Angel Eyes Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 How would you match up various sons and daughters of Great Houses and bannermen in the five years before the Tourney at Harrenhal? There were at least four Great Houses linked by betrothal or marriage during that time: Prince Rhaegar Targaryen married Elia Martell, Brandon Stark was betrothed to Catelyn Tully, Robert Baratheon was betrothed to Lyanna Stark, and Lysa Tully was betrothed to Jaime Lannister (at least until Cersei threw an incestuous white cloak into the mix). How would they work in they went through? If they don’t, how would you change them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 If I'm Aerys II I'm vetoing all those marriages and putting a law in place that prohibits the children of Lord Paramounts and Wardens from marrying other children of Lord Paramounts and Wardens. In fact I'm putting in a law that says all marriages of future heirs of Great Houses have to be approved by the Crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: If I'm Aerys II I'm vetoing all those marriages and putting a law in place that prohibits the children of Lord Paramounts and Wardens from marrying other children of Lord Paramounts and Wardens. In fact I'm putting in a law that says all marriages of future heirs of Great Houses have to be approved by the Crown. Requiring permission from the Crown is too far in treading on people’s toes, but forbidding great houses from merging is a good one. But what counts as a great house? The Hightowers aren’t lords paramount of anything but they’re as rich as the Lannisters and command more swords than the Iron Islands (arguably). And what about the Freys or the Royces? They command large numbers of troops and influence in their respective regions. Where’s the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: How would you match up various sons and daughters of Great Houses and bannermen in the five years before the Tourney at Harrenhal? With what goal in mind, lasting peace, a stronger/weaker rebellion or just for fun? Anyway here is Tywin Lannister with operation "Make for damn sure Tyrion doesn't get the Rock": Push to make sure the Jaime-Lysa match goes through and try to get Cersei engaged to Willas Tyrell. Both of them come from fertile families and belong to Great Houses so that is nice. If Robert's Rebellion happens somewhat similar to the books then it puts Tywin in an awkward position if the Tyrells insists on remaining Targ loyalists. Reasonably Tywin should side with the rebels when Hoster does without Jaime as a King's Guard/hostage and that would likely push Tyrells to remain neutral/join the overwhelming forces of the rebels. ------------------------ 6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: If I'm Aerys II I'm vetoing all those marriages and putting a law in place that prohibits the children of Lord Paramounts and Wardens from marrying other children of Lord Paramounts and Wardens. Sure that might be a good move or it could just spurr on a earlier rebelion. Seems like a good way to piss off all your Lords Paramount. 6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: In fact I'm putting in a law that says all marriages of future heirs of Great Houses have to be approved by the Crown. Would Aerys really have the political and military clout to enforce this on all the Great Houses? Trampling noble's privileges is a good way to ferment rebellion. -------------------------- 3 hours ago, Canon Claude said: but forbidding great houses from merging is a good one. The problem is that two cleaver great houses could use a third lesser house as a proxy. No Stark-Tully match but functionally a Stark-Frey and Frey-Tully chain pact would work. Forbidding those kinds of proxypacts would be tricky in many ways. If your Lord Paramount can't freely marry their own bannermen (because of some marriage between the lesser house and another Great HOuse in the past) to ensure loyalty you are weakening their ability to fulfill their roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 23 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said: With what goal in mind, lasting peace, a stronger/weaker rebellion or just for fun? Anyway here is Tywin Lannister with operation "Make for damn sure Tyrion doesn't get the Rock": Push to make sure the Jaime-Lysa match goes through and try to get Cersei engaged to Willas Tyrell. Both of them come from fertile families and belong to Great Houses so that is nice. If Robert's Rebellion happens somewhat similar to the books then it puts Tywin in an awkward position if the Tyrells insists on remaining Targ loyalists. Reasonably Tywin should side with the rebels when Hoster does without Jaime as a King's Guard/hostage and that would likely push Tyrells to remain neutral/join the overwhelming forces of the rebels. ------------------------ Sure that might be a good move or it could just spurr on a earlier rebelion. Seems like a good way to piss off all your Lords Paramount. Would Aerys really have the political and military clout to enforce this on all the Great Houses? Trampling noble's privileges is a good way to ferment rebellion. -------------------------- The problem is that two cleaver great houses could use a third lesser house as a proxy. No Stark-Tully match but functionally a Stark-Frey and Frey-Tully chain pact would work. Forbidding those kinds of proxypacts would be tricky in many ways. If your Lord Paramount can't freely marry their own bannermen (because of some marriage between the lesser house and another Great HOuse in the past) to ensure loyalty you are weakening their ability to fulfill their roles. For fun. And compatibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 12 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: If I'm Aerys II I'm vetoing all those marriages and putting a law in place that prohibits the children of Lord Paramounts and Wardens from marrying other children of Lord Paramounts and Wardens. In fact I'm putting in a law that says all marriages of future heirs of Great Houses have to be approved by the Crown. The monarch can set up matches. Queen Rhaenys did just that, if I recall. The issue facing King Aerys was the lack of dragons. People like Robert no longer wanted to do as they were told. Force and the willingness to use force are necessary to keep somebody like Robert in line. Assuming the lack of dragons and stubborn underlings. What can the Targaryens do? Go back farther in time and marry Rhaegar to Cersei. This creates a strong alliance between Dragon and Lion. This can be further strengthened if child Viserys was promised to a future Tyrell daughter. This should prevent Rickard and Robert from getting too far in their conspiracy. A secret hit on Rickard, Brandon, and Robert can be ordered if they persist on building their alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Assuming the lack of dragons and stubborn underlings. What can the Targaryens do? Go back farther in time and marry Rhaegar to Cersei. This creates a strong alliance between Dragon and Lion. This can be further strengthened if child Viserys was promised to a future Tyrell daughter. This should prevent Rickard and Robert from getting too far in their conspiracy. A secret hit on Rickard, Brandon, and Robert can be ordered if they persist on building their alliance. Was there anything? This wasn’t how I wanted the thread to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pukisbaisals Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 16 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Lysa Tully was betrothed to Jaime Lannister Jaime would sail to ruins of Valyria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 13, 2018 Author Share Posted June 13, 2018 What I wanted for this thread was “How would you set up different marriages in the years before Robert’s Rebellion?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crona Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: What I wanted for this thread was “How would you set up different marriages in the years before Robert’s Rebellion?” Did Tywin know that Aerys was looking for a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar when Oberyn and Elia came to CR? If he did, I would have bethroned Jaime and Elia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pukisbaisals Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: What I wanted for this thread was “How would you set up different marriages in the years before Robert’s Rebellion?” Brandon Stark and someone from mighty banermen, lady Barbrey or some Manderly. Lyanna Stark and someone from northmen or Blackwood or Royce. Catelyn Tully and Robert Baratheon Lysa Tully and Ned Stark or Stanis Ashara Dayne and Rhaegar Jaime and Elia, Cersei and Oberyn. I always wondered why princess of Dorne wanted to join House Lannister and house Martell in double marriage. For political purposes one marriage would be enough. What was she after? And Jaime was her first choice to Elia, not Rhaegar. I also think that is safer to betroth heir to vassal house than to other great house. Marriages between paramount houses work well for temporary alliances, but in long run they can cause conflicts and one dynasty can overwhelm the other. And local lords might be not willing to accept overlord from other region. For example, Cersei's marriage to Robert. Even without incest scandal inheritance of Storm End would be problematic. Stannis and Renly would probably supported by stormlanders and Cersei's children - by Lannisters. Lysa Tully and John Arryn. If John had younger brother Lysa would need all support of Riverlands. Even now I think most of Vale houses would choose Harry the heir over Sweetrobin. And I really doubt if northemen could ever accept Tyrion as their overlord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 I would actually try Brandon and Barbrey Ryswell, and have Ned marry Catelyn. Though how pissed would Hoster Tully be?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 43 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Though how pissed would Hoster Tully be?... Plenty pissed an rightly so. Ned stands to inherit nothing at all so what would the benefit of that match be to Hoster and House Tully? Ned might at best get some frozen holdfast the wild of the North, not a great "return on investment". Also it would create a pretty bad president. "Let your daughter sleep with your lord's heir while you are warding him and you'll get a marriage out of it." isn't a great policy in a feudal society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said: Plenty pissed an rightly so. Ned stands to inherit nothing at all so what would the benefit of that match be to Hoster and House Tully? Ned might at best get some frozen holdfast the wild of the North, not a great "return on investment". Also it would create a pretty bad president. "Let your daughter sleep with your lord's heir while you are warding him and you'll get a marriage out of it." isn't a great policy in a feudal society. I had assumed that Lord Ryswell would be more forceful with wanting a match for his deflowered daughter. Plus, Brandon and Catelyn isn’t a great match anyways, given that Brandon is just as philandering as Robert Baratheon. Considering what Catelyn’s Lannister counterpart (Cersei) did to her own philandering husband... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ylath's Snout Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Just now, Angel Eyes said: I had assumed that Lord Ryswell would be more forceful with wanting a match for his deflowered daughter. Sure but that doesn't mean a Ned-Cat match makes any sense while Brandon still lives, less so if he is married with kids on the way. 2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Plus, Brandon and Catelyn isn’t a great match anyways, given that Brandon is just as philandering as Robert Baratheon. Cat seems much more bothered by Jon living at Winterfell than the cheating itself. If Brandon had some tact with his sleeping around he and Cat could have a functional if strained marriage. The Wild Wolf wouldn't be king after all so he'd have more limitations on what he could do. Comparing anyone to number one husbando Ned seems a bit unfair. 8 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Considering what Catelyn’s Lannister counterpart (Cersei) did to her own philandering husband... Sure but that seemed to have been more motivated by the risk of Cersei's brotherfucking getting revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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