massacres to other factions of the group and boogie on up to the North.  I've got to figure this out.  

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Best as I could tell, the BWB under Lady Stoneheart’s management, is north of Hags Mire enroute to the Neck.  If this is true and it is only a day’s ride from Pennytree to this location it is only another day to the neck.   That comes from one of the quotes I mixed up last night about "the hooded woman".  If this is a reliable account, she's right there at the Twins.  If she's at the Twins I smell ambush and mass murder.  It makes little sense to be at the Twins if LSH's plan is to pull something at the physical wedding at Riverrun.  This assumes, of course, that she wants credit for whatever is to happen.   She could very easily leave ambushes and massacres to other factions of the group and boogie on up to the North.  I've got to figure this out.  

But if she's near Pennytree she's a long way from the Twins/Neck... Hag's Mire is sort of halfway between RR and the Twins, and the distance between RR and the Twins is roughly 500 mi, so it's not that far, but not that near either...

I think this is Martin being a sneaky little devil... she could be nearer the Twins, or she could be nearer RR.

 

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But if she's near Pennytree she's a long way from the Twins/Neck... Hag's Mire is sort of halfway between RR and the Twins, and the distance between RR and the Twins is roughly 500 mi, so it's not that far, but not that near either...

I think this is Martin being a sneaky little devil... she could be nearer the Twins, or she could be nearer RR.

 

I've been spending the entire time between posts looking for your timeline link.  Who knew it was on page 7?  So it's open and I'm researching all mentions of locations of the Hound and/or BWB and/or LSH.  We have tons of information about travel routes and we can get close, I'm sure.   It will just take some time.   Do you know of another timeline I can use for comparison?  You are such a valuable resource, @kissdbyfire--you have no idea how much I appreciate all your contributions. 

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I've been spending the entire time between posts looking for your timeline link.  Who knew it was on page 7?  So it's open and I'm researching all mentions of locations of the Hound and/or BWB and/or LSH.  We have tons of information about travel routes and we can get close, I'm sure.   It will just take some time.   Do you know of another timeline I can use for comparison?  You are such a valuable resource, @kissdbyfire--you have no idea how much I appreciate all your contributions. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=1

on phone now, will get back to this in a mo

[Alexis-something-Rose]

52 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I am not sure about this... Right before Brienne shows up we have Jaime's thoughts on posting scouts all around, so as to no not risk a surprise attack. 

I think the BwB is keeping Brienne in check w/ the threat on Pod and Hunt's lives. 

I don't disagree about the scouts. And I'm assuming the BwB members know about those, the same way they knew Jaime was returning to Riverrun, so their informants' network seems to have grown much larger. They knew where to find Jaime and they would know where the scouts are, where to let Brienne off on her own.

Besides this, I think there's the possibility that LSH was banking on Brienne's reaction to seeing Pod and Hunt's lives in jeoapardy like that. LSH did force Brienne's hand on this one. Pod and Hunt are completely blameless in this mess, no matter what LSH or the BwB says about them. 

Maybe LSH decided to roll the dice with Brienne by making the threat to Pod and Hunt's lives very real. If Brienne hadn't reacted as she had, that's no skin off LSH or the BwB's noses. We also don't know what the word Brienne said was, and we are assuming that Pod and Hunt are hostages to Brienne's good behavior, which is good and all, but I decided I wouldn't get attached to the idea, because you know, it's these books and Brienne might have ridden away with those two alive, but might come back to find them dangling from a tree.

42 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome to the conversation, Widow's Watch!  

I think you're probably right about the BWB not trusting Brienne with their location and secreted her to Pennytree.   That's part of why I believe "the Hound" Brienne mentions is probably Lem in his nifty helm down the road a bit.  I was shocked at the corruption of the BWB in AFFC, too.  Moreover, Thoros' confidences (if he hasn't made his feelings well known) to Brienne tell me something is beyond wrong and he or Brienne may be the key to overthrowing this current management.  

I bet you were horrified to see Hyle and Pod and Brienne hung.  We know Brienne was in transition between life and death here.  Could it be she actually died and Thoros kissed her?  Yes, I know that's wild speculation (you get used to it with me!) but Brienne is not a liar.   She's not wired for deception in the least.   If she really outright lied to Jamie at Pennytree, could it be that she is really changed?  

Thank you, Curled Finger.

I personally don't think Brienne was in between life and death or that Thoros gave her the kiss. But Brienne is not a liar, and yet she lied and she's not a deceiver, but she has to deceive Jaime in order to have him follow her. We know Arya is in Braavos and Sansa is in the Vale, we know she is told the Hound died by the Elder Brother. I don't think it means she has changed, though. Maybe she hopes to get through to LSH, though I think that ship sailed. It's not like Catelyn was the most reasonable person when she was alive (I'm not a Catelyn fan, so I am indeed biased), and if there's a trial by combat, maybe she will want to be his champion. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Maybe LSH decided to roll the dice with Brienne by making the threat to Pod and Hunt's lives very real. If Brienne hadn't reacted as she had, that's no skin off LSH or the BwB's noses. We also don't know what the word Brienne said was, a

Very good points, and I can mostly agree. As to the above, we do know what Brienne said, she said, "sword",. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very good points, and I can mostly agree. As to the above, we do know what Brienne said, she said, "sword",. 

Did she? I don't even remember this. I guess revisit of AFFC is in order.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Did she? I don't even remember this. I guess revisit of AFFC is in order.

It's not in AFfC, but Martin confirmed it a few yrs back at Miscon 2012:

"george confirmed that the word brienne screamed was “sword”; lady stoneheart gave brienne the choice of either swearing her sword to her or being hung, saying “sword or noose”, and as brienne was being hung she screamed “sword”