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Euron III Greyjoy

The role of Jon Snow in TWoW

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58 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

That definitely makes sense. I just remember Beric saying he loses a piece of himself each time, so maybe a part of Jon is lost? Like emotion for something or w/e. But that definitely makes sense. 

Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely agree with you that Jon is going to be changed in some way, but I feel like its going to be a mixture of:

A.) Getting stabbed to death by his own men, these men that he has considered his brothers for the past 2-3 years. Just imagine the trust issues he's going to have after this. 

B.) Being stuck inside Ghost for so long is going to warp is personality, making him more wolf like. The entire prologue for ADwD was Varamyr going over the rules and effects of skinchanging, and I feel like that was to give us insight into what both Jon and Bran are going to go through in TWoW. 

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On 5/16/2018 at 2:25 PM, EloImFizzy said:

I have seen numerous topics discussing how Jon will come back in TWoW, but there are very few theorizing what he will do once he comes back. Will he stick to his original plan of attacking Winterfell to save Arya? Will he kill his betrayers and stay at the wall?

I imagine by the time he either gets resurrected or recovers that Jeyne Poole will have already reached the wall and told him that Arya isn't really at Winterfell, and that Stannis is still alive. So would he still see reason to go to Winterfell? There are alot of Northern Lords either in, or around Winterfell at the moment, and once won back from House Bolton the Lords will probably go to Winterfell to discuss the next plan of action. This would be a good opportunity for Jon to go to Winterfell and explain the situation of the Others returning. 

Please discuss your theories, I enjoy reading them all. =)

I think by the time jon is resurrected, (F)Arya will have already left for Braavos with Justin Massey.

After jon is resurrected i expect he will punish the mutineers (if they are still alive). He will resign the NW, leaving Edd in command.
Jon will want to fight the Boltons, so he will have to raise a wildling army. Tormounds people will join him (recall that line from the show "they look at you as if you were a god", having jon back from the dead will certainly give him an aura). By this time, the weeper will have taken over the shadow tower. I think Jon will fight him in single combat, and take over his raiders. Then he will go to East Watch by the sea, and the giants there will join him. Maybe he will meet with Davos, Rickon and a skagossian raiders and then march south to meet Ramsay Bolton.

Stannis is an issue... 
The gardener aproach means the author wrote early on foreshadowing and hints of future important plotpoints, and then he works around the events to make them happen.  George probably wants Stannis to sacrifice Shireen (that means he must survive his war against the boltons to rejoin Melisandre and shireen), while at the same time have Jon become KiTN... theres also some hintsof the future Battle of the bastards in the long lake.
whats the point in having a battle of the bastards if Stannis will win the battle of ice? How can George consolidate both things? 

well, one way is to have Ramsay march north BEFORE Stannis can take winterfell. Stannis wins the battle of ice, sends the karstakars and manderlys with his sword to Winterfell. Ramsay writes the pink letter and quickly rides north. Stannis has no horse left, if Ramsay leaves before stannis can take winterfell only jon can stop him before he arrives CB.

either way, eventually george will want to bring out that seed he planted back in ASOS, with Robbs Will and have Jon crowned KiTN, so stannis will keep being a nuisance there.
Some people speculated that the northern lords will side with Jon, and Stannis will have no choice but to go back to the Wall (where he expects justin massey to return with a sellsword army) where he will rejoin Melisandre and shireen.
either way its complicated. I expect the northern plot is the one thats bringing George the worst headaches.

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6 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

I think by the time jon is resurrected, (F)Arya will have already left for Braavos with Justin Massey.

After jon is resurrected i expect he will punish the mutineers (if they are still alive). He will resign the NW, leaving Edd in command.
Jon will want to fight the Boltons, so he will have to raise a wildling army. Tormounds people will join him (recall that line from the show "they look at you as if you were a god", having jon back from the dead will certainly give him an aura). By this time, the weeper will have taken over the shadow tower. I think Jon will fight him in single combat, and take over his raiders. Then he will go to East Watch by the sea, and the giants there will join him. Maybe he will meet with Davos, Rickon and a skagossian raiders and then march south to meet Ramsay Bolton.

Stannis is an issue... 
The gardener aproach means the author wrote early on foreshadowing and hints of future important plotpoints, and then he works around the events to make them happen.  George probably wants Stannis to sacrifice Shireen (that means he must survive his war against the boltons to rejoin Melisandre and shireen), while at the same time have Jon become KiTN... theres also some hintsof the future Battle of the bastards in the long lake.
whats the point in having a battle of the bastards if Stannis will win the battle of ice? How can George consolidate both things? 

well, one way is to have Ramsay march north BEFORE Stannis can take winterfell. Stannis wins the battle of ice, sends the karstakars and manderlys with his sword to Winterfell. Ramsay writes the pink letter and quickly rides north. Stannis has no horse left, if Ramsay leaves before stannis can take winterfell only jon can stop him before he arrives CB.

either way, eventually george will want to bring out that seed he planted back in ASOS, with Robbs Will and have Jon crowned KiTN, so stannis will keep being a nuisance there.
Some people speculated that the northern lords will side with Jon, and Stannis will have no choice but to go back to the Wall (where he expects justin massey to return with a sellsword army) where he will rejoin Melisandre and shireen.
either way its complicated. I expect the northern plot is the one thats bringing George the worst headaches.

I think we see the end of Stannis soon. I don't see how his character can move on really. I wouldn't be surprised if he looses to Ramsey and he is basically done for. Then leaving the way for Jon to be KiTN and have a battle of the bastards like thing. 

If Stannis wins, then he has to eventually move out of the way for Jon and I don't see how you write that without doing a whole new battle and taking up a lot of time.

I think Mel's vision of the grey girl on the dying horse is Shireen showing that Stannis is going down soon, which is sad.

Also, I know that GRRM told D&D about burning Shireen but I don't see it happening in the books. I can see her getting burned by someone else, not Stannis. You can all call me an idiot if/when it happens in TWOW. 

But as far as Jon, I agree with Lord to fat to sit a horse above me. Jon goes north and teams up with some wildlings eventually coming at Ramsey from north, the true north. I still consider the wildlings more of his people then anyone in Westeros. (Also why I believe the Jon and Dany relationship will never happen in the books, among a slew of other reasons.)

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2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

 

Also, I know that GRRM told D&D about burning Shireen but I don't see it happening in the books. I can see her getting burned by someone else, not Stannis. You can all call me an idiot if/when it happens in TWOW. 

i suppose this can help get stannis out of Jons way easily, but i dont like it. See, it must be stannis that burns his own daughter, its him who must make that sacrifice for it to be charged emotionally.

If Melisandre does it in the wall, while stannis is south in winterfell, it means nothing.

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On 5/16/2018 at 1:25 PM, EloImFizzy said:

I have seen numerous topics discussing how Jon will come back in TWoW, but there are very few theorizing what he will do once he comes back. Will he stick to his original plan of attacking Winterfell to save Arya? Will he kill his betrayers and stay at the wall?

I imagine by the time he either gets resurrected or recovers that Jeyne Poole will have already reached the wall and told him that Arya isn't really at Winterfell, and that Stannis is still alive. So would he still see reason to go to Winterfell? There are alot of Northern Lords either in, or around Winterfell at the moment, and once won back from House Bolton the Lords will probably go to Winterfell to discuss the next plan of action. This would be a good opportunity for Jon to go to Winterfell and explain the situation of the Others returning. 

Please discuss your theories, I enjoy reading them all. =)

I really want Jon to die from his wounds and stay dead.  The story for me will be all the better for it.  Bringing him back after all he has done to betray the watch and break his vows is not right.  Not to mention the fact that it will make death less serious.  Bringing Jon back just makes the plot look silly.  

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49 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

i suppose this can help get stannis out of Jons way easily, but i dont like it. See, it must be stannis that burns his own daughter, its him who must make that sacrifice for it to be charged emotionally.

If Melisandre does it in the wall, while stannis is south in winterfell, it means nothing.

That does make sense. It's just hard for me to see Stannis change so fast from loving his daughter to burning her. I mean, it's possible. It's just hard for me to believe right now. Maybe I am in denial... 

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I really want Jon to die from his wounds and stay dead.  The story for me will be all the better for it.  Bringing him back after all he has done to betray the watch and break his vows is not right.  Not to mention the fact that it will make death less serious.  Bringing Jon back just makes the plot look silly.  

I agree 100%, unfortunately I don't think that will happen. Or just have Jon live in his Wolf forever and one of the other Starks taking it in or something. I would be fine with that. I don't really care for undead Cat and I hope she serves a very special purpose. But I hate the whole, bringing someone back from the dead, that fantasy books like to do. What is dead, should stay dead.

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20 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

That does make sense. It's just hard for me to see Stannis change so fast from loving his daughter to burning her. I mean, it's possible. It's just hard for me to believe right now. Maybe I am in denial... 

 

Stannis ground his teeth again. “I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady.”

Melisandre said, “Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart’s blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . .”

 

I would say, the only reason Stannis would sacrifice his daughter is to fight the others (the only enemy that matters in his own words) in a desperate situation.
Some have speculated that his arc ends in winterfell under siege by the dead, starving,...Then, in desperation, he gives his daughter to the flames to hatch a Vermaxes dragon egg and save the living.

when it fails, he commits suicide.

But again, if so, where is Jon Snow, and is he King in the North?

i suppose the scenario above could work as well in the night fort, with the Others at the Wall.

Edited by LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

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21 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

That does make sense. It's just hard for me to see Stannis change so fast from loving his daughter to burning her. I mean, it's possible. It's just hard for me to believe right now. Maybe I am in denial... 

I agree 100%, unfortunately I don't think that will happen. Or just have Jon live in his Wolf forever and one of the other Starks taking it in or something. I would be fine with that. I don't really care for undead Cat and I hope she serves a very special purpose. But I hate the whole, bringing someone back from the dead, that fantasy books like to do. What is dead, should stay dead.

And you are right.  I am just expressing an opinion.  A lot of effort went into the rules of skin changing for a reason.  I am certain of it.  He will live a second life as a wolf.

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2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I really want Jon to die from his wounds and stay dead.  The story for me will be all the better for it.  Bringing him back after all he has done to betray the watch and break his vows is not right.  Not to mention the fact that it will make death less serious.  Bringing Jon back just makes the plot look silly.  

I respect your opinion. I personally think it would be silly and anticlimactic if Jon just stayed dead. Lets be honest here, no matter what either of us want, no matter if he's still alive or dead, he will be coming back, he's the only one focused on stopping the Others whilst everyone else is busy bickering over a chair. 

The only time I would really say Jon has betrayed the Nights Watch, I'm not going to include bedding Ygritte since pretty much everyone goes to the Moles Town brothel anyway, is when he was planning on marching down to Winterfell to kill Ramsay with an army of Wildlings, and I loved that because it showed that at the end of the day he's just a 17 year old boy who wants to save his sister, there are no morally white characters in this series which is what this story is all about. 

The rest of the stuff he has done has been for the Nights Watch.

- Getting a loan from the Iron Bank to build Glass Houses for food. 

- Making peace with the Wildlings so they can help fight the true enemy, instead of becoming wights and joining their army, whilst also taking hostages so they wont cause any trouble.

- Marrying Alys Karstark and Sigorn to bring the Northerners and Wildlings together. 

- Sending Sam to Oldtown to look for any information regarding the Others.

- Helping Stannis to win the North, since he is the only person besides him who is actually trying to stop the Others. 

- Locking wights in the ice cells so they can experiment on them. 

Sure some of his approaches are radical, but everything he has done is to save the Nights Watch, and prepare to fight the Others. Have you noticed the only ones against him are people like Bowen Marsh, Alliser Thorne, Othell Yarwyck, and Septon Cellador. Basically old men too set in their ways to be of any use, that's why it was great to have a young Lord Commander who could bring in these fresh new ideas. Have you also noticed that when these people come complaining to him about one of his plans, they never actually bring him an alternative approach, they just moan and groan and then leave. 

But hey, this is just me throwing in my two cents on the matter. 

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For all those saying Jon will die and warg into Ghost for some time, perhaps much of the book, until Mel revives him, what happens to his body in the meantime? 

Step 1 after his death would be to burn his body, so...

- Does someone preserve it in an ice cell for a while instead of burning it?

- Do they unsuccessfully burn it?

- Do they burn it and he comes back in someone else's body?

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On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 3:54 PM, Valyrian Lance said:

For all those saying Jon will die and warg into Ghost for some time, perhaps much of the book, until Mel revives him, what happens to his body in the meantime? 

Step 1 after his death would be to burn his body, so...

- Does someone preserve it in an ice cell for a while instead of burning it?

- Do they unsuccessfully burn it?

- Do they burn it and he comes back in someone else's body?

It goes into the ice cell as you say, they must be foreshadowing something, and there is Brans dream all the way back in AGOT where he see's Jons body growing cold on a  bed of ice, plus the line by Aemon that ice preserves.  A lot of clues to add up to nothing if it doesn't happen.

Edited by aryagonnakill#2

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On 7/18/2018 at 4:54 PM, Valyrian Lance said:

For all those saying Jon will die and warg into Ghost for some time, perhaps much of the book, until Mel revives him, what happens to his body in the meantime? 

Step 1 after his death would be to burn his body, so...

- Does someone preserve it in an ice cell for a while instead of burning it?

- Do they unsuccessfully burn it?

- Do they burn it and he comes back in someone else's body?

 

1) yes, the mutineers will want to preserve it for when Ramsay arrives. To show that they punished the traitor.
2) no
3) no, but theres a theory that after jons murder, theres going to be fighting between Queens men/wildlings vs the mutineers. After the first party wins, theres going to be a typical NW funeral "and now his watch is over" and so on, and Melisandre will perform the Last kiss on the dead,... and jon will miraculously rise. 

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On 6/24/2018 at 9:14 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

I have to agree with @crlovel on this.

We've had Beric (a minor character) and Catelyn (a major character) come back from the dead. I really don't think we need a 3rd character 'cheating death' as it were.

Jon messed up big time, and when people mess up in this series, they die. Allowing Jon to make a mistake with so little consequence makes it feel as though those characters that have survived this long are basically safe, which makes the whole series less compelled.

So yeah, just let a dead man die, for crying out loud.

I agree, but from a narrative point of view, characters die when their arcs are over and I doubt very much Jon's is.  In fact I think his death frees his from his vows, now that he knows about the Others, wildlings, etc to bring him full blown into a leadership role.

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On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 11:54 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree, but from a narrative point of view, characters die when their arcs are over and I doubt very much Jon's is.  In fact I think his death frees his from his vows, now that he knows about the Others, wildlings, etc to bring him full blown into a leadership role.

While I suspect you're right, that would disappoint me.

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I don't think it will be an easy quest for him to return to his body. Death is on walk on Sunday afternoon.

It should be long and hard and completely change his attitude on life, agenda, goals, feelings, interest, eating habits, etc.

He is not prepared to spend 24/7 in Ghost, considering that he is a skinchanger in denial. The wolf will get to him in ways it never got to Bran. And there will be a toll on his body, too, not just some new fancy scars.

And there is no way to predict how long the boy is going to spend in the wolf. My guess is that George didn't kill him to bring him back three days later.

Narratively there is no chance that Jon is going to involve himself in the Bolton situation as it is at Winterfell right now. If George wanted to do that, he wouldn't have killed Jon now but rather at Winterfell, to start new chapter/arc for him there, after that superficial and irrelevant Bolton plot is finally over. These people are neither the true enemies nor the enemies Jon Snow should concern himself with.

Which is why this goes to Stannis and Asha and (especially) Theon. If somebody is going to kill Ramsay, it is going to be his Reek. Jon has literally nothing to do with Ramsay.

Vice versa, the assassination also makes no sense if everything goes back to normal with Jon in charge. Why kill him if killing him is going to have no effect on anything - not on Jon Snow himself, not on the political situation at the Wall, not on who is in charge. Jon is not going to be Gandalf the White. Rather Gandalf the Black.

One hopes Jon concerns himself with things that actually do matter after his return - meaning the Others, his own parentage, prophecy, etc. If Stannis were to die at Winterfell everything should be over. That would also entail, most likely, a crushing defeat for Stannis' men, and subsequently the end of an anti-Bolton movement in the North.

The wildlings are never going to win battles against Northmen in pitched battles or successful storm/besiege castles.

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On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:26 AM, kissdbyfire said:

@Giant Ice Spider, I obviously missed part of the convo... how did Jon mess up big time? 

Jon failed to persuade Marsh about anything: the wildlings, for one, but mostly he failed to persuade Marsh he was competent. If he did even one thing Marsh would have done, or at least showed he understood and respected Marsh's reasoning, he might well be alive.

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On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:54 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

I agree, but from a narrative point of view, characters die when their arcs are over and I doubt very much Jon's is.  In fact I think his death frees his from his vows, now that he knows about the Others, wildlings, etc to bring him full blown into a leadership role.

True.

But there is precedent for exceptions. Catelyn may not be a POV anymore but her arc continues.

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16 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Jon failed to persuade Marsh about anything: the wildlings, for one, but mostly he failed to persuade Marsh he was competent. If he did even one thing Marsh would have done, or at least showed he understood and respected Marsh's reasoning, he might well be alive.

For me the problem here is that Bowen "let them die" Marsh was dead wrong about everything. To each their own. 

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On 8/13/2018 at 4:02 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

True.

But there is precedent for exceptions. Catelyn may not be a POV anymore but her arc continues.

Yes, but those are characters whose arcs continue after death in a different way, my problem with this for Jon in a clear cut way is that I think we have had enough undeads as it is but could be wrong...

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