Choice between Betrothals

[Angel Eyes]

If two houses push to have a son marry a lord's daughter, which should you choose?

Scenario: Take Ned Stark. Robert has suggested Joffrey marry Sansa as in canon, but say he has also received offers from his bannermen, i.e. if the Greatjon offers a marriage between Sansa and the Smalljon. Should Ned stick with the higher offer or have Sansa marry within the bannermen?

 

 

[shameeka]

Ned would accept Robert's offer because he loves Robert so much. And isn't Smalljon too old for Sansa?

[TMIFairy]

Not much of a choice - having a Stark Queen Consort is a lot of prestige and influence AND Ned (not knowing what we readers no) will go for such "national exposure". He has a shitload of children to marry to bannermen Houses and reinforce "domestic influence".

 

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Sending Sansa to Last Hearth would be hilarious though. 

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Sending Sansa to Last Hearth would be hilarious though. 

Yes

Or to Karholm.

After snubbing Karstarks - i.e. no Robb./Alys - Ned might try to mend fences by shipping Harrion and Sansa.

Although the best match would be - after Domeric's death - Roose.

[Megorova]

Stick with Joffrey, for three reasons:

1. Main reason - Robert's offer was first, and Ned already accepted it. So there's no going back on his word. Ned isn't Robb. As Tyrion noted about Robb - "Your bastard brother has all your father’s graces, it would seem."

2. Joffrey is King's son and a future King. Choosing instead of him someone with lower status, would be a grave offence to Baratheons-Lannisters.

3. Robert is Ned's closest friend, while Umbers are just Ned's bannermen.

Ned didn't knew about Joffrey's sadistic personality, prior Robert offered him to marry their children. So there was no reason to reject that offer. Sansa wasn't promised to someone else, and she wasn't in love with someone, and furthermore she liked Joffrey when she met him, and she always wanted to leave The North, and live in some better place, than boring, grey, and cold Winterfell.

Though if Ned knew about what kind of creep Joffrey was, then obviously Smalljon would have been a better option, even though he's too old for Sansa, not good looking like Joffrey, and not a future King, and just a son of mere bannerman and minor northern Lord.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, shameeka said:

Ned would accept Robert's offer because he loves Robert so much. And isn't Smalljon too old for Sansa?

Mainly for an example of a Northern heir. Other ones are Harrion Karstark, while Daryn Hornwood is betrothed to Alys Karstark. 

I wonder why Rickard betrothed Alys to Daryn, since Robb presumably would be a better offer as the heir to his liege lord. Did Rickard get impatient?

I’ll give another two scenarios. One I was thinking of was with Tytos Lannister. In 252 AC, he has his daughter Genna betrothed to Walder Frey’s second son Emmon, which was a mistake since Walder is a bannerman of House Tully and Emmon a second son, so this gets House Lannister nothing and makes Tytos look like a doormat again. I mean, in the Riverlands alone, there’s better options in Hoster Tully (if he hadn’t married Minisa yet) and his younger brother the Blackfish.

The other would be Robb. Say Ned gets an offer from Highgarden with Mace (or Olenna) for Margaery to marry Robb, and one from the Mormonts for any of Maege Mormont’s daughters. Which would Ned choose?

[Reekazoid]

45 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Yes

Or to Karholm.

After snubbing Karstarks - i.e. no Robb./Alys - Ned might try to mend fences by shipping Hermion and Sansa.

Although the best match would be - after Domeric's death - Roose.

 Unfortunately for Sansa, this is actually completely correct. Roose is still in his prime , and is  in the top two of the most powerful Stark bannermen,thus influential and wealthy.

Ned has a lot to gain from fostering goodwill with the Dreadfort.

 

 However I think the royal betrothal is the best choice. As @shameeka noted, Ned  loves Robert but beyond that, I can't imagine any noble house  refusing a royal betrothal.  Putting aside the obvious potential to engender bad blood with the crown, we have to remember that political marriages are a means to an end, and if that end is the advancement of your house and the cultivation of political influence, marrying into the royal family seems  the best way.

 

 

[TMIFairy]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

The other would be Robb. Say Ned gets an offer from Highgarden with Mace (or Olenna) for Margaery to marry Robb, and one from the Mormonts for any of Maege Mormont’s daughters. Which would Ned choose?

No contest - Lyra or Jory Mormont (Dacy is Heir and Alyssane humps bears in the woods).  This shows that Starks reward loyal vassals. Gives prestige to House Mormont and utilises one of its five daughters, four of which are nubile.

Tyrell? Pffft! They are half a world away. Irrelevant.

 

As to Genna - yes, an absolute waste of a marital match. Had she married the Frey HEIR that'd had been a different matter. The best match for her would be ... Aerys. But you'd need to talk with Aegon not his fuckwit son.

[Angel Eyes]

45 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Yes

Or to Karholm.

After snubbing Karstarks - i.e. no Robb./Alys - Ned might try to mend fences by shipping Harrion and Sansa.

Although the best match would be - after Domeric's death - Roose.

If Domeric were alive I’m sure Roose would push for a match between him and Sansa. But why no Robb and Alys? They seem like they’d be a decent couple.

[TMIFairy]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

If Domeric were alive I’m sure Roose would push for a match between him and Sansa. But why no Robb and Alys? They seem like they’d be a decent couple.

Yes - if Domeric is alive then he'd be the "ideal man for Sansa".

No Robb/Alys - my perceptions here may be skewed by fanfics where Rickard always offers a match, is turned down and only then arranges the alliance with Hornwoods. I've seen it so many times that I've come to see it as canon

But Robb/Alys is an excellent match. It could "breed the Tully out of the Stark" and their kids would be dark haired, grey eyed and sulky

Or all would be blue eyed gingers

If we are on the subject - IMO Lyra/Jory, Alys, Meera, one of the Umber girls - all would be excellent brides for Robb. The only nubile canon Northern girl I'd be wary of is the Manderly one - even though she's a Northerner she's a Sevener. And two Sevener Lady Starks (unprecedented) in a row might not be well received.

 

 

 

[Reekazoid]

27 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’ll give another two scenarios. One I was thinking of was with Tytos Lannister. In 252 AC, he has his daughter Genna betrothed to Walder Frey’s second son Emmon, which was a mistake since Walder is a bannerman of House Tully and Emmon a second son, so this gets House Lannister nothing and makes Tytos look like a doormat again. I mean, in the Riverlands alone, there’s better options in Hoster Tully (if he hadn’t married Minisa yet) and his younger brother the Blackfish.

  This is a great example of a bad political marriage.  Tytos squandered very good political capital , to the net gain of house Frey, as Gemma seems to be a formidable woman.

Tytos actually was a doormat, in my opinion- a Toothless lion if ever there was one.   I'm no Lannister apologist but I can understand Tywin's drive to undo the damage his lord father caused.

[Lord of Oldstones]

Well Ned isn’t dumb like people pretend him to be.Off course he’ll accept Joeffery & Margaery for Robb as well if Tyrell put forward the proposal.The real question imo  is will Eddard put forward the match himself rather than simply accepting or rejecting offers offered to him? Idk

Even if loyal Mormont girls are like bastard their father is unknown neither is their “bear” husband.It’ll be big demotion for House Stark in prestige when even Karstarks aren’t suitable in Ned’s eyes.He clearly said in book that Sansa & Arya were ment to marry in south to southern lord.Hence,they had septa tutoring them in Faith of 7 and other arts.So Northern Lord is clearly No no for Sansa even if Joeffery wasn’t offered and Arya as well.

[Angel Eyes]

46 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

No contest - Lyra or Jory Mormont (Dacy is Heir and Alyssane humps bears in the woods).  This shows that Starks reward loyal vassals. Gives prestige to House Mormont and utilises one of its five daughters, four of which are nubile.

Tyrell? Pffft! They are half a world away. Irrelevant.

 

As to Genna - yes, an absolute waste of a marital match. Had she married the Frey HEIR that'd had been a different matter. The best match for her would be ... Aerys. But you'd need to talk with Aegon not his fuckwit son.

Where’s Jaehaerys? I thought Aerys was Aegon V’s grandson.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

52 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

The other would be Robb. Say Ned gets an offer from Highgarden with Mace (or Olenna) for Margaery to marry Robb, and one from the Mormonts for any of Maege Mormont’s daughters. Which would Ned choose?

I think he'd choose Mormonts offer. The disastrous marriage between Jorah & Lynesse is very fresh. And whilst things worked out fine for Cat moving north that recent fuck up is a real possibility and Ned isn't interested in southron politics. He doesn't need Highgardens graces as his BFF is the King. He only cares about the North and strengthening ties to Bear Island who are a island, so could be trouble given it is harder to ensure good behaviour on an island separated from the bulk of your lands. There is no male lord as Jorah has run away and he was doing things that he should not have. Ned would do well to bring the house into the Stark fold through a marriage, reinforcing loyalties and showing that Jorah's behaviour won't be taken out on the remaining family members and snuffing out any temptation to go rogue. We of course know Maege is loyal and has instilled that in her daughters too. But cold politics favour that match. And he knows a Mormont woman will be happy in the North and understand the politics and issues which effect the lands and people there. Ned got lucky in Cat that her father groomed her as heir for several years and she had a sensible head on her shoulders. Robb needs a wife who can support him fully and knows the northern ways. If Ned popps his cloggs Robb would be left with two southron women as his chief advisors/support if he wed Marge. The people might have accepted one southron Lady but two in a row might make some feel that House Stark has too much Andal blood these days and why not put a real northerner in WF. Roose would be a prime candidate for mutiny in that situation. Karstarks maybe too. 

[TMIFairy]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Where’s Jaehaerys? I thought Aerys was Aegon V’s grandson.

Sorry for lack of clarity - maybe I should stop posting ...

By fuckwit son I meant Jaehaerys, who forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry.

[Angel Eyes]

Just now, TMIFairy said:

Sorry for lack of clarity - maybe I should stop posting ...

By fuckwit son I meant Jaehaerys, who forced Aerys and Rhaella to marry.

True, Jaehaerys was a fuckwit. And a hypocrite. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think Alys rejected Robb IIRC. Doesn't she tell Jon that when her father took her to WF to scope Robb out as a potential match she much preferred him to his brother? Depending on how indulgent he was as a father he might have dropped Robb as a potential spouse because she didn't fancy him. Or if she mentioned preferring the bastard brother he maybe saw sense and realised a match there where she may be tempted to shag the bastard brother could be catastrophic. 

[TMIFairy]

12 minutes ago, Lordth said:

Well Ned isn’t dumb like people pretend him to be.Off course he’ll accept Joeffery & Margaery for Robb as well if Tyrell put forward the proposal.The real question imo  is will Eddard put forward the match himself rather than simply accepting or rejecting offers offered to him? Idk

Even if loyal Mormont girls are like bastard their father is unknown neither is their “bear” husband.It’ll be big demotion for House Stark in prestige when even Karstarks aren’t suitable in Ned’s eyes. He clearly said in book that Sansa & Arya were ment to marry in south to southern lord.Hence,they had septa tutoring them in Faith of 7 and other arts.So Northern Lord is clearly No no for Sansa even if Joeffery wasn’t offered and Arya as well.

Bolded statement no.1 contradicts statement no.2.

Not marrying his daughters in the North sends all sorts of bad messages - "The Ned is Vale raised - he may look like a Stark, but he is all Southron inside" - thus Ned was digging Robbs grave.

[TMIFairy]

Just now, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think Alys rejected Robb IIRC. Doesn't she tell Jon that when her father took her to WF to scope Robb out as a potential match she much preferred him to his brother? Depending on how indulgent he was as a father he might have dropped Robb as a potential spouse because she didn't fancy him. Or if she mentioned preferring the bastard brother he maybe saw sense and realised a match there where she may be tempted to shag the bastard brother could be catastrophic. 

Wasn't Alys 6 years old at that point?