In defense of Lady Lysa Arryn

[Varysblackfyre321]

On May 8, 2018 at 5:33 AM, Lord Varys said:

of Hoster's family after the man murdered her child in her womb and forced her to marry an old man she clearly didn't want to marry.

Jon Arryn was the warden of the vale. Quite honestly, more than a perfectly adequate match. Lysha's actual want is isn't relevant in the matter of arranging a marriage for her. The thing growing inside Lysha is a bastard. I don't but it seems bastards are generally going to be seen more separate to the family. And it's being, actually hurts the family as a whole given the humiliation house Tully would suffer and the total decrease of Lysha's value. It's "family duty honour" not "certain individual wants in the family, duty, honour".   I'm not saying what Hoster did was right(it was gross), but I can see how he could honestly say he did this in the interest of the family. 

[Angel Eyes]

49 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jon Arryn was the warden of the vale. Quite honestly, more than a perfectly adequate match. Lysha's actual want is isn't relevant in the matter of arranging a marriage for her. The thing growing inside Lysha is a bastard. I don't but it seems bastards are generally going to be seen more separate to the family. And it's being, actually hurts the family as a whole given the humiliation house Tully would suffer and the total decrease of Lysha's value. It's "family duty honour" not "certain individual wants in the family, duty, honour".   I'm not saying what Hoster did was right(it was gross), but I can see how he could honestly say he did this in the interest of the family. 

And that abortion nearly proved fatal for Lysa; as a result, the only child she had was the physically and mentally stunted Sweetrobin. If she died as a result of the abortion, he’d be a kinslayer.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jon Arryn was the warden of the vale. Quite honestly, more than a perfectly adequate match. Lysha's actual want is isn't relevant in the matter of arranging a marriage for her. The thing growing inside Lysha is a bastard. I don't but it seems bastards are generally going to be seen more separate to the family. And it's being, actually hurts the family as a whole given the humiliation house Tully would suffer and the total decrease of Lysha's value. It's "family duty honour" not "certain individual wants in the family, duty, honour".   I'm not saying what Hoster did was right(it was gross), but I can see how he could honestly say he did this in the interest of the family. 

Jon Arryn was an old man, a man who might not be able to father children on Lysa, nor a man to take care of her the remainder of her life. In that sense, he was a very poor match. Rank- and prestige-wise he was a good match, sure, but he was still a man Lysa did not want to marry. And she made that pretty clear.

Now, as to her child by Petyr Baelish:

That did not have to be born a bastard if they had arranged a hasty wedding - Rhaenyra and Daemon also, most likely, only wed after she was already pregnant with Aegon the Younger, and thus the future King Aegon III wasn't born a bastard. It could have been the same with Lysa's child.

Also keep in mind that Lysa was merely Hoster's second daughter. He had secured a very good match for Catelyn and would get very prestigious grandchildren by his Stark son-in-law. His second daughter could have married a lesser lordling like Littlefinger - especially if Hoster had thought about the talents of the youth for a time - or had listened to Lysa's advice who told everyone that the man was brilliant and would climb the ladder.

And it is not that the Tullys themselves are one of the most prestigious, ancient, or wealthy lineages of the Riverlands. In fact, they are as much social climbers as Littlefinger, although their rise from humble beginnings took much longer. Aegon the Conqueror had the sense to realize that Edmyn Tully could be useful - Hoster Tully didn't see the same in Littlefinger.

And as to 'Family, Duty, Honor' - the family part should refer to your actual family - meaning the people - not abstractions like the honor of the house, the wealth of the family, or its reputation. It should be about the family. And if Hoster Tully was about something it was not his family but personal ambition and a desire for advancement.

We see this not only in the Lysa thing but also in his quarrel with his brother Brynden.

[Clegane'sPup]

It takes a number of books to get to the LF & Lysa relationship. Lysa loved LF. Lysa became impregnated by LF. Lysa’s pop had someone give Lysa an abortive.  Lysa’s pop made Lysa part of the deal for his participation in Robert’s Rebellion.

Story wise I don’t know the extent of Lysa’s and LF’s interactions until book three (?).  Who is pulling Lysa’s strings? LF used her fear about the child being fostered.  Lysa poisoned her husband. Lysa sent the cryptic note to Cat.

LF kept his hands clean. Lysa got LF jobs in Gulltown and KL.  LF shoved his wife, Lysa, out of the moon door.

Now, LF is feeding Sansa the same way he fed Lysa. What I can’t figure out is---  what martin intends to do with LF and Sansa.

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On May 11, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jon Arryn was an old man, a man who might not be able to father children on Lysa, nor a man to take care of her the remainder of her life. 

Jon apparently had a daughter that was still-born..so probably not sterile, and Lysha will option of remarrying should Jon die  and an army of servents to cater to daily needs, and the houses of the vale to protect her. 

On May 11, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

In that sense, he was a very poor match. Rank- and prestige-wise he was a good match, sure, but he was still a man Lysa did not want to marry. And she made that pretty clear.

Lysha is a teenage girl; how many fathers of roper blood would  put that much stake in what they're children truly want in who they marry especially if it's specifilly their children's personal tastes? Especially when it's a daughter's personal taste?  Catelyn probably didn't feel thrilled at marrying Ned. Margary probably didn't want to continue to be married from Baratheon male to another.  

On May 11, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

Now, as to her child by Petyr Baelish:

 That did not have to be born a bastard if they had arranged a hasty wedding - Rhaenyra and Daemon also, most likely, only wed after she was already pregnant with Aegon the Younger, and thus the future King Aegon III wasn't born a bastard. It could have been the same with Lysa's child.



It's possible but unlikely since there really does seem to be no benefit for Littleginger to marry Lysha at the time especially when it'd require a priest and he would not put himself at such a risk for nothing.

On May 11, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

 Also keep in mind that Lysa was merely Hoster's second daughter. He had secured a very good match for Catelyn and would get very prestigious grandchildren by his Stark son-in-law. His second daughter could have married a lesser lordling like Littlefinger - especially if Hoster had thought about the talents of the youth for a time - or had listened to Lysa's advice who told everyone that the man was brilliant and would climb the ladder.

Well he wanted more; a girl from house Tully to give birth to the warden of the north, and a girl of house Tully to give birth to the warden of the vale. He could have allowed Lysha to marry below(to a reasonable degree) her rank and probably would cause no scrutiny. But he thought he could get a better price for her hand and thus followed that course. Yes those third or fourth children or so children get to have a lot more freedom to do what they want; because they're seen as not as valuable. What talents did Petyr show at the time? A affinity toward sarcasm? I really don't recall LF showing his merit at finance at this time. And Lysha was just a teenage girl. Why should hoster put any real weight to in her opinion on matters of import? 

On May 11, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

 And it is not that the Tullys themselves are one of the most prestigious, ancient, or wealthy lineages of the Riverlands. In fact, they are as much social climbers as Littlefinger, although their rise from humble beginnings took much longer. Aegon the Conqueror had the sense to realize that Edmyn Tully could be useful - Hoster Tully didn't see the same in Littlefinger.

The Tullys were the de-facto govenores of the Riverlands for centuries. For the recorded history of their existence of their house they have never not been one of the great houses and the allies of kings. Littleginger is the grandson of some foreighn mercenary who was blessed with a small and meager parcel of land . He's seen in the same way as Davos or Bran quite frankly-yes he's techility nobility but seen little better than a peasant. The Tullys probably had horses with more storied and noble lineages that go back longer than house balish. 

On May 11, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

 And as to 'Family, Duty, Honor' - the family part should refer to your actual family - meaning the people - not abstractions like the honor of the house, the wealth of the family, or its reputation. It should be about the family. And if Hoster Tully was about something it was not his family but personal ambition and a desire for advancement.

Why do you feel your interpretation of the house's motto was the feeling of the noblemen who coined them? Do you think the founders coined  it  with the thought even if means the Tullys become peasants that is preferable than of them sacrificing one member of their's  happiness to avoid such an outcome? An extreme example I know. I honestly don't know about Hoster. I suspect his reasons for his actions were more nuanced than pure selfishness-I can see him totally sincerely believing he's did what he did for Lysha and the family as a whole-at least in part. Like I can honestly see Tywin actually thinking he's doing Cersi and Tyrion favors when he arranges marriages to them they really don't want. Human beings are complex. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On May 11, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Angel Eyes said:

And that abortion nearly proved fatal for Lysa; as a result, the only child she had was the physically and mentally stunted Sweetrobin. If she died as a result of the abortion, he’d be a kinslayer.

Kinslayer? I feel that moniker could only be labeled upon someone who intentionally slew his or her kin in a way that isn't self-defense. I don't see how her first abortion carried over to Sweetrobin's problems.  I'm a little confused on how what your post has to do with the post of mine your quoting; I'm not really arguing Hoster was right to do what he did, just that he is not automatically betraying his House's motto by doing it. 

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 5/11/2018 at 5:19 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

It takes a number of books to get to the LF & Lysa relationship. Lysa loved LF. Lysa became impregnated by LF. Lysa’s pop had someone give Lysa an abortive.  Lysa’s pop made Lysa part of the deal for his participation in Robert’s Rebellion.

Story wise I don’t know the extent of Lysa’s and LF’s interactions until book three (?).  Who is pulling Lysa’s strings? LF used her fear about the child being fostered.  Lysa poisoned her husband. Lysa sent the cryptic note to Cat.

LF kept his hands clean. Lysa got LF jobs in Gulltown and KL.  LF shoved his wife, Lysa, out of the moon door.

Now, LF is feeding Sansa the same way he fed Lysa. What I can’t figure out is---  what martin intends to do with LF and Sansa.

 

 

Hopefully kill them both in the next book.  It will make for a great story if Sweetrobin somehow finds an ally and he turns the tables on them.  Make Sansa and LF fly, through the moon door.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jon apparently had a daughter that was still-born..so probably not sterile, and Lysha will option of remarrying should Jon die  and an army of servents to cater to daily needs, and the houses of the vale to protect her.

Still, the man went through two wives already, and might simply not live to father a son. Even if he did, chances were very high that the man would die before the son reached majority, causing all kinds of problems for both Lysa and Hoster's grandchild.

Not to mention that a childless widowed Lysa wouldn't exactly have been in a good position in the Vale if the Eyrie had gone to Harrold Hardyng, no?

Lysa would have had pretty much the same happy life as the unmarried daughter of Lord Hoster, or perhaps even as the wife of Lord Baelish living at Riverrun.

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Lysha is a teenage girl; how many fathers of roper blood would  put that much stake in what they're children truly want in who they marry especially if it's specifilly their children's personal tastes? Especially when it's a daughter's personal taste?  Catelyn probably didn't feel thrilled at marrying Ned. Margary probably didn't want to continue to be married from Baratheon male to another.  

Sure, and that's the reason why arranged marriages as such are a shitty practice. Parents should not presume to choose the spouses of their children, especially not if that means they will have to suffer a life of marital rape after the wedding.

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It's possible but unlikely since there really does seem to be no benefit for Littleginger to marry Lysha at the time especially when it'd require a priest and he would not put himself at such a risk for nothing.

They could have arranged that very easily. Lysa was very willing. All she needed was Hoster's permission. The pregnancy wasn't yet that far advanced when Hoster had the child aborted.

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Well he wanted more; a girl from house Tully to give birth to the warden of the north, and a girl of house Tully to give birth to the warden of the vale. He could have allowed Lysha to marry below(to a reasonable degree) her rank and probably would cause no scrutiny. But he thought he could get a better price for her hand and thus followed that course. Yes those third or fourth children or so children get to have a lot more freedom to do what they want; because they're seen as not as valuable. What talents did Petyr show at the time? A affinity toward sarcasm? I really don't recall LF showing his merit at finance at this time. And Lysha was just a teenage girl. Why should hoster put any real weight to in her opinion on matters of import? 

Hoster allowed Littlefinger to be fostered at Riverrun. That as such is a high honor and effectively encourages the children growing up together to form bonds. Ned bonded with Robert while they both were wards at the Eyrie, Littlefinger became friends with Edmure, Lysa fell in love with him, and Littlefinger with Catelyn.

Hoster was a fool if he couldn't foresee this kind of development, just as he was a fool when he had no good plan how to deal with that kind of thing when it didn't happen.

If you don't think a boy is worthy of the hand of your daughter you should allow him to get to know any of them - much less to live with them for years.

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Why do you feel your interpretation of the house's motto was the feeling of the noblemen who coined them? Do you think the founders coined  it  with the thought even if means the Tullys become peasants that is preferable than of them sacrificing one member of their's  happiness to avoid such an outcome? An extreme example I know. I honestly don't know about Hoster. I suspect his reasons for his actions were more nuanced than pure selfishness-I can see him totally sincerely believing he's did what he did for Lysha and the family as a whole-at least in part. Like I can honestly see Tywin actually thinking he's doing Cersi and Tyrion favors when he arranges marriages to them they really don't want. Human beings are complex. 

Tywin only cared for his family in an abstract sense - and Hoster seems to have been similar in this regard. And he doesn't really treat his brother and his daughters well. Cat and Lysa and Brynden should marry who the head of the house chooses for them but there is no such pressure on Edmure who isn't even betrothed by the time Hoster dies.

Hoster clearly knows that what he did to Lysa was very wrong - that's why he suffers so much when he dies, and wants to apologize to her so much. And it is completely understandable that Lysa no longer wants anything to do with that shitty family, including Catelyn, who never even realized what Hoster did to her - and whose arranged marriage turned out to be fine, unlike Lysa's. That would have given her another reason for resenting Catelyn. Which is understandable - if my father married me to some old dude while my sister got a reasonably attractive young man she actually grew to love and desire I'd really feel cheated by life and my family.

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/11/2018 at 5:19 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

It takes a number of books to get to the LF & Lysa relationship. Lysa loved LF. Lysa became impregnated by LF. Lysa’s pop had someone give Lysa an abortive.  Lysa’s pop made Lysa part of the deal for his participation in Robert’s Rebellion.

Story wise I don’t know the extent of Lysa’s and LF’s interactions until book three (?).  Who is pulling Lysa’s strings? LF used her fear about the child being fostered.  Lysa poisoned her husband. Lysa sent the cryptic note to Cat.

LF kept his hands clean. Lysa got LF jobs in Gulltown and KL.  LF shoved his wife, Lysa, out of the moon door.

Now, LF is feeding Sansa the same way he fed Lysa. What I can’t figure out is---  what martin intends to do with LF and Sansa.

 

 

That’s just what we need: another Lysa.

[Angel Eyes]

Tywin was actually a bit more lax than Hoster with who his family married. His brother Kevan married the sister of a knight.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tywin was actually a bit more lax than Hoster with who his family married. His brother Kevan married the sister of a knight.

The marriages of Tywin's siblings were arranged by Lord Tytos, not Tywin. And Kevan apparently fell in love with Dorna very early on, presumably causing his father to be very agreeable to the match.

Tytos may also have been the one to arrange Tywin's own marriage, in fact. He also chose Emmon Frey for Genna, after all.

[norwaywolf123]

On 5/7/2018 at 6:46 AM, Helena Kyle said:

I am going to defend Lysa's decision to poison her husband.  Maybe it's the feminists in me kicking in!  

1. Lysa fell in love with Petyr.  They have sex and she gets pregnant.  Hoster makes her abort.
2. Hoster sends Petyr away.
3. Lysa is forced to marry an old man with bad breath.
4. Lysa gives birth to a son.  A physically weak boy.
5. Lysa has no more children.  The one son is all she has.
6. Jon Arryn wants to foster his son away to a man who can be considered harsh.  Lysa would know this.
7. Lysa has no way to talk her husband out of his plan to send their sickly son away.

1. Part and parcel of a feudal life. She pays for her position in society by following the rules.

3. Jon Arryn was also forced or blackmailed by Hoster into marrying Lysa.

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I can understand why Lady Lysa would poison Jon Arryn.  She was desperate.  Lysa was a mother who was desperate to protect her son.  I don't think Robin would survive his fostering.  A mother knows her son and she knows he's not made for fighting.  

Jon Arryn probably knew his son too.

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Lysa gets criticized a lot for staying out of the War of the Five Kings even thought it's the smart thing to do.  The families who stay neutral for as long as they can are the ones who avoid taking unnecessary damage.  Case in point, Tywin Lannister and Walder Frey.  All Lysa wants to do is keep her son safe.  Keeping neutral and staying on that mountain was her best option.  It would have been complete stupidity to support the Starks against the Lannisters.  Eddard already admitted to treason and lost his life.  It wasn't her fault that the Lannisters are sacking the Riverlands.  That was Cat's fault.  

I agree that it was smart of Lysa to stay out. She should aleast try to get a overview of the situation bedore commiting. Also by declaring independance, Robb also destablised the Vale and if she joined him would put her into the cross fires.

Also the Starks have a duty to protect Lysa and Robert Arryn. Kidnapping Tyrion was Catelyn decision and it risked putting Lysa and Robert Arryn in danger.

Still Lysa was responsible for sending that letter to her sister. A letter that lead to the WotFK.

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Lysa gave Tyrion his trial and let him go when he won.  Trial by combat is complete stupidity.  It's nothing more than giving the lord a way to settle disputes without actually having to pass judgment.  Nevertheless, it was fair and Lysa let an enemy go free because he won the trial.  Would Cersei do the same?  Would Stannis be so fair?  

Fair point.

[zandru]

On 5/13/2018 at 12:57 AM, Only 89 selfies today said:

It will make for a great story if Sweetrobin somehow finds an ally and he turns the tables on them.  Make Sansa and LF fly, through the moon door.

Gonna have to wait for spring, maybe even the next summer, for that. The Eyrie and its Moon Door are inaccessible through the winter. And this next winter looks to be one for the record books.