Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You know this crown thing will bug me until someone starts a topic about it.   I'm stuck with phone books too right now.   Jamie learns that Sybell Westerling forcibly pulls the crown from Jeyne's head at some point.   (I think...)  When Jamie happens upon our QOWs I assumed he took it with him.   I further assumed Robb's crown rolled off and Cat took it in her death grip at the Red Wedding.   Of course, I also thought she wanted Jeyne's crown from Jamie the 1st time I read it, too.  Hrm...

If you do find any support for any crown please let me know.   

Found it:

“Jaime turned to Lord Tytos. “My lord, let there be no misunderstanding here. Lord Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, Sandor Clegane, Brynden Tully, this woman Stoneheart … all these are outlaws and rebels, enemies to the king and all his leal subjects. If I should learn that you or yours are hiding them, protecting them, or assisting them in any way, I will not hesitate to send you your son’s head. I hope you understand that. Understand this as well: I am not Ryman Frey.”

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Wow you can really think ahead.   I've always thought the Riverlands were going to implode and the BWB would install their own people at Riverrun.  I don't know what they know, but they will have to get behind someone real quick...they don't have any food and divica, winter is coming. 

In this discussions I always think of the BwB as a little band...

If they are several hundreds, have the support of the smallfolk and a plan to conquer or kill a lot of people in RR and are lead by a tully then they are a major threat to the rulership of the riverlands.

And with a little luck they migh really pull it off. We know that the tyrell army is tied up and might even be defeated or defect to Aegon. This will make Aegon the focus of the Lannister army and those interesed in the IT. The BwB is only interested in the riverlands...

And suddenly, if LF and LSH might cross paths! If LF wants to use the vale to get the north he will have to deal with the twins and LSH will also not stop until she gets there...

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The crown w/ Jeyne that her adorable mother tries to take from her is Jeyne's own crown. She says Robb gave it to her. And when Jaime treats w/ the Freys (because of what they're doing to Edmure), he sees that the queen of whores w/ Ryman Frey has a copper and iron crown, and he takes it right before he tells Ryman to bugger off and tells his son Edwyn to take charge of the camp and "try not to be as stupid as your father" (paraphrasing). 

I think the BwB fell upon Ryman and his party while they were on their way back to the Twins, and that's how LSH comes upon Robb's crown. 

(sorry my italics have been abducted by aliens)

Robb's:

“Ser Ryman came stomping up the gallows steps in company with a straw-haired slattern as drunk as he was. Her gown laced up the front, but someone had undone the laces to the navel, so her breasts were spilling out. They were large and heavy, with big brown nipples. On her head a circlet of hammered bronze sat askew, graven with runes and ringed with small black swords. When she saw Jaime, she laughed. “Who in seven hells is this one?”
“The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard,” Jaime returned with cold courtesy. “I might ask the same of you, my lady.”
“Lady? I’m no lady. I’m the queen.”
“My sister will be surprised to hear that.”
“Lord Ryman crowned me his very self.” She gave a shake of her ample hips. “I’m the queen o’ whores.”
No, Jaime thought, my sweet sister holds that title too.”

<snip>

“I warned you about talking.” Jaime watched the man turn white. A sot, a fool, and a craven. Lord Walder had best outlive this one, or the Freys are done. “You are dismissed, ser.”
“Dismissed?”
“You heard me. Go away.”
“But . . . where should I go?”
“To hell or home, as you prefer. See that you are not in camp when the sun comes up. You may take your queen of whores, but not that crown of hers.” Jaime turned from Ser Ryman to his son. “Edwyn, I am giving you your father’s command. Try not to be so stupid as your sire.”

Jeyne's:

“The girl turned her head away. “It is nothing,” insisted her mother, a stern-faced woman in a gown of green velvet. A necklace of golden seashells looped about her long, thin neck. “She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me.”
“It was mine.” Jeyne sobbed. “You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him.”

 

Ok I get it how LSH could have procured the crown at Riverrun.  But where is Jeyne's crown?

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ok I get it how LSH could have procured the crown at Riverrun.  But where is Jeyne's crown?

I think either Jeyne or her mother took her crown? They're en route to CR... As to Robb's, I don't know how she got it. Could Tom of Sevens have smuggled it out of castle and sent it to her/BwB?

oh, and Ryman and his party must be all pushing daisies at this point. 

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Found it:

“Jaime turned to Lord Tytos. “My lord, let there be no misunderstanding here. Lord Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, Sandor Clegane, Brynden Tully, this woman Stoneheart … all these are outlaws and rebels, enemies to the king and all his leal subjects. If I should learn that you or yours are hiding them, protecting them, or assisting them in any way, I will not hesitate to send you your son’s head. I hope you understand that. Understand this as well: I am not Ryman Frey.”

I proofread my reply to you well after it was posted.  More than 1 mushbrain around here!  Thanks for bringing the correct and right quote out.  Thanks!

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I proofread my reply to you well after it was posted.  More than 1 mushbrain around here!  Thanks for bringing the correct and right quote out.  Thanks!

 

I think both are correct? I don't know anymore, it's well past my bedtime!

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think either Jeyne or her mother took her crown? They're en route to CR... As to Robb's, I don't know how she got it. Could Tom of Sevens have smuggled it out of castle and sent it to her/BwB?

oh, and Ryman and his party must be all pushing daisies at this point. 

Ok, Pennytree is very close to Riverrun.   We believe Brienne is with LSH in a cave near the QI or even a bit further west.  Jamie makes his bed under a half moon at Pennytree.  (I was looking for your timeline link when you popped up with the quotes)  The quotes you provided don't clearly state what happened to the crown the QOWs had.   Why send it back to the Twins?  Why not take it with him?  Why allow Jeyne to keep her crown, that we aren't sure she has?  I'm still confused here, sorry to be a pain.  

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think both are correct? I don't know anymore, it's well past my bedtime!

No dear, you were right and mine was way off.   I went back to find my quotes and realize I got 2 quotes mixed up.   Who will watch me if you go to bed?  What if I need a popsicle or a cookie?  

[Curled Finger]

22 minutes ago, divica said:

In this discussions I always think of the BwB as a little band...

If they are several hundreds, have the support of the smallfolk and a plan to conquer or kill a lot of people in RR and are lead by a tully then they are a major threat to the rulership of the riverlands.

And with a little luck they migh really pull it off. We know that the tyrell army is tied up and might even be defeated or defect to Aegon. This will make Aegon the focus of the Lannister army and those interesed in the IT. The BwB is only interested in the riverlands...

And suddenly, if LF and LSH might cross paths! If LF wants to use the vale to get the north he will have to deal with the twins and LSH will also not stop until she gets there...

Ah man I would LOVE LSH to run into frickin Little Finger.   

[Nevets]

Looks like you have moved on without me.  A few thoughts:

Crown: I think that the crown that LSH is holding is the one Ryman had.  I expect he didn't give it back to Jaime and Jaime probably didn't go looking for it.  We know that LSH killed Ryman, so I think she took the crown from him.

BwB:  It's hard to say what the status of the BwB is right now.  They came about to fight the Lions, Wolves, and other riff-raff in the Riverlands.  That fight is over.  As a practical matter, the war is over and the Wolves and Lions are either gone or going.  There are some Lannister garrisons at Harrenhal, Darry, etc., but they are mainly concerned about broken men and ordinary outlaws. The BwB really has no other purpose now other than revenge,and i think the region has other things to worry about.  I expect its membership has diminished since the end of fighting and the death of Beric.

Brienne:  I think she is lying to Jaime.  I think she either has a plan or hopes to devise one with Jaime's help, so I do not think she is deliberately leading him into a trap.  Telling a simple falsehood like this should be relatively easy, even for Brienne.  It is just to get him away from the camp.

Gotta run, more later

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The crown w/ Jeyne that her adorable mother tries to take from her is Jeyne's own crown. She says Robb gave it to her. And when Jaime treats w/ the Freys (because of what they're doing to Edmure), he sees that the queen of whores w/ Ryman Frey has a copper and iron crown, and he takes it right before he tells Ryman to bugger off and tells his son Edwyn to take charge of the camp and "try not to be as stupid as your father" (paraphrasing). 

I think the BwB fell upon Ryman and his party while they were on their way back to the Twins, and that's how LSH comes upon Robb's crown. 

(sorry my italics have been abducted by aliens)

Robb's:

“Ser Ryman came stomping up the gallows steps in company with a straw-haired slattern as drunk as he was. Her gown laced up the front, but someone had undone the laces to the navel, so her breasts were spilling out. They were large and heavy, with big brown nipples. On her head a circlet of hammered bronze sat askew, graven with runes and ringed with small black swords. When she saw Jaime, she laughed. “Who in seven hells is this one?”
“The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard,” Jaime returned with cold courtesy. “I might ask the same of you, my lady.”
“Lady? I’m no lady. I’m the queen.”
“My sister will be surprised to hear that.”
“Lord Ryman crowned me his very self.” She gave a shake of her ample hips. “I’m the queen o’ whores.”
No, Jaime thought, my sweet sister holds that title too.”

<snip>

“I warned you about talking.” Jaime watched the man turn white. A sot, a fool, and a craven. Lord Walder had best outlive this one, or the Freys are done. “You are dismissed, ser.”
“Dismissed?”
“You heard me. Go away.”
“But . . . where should I go?”
“To hell or home, as you prefer. See that you are not in camp when the sun comes up. You may take your queen of whores, but not that crown of hers.” Jaime turned from Ser Ryman to his son. “Edwyn, I am giving you your father’s command. Try not to be so stupid as your sire.”

Jeyne's:

“The girl turned her head away. “It is nothing,” insisted her mother, a stern-faced woman in a gown of green velvet. A necklace of golden seashells looped about her long, thin neck. “She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me.”
“It was mine.” Jeyne sobbed. “You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him.”

 

'd by Kissdbyfire (only two and a half hours ago).

Thanks for finding the quotes. I just got home and saw your update.

Yeah, we don't know for sure (yet) how LSH got Robb's crown, but most likely the BWB underground ferried it to her. I am also going to assume that Ryman never handed it over, or it was taken from him by someone in the BWB circle.

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Looks like you have moved on without me.  A few thoughts:

Crown: I think that the crown that LSH is holding is the one Ryman had.  I expect he didn't give it back to Jaime and Jaime probably didn't go looking for it.  We know that LSH killed Ryman, so I think she took the crown from him.

BwB:  It's hard to say what the status of the BwB is right now.  They came about to fight the Lions, Wolves, and other riff-raff in the Riverlands.  That fight is over.  As a practical matter, the war is over and the Wolves and Lions are either gone or going.  There are some Lannister garrisons at Harrenhal, Darry, etc., but they are mainly concerned about broken men and ordinary outlaws. The BwB really has no other purpose now other than revenge,and i think the region has other things to worry about.  I expect its membership has diminished since the end of fighting and the death of Beric.

Brienne:  I think she is lying to Jaime.  I think she either has a plan or hopes to devise one with Jaime's help, so I do not think she is deliberately leading him into a trap.  Telling a simple falsehood like this should be relatively easy, even for Brienne.  It is just to get him away from the camp.

Gotta run, more later

Man I gotta be faster to catch you!  That's good Nevets.   At least I understand how Jamie's crown ended up with LSH.  I still don't know why a Frey would take Robb's crown back to the Twins, though.   Maybe it was a trophy.   

I'm making peace with Brienne's possible untruth.   Lots and lots of compelling reasons for this to happen and she may have been fed a story.  

I'm not sure where the BWB is going, too.   I like them being the underground police, but there is little for them to do right there.   The Riverlands really can't have much to offer along the lines of resources the closer winter comes.   But I think they may be with us elsewhere.   Maybe not as a united force, but something in many places.   I liken this group to the conscience of the politics.  Someone has to look out for the little people.   

We sort of burned up the wires today.   I've never participated in a topic that moved so fast.  Couldn't blink there for a while.   But it's good to know that I'm not alone in my interest in the Riverlands.   Looking forward to your thoughts as always.  

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

'd by Kissdbyfire (only two and a half hours ago).

Thanks for finding the quotes. I just got home and saw your update.

Yeah, we don't know for sure (yet) how LSH got Robb's crown, but most likely the BWB underground ferried it to her. I am also going to assume that Ryman never handed it over, or it was taken from him by someone in the BWB circle.

Right.   But do we know for sure he (Ryman) had it?  Jamie told him not to take the crown.   Get some rest Leech.   What an amazing discussion!  

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Man I gotta be faster to catch you!  That's good Nevets.   At least I understand how Jamie's crown ended up with LSH.  I still don't know why a Frey would take Robb's crown back to the Twins, though.   Maybe it was a trophy.   

Ryman went from the Twins to the siege at Riverrun. I don't think there were any stops inbetween, or back and forth, but I could be wrong. It seems that, yes, Ryman kept the crown from the Red Wedding as a trophy. The Freys have "issues" with crowns. Old Lord Walder dressed Jinglebell up in a jingly crown to mock Robb when Robb showed up to ask forgiveness at the Twins. Ryman is a sloppy drunk that is yet another fool.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah you were off to such a strong start.  We've been wondering what you could possibly do that is more fun than talking with us.   Ah c'mon, we know lurking is fun.   I can't even keep up with all the great comments and I'm supposed to be hosting this!  We are happy to have what you have to offer.  

Ahha!  The hold Brienne hostage card!  Didn't see that coming at all, but I couldn't agree more with all the rest of your update.   That's good...really good--hrm, now I have to figure out what mission.   Poor Brienne.  

What say ye about the crowns?  

Haha! Honestly I have nothing I would rather be doing than participating in the discussion. 

Jaime's mission. I just have no idea. The only thing I can think is to infiltrate the wedding? She doesn't seem to need any help killing Frey's otherwise & surely Brienne told her Arya is Jeyne. I'm not wholly positive why she doesn't just hang Brienne & capture Jaime on her own. (Not that I want her to) I guess maybe she knows Jaime is going to be hard to get away from his army. 

Yes Poor Brienne. We can't count her out though. Brienne is strong & Jaime is quick witted. They may be able to work their way out of this yet. Hopefully with Pod alive as well. 

I'm going to reread the passage about the crown & come back to it because I'm still a little confused by the quotes provided. 

9 hours ago, divica said:

While we know jamie cares for brienne why would LSH believe in it?

In adition she has to believe Jamie is connected to the red weding. Besides roose saying "Jaime sends his regards" she has to know that jamie was brought to roose. It would make perfect sense that it was Jamie that turned roose against robb with some promises.

With the exception of giving a VS (which is an insult to house stark) to brienne and sending her to look for sansa/arya (which LSH can know if it was with good intentios or to capture them) what has Jamie done that might make LSH he is a different man?

I don't know, I'm just throwing things out there. Maybe Brienne convinced her some how? 

I'm not positive about LSH believing Jaime is connected to the RW directly. I doubt she heard "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" especially by whispery Roose. We don't really know what info has reached her so she may not even know Jaime was taken to Roose. Also I don't know she is in the right frame of mind to even deduce that. She is hell-bent on vengeance & thinks Jaime broke his oath to her. 

I don't think LSH thinks Jaime is a different man but she believes Brienne is in cahoots with Jaime in breaking their oath to Cat so it stands to reason she may believe they are friends & care for each other. 

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ok, Pennytree is very close to Riverrun.   We believe Brienne is with LSH in a cave near the QI or even a bit further west.  Jamie makes his bed under a half moon at Pennytree.  (I was looking for your timeline link when you popped up with the quotes)  The quotes you provided don't clearly state what happened to the crown the QOWs had.   Why send it back to the Twins?  Why not take it with him?  Why allow Jeyne to keep her crown, that we aren't sure she has?  I'm still confused here, sorry to be a pain.  

No, the text doesn't give us a definitive answer. I see two possibilities: either Ryman Frey disobeyed Jaime and took the crown w/ him when he took off, or someone smuggled it out of RR and it made its way to LSH. I have always thought of the BwB as a much larger group than just its "active members". I think it's very likely that most of the small folk in the Riverlands support the BwB in one way or another. Passing on information and supplies, that sort of thing. If this assumption is correct, it wouldn't be difficult for someone going into the castle - say a tradesman or something like that - to smuggle it out and deliver it to someone in the BwB. 

As to Jeyne's crown, I think it's unlikely she still has it. I think her mother does, and her mother is on her way back to the westerlands w/ the rest of her remaining family.

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Right.   But do we know for sure he (Ryman) had it?  Jamie told him not to take the crown.   Get some rest Leech.   What an amazing discussion!  

It's interesting that LSH has the crown of the Kings of Winter but it's a replica of the real thing.  I think the true crown will be found the in crypts of Winterfell, to go with Black Crow's interpretation of the Musgrave Ritual, as it applies to the Starks.  

https://letterpile.com/books/Plot-Summary-of-the-Adventure-of-the-Musgrave-Ritual

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Her son's crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb's head.

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

I doubt Lord Hoster's smith knew what runes were incised on the crown and runes imply magic of some kind.

Edit: So to some speculation with LSH's contemplation of the crown and why the company is moving north. Potentially to retrieve the true crown from the crypts which may be the purpose that LSH was resurrected in the first place.  Second to crown whom with the real thing?  I doubt she has gotten over her hatred of Jon Snow.  Perhaps she intends to crown herself -- another version of the corpse queen?

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It's interesting that LSH has the crown of the Kings of Winter but it's a replica of the real thing.  I think the true crown will be found the in crypts of Winterfell, to go with Black Crow's interpretation of the Musgrave Ritual, as it applies to the Starks.  

https://letterpile.com/books/Plot-Summary-of-the-Adventure-of-the-Musgrave-Ritual

I doubt Lord Hoster's smith knew what runes were incised on the crown and runes imply magic of some kind.

Edit: So to some speculation with LSH's contemplation of the crown and why the company is moving north. Potentially to retrieve the true crown from the crypts which may be the purpose that LSH was resurrected in the first place.  Second to crown whom with the real thing?  I doubt she has gotten over her hatred of Jon Snow.  Perhaps she intends to crown herself -- another version of the corpse queen?

 

Interesting. I agree she probably has not gotten over her hatred of Jon Snow but it would be some redemption if she had - for Cat & UnCat. Maybe she intends to crown one of her daughters? I can't see her crowning herself - at least I hope not. Is there anything you can think of she may need Jaime for in this potential crowning? 

It was Robb's wish to name Jon his heir so maybe it's not out of the realm of possibility that she intends to crown Jon? Of course if she knows or finds out Arya, Bran, or Rickon are alive it removes the need Robb had to name Jon his heir. Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion although I don't know what the rules are for nullifying an unconsumated marriage when your husband is wanted by the crown & has went into hiding. 

[LynnS]

54 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Interesting. I agree she probably has not gotten over her hatred of Jon Snow but it would be some redemption if she had - for Cat & UnCat. Maybe she intends to crown one of her daughters? I can't see her crowning herself - at least I hope not. Is there anything you can think of she may need Jaime for in this potential crowning? 

It was Robb's wish to name Jon his heir so maybe it's not out of the realm of possibility that she intends to crown Jon? Of course if she knows or finds out Arya, Bran, or Rickon are alive it removes the need Robb had to name Jon his heir. Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion although I don't know what the rules are for nullifying an unconsumated marriage when your husband is wanted by the crown & has went into hiding. 

Like Curled Finger, I don't believe there is any humanity left in her.  The question comes down to why she was animated or what power directed Beric to do so.

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha! Honestly I have nothing I would rather be doing than participating in the discussion. 

Jaime's mission. I just have no idea. The only thing I can think is to infiltrate the wedding? She doesn't seem to need any help killing Frey's otherwise & surely Brienne told her Arya is Jeyne. I'm not wholly positive why she doesn't just hang Brienne & capture Jaime on her own. (Not that I want her to) I guess maybe she knows Jaime is going to be hard to get away from his army. 

Yes Poor Brienne. We can't count her out though. Brienne is strong & Jaime is quick witted. They may be able to work their way out of this yet. Hopefully with Pod alive as well. 

I'm going to reread the passage about the crown & come back to it because I'm still a little confused by the quotes provided. 

I don't know, I'm just throwing things out there. Maybe Brienne convinced her some how? 

I'm not positive about LSH believing Jaime is connected to the RW directly. I doubt she heard "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" especially by whispery Roose. We don't really know what info has reached her so she may not even know Jaime was taken to Roose. Also I don't know she is in the right frame of mind to even deduce that. She is hell-bent on vengeance & thinks Jaime broke his oath to her. 

I don't think LSH thinks Jaime is a different man but she believes Brienne is in cahoots with Jaime in breaking their oath to Cat so it stands to reason she may believe they are friends & care for each other. 

I knew you had plenty to add!  I have a bad habit of replying out of order, so pardon the psychosis of my replies, but I got to get it out while it's fresh in my mind...

I was recently reminded of Bran's statement about Hodor to Maester Luwin back in AGOT.  Bran says he could ride on Hodor's shoulders and together they could be a knight.   We know this is entirely possible despite Luwin's rational protestations that the arms and the legs and head have to work as 1 (It's a great quote and I'm not doing it justice).  Jamie and Brienne are exactly like this.   Jamie is quick witted and Brienne is strong.   They are both skilled and talented fighters.   Like Bran, Jamie has to "fight" at a marked disadvantage whereas Brienne can pull off a fight, but not a plan necessarily.   I'm wondering now if this isn't one of the points of this plot--Jamie has to learn to work through Brienne?

Infiltrating the wedding is the likely mission Jamie needs to fulfill for LSH.  My only qualm here is LSH has got to want old Walder very badly.   Will he attend the wedding?   If he does I think we can wrap it up as Jamie's mission...if not we have to look a bit further down the road.   She is rumored to be right near the Twins now.   This has me wondering if LSH will have old Walder's head removed and placed upon a pig's body?   This is too much fun to ponder, I digress.  

What is to come of all of this?   LSH's demise?  Jamie's?   Brienne's?   I see more for our intrepid heroic companions, but not everyone does.   Ultimately I think this pit stop with LSH is just a stop, not the end by a long shot.   

You look like you're having fun here.   That's as it should be, carry on, Lady!