Brienne's Honor in Pennytree

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Seams said:

I can't think why or how Lady Stoneheart would send Jaime on a mission of any kind. In anticipating future plot developments, I would try to mine the foreshadowing GRRM has already laid out for us.

1) The trial-by-combat at the Eyrie. Lysa (on the weirwood throne) forced a Lannister to prove his innocence by killing a foe in combat. The foe was killed when the toppled stone statue of Alyssa Arryn pins him to the ground. Seems pretty clear that the stone woman (statue) represented Lady Stoneheart. (The leader of the BwB would also sit on a throne made of roots in their underground lair.) The man who died, Ser Vardis Egen, was described as, "ever my lord husband's good right hand." Jaime has no right hand. Does that mean that Ser Vardis symbolized his missing right hand? His golden replacement hand?

Because of this foreshadowing, one strong possible scenario is that Jaime will be forced into a trial-by-combat to account for his crimes. The BwB did this to The Hound. As Curled Finger points out, Jaime has been itchin' for a fight with The Hound. Maybe we will see that fight occur at the direction of LSH. (Although I can't think of a reason for The Hound to return to the BwB, unless it is to retrieve the tournament winnings they took from him.)

Who would play the role of Bronn in a new trial by combat? Brienne? The Hound? Or is that Jaime's role? GRRM never seems to give straight equivalents when he uses foreshadowing or symbolism, so we may see a blended or opposite character in each role.

2) The Hand's Tourney. I think there was a lot of foreshadowing in the Hand's Tourney that may help to narrow our guesses about these converging story arcs. The match-ups, victories and defeats in tournaments are symbolic of future plot developments in ASOIAF.

The Hound is eventually declared the overall winner of the tournament when he steps in to defend Ser Loras from Ser Gregor's violence after the semi-final joust. Ser Loras had defeated Ser Gregor and The Hound had defeated Jaime Lannister in the semi-finals.

The other victors are a commoner named Anguy (from the Dornish Marches) in the archery and Thoros of Myr in the melee. Anguy and Thoros both join the BwB. They both seem to be part of the faction that splits off from the BwB after Ser Beric gives way to Lady Stoneheart.

The symbolism of Jaime's missing hand and the Hand's Tourney could be indicative of who the upcoming events with the BwB.

3) Hoster the Hostage. Hoster has the same name as Catelyn Tully's father. Catelyn slept in her father's ornately-carved bed symbolizing a river. Is this Blackwood boy a symbolic rebirth of Lord Hoster Tully? What does it mean that he is Jaime's hostage?

Jaime's new, bookish traveling companion seems like a better companion for Tyrion except he is seven feet tall and, as @TheThreeEyedCow points out, Jaime has a new interest in a book after returning from captivity and having his arm maimed.

There may be something to the earlier speculation that Catelyn is putting herself at the head of Robb's would-be kingdom, even if her purpose in doing so is to command resources for revenge, not to rule. Her last words asked that her killer not cut her hair, which I believe is symbolic of her desire to defend her and Ned's heirs. Robb's crown was made at Riverrun, and Catelyn introduced him to the tomb of Tristifer, who was the King of the Rivers and the Hills. Maybe this is the realm Catelyn sees herself commanding and putting to work to either rescue or avenge her children.

4) Cersei's champion. Cersei is imprisoned by the High Sparrow, whose sparrows are allied in some ways with the BwB. Cersei begs Jaime to come back to King's Landing to defend her in a Trial by Combat. Jaime burns her letter. Instead, it appears that she will be defended by Ser Robert Strong, the reborn, headless (?) Gregor Clegane. So Jaime and Ser Robert Strong are being compared, right? They were both candidates for Cersei's champion, so they might be compared on that basis.

But what if we are supposed to compare Cersei and Jaime, who are supposed to be nearly identical twins except that they are of different genders? Perhaps Jaime's three-week-absence (thank you for the timeline work, everyone) is supposed to be like Cersei's imprisonment in the dungeon of Baelor's Sept. Maybe he is being held in a "dungeon" and deprived of sleep in an attempt to get him to confess his sins. If so, he might soon need a champion. Who would be comparable to Ser Robert Strong without a head? How about The Hound without a helmet?

5) Vargo Hoat. Gregor Clegane keeps reappearing in a lot of the events that I think could foreshadow Jaime and/or Brienne's future. After Vargo Hoat's Brave Companions chopped off Jaime's arm, Ser Gregor inflicted a lengthy torture on Hoat as payback from Tywin Lannister. Could the torture of Hoat foreshadow the fate of Jaime, if the BwB and Lady Stoneheart get a hold of him? Would LSH direct her followers to chop off Jaime's other arm? He already confessed to pushing Bran off the wall at Winterfell. Would she like to see Jaime lose his legs?

Jaime rescued Brienne from Vargo Hoat's bear pit where she had been forced to defend herself with a blunt blade instead of a real sword. Is it now her turn to rescue him?

It's interesting to speculate about what LSH might do next, or how Jaime might figure into her plans. To me, the best speculation has to tie into things we already know about the characters and the combinations of events the author has laid out in earlier scenes.

Why oh why Seams don't you give classes in the way you tease things out of this story?  You know I'm as thick as a castle wall when it comes to symbolism and foreshadowing.  Still you put forth this (seemingly) easy correlation of past to present.  

You see a trial by combat for our Golden Boy.  But no mission.   We have 3 weeks where nothing is heard or seen of Jamie.  It sure doesn't look like there is a mission, does it? Revenge is the likely motivation for our LSH, agreed.  But to what avail?  What do you see happening if this trial by combat is won or even lost?  I suppose if Brienne is Jamie's champion and she lost they would both be killed.  But then what?  A culling of POVs and heroes, perhaps even a VS sword.  Oh boy. 

Eventually whatever comes immediately after Jamie and Brienne get to where they're headed, some direction has to become apparent for the ghost of Catelyn Tully.  If our heroes die, what next?  Should our heroes triumph, what next?   Does she move on or just carry out Frey hits?  I think it's likely Sandor will reappear somewhere in LSH's story.  I think he may just be tracking Brienne because she's looking for Sansa.   I know it's unpopular, but I don't see a love affair between he and Sansa, but I know he cares for both Stark girls.   He offered to take Sansa to Winterfell and become a house knight for the Starks.  Apart from any affection he may have toward the girls, I think he is looking for a place to live and work that doesn't require him to look over his shoulders for the remainder.  

Reminding us of the Hand's Tourney where so many of our moving parts in the Riverlands triumphed was beyond cool.   I can't even find the words to describe how cool it was to read that.  Anguy and Thoros and of course, our Hound.  I'm not sure how to connect that, but surely it means something.  Do you think it impacts anything that Jamie and Brienne are a team? 

I'm not sure I completely get the parts about Cersei and Vargo (can't you just look a little surprised?)...if you have a moment could you help me get a better grasp on those parts? The parts I do get are astonishing, so I really want to understand everything.    

[LynnS]

On 12/31/2017 at 9:27 PM, Seams said:

I think @LynnS is right that there is a hidden message in Brienne touching the hilt of the sword that came from Jaime, just after confirming that she has been bitten on her cheek. But I'm not sure what the hidden message might be! The most relevant quote shared by LynnS is probably this one:

"I insist. A true knight must defend the gentler sex."

She touched her sword hilt. "This will defend me, ser." 

"A sword is only as good as the man who wields it."

I think it will come to the vows that were made:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX

"Nor I. There was a time that I would have given my right hand to wield a sword like that. Now it appears I have, so the blade is wasted on me. Take it." Before she could think to refuse, he went on. "A sword so fine must bear a name. It would please me if you would call this one Oathkeeper. One more thing. The blade comes with a price."

Her face darkened. "I told you, I will never serve . . ."

". . . such foul creatures as us. Yes, I recall. Hear me out, Brienne. Both of us swore oaths concerning Sansa Stark. Cersei means to see that the girl is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground . . ."

Brienne's homely face twisted in fury. "If you believe that I would harm my lady's daughter for a sword, you—"

"Just listen," he snapped, angered by her assumption. "I want you to find Sansa first, and get her somewhere safe. How else are the two of us going to make good our stupid vows to your precious dead Lady Catelyn?

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Jaime would not do that. He was sincere. He gave me the sword, and called it Oathkeeper. Anyway, it made no matter. She had promised Lady Catelyn that she would bring back her daughters, and no promise was as solemn as one sworn to the dead. The younger girl was long dead, Jaime claimed; the Arya the Lannisters sent north to marry Roose Bolton's bastard was a fraud. That left only Sansa. Brienne had to find her.

Brienne is in a bit of a double bind because she not only made vows to the dead; she is responsible for Jaime's vows and his honor.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Kneeling between the bed and wall, she held the blade and said a silent prayer to the Crone, whose golden lamp showed men the way through life. Lead me, she prayed, light the way before me, show me the path that leads to Sansa. She had failed Renly, had failed Lady Catelyn. She must not fail Jaime. He trusted me with his sword. He trusted me with his honor.

Neither have fulfilled their vows to find and return Arya and Sansa; but Jaime has broken his vows not to take up arms against the Tully's.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime I

They'd all done a deal of vowing back in that cell, Jaime most of all. That was Lady Catelyn's price for loosing him. She had laid the point of the big wench's sword against his heart and said, "Swear that you will never again take up arms against Stark nor Tully. Swear that you will compel your brother to honor his pledge to return my daughters safe and unharmed. Swear on your honor as a knight, on your honor as a Lannister, on your honor as a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. Swear it by your sister's life, and your father's, and your son's, by the old gods and the new, and I'll send you back to your sister. Refuse, and I will have your blood." He remembered the prick of the steel through his rags as she twisted the point of the sword.

So I think that there will be a trial by combat to answer for Jaime's broken vows.  I expect Brienne will prevail and there will be more vows.  LSH may even confiscate Jaime's army for her own purposes.

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it will come to the vows that were made:

 

Brienne is in a bit of a double bind because she not only made vows to the dead; she is responsible for Jaime's vows and his honor.

Neither have fulfilled their vows to find and return Arya and Sansa; but Jaime has broken his vows not to take up arms against the Tully's.

So I think that there will be a trial by combat to answer for Jaime's broken vows.  I expect Brienne will prevail and there will be more vows.  LSH may even confiscate Jaime's army for her own purposes.

That's really a good reminder of how things have come down.   Poor Brienne is left holding the bag.  I remember Jamie threatening Edmure, but it was just a threat.  Throughout the 4 chapters I read yesterday and today Jamie thinks repeatedly of his vow not to take up arms against the Tullys and Starks.  What did I miss? 

My terrible memory aside, do you think Jamie has really forsaken his vows?  The scene where he gives Brienne her marching orders and equipment screamed Oathkeeper to me.  He reminds Brienne of his duty toward Cersei, but admonishes her to keep the vow to Catelyn.   That reads like he forsakes this vow to Cersei to me.   

A few weeks back there was a topic about how foolish or not Cat was to free Jamie.  She appeared to be very foolish, but we read Jamie's POV and know he had every intention of keeping his part of the deal.  I'm getting the feeling that all this conflict is leading up to Jamie's meet and greet with LSH.   Just wish I could figure out what happens after that.   As always, any light you can shine on me is appreciated!    Thanks LynnS. 

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Just wish I could figure out what happens after that.   As always, any light you can shine on me is appreciated!    Thanks LynnS. 

My wild guess is that he will be judged for his seige of Riverrun which is taking up arms against the Tully's.  I think a trial by combat with a twist will ensue in that Brienne will champion LSH and the Hound will champion Jaime.  A contest that Brienne will win leaving Jaime's life forfeit.  He will have to abandon Cersei, pledge allegience to LSH and turn over his army to LSH.   Then they march on Winterfell.

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My wild guess is that he will be judged for his seige of Riverrun which is taking up arms against the Tully's.  I think a trial by combat with a twist will ensue in that Brienne will champion LSH and the Hound will champion Jaime.  A contest that Brienne will win leaving Jaime's life forfeit.  He will have to abandon Cersei, pledge allegience to LSH and turn over his army to LSH.   Then they march on Winterfell.

That's a heck of a wild guess!  I have pondered this thousands of times and it never once occurred to me that Brienne would face the Hound or that she would be anyone but Jamie's champion.  (We are talking about the real Hound, right?)  Holy cow--that's just the sort of twisted thing GRRM would do to us.   

Right or wrong here LynnS, it's quite a scenario.   I thank you for clarifying the arms against the Tullys.    I suppose there is room for debate, but technically I think you have a winner here. Well done, Lady.  

[Nevets]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's a heck of a wild guess!  I have pondered this thousands of times and it never once occurred to me that Brienne would face the Hound or that she would be anyone but Jamie's champion.  (We are talking about the real Hound, right?)  Holy cow--that's just the sort of twisted thing GRRM would do to us.   

Right or wrong here LynnS, it's quite a scenario.   I thank you for clarifying the arms against the Tullys.    I suppose there is room for debate, but technically I think you have a winner here. Well done, Lady.  

I have long considered the possibility of Brienne being forced to fight for LSH, most likely against Jaime himself (I doubt he could find a champion).  In that event, Jaime would almost certainly let her win.  But I would have expected any such event to have happened by now. Even if we throw out the timeline (I don't trust it), from what Kevan says it's clear he has been gone for at least a couple weeks already.  And if he's dead, I would expect his body to show up quite quickly.  Not much point in killing him, and hiding the fact.  Plus, word would get out quickly.

I cannot imagine any scenario where Sandor Clegane would show up.  It's quite clear that he has put his past behind him.  "The Hound is dead. ...  Sandor Clegane is at rest." the Elder Brother tells Brienne.  A threat to Sansa or Arya might get him moving, but I can't think of anything else that would.

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My wild guess is that he will be judged for his seige of Riverrun which is taking up arms against the Tully's.  I think a trial by combat with a twist will ensue in that Brienne will champion LSH and the Hound will champion Jaime.  A contest that Brienne will win leaving Jaime's life forfeit.  He will have to abandon Cersei, pledge allegience to LSH and turn over his army to LSH.   Then they march on Winterfell.

Not very likely.  I can imagine Jaime abandoning Cersei, maybe even swearing allegiance to BwB (at a stretch), but the likelihood of Jaime's army following LSH is slightly less than the chances of TWOW coming out before Easter.

[divica]

As we were talking about the objectives of the BwB a while ago I was watching some theory vídeos and there were a few interesting things.

If the darrys are still targaryen supporters and varys is using them since AGoT then what if the BwB is a big varys plan to gain the support of the smallfolk in the riverlands?

We know that the darrys were involved in the BwB since the beguining even though ned ordered them to not interfere. Then the BwB is a very imaginative idea based in the aventures of arthur dayne. And varys was in the small council around that time, so he knew how effective the kingswood brotherwood was.

Then we have lemoncloak that somehow appeared and might be another targaryen supporter and is in a leading position. 

So we have a group of individuals that is unifying the smallfolk against their current king and might be killing several lords in the riverlands which is led by a hated house. How brillant would it be to have the exileds westerosi lords of the golden company marry the widows of these lords or take the empty houses and then put some Aegon supporter well like by the smallfolk as lord of the riverlands?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

That's a heck of a wild guess!  I have pondered this thousands of times and it never once occurred to me that Brienne would face the Hound or that she would be anyone but Jamie's champion.  (We are talking about the real Hound, right?)  Holy cow--that's just the sort of twisted thing GRRM would do to us.   

Right or wrong here LynnS, it's quite a scenario.   I thank you for clarifying the arms against the Tullys.    I suppose there is room for debate, but technically I think you have a winner here. Well done, Lady.  

Not Sandor, no.  But Lem the fake Hound.  I think Sandor will be at the Quiet Isle for time.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

It's interesting to speculate about what LSH might do next, or how Jaime might figure into her plans. To me, the best speculation has to tie into things we already know about the characters and the combinations of events the author has laid out in earlier scenes.

I'll add one more to your list.  This s what LSH tells Brienne, she want proof of her faith:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VIII

Am I dreaming still? Brienne wondered. Is this another nightmare born from Biter's teeth? "I never betrayed her. Tell her that. I swear it by the Seven. I swear it by my sword."

The thing that had been Catelyn Stark took hold of her throat again, fingers pinching at the ghastly long slash in her neck, and choked out more sounds. "Words are wind, she says," the northman told Brienne. "She says that you must prove your faith." 

"How?" asked Brienne.

"With your sword. Oathkeeper, you call it? Then keep your oath to her, milady says."

"What does she want of me?

"She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister.

Jaime. The name was a knife, twisting in her belly. "Lady Catelyn, I . . . you do not understand, Jaime . . . he saved me from being raped when the Bloody Mummers took us, and later he came back for me, he leapt into the bear pit empty-handed . . . I swear to you, he is not the man he was. He sent me after Sansa to keep her safe, he could not have had a part in the Red Wedding."

Lady Catelyn's fingers dug deep into her throat, and the words came rattling out, choked and broken, a stream as cold as ice. The northman said, "She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose.

Not long ago she was show the path of the faithful by Septon Meribald:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"The silent sisters never speak," said Podrick. "I heard they don't have any tongues."

Septon Meribald smiled. "Mothers have been cowing their daughters with that tale since I was your age. There was no truth to it then and there is none now. A vow of silence is an act of contrition, a sacrifice by which we prove our devotion to the Seven Above. For a mute to take a vow of silence would be akin to a legless man giving up the dance." He led his donkey down the slope, beckoning them to follow. "If you would sleep beneath a roof tonight, you must climb off your horses and cross the mud with me. The path of faith, we call it. Only the faithful may cross safely. The wicked are swallowed by the quicksands, or drowned when the tide comes rushing in. None of you are wicked, I hope? Even so, I would be careful where I set my feet. Walk only where I walk, and you shall reach the other side."

I think she will take Jaime to the Quiet Isle.

[kissdbyfire]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It's ready when you are! 

I saw that, well done! There are so many great and intriguing posts I want to reply to, but it will have to wait until I come back from work... Probably by then the thread will be 20+ pages long!

 

[Lady Dacey]

Still lurking here... it's amazing to read you guys! 

@LynnS I'm with @Curled Finger, Jaime hasn't broken his vows. At least he believes he hasn't - those vows to Catelyn were certainly very important to him and he did all he could to keep them. Let's take a look: 

Quote

AFFC, Jaime VII 

"Ask Edmure how chivalrous I am, thought Jaime. Ask him about the trebuchet. Somehow he did not think the maesters were like to confuse him with Prince Aemon the Dragonknight when they wrote their histories. Still, he felt curiously content. The war was all but won. Dragonstone had fallen and Storm's End would soon enough, he could not doubt, and Stannis was welcome to the Wall. The northmen would love him no more than the storm lords had. If Roose Bolton did not destroy him, winter would. 

And he had done his own part here at Riverrun without actually ever taking up arms against the Starks or Tullys."

Jaime holds the vows he made to Catelyn above the others. Jaime is pragmatic, he sees the world as it is, not as he's learned it should be or how he'd like it to be (that's our lady Brienne!). He knows very well one can't keep as many vows as he's made, he knows it's impossible to keep one oath without forfeiting others at some point. And he chooses. Jaime is choosing honor. He is choosing the one vow it would be easiest to invalidate (it was made at sword point!) because it's the vow that made possible for him to have some honor! It's the vow he made when his life turned upside down, when he was freed from captivity to be his own man for the first time. It's the vow he made together with Brienne... it's precious for him for many reasons. He is content that he hasn't broken it.

UnCat may believe he's broken his vows, but I'm of the opinion that so far he hasn't, and he won't. 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

UnCat may believe he's broken his vows, but I'm of the opinion that so far he hasn't, and he won't

That's the key qualifier.  Jaime thinks that laying seige to Riverrun isn't taking up arms if here is no violence or personal violence.  I would argue that this is too literal an interpretation.  He's walking a fine line because laying seige is taking up arms or surrounding your opponent with arms. A threat of violence is still an assault and I don't think LSH will be concerned about the finer points. 

[Lady Dacey]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's the key qualifier.  Jaime thinks that laying seige to Riverrun isn't taking up arms if here is no violence or personal violence.  I would argue that this is too literal an interpretation.  He's walking a fine line because laying seige is taking up arms or surrounding your opponent with arms. A threat of violence is still an assault and I don't think LSH will be concerned about the finer points. 

He didn't lay the siege though, he went there to break the siege  

still, I'm with you that stoneheart is beyond reasoning with and has already found Jaime to be guilty. If not for the siege, she certainly has a reason of her own. Simply not having had girls back yet might be enough actually I guess. 

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

He didn't lay the siege though, he went there to break the siege  

still, I'm with you that stoneheart is beyond reasoning with and has already found Jaime to be guilty. If not for the siege, she certainly has a reason of her own. Simply not having had girls back yet might be enough actually I guess. 

Jaime is in command and that makes him responsible for the siege whether he arrived sooner or later.  His vow to the King takes precedence over his vow to LSH and he contemplates breaking it for that reason.

[HexMachina]

I think there is a good reason Tom o Sevens was in the tent for the trebuchet comment. Regardless of whether we the reader believe the siege is Jaime breaking his vows, or whether we believe his threat was sincere, Tom o Sevens heard it, and can report it back to the Brotherhood

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

I have long considered the possibility of Brienne being forced to fight for LSH, most likely against Jaime himself (I doubt he could find a champion).  In that event, Jaime would almost certainly let her win.  But I would have expected any such event to have happened by now. Even if we throw out the timeline (I don't trust it), from what Kevan says it's clear he has been gone for at least a couple weeks already.  And if he's dead, I would expect his body to show up quite quickly.  Not much point in killing him, and hiding the fact.  Plus, word would get out quickly.

I cannot imagine any scenario where Sandor Clegane would show up.  It's quite clear that he has put his past behind him.  "The Hound is dead. ...  Sandor Clegane is at rest." the Elder Brother tells Brienne.  A threat to Sansa or Arya might get him moving, but I can't think of anything else that would.

Not very likely.  I can imagine Jaime abandoning Cersei, maybe even swearing allegiance to BwB (at a stretch), but the likelihood of Jaime's army following LSH is slightly less than the chances of TWOW coming out before Easter.

Ah Nevets, that's precisely why I need to spend more time in your imagination.   You may or may not understand how highly I esteem your wonderful thought processes.   At any rate, I think you're right and word of Jamie's demise or something would have reached Cersei by now.  I'm curious as to how far off you expect the timeline is?    If Jamie is/was killed, do you see him experiencing a revival? 

The BWB seems to be a fluid group.   Windblown may be a better name as they do seem to follow the leader whatever that leader's ambitions.   We know Thoros, probably Lem, too, were high ranking officers in the group under Beric.  Considering their influence, I don't understand why Lem at least, would involve himself with LSH.   So many of the group are missing from the current line up.   Of course, plot wise I suppose that leaves room for new recruits, but I'm still unsure what for.  

I thought Jamie burning Cersei's letter, not to mention his thoughts, was and indication of Jamie's change in affection if not alliance?   His current mission seems to be very much in Cersei's service.  However, he thinks to himself repeatedly, about how to unravel the siege at Riverrun without breaking his faith with Cat.   I realize the siege itself may be enough to have broken faith.   Perhaps Jamie doesn't understand the extent to which LSH holds the debts owed to her?  

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, divica said:

As we were talking about the objectives of the BwB a while ago I was watching some theory vídeos and there were a few interesting things.

If the darrys are still targaryen supporters and varys is using them since AGoT then what if the BwB is a big varys plan to gain the support of the smallfolk in the riverlands?

We know that the darrys were involved in the BwB since the beguining even though ned ordered them to not interfere. Then the BwB is a very imaginative idea based in the aventures of arthur dayne. And varys was in the small council around that time, so he knew how effective the kingswood brotherwood was.

Then we have lemoncloak that somehow appeared and might be another targaryen supporter and is in a leading position. 

So we have a group of individuals that is unifying the smallfolk against their current king and might be killing several lords in the riverlands which is led by a hated house. How brillant would it be to have the exileds westerosi lords of the golden company marry the widows of these lords or take the empty houses and then put some Aegon supporter well like by the smallfolk as lord of the riverlands?

Good Morning Sunshine!   Clarify just a thing or 2 here before I jump in?   Do you think the lords of Westeros lump the Targs in with the Blackfyres?  Do you think this young Vance man, Peck? , is spying on Jamie for some greater political move? 

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I saw that, well done! There are so many great and intriguing posts I want to reply to, but it will have to wait until I come back from work... Probably by then the thread will be 20+ pages long!

 

Yah, it's quite a fast moving discussion isn't it?   Make you a deal--how about you take a look at the findings of our "timeline" and jump in right where you feel pertinent?   

The biggest surprise to me was the location of the BWB--it's far closer to Pennytree than I anticipated.   Seems to me there is a lot of wasted time in those 5 days between Brienne's trial and finding Jamie.  

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'll add one more to your list.  This s what LSH tells Brienne, she want proof of her faith:

Not long ago she was show the path of the faithful by Septon Meribald:

I think she will take Jaime to the Quiet Isle.

LynnS, Good Morning!   Outside the symbolism how does Brienne walking the path of the faith relate to Jamie?   Nice--this will distract me all day.  

Just for fun--we've got @Joy Hill's ideas about what Jamie at the QI could mean.   Do you care to venture a guess?   

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Good Morning Sunshine!   Clarify just a thing or 2 here before I jump in?   Do you think the lords of Westeros lump the Targs in with the Blackfyres?  Do you think this young Vance man, Peck? , is spying on Jamie for some greater political move? 

No. I think varys is saying to every targ supporter is westeros that fAegon is really rhaegar's son. So only him, ilirio and maybe some members of the golden company know the truth about fAegon. In addition we know that varys has some plan since AGoT. And that the BwB is unifying the smallfolk against the lannisters. This can even explain why they chose LSH as their leader. If they want to make the riverlands side with fAegon it is useful to have a tully saying fAegon should be the king.

And I think if Peck is spying it should be for a Lannyster (tywin, kevan or cersei). He is a young man from a house in the westerlands that testifies against tyrion... It seems he is very pro lannyster.