Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't know how they would have met. It's this part of Meera's story that gets ignored that had me wondering.

Every speculation I've read about what happened at Harrenhal goes off the premise that the KotLT fled after the 3rd win, that Aerys sent Rhaegar after them right away. But that's simply not the case.

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?" (Bran II, ASOS 24)

If we accept that Lyanna was the KotLT, then she was still there after she won her 3 jousts, the knights she beat would have gone to her with their horses and their armors. So she did not flee. She stayed, told them what she wanted in return for them to keep their horses and armors.

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"
"No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end." (Bran II, ASOS 24)

This is the most important part that gets completely ignored. Aerys sent Rhaegar to look for the Knight of the Laughing Tree the next morning because they did not show up.

So this being the case, and if Lyanna was the mystery knight, then it leaves two options and the reason I don't use the political option is because Barristan confirms in The Kingbreaker chapter in ADWD that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, so that leaves this;

• Rhaegar stumbles accidentally upon Lyanna as she is discarding her shield.
• Rhaegar and Lyanna knew each other before hand, and we know from Harwin that Arya and Lyanna ride their horses the same way, like a northman (Arya III, ASOS 17). It would probably not be all that difficult for him to put two and two together if he knew her, saw her riding her horse. All he has to do is look at the stands and see that she is missing to confirm any suspicions he might have.

I think Rhaegar knew that it was Lyanna. And the Knight vanished just in time, because Rhaegar sent her a warning on that night. Probably when King Aerys ordered to unmask TKOTLT on next day, among people present there was either Arthur Dayne or Rhaegar himself. Thus Rhaegar has sent Ashara Dayne to warn Lyanna about upcoming danger, and he also suggested her to get rid of that shield.

The question is - how did he knew beforehand that it was Lyanna?

I think that he noticed her during that first night.

Just imagine that scene: Rhaegar was singing his song, and many ladies present there were crying afterwards, amongst them Lyanna. Though when Benjen started to mock Lyanna for her sentimentality, she took her goblet, and poured out her wine on Benjen's head. Obviously that Benjen was screaming at her for doing this. So they caused commotion. And Lyanna's unladylike behaviour gained people's attention. That's when Rhaegar noticed her. And because he had artistic mind (he loved to read books, he was composing music, and writing songs, he was occasionally performing as streat artist, so he was noticing things and remembering details), he noticed and remembered not only Lyanna, but also her surrowndings - Howland Reed, that was sitting alongside her, the sorry state in which beaten and bandaged Howland was, and also Howland's lather shield. So when later Rhaegar saw TKOTLT, he noticed 1. that it was Howland's shield, and 2. that the Knight was not Howland, because the Knight had different stature and bodybuild than Howland <- artists notice stuff like that. So Rhaegar realised that it was Lyanna.

According to Meera's story, first was scene with sad song, and only after it, Lyanna showed to her brothers those three knights, whose squires attacked Howland:

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“Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf… but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

“Amidst all this merriment, the little crannogman spied the three squires who’d attacked him. One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well.”

“The Freys,” said Bran. “The Freys of the Crossing.”

“Then, as now,” she agreed. “The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. ‘I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,’ the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck…”

So after scene that was caused by Lyanna and Benjen, Rhaegar noticed Lyanna and was paying attention to her. Thus he knew what was going on at Stark's table. Because you don't have to be a genius, to realise what was going on, even if he was only looking at them from afar, and not actually hearing what they were talking about. Howland was bandaged, it was happening prior beginning of Tournament, so it's obvious that his wounds were not caused by participation in Tournament. And Howland with Lyanna were pointing out to Starks three knights, that next day were defeated by TKOTLT.

So Rhaegar realised that it was Lyanna. Because of her pointing out those knights to her brothers, and her being protective over Howland, and also the Knight had Howland's shield, but was of different stature than Howland, and was exeptional rider, while Crannogmen are not a good riders. So Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as QofL&B, as acknowledgement of her previous accomplishments during Tournament. Could be that if she haven't withdrawn from participation, she would have won, and became a Champion of Harrenhal. So when Rhaegar gave Champion's crown to Lyanna, it wasn't a romantic gesture, it was a recognition of Lyanna as capable fighter, from Rhaegar who won in Tournament only because of her withdrawal.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it does.  It's very old and rickety enough to pull down.  This is typical of many Irish round towers and they are all built with same basic design.  We even get an exact description of one such tower in Arya's POV.  This is not a tower built with a castle, religious building or fortification of any kind in association with it.  The fact that Ned buries the KG at the foot of the tower calls to mind that graveyards are also associated with such towers.  There is just enough space for someone to squeeze in.  The fact that it is easily torn down by two men suggests that it is run down to the point of being of no more use than a landmark.  Do we really think that Lyanna gave birth in such a place or that Rhaegar would have kept her there?  Did the place really smell of blood and roses? It's stretching credulity.

I did get your links to open and completely see how difficult it would be to give birth in a place like that.  She would almost have to sit up against a wall and hope the baby didn't hit the opposite wall!  I've listened to many interviews with GRRM.  He seems very interested in the architecture of castles, et al.  I believe he tricked me again with the TOJ story in Ned's FEVER DREAM!  

I can only agree completely with you.   Still WOW.  

[LynnS]

I think the KotLT is just as likely to be a hedge knight who conducts himself in the manner of the warriors sons of old.  His message that Aerys' lords should teach their knights honor - to defend the meek and helpless - is a message that would sting given the history of the last Targaryen who had any dealings with them.  The High Sparrow may well have been a hedge knight in his youth, a small man:

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He is a small, thin, hard-eyed, grey-haired man with a heavily lined face. Unlike previous High Septons, he does not wear rich robes or elaborate crowns of crystal and spun gold. Instead, he wears a simple white wool tunic that goes to his ankles. The man is truly devout to his faith and has an iron will.

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

Jaime shrugged. "I am certain she had reasons."

"Reasons?" Lady Genna made a rude noise. "They had best be good reasons. The Swords and Stars troubled even the Targaryens. The Conqueror himself tread carefully with the Faith, so they would not oppose him. And when Aegon died and the lords rose up against his sons, both orders were in the thick of that rebellion. The more pious lords supported them, and many of the smallfolk. King Maegor finally had to put a bounty on them. He paid a dragon for the head of any unrepentant Warrior's Son, and a silver stag for the scalp of a Poor Fellow, if I recall my history. Thousands were slain, but nigh as many still roamed the realm, defiant, until the Iron Throne slew Maegor and King Jaehaerys agreed to pardon all those who would set aside their swords."

I doubt Aerys wants to be confronted by such a one as the hedge knight, that would challenge him, defiant.   That would certainly explain his anger.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

So like all poor fellows, the mystery knight takes no worldly goods or ransom. 

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"No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end."

They didn't find or unmask him.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I did get your links to open and completely see how difficult it would be to give birth in a place like that.  She would almost have to sit up against a wall and hope the baby didn't hit the opposite wall!  I've listened to many interviews with GRRM.  He seems very interested in the architecture of castles, et al.  I believe he tricked me again with the TOJ story in Ned's FEVER DREAM!  

I can only agree completely with you.   Still WOW.  

If Rhaegar was involved with Lyanna, why would Rhaegar even do that to her?  Ned found her somewhere else and I can't shoehorn her into the tower of joy to make the narrative work.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I think Rhaegar knew that it was Lyanna. And the Knight vanished just in time, because Rhaegar sent her a warning on that night. Probably when King Aerys ordered to unmask TKOTLT on next day, among people present there was either Arthur Dayne or Rhaegar himself. Thus Rhaegar has sent Ashara Dayne to warn Lyanna about upcoming danger, and he also suggested her to get rid of that shield.

The question is - how did he knew beforehand that it was Lyanna?

I think that he noticed her during that first night.

Just imagine that scene: Rhaegar was singing his song, and many ladies present there were crying afterwards, amongst them Lyanna. Though when Benjen started to mock Lyanna for her sentimentality, she took her goblet, and poured out her wine on Benjen's head. Obviously that Benjen was screaming at her for doing this. So they caused commotion. And Lyanna's unladylike behaviour gained people's attention. That's when Rhaegar noticed her. And because he had artistic mind (he loved to read books, he was composing music, and writing songs, he was occasionally performing as streat artist, so he was noticing things and remembering details), he noticed and remembered not only Lyanna, but also her surrowndings - Howland Reed, that was sitting alongside her, the sorry state in which beaten and bandaged Howland was, and also Howland's lather shield. So when later Rhaegar saw TKOTLT, he noticed 1. that it was Howland's shield, and 2. that the Knight was not Howland, because the Knight had different stature and bodybuild than Howland <- artists notice stuff like that. So Rhaegar realised that it was Lyanna.

According to Meera's story, first was scene with sad song, and only after it, Lyanna showed to her brothers those three knights, whose squires attacked Howland:

So after scene that was caused by Lyanna and Benjen, Rhaegar noticed Lyanna and was paying attention to her. Thus he knew what was going on at Stark's table. Because you don't have to be a genius, to realise what was going on, even if he was only looking at them from afar, and not actually hearing what they were talking about. Howland was bandaged, it was happening prior beginning of Tournament, so it's obvious that his wounds were not caused by participation in Tournament. And Howland with Lyanna were pointing out to Starks three knights, that next day were defeated by TKOTLT.

So Rhaegar realised that it was Lyanna. Because of her pointing out those knights to her brothers, and her being protective over Howland, and also the Knight had Howland's shield, but was of different stature than Howland, and was exeptional rider, while Crannogmen are not a good riders. So Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as QofL&B, as acknowledgement of her previous accomplishments during Tournament. Could be that if she haven't withdrawn from participation, she would have won, and became a Champion of Harrenhal. So when Rhaegar gave Champion's crown to Lyanna, it wasn't a romantic gesture, it was a recognition of Lyanna as capable fighter, from Rhaegar who won in Tournament only because of her withdrawal.

I like that!  

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think the KotLT is just as likely to be a hedge knight who conducts himself in the manner of the warriors sons of old.  His message that Aerys' lords should teach their knights honor - to defend the meek and helpless - is a message that would sting given the history of the last Targaryen who had any dealings with them.  The High Sparrow may well have been a hedge knight in his youth, a small man:

I doubt Aerys wants to be confronted by such a one as the hedge knight, that would challenge him, defiant.   That would certainly explain his anger.

So like all poor fellows, the mystery knight takes no worldly goods or ransom. 

They didn't find or unmask him.

That's very interesting, LynnS.  Do you think the fact that the KotLT wasn't caught is the point of the story? 

[Faera]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Ashara has been played up as someone's love interest.  I hope we get to the bottom of that, too.  I think it likely that she and Ned became friends and helped each other.  It's hard to imagine love being a stain on someone's honor.  I was forever stumped about why Ned would return Dawn when there was so much to do.  It makes sense now, though I doubt she threw herself from a tower or died.   

1

While I do think that Ned might well have become a friend to House Dayne in general, perhaps Ashara herself, I doubt there was anything romantic at all. Being firmly on the Brandon-Ashara train, I think the reason Ned is so highly regarded by the Daynes is that he did so much for them and to help Ashara after Brandon essentially ruined her. Had it been Ned who dishonoured Ashara, Ned Dayne would not be known as Ned Dayne.

So many people seem desperate to see her somehow to have survived and someone in disguise, be it Jyana Reed or Septa Lemore. I don't believe either idea. I think she is dead, personally. If she is alive, then I'm doubtful she is Lemore or someone else. Unless the possible Ashara character is noted to have violet/purple eyes, I'm not convinced.

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Oh Gads, Faera!  Not a romantic love.   Robert and Ned were like brothers.  

I was joking! (Though some people have talked about the theory in all seriousness...)

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Rickard not calling the banners causes one to wonder why.  Avoidance of a military strike is a very good reason along with not wanting to be guilty of treason.  Let me throw in the possibility that their alliance wasn't yet ready and no single head of house (Stark, Arryn, Tully, Baratheon) was prepared to take on the perceived strength of the crown.   Instead of marriages this rebellion cemented their alliance.   Gotta love a wicked twist.  Lot of ways that could go but it is a fascinating subject.  

 

2

True, he probably didn't feel secure until everyone was safely married off. It is a pity but perhaps Rickard's primary concern was getting his heir back at the time. He wouldn't want to do anything to risk his life -- though it was hopeless either way. Brandon was dead the moment he stormed down to the Red Keep, like the "gallant fool" he was.

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What in the Neck...classic!   Funny how OCM is perceived.   Most the folks I've read assume he's a greenseer himself, despite Jojen's protestations.   From my little hovel behind the Dreadfort all I see is a man with exceptional earth skills, possibly tied to the COTF or old gods, who genuinely loves the Starks.   Oh boy, did I just open a door to criticism or what?  Certainly by virtue of being a CM he's got er unusual skills and talents.  We walked with Jojen and Meera over 3 giant novels and understand Jojen has the green dreams.  What has Meera got but her faith and love and bravery?   I suspect OCM may be more like his daughter than son in gifts from the gods.

 

6

Howland is not a greenseer, that much was made clear. His skills were clearly listed in the story and it is essentially made spelt out that of the two Reedlings, Meera is her father's daughter and, I suspect, the one expected to one day succeed him, not Jojen. Ultimately, outside of those magical dreams, Jojen is very limited by his fragility in that he cannot fight. He is utterly defined by his green dreams to the point where he is dressed in green from head-to-toe. While having these green dreams are impressive, rare and useful, we know it also limits them. Even with the CotF, they were sickly and often died young, meaning they were valued for their insight as wise men and women... not suitable warrior and leaders. The CotF had the wood dancers (i.e. the hunters) for that, which are roles that suit Howland/Meera more. He also lacks the charisma and interpersonal skills required to be a true leader; though he dictates the actions of Bran's crew, it is really because of Meera that Bran begins to accept it all. Granted, Bran might be more predisposed toward Meera because a.) personality wise, she is more like him and b.) he's infatuated with her more or less from the get-go... but the point remains that she maintains a fair deal of control over 

That is why I don't think all Meera (and thus Howland) has is "faith and love and bravery" - there is a bit more to it than that based on what is said. Not all these special skills of the crannogmen need be about magical dreams or other magical powers. Looking at how their skills are listed, it almost feels like their very bodies have supernatural or superhuman magical qualities:

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Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"
"No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear." - Bran II, ASOS

 

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"The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees. I could not do these things, no more than you could ..." - Bran I, ASOS

 

 

Many of these skills are equitable: both "breathe mud", which might be a fanciful way of saying they are sure-footed, or sense the earth beneath them, almost like warging the air or earth or something, "run on leaves" and "fly through trees" indicate great agility and nimbleness again, and the "sharp ears, keen eyes and steady hand" (indicating instinct, spacial awareness and dexterity to great levels) might have helped Howland "talk to trees" -- it is indicated that one can talk through the weirwoods, after all, you need good ears in order to deceiper that is coming through the tree. Plus, Howland was at the God's Eye, so his abilities must be very acute.

Taking all of this into account, imagine how Howland managed to survive the battles of RR. We know from GRRM that he was with Ned throughout the war. When outnumbered and being shoved around, he is exposed but if he gets some distance between him and some armoured knights, you get the feeling he might have been difficult to land a hit on. CM are thought of as "sneaks" and "cowards" because of their guerrilla tactics but it might also be because the hunters among them rely far more on stealth over brute force. 

Bottom line: Howland still feels really, really interesting and impressive even without the green dreams or greenseer skills. Honestly, if anything, the fragility that comes along with such gifts would have only served to hinder his ability to do all the other crannogman tricks.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The KG are all styled 'white swords' but the only one of them with a true white sword is Arthur

Though the story referred to Jon Connington as lord of griffins. Jon also was KG.

If the story gave a specific name to Jon Con, then if that other White Sword, that danced with Ashara, had a specific nickname, then the teller of the story would have used that nickname. The teller called Oberyn Martell a Red Viper, and Ned Stark a Quiet Wolf.

People had nicknames for Arthur, Gerold, Barristan.

If the teller meant Lywin Martell he would have given him a name with a hint to his identity - something like sword of Sunspear, or sun of Dorne, or red sword, or the lord of sands.

If it was Gerold Hightower he would have called him White Bull, or lord of white swords (i.e. Lord Commander of Kingsguards, thus Lord of other White Swords), or lord of high tower.

Jaime Lannister would have been called with nickname, something like golden knight, or golden lion, or knight of the rock, or prince of the rock, or lion cub (because he was the newest member of KG and Lannister).

If it was Arthur Dayne, then why not to call him the maiden's brother? Why not to say that she danced with her brother, then with red viper, lord of griffins, and quiet wolf? It wasn't Arthur. Why would he even dance with his sister? He's not Jaime, and she wasn't Cersei.

So that leaves Barristan Selmy (who we know was there and also probably saw Ashara dancing with those four, but based on what he was remembering about Ashara, seems that he didn't dared to ask her for a dance), Oswell Whent and Jonothor Darry.

Both Oswell and Jonothor had no specific nicknames, so it could be either one of them.

What is obvious is that Aerys didn't attended that feast. While other guests were celebrating beginning of Tournament, paranoid Aerys has locked himself in some safe place, away from crowd, and he was guarded by at least some of KG. Gerold is LC of KG, so he was probably guarding Aerys. Arthur is best swordsman in 7K, so he was probably also with Aerys. Usually Aerys' chamber was guarded by two KG. And usually it were Jaime and Jonothor Darry. But away from home, in some uncknown place, Aerys would have doubled his guard. He sent Jaime back to KL, and we know that Barristan and Jon Con were at that feast. So four KG that guarded Aerys, most likely were Lord Commander of Kingsguards Gerold Hightower, best swordsman of KG Arthur Dayne, Aerys' usual guardian Jonothor Darry, and Lewyn Martell (because Aerys didn't trusted him).

Aerys came to that Tournament only because Varys convinced him that Rhaegar is plotting something, and that he's going to use this Tournament to gather there other conspirants. Rhaegar's wife Elia was niece of Lewyn Martell. So if Aerys was convinced that Rhaegar and his people are plotting something against him, then he would have kept Lewyn close to himself, and also under watch of three other KG. Aerys trusted to Gerold Hightower and to Jonothor Darry, so he chose both of them to guard him, and also watch over two other KG, to whom he didn't trusted - Lewyn Martell, uncle of Rhaegar's wife, and Arthur Dayne - Rhaegar's best friend.

That leaves Oswell Whent and Barristan Selmy. It's unlikely that Barristan was first person who asked Ashara to dance. He was reluctant towards her. "She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

It's unlikely that he manned up and asked her first out of all others, before Oberyn Martell, and before Jon Connington. But brother of Oswell Whent was hosting that event, so it was Oswell's duty to "open the ball", with first dance.

[divica]

12 minutes ago, Faera said:

While I do think that Ned might well have become a friend to House Dayne in general, perhaps Ashara herself, I doubt there was anything romantic at all. Being firmly on the Brandon-Ashara train, I think the reason Ned is so highly regarded by the Daynes is that he did so much for them and to help Ashara after Brandon essentially ruined her. Had it been Ned who dishonoured Ashara, Ned Dayne would not be known as Ned Dayne.

So many people seem desperate to see her somehow to have survived and someone in disguise, be it Jyana Reed or Septa Lemore. I don't believe either idea. I think she is dead, personally. If she is alive, then I'm doubtful she is Lemore or someone else. Unless the possible Ashara character is noted to have violet/purple eyes, I'm not convinced.

If brandon had ruined ashara I don t think the daynes would be very happy with the starks. And it still make asshara's death very strange. However he returned Dawn to them and it is priceless so anything is possible.

You do know that septa lemore (and maybe quaithe) have purple/violet eyes? I think people think they are ashara because of that...

12 minutes ago, Faera said:

True, he probably didn't feel secure until everyone was safely married off. It is a pity but perhaps Rickard's primary concern was getting his heir back at the time. He wouldn't want to do anything to risk his life -- though it was hopeless either way. Brandon was dead the moment he stormed down to the Red Keep, like the "gallant fool" he was.

I think rickard never thought aerys was mad enough to kill them... And it is one of the things that might support that rickard was ploting against aerys. That and how agressive brandon is towards rhaegar.

12 minutes ago, Faera said:

Howland is not a greenseer, that much was made clear. His skills were clearly listed in the story and it is essentially made spelt out that of the two Reedlings, Meera is her father's daughter and, I suspect, the one expected to one day succeed him, not Jojen. Ultimately, outside of those magical dreams, Jojen is very limited by his fragility in that he cannot fight. He is utterly defined by his green dreams to the point where he is dressed in green from head-to-toe. While having these green dreams are impressive, rare and useful, we know it also limits them. Even with the CotF, they were sickly and often died young, meaning they were valued for their insight as wise men and women... not suitable warrior and leaders. The CotF had the wood dancers (i.e. the hunters) for that, which are roles that suit Howland/Meera more. He also lacks the charisma and interpersonal skills required to be a true leader; though he dictates the actions of Bran's crew, it is really because of Meera that Bran begins to accept it all. Granted, Bran might be more predisposed toward Meera because a.) personality wise, she is more like him and b.) he's infatuated with her more or less from the get-go... but the point remains that she maintains a fair deal of control over 

That is why I don't think all Meera (and thus Howland) has is "faith and love and bravery" - there is a bit more to it than that based on what is said. Not all these special skills of the crannogmen need be about magical dreams or other magical powers. Looking at how their skills are listed, it almost feels like their very bodies have supernatural or superhuman magical qualities:

Many of these skills are equitable: both "breathe mud", which might be a fanciful way of saying they are sure-footed, or sense the earth beneath them, almost like warging the air or earth or something, "run on leaves" and "fly through trees" indicate great agility and nimbleness again, and the "sharp ears, keen eyes and steady hand" (indicating instinct, spacial awareness and dexterity to great levels) might have helped Howland "talk to trees" -- it is indicated that one can talk through the weirwoods, after all, you need good ears in order to deceiper that is coming through the tree. Plus, Howland was at the God's Eye, so his abilities must be very acute.

Taking all of this into account, imagine how Howland managed to survive the battles of RR. We know from GRRM that he was with Ned throughout the war. When outnumbered and being shoved around, he is exposed but if he gets some distance between him and some armoured knights, you get the feeling he might have been difficult to land a hit on. CM are thought of as "sneaks" and "cowards" because of their guerrilla tactics but it might also be because the hunters among them rely far more on stealth over brute force. 

Bottom line: Howland still feels really, really interesting and impressive even without the green dreams or greenseer skills. Honestly, if anything, the fragility that comes along with such gifts would have only served to hinder his ability to do all the other crannogman tricks.

Reading the quotes I get the idea that HR is a tree dancer. As in he can control plants and the soil where they grow (wich makes sense because plants need to interact with the earth to grow). He probably has a special conection to plants (run on leaves" and "fly through trees) as in he can feel them and therefore take them into consideration when he moves, control the proprieties of the soil (change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word) because it is needed to make plantes grow well and he can control in which direction plants move (He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear).

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's very interesting, LynnS.  Do you think the fact that the KotLT wasn't caught is the point of the story? 

We're told by Meera by way of Howland that he wasn't.  Considering the location of the tournament, so close to the God's Eye and the famous Pact; the fact that a crannogman has just come from there (something Rhaegar may have learned on his investigation) and that a knight shows up using the charge of old gods to defeat three knights; I think that would make an impression on Rhaegar.  It's just as likely that he gave the queen of beauty's laurel to Lyanna to honor the old gods given the circumstances.

[Curled Finger]

24 minutes ago, Faera said:

While I do think that Ned might well have become a friend to House Dayne in general, perhaps Ashara herself, I doubt there was anything romantic at all. Being firmly on the Brandon-Ashara train, I think the reason Ned is so highly regarded by the Daynes is that he did so much for them and to help Ashara after Brandon essentially ruined her. Had it been Ned who dishonoured Ashara, Ned Dayne would not be known as Ned Dayne.

So many people seem desperate to see her somehow to have survived and someone in disguise, be it Jyana Reed or Septa Lemore. I don't believe either idea. I think she is dead, personally. If she is alive, then I'm doubtful she is Lemore or someone else. Unless the possible Ashara character is noted to have violet/purple eyes, I'm not convinced.

I was joking! (Though some people have talked about the theory in all seriousness...)

True, he probably didn't feel secure until everyone was safely married off. It is a pity but perhaps Rickard's primary concern was getting his heir back at the time. He wouldn't want to do anything to risk his life -- though it was hopeless either way. Brandon was dead the moment he stormed down to the Red Keep, like the "gallant fool" he was.

Howland is not a greenseer, that much was made clear. His skills were clearly listed in the story and it is essentially made spelt out that of the two Reedlings, Meera is her father's daughter and, I suspect, the one expected to one day succeed him, not Jojen. Ultimately, outside of those magical dreams, Jojen is very limited by his fragility in that he cannot fight. He is utterly defined by his green dreams to the point where he is dressed in green from head-to-toe. While having these green dreams are impressive, rare and useful, we know it also limits them. Even with the CotF, they were sickly and often died young, meaning they were valued for their insight as wise men and women... not suitable warrior and leaders. The CotF had the wood dancers (i.e. the hunters) for that, which are roles that suit Howland/Meera more. He also lacks the charisma and interpersonal skills required to be a true leader; though he dictates the actions of Bran's crew, it is really because of Meera that Bran begins to accept it all. Granted, Bran might be more predisposed toward Meera because a.) personality wise, she is more like him and b.) he's infatuated with her more or less from the get-go... but the point remains that she maintains a fair deal of control over 

That is why I don't think all Meera (and thus Howland) has is "faith and love and bravery" - there is a bit more to it than that based on what is said. Not all these special skills of the crannogmen need be about magical dreams or other magical powers. Looking at how their skills are listed, it almost feels like their very bodies have supernatural or superhuman magical qualities:

Many of these skills are equitable: both "breathe mud", which might be a fanciful way of saying they are sure-footed, or sense the earth beneath them, almost like warging the air or earth or something, "run on leaves" and "fly through trees" indicate great agility and nimbleness again, and the "sharp ears, keen eyes and steady hand" (indicating instinct, spacial awareness and dexterity to great levels) might have helped Howland "talk to trees" -- it is indicated that one can talk through the weirwoods, after all, you need good ears in order to deceiper that is coming through the tree. Plus, Howland was at the God's Eye, so his abilities must be very acute.

Taking all of this into account, imagine how Howland managed to survive the battles of RR. We know from GRRM that he was with Ned throughout the war. When outnumbered and being shoved around, he is exposed but if he gets some distance between him and some armoured knights, you get the feeling he might have been difficult to land a hit on. CM are thought of as "sneaks" and "cowards" because of their guerrilla tactics but it might also be because the hunters among them rely far more on stealth over brute force. 

Bottom line: Howland still feels really, really interesting and impressive even without the green dreams or greenseer skills. Honestly, if anything, the fragility that comes along with such gifts would have only served to hinder his ability to do all the other crannogman tricks.

What a lovely reminder of Howland (and Meera's) skill set.  Well done, Lady.  

One small thing here.  Ned Dayne is only 11 or 12.  I'm not sure if you mean that someone would have had an affair with Ashara well after the rebellion 17 years prior.  Allyria Dayne is said to be a sister to Ned, but her age fits much more closely with the rebellion.   She's 16 to 18, I believe.  She was betrothed to Beric Dondarion.   Conversations about this dishonoring of Ashara confuse me.  I have to take it from the stand point of Mr. Honor, Barristan Selmy.  Dishonor could be something far less shocking than an unwed pregnancy. 

I've seen the argument that Dorne is far more accepting of bastards which is true enough way south.   Starfall is much farther north and west making it possible that the region is more disposed to behave like the other kingdoms in this regard.  Allyria is called Dayne, not Sand.  I think it may be possible that Allyria really is Ashara's child but that she was raised by Ashara's parents to protect her identity or something.  Who knows?   Perhaps all children born of a Dayne at Starfall are called Dayne as a matter of course.   Whatever the case, Allyria is a convenient daughter of Dayne.    Just some food for thought. 

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Though the story referred to Jon Connington as lord of griffins. Jon also was KG.

 

Interesting premise, but Jon Connington was not a Kings Guard.  One cannot have lands or titles as a Kings Guard.  Jon Connington was Lord of Griffin's Roost, another Baratheon bannerman, and a very close friend of Rhaegar's.  Jon Con served as Hand to Aerys for 10 minutes or so.   Just so we are all on the same page! 

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I've seen the argument that Dorne is far more accepting of bastards which is true enough way south.   Starfall is much farther north and west making it possible that the region is more disposed to behave like the other kingdoms in this regard.  Allyria is called Dayne, not Sand.  I think it may be possible that Allyria really is Ashara's child but that she was raised by Ashara's parents to protect her identity or something.  Who knows?   Perhaps all children born of a Dayne at Starfall are called Dayne as a matter of course.   Whatever the case, Allyria is a convenient daughter of Dayne.    Just some food for thought. 

One good argument would be that she is ned and ashara's daughter. However Ned can t come home with 2 bastards that look too  diferent to be twins so the daynes lied about her parentage?

I don t think this fits vey well with the rest of the story...

[Curled Finger]

8 minutes ago, divica said:

If brandon had ruined ashara I don t think the daynes would be very happy with the starks. And it still make asshara's death very strange. However he returned Dawn to them and it is priceless so anything is possible.

You do know that septa lemore (and maybe quaithe) have purple/violet eyes? I think people think they are ashara because of that...

I think rickard never thought aerys was mad enough to kill them... And it is one of the things that might support that rickard was ploting against aerys. That and how agressive brandon is towards rhaegar.

Reading the quotes I get the idea that HR is a tree dancer. As in he can control plants and the soil where they grow (wich makes sense because plants need to interact with the earth to grow). He probably has a special conection to plants (run on leaves" and "fly through trees) as in he can feel them and therefore take them into consideration when he moves, control the proprieties of the soil (change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word) because it is needed to make plantes grow well and he can control in which direction plants move (He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear).

Good Morning, divica!   I see you are enjoying yourself already today.  Excellent.   

Just a few points so that we are all on the same page.  Barristan says Ashara was "dishonored" not ruined.  Someone could have treated her rudely or made a pass at her that embarrassed her.   We get this from Barristan only, so we have to consider the source here. 

I'm not sure about Quaithe, but we absolutely don't know what color eyes Septa Lemore has.   Much is made of this.  All we really know is she is a handsome woman with stretch marks and at least Tyrion thinks her breasts are nice.  Those of us who like the idea that Lemore is Ashara tend to relate that to the stretch marks and to a lesser degree, her handsomeness.   It's not absolute.  Just a nice mystery and possibility.  

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, divica said:

One good argument would be that she is ned and ashara's daughter. However Ned can t come home with 2 bastards that look too  diferent to be twins so the daynes lied about her parentage?

I don t think this fits vey well with the rest of the story...

It's as good as any other argument.  I will try to see if I can find a description of Allyria, but I don't think there is one.   If I find anything I will let you know.  Would Ned really leave any child of his own blood?    I'm not sure Allyria is Ashara's child, she really just fits the age.   There and again, I'm not sure her age is even confirmed, but I will add that to my search.  

[Curled Finger]

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We're told by Meera by way of Howland that he wasn't.  Considering the location of the tournament, so close to the God's Eye and the famous Pact; the fact that a crannogman has just come from there (something Rhaegar may have learned on his investigation) and that a knight shows up using the charge of old gods to defeat three knights; I think that would make an impression on Rhaegar.  It's just as likely that he gave the queen of beauty's laurel to Lyanna to honor the old gods given the circumstances.

You could be right here.  Like anything else, Rhaegar could have had multiple reasons for crowning Lyanna.  Is there symbolism in the crowning itself? 

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I have to take it from the stand point of Mr. Honor, Barristan Selmy.  Dishonor could be something far less shocking than an unwed pregnancy. 

Well he is the one who makes that comment and given his frame of mind; Ashera should have been crowned QoLaB.  I think that's the dishonor he conjures in his mind.  In his fantasy, the act of winning the tourney and crowning the Queen would mean that she would turn to him rather than Stark.  That she didn't get the crown dishonors him in his mind and if he had been a better knight, she wouldn't have been 'dishonored'.

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Good Morning, divica!   I see you are enjoying yourself already today.  Excellent.   

Just a few points so that we are all on the same page.  Barristan says Ashara was "dishonored" not ruined.  Someone could have treated her rudely or made a pass at her that embarrassed her.   We get this from Barristan only, so we have to consider the source here. 

I'm not sure about Quaithe, but we absolutely don't know what color eyes Septa Lemore has.   Much is made of this.  All we really know is she is a handsome woman with stretch marks and at least Tyrion thinks her breasts are nice.  Those of us who like the idea that Lemore is Ashara tend to relate that to the stretch marks and to a lesser degree, her handsomeness.   It's not absolute.  Just a nice mystery and possibility.  

I could have sworn both had purple eyes. You forgot to add that she once had a child. So maybe her child was borne still borne and she decided to become a septa? And joined the fAegon plot because she wants vengence against the starks that dishonered her and killed her borther and friend and their allies?

I could support this, but sincerelly I don t remembre lemore's character anymore...

So if she is dishonered I think rhaegar wanted to marry her to one of the starks and he said no. It would be a good move to disrupt the union of the other houses...

[Curled Finger]

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"  ASOS Arya III  Ned Dayne to Arya.

So perhaps Allyria is one of the other Daynes?  Note that Ned doesn't call Allyria Lady.   So Ned is the brother of Arthur and Ashara and his parents are dead because he is the Lord of Starfall.  There is no description of Allyria. 

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well he is the one who makes that comment and given his frame of mind; Ashera should have been crowned QoLaB.  I think that's the dishonor he conjures in his mind.  In his fantasy, the act of winning the tourney and crowning the Queen would mean that she would turn to him rather than Stark.  That she didn't get the crown dishonors him in his mind and if he had been a better knight, she wouldn't have been 'dishonored'.

That's perfect, Lynn S.   Just perfect.   Thanks so much.