No Rebellion, Rheagar married with Elia, Robert with Lyana and Brandon with Cat

[Lee-Sensei]

On 6/15/2018 at 1:45 AM, Kandrax said:

To whom would Cersei be married? Willas or Edmure?

IIRC he was waiting for Viserys.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 6/15/2018 at 10:45 AM, Kandrax said:

To whom would Cersei be married? Willas or Edmure?

Jon Arryn

[kissdbyfire]

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Very true. Unfortunately, the fact that Elia has to respond to Aerys's summons also means she can be brought back to King's Landing for other purposes.

Indeed. 

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Also unfortunately, we don't know who was the maester on Dragonstone. We only know that Cressen comes there with Stannis.My point is less that Pycelle is necessary to push a sickly Elia into the grave, but that such a scheme would fit into Tywin's plans for Cersei. Or at least the plans he once had.

Agree. It would fit into Tywin's plans and his MO. 

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

To the OP's question, the answer is there are lots of candidates, but the time in we are talking about is afterTywin breaks with Aerys and resigns his office as Hand over Jaime's appointment to the Kingsguard. Correct me if I'm wrong here @Kandrax. It likely eliminates the possibility of a Cersei marriage with Rhaegar or Viserys.

I don't see Tywin going along w/ Viserys. Especially if we are talking post Jaime joining the KG. His pride would never allow him to agree to a match w/ what he'd see as a consolation prize of sorts. 

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The fact Tywin had gone so far in arranging a marriage between Jaime and Lysa also is a declaration of sorts of where his loyalties lay.

This s an interesting detail, and memory fails me at the mo. Did the Jaime/Lysa thing happened before or after Aerys told Tywin Cersei wasn't good enough for Rhaegar? 

To my own bold above ^... That's why I don't believe Tywin would accept a match w/ Viserys. Aerys told him just that, that Cersei wasn't good enough. He did what he did to the Reynes and Tarbecks for lesser offences. 

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The question becomes, is Aerys's gambit with Jaime and his holding of him as a de facto hostage stop Tywin from marrying Cersei into the STAB alliance? If not, I think Elbert Arryn the best candidate, but the thought of a Ned/Cersei or a Stannis/Cersei marriage makes me cringe just thinking about it. My estimation of Tywin tells me he would do just about anything to get payback against Aerys. 

Completely agree.

And I have to say, I would have liked to read about Stannis and Cersei as a couple!

 

[Bael's Bastard]

On 6/15/2018 at 4:18 PM, punzerknacker said:

Maybe he was hoping Rhaegar would set Elia aside in favour of Cersei, because she couldn't give him another child, or hoped Elia would die of some sickness. Waiting for Viserys to come of age would have taken too long I think. He is 10 years younger than Cersei, so when he's 16 she would already be 26…

Willas might have been the best option, as the age gap is somewhat smaller (though we don't know his exact birth year I think).

Cersei was only 9 or 10 when Tywin intended to betroth her to Rhaegar Targaryen in 276, and Tommen was only 8 or 9 when wed to Margaerys Tyrell. A betrothal could have been made for Viserys at any time, and Viserys could wed Cersei before he was 16.

As for Willas, I don't get the impression he was much, if at all, older than Viserys. Olenna remarks to Sansa that he is a bit old for her, and Sansa thinks of Willas being twice her age.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:39 AM, PrinceHenryris said:

I think we can safely rule out Ned, Stannis or any other second son.  Remember, how irate a young Tywin was when Tytos agreed to marry Genna to Emmon Frey?  I doubt Tywin mellowed with age on his idea of a proper marriage for a Lannister of Casterly Rock.

We know he hoped to marry Cersei to Rhaeghar, but failing that, would Tywin prefer a marriage to Visery even though he's the second son, or would he want his daughter to marry a Great Lord or one of his own more powerful bannermen or their heir?

If Tywin goes outside the Westerlands or the Royal Family, that would leave Edmure Tully, Wyllis Tyrell,  or Jon or Elbert Arryn.

If I had to guess, I'd go with Edmure given the attempt to wed Jaime to Lyssa.

Emmon Frey was the second son of a bannerman of Lord Tully. By the time Rhaegar was wed to Elia, Eddard was behind only Lord Rickard and Brandon in the North, Stannis was behind only Lord Robert in the Storm Lands, and Prince Viserys was behind only King Aerys and Prince Rhaegar (and eventually his son Prince Aegon) over the Seven Kingdoms. These would all be higher matches for Cersei than marrying her off to a son of one of his own bannerman, or a son of someone else's bannerman, whether a second son or a first.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 6/16/2018 at 6:48 AM, Kandrax said:

Knowing Tywin, i ruled out second sons.

Tywin flipped out over his father marrying his sister to the second son of a bannerman of House Tully. The second son of a Frey is not comparable to the second son of a Lord of the North, the brother of a Lord of the Storm Lands with no legitimate son, or the second son of a king. Tywin's known plans for Cersei were certainly as high as it gets, coveting the eldest son/heir of King Aerys, but in a hypothetical where he accepted that would never happen, it is not inconceivable that he would set his sights on Viserys. And in the event that he turned against the idea of marrying with the Targs, something as of yet without basis, I see no reason why he would be inherently against marrying his daughter to the second son of one of the great houses just because they were second sons. But I really think he clung to the idea of a Targ marriage to pretty close to the end. Had he received a message from the king/prince after the Battle of the Bells (which I don't believe he ever received), I think there's a great chance he would have swooped in on the side of the Targs, giving him a great opportunity to win a royal match for Cersei, and perhaps even get Jaime released from the KG.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 6/16/2018 at 7:06 AM, Ylath's Snout said:

I don't think Ned would really be a contender unless: 

Jaime still joined the the King's Guard meaning that Tyrion stands to inherit the Rock. I don't see how Tywin could persuade Aerys to release Jaime (fantastic way to humiliate the Hand while keeping a stranglehold on him). So Tywin needs a new heir from himself or Cersei to put ahead of Tyrion.

Ned comes from a family as prestigious as the Lannisters, was warded in the south and is a second son. In this scenario that would be helpful because Ned could move to the Rock with the understanding that upon Tywin's death the Rock would go to Ned and Cersei's first male child. That way Tywin gets a new heir he can have a hand in rasing without having to remarry himself.

Marrying into a local House for the purpose of bypassing Tyrion could create trouble down the line if that House decided that they not Lannisters should hold the Rock. Ned would lack the local support needed attempt something like that.

Admittedly all of this is a long shot but I have always found the idea of Ned/Cersei entertaining.

I think a Cersei/Ned match is unlikely just because Tywin seems to have been obsessed with marrying Cersei to a Targaryen prince, and he doesn't seem to have ever truly given up on that, at least not until there was a new king, with a dead betrothed.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I think Oberyn Martell may still have been a viable option for Cersei. 

I always find it interesting that Rhaegar was not considered as a match by Joanna or the Princess of Dorne for their daughters when they were making their plans. It always made me wonder if Aerys wasn't working on his own plans for his son.

I always found it odd that with a line that had considerably dwindled that Rhaegar was allowed to stay unmarried for a really long ass time. I would think the main priority would have been to have him married and having children as soon as possible, especially since Rhaella was having miscarriage after miscarriage or losing her infants.

So I do wonder if there were plans that we are not yet aware of and they just fell through at some point. 

[Bael's Bastard]

On 6/16/2018 at 2:31 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Excellent observation.  Aerys preferred Viserys to Rhaegar and made the younger son heir to the throne.  He would not go for this match with Cersei.  That would make the Lannisters too powerful.  Tywin would want to build peace with the Greyjoys to assure the security of Lannisport.  Cersei to one of the younger Greyjoys.

Aerys might have preferred Viserys to Rhaegar at different points, but he supposedly only named Viserys his heir after Rhaegar's death. Even then, we have one lone statement by Yandel about Viserys being his "new heir" when he was sent off to Dragonstone, and we don't know the accuracy of or basis for that statement.

That said, I think there is something to the idea that Rhaegar intended to restrict or remove power from his father with a council, and to make changes, and I suspect that Tywin was privy to at least some of Rhaegar's intentions prior to Harrenhal. If there is any truth to that, I think Tywin might have hoped to gain such a match from Rhaegar, rather than Aerys.

[Ylath's Snout]

Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

I think a Cersei/Ned match is unlikely just because Tywin seems to have been obsessed with marrying Cersei to a Targaryen prince, and he doesn't seem to have ever truly given up on that, at least not until there was a new king, with a dead betrothed.

Oh for sure my idea wasn't the likeliest for Cersei in the situation OP described, but it was the most probable way I could get to a Cersei/Ned match.

I do really think that Tywin couldn't have held off on a match for Cersei much longer with Jaime in the KG and Tyrion heir-presumptive.  I don't see why Aerys would change his mind about noping a Cersei-Viserys with time. It would have gotten him the loyalty of one of him most important Lords Paramount, another hostage to enforce that loyalty and likely someone of Targ blood as then next heir to the Rock. Around that dang good match that Aerys just refused to some reason. 

Tywin really lucked out with the Rebellion going of when it did.

-------------------------

32 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I always find it interesting that Rhaegar was not considered as a match by Joanna or the Princess of Dorne for their daughters when they were making their plans. It always made me wonder if Aerys wasn't working on his own plans for his son.

Could be that Joanna knew Aerys better as a person and realised that for whatever reason Aerys wouldn't be interested in a Cersei-Rhaegar

38 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I always found it odd that with a line that had considerably dwindled that Rhaegar was allowed to stay unmarried for a really long ass time. I would think the main priority would have been to have him married and having children as soon as possible, especially since Rhaella was having miscarriage after miscarriage or losing her infants.

I'd guess that's to do with the whole "gotta keep our bloodline as inbreed as possible" tradition of the Targs. To be fair Aerys did send of one of his best bros to find a suitably inbred wife for his son in Essos but that didn't work out.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I always find it interesting that Rhaegar was not considered as a match by Joanna or the Princess of Dorne for their daughters when they were making their plans. It always made me wonder if Aerys wasn't working on his own plans for his son.

It is possible that one or both did consider the possibility of Rhaegar. Oberyn seems to be relaying what he believes he deduced based on his own experience visiting Casterly Rock. But he wasn't privy to all of the options Joanna was considering, or even necessarily all of the options his own mother was considering.

It seems unlikely to me that Joanna was unaware of Tywin's desire to wed Cersei to Rhaegar, seeing how he confided this information to Cersei. And Cersei recalls Tywin confiding that information to her when she was around six or seven, which would be in the area of 272 or later, anywhere from just before Joanna's death to just after.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 6/17/2018 at 6:02 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I don't see Tywin going along w/ Viserys. Especially if we are talking post Jaime joining the KG. His pride would never allow him to agree to a match w/ what he'd see as a consolation prize of sorts. 

Viserys is still an heir, and only behind Aerys and Rhaegar (and later, his baby Aegon) in the succession. He might even be privy to whatever plans Rhaegar might have had to call a council and make changes, possibly even plans to restrict his father and assume rule and decision making himself.

Tywin can't keep Cersei unmarried forever, but waiting for Viserys to mature gives him an excuse to wait a bit longer for the possibility that Elia dies, or the possibility that Rhaegar makes a move to restrict Aerys and assume more power.

And worst case scenario, he gets much closer to the throne, even if he has to wait a bit longer to see a descendants of his on it. He probably can't expect much from Aerys, but from Rhaegar he might be able to get a royal match, and Jaime released from the KG.

Rhaegar would have known the value of Tywin, and restoring him as Hand and releasing his heir from the KG would be giving him back things that were already his. Giving him the best royal match possible would go a long way to winning back the Targs's most loyal servant.

For someone who had experienced so much insult at the hands of Aerys, Tywin sucks it up to the very end trying to get that Targ match, and shows no real desire to cast his lot against them until the last moment. The attempted Tully match before Jaime was named to the KG clearly had no anti-Targ intention, as it was while Tywin was still a loyal servant to the throne, with Hoster right under Aerys's nose in KL to seal the deal.
 

On 6/17/2018 at 6:02 AM, kissdbyfire said:

This s an interesting detail, and memory fails me at the mo. Did the Jaime/Lysa thing happened before or after Aerys told Tywin Cersei wasn't good enough for Rhaegar? 

Tywin made his pitch in 276, at the tourney in Lannisport he put on to celebrate the birth of Viserys. Tywin summoned Cersei to KL around 278-279 when she was twelve, supposedly waiting for Viserys to mature or for Elia to die. Tywin and Hoster were negotiating to wed Jaime and Lysa up to 280-281, when Hoster went to KL to seal the deal, and Aerys named Jaime to the KG. Only then did Tywin leave KL and bring Cersei with him.

[Kandrax]

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

brother of a Lord of the Storm Lands with no legitimate son,

In this scenario lord of stotmlands is married.

[punzerknacker]

5 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Cersei was only 9 or 10 when Tywin intended to betroth her to Rhaegar Targaryen in 276, and Tommen was only 8 or 9 when wed to Margaerys Tyrell. A betrothal could have been made for Viserys at any time, and Viserys could wed Cersei before he was 16.

Marriages of young children such as Tommen, or the Tyrek/Ermesande match, are rather uncommon and only happen when there is a good reason. In the case of Tommen and Margaery, the crown needed to secure the Tyrells' loyalty to win the war, otherwise there was no need for Tommen to marry that young. In a feudal society like Westeros it just doesn't make much sense to marry before both partners are biologically capable of having a child. The entire point of the Westerosi obsession with virginity is that the husband can be certain that the child will definitely be his. If a husband can't consummate the marriage for several years because he is not sexually mature yet, how can he be sure his much older wife is not going to take a lover on the side in the meantime? (Exactly what Cersei tries to pin on Marg to get rid of her, btw.) Therefore the norm is to marry a virgin and get her pregnant ASAP so there can be no doubt about the paternity of the child. In this sense, Cersei would not have been a great pick for Viserys compared to someone closer to his own age. Waiting until Cersei was in her early 20s for her to get married would have been an uncommon practice, if we look at how early highborn girls in the series are married (Margaery is about 16, Catelyn, Lysa and Cersei around 18-19, Sansa and Danaerys 13; only the Dornish seem to be an exception. Although one could argue that all these marriages have some political purpose to it, so the wife's age is probably a minor factor.)

[Bael's Bastard]

14 hours ago, Kandrax said:

In this scenario lord of stotmlands is married.

In any scenario, Stannis is Lord Robert's heir to Storm's End until Robert produces a legitimate son/heir, which he still had not done as late as 282. Robert became Lord of Storm's End at some point in 278, and was still not married to Lyanna by the beginning of 282. Thus, Stannis was Lord Robert's heir to Storm's End for at least three years, but possibly four, before Lyanna was kidnapped. Even if it is assumed that Robert will eventually have no trouble fathering legitimate children (as he had no trouble fathering illegitimate children), Stannis is still a very high born heir of one of the great houses.

[Bael's Bastard]

6 hours ago, punzerknacker said:

Marriages of young children such as Tommen, or the Tyrek/Ermesande match, are rather uncommon and only happen when there is a good reason. In the case of Tommen and Margaery, the crown needed to secure the Tyrells' loyalty to win the war, otherwise there was no need for Tommen to marry that young. In a feudal society like Westeros it just doesn't make much sense to marry before both partners are biologically capable of having a child. The entire point of the Westerosi obsession with virginity is that the husband can be certain that the child will definitely be his. If a husband can't consummate the marriage for several years because he is not sexually mature yet, how can he be sure his much older wife is not going to take a lover on the side in the meantime? (Exactly what Cersei tries to pin on Marg to get rid of her, btw.) Therefore the norm is to marry a virgin and get her pregnant ASAP so there can be no doubt about the paternity of the child. In this sense, Cersei would not have been a great pick for Viserys compared to someone closer to his own age. Waiting until Cersei was in her early 20s for her to get married would have been an uncommon practice, if we look at how early highborn girls in the series are married (Margaery is about 16, Catelyn, Lysa and Cersei around 18-19, Sansa and Danaerys 13; only the Dornish seem to be an exception. Although one could argue that all these marriages have some political purpose to it, so the wife's age is probably a minor factor.)

Whether it was ideal or not would depend on the motivations of the parties making the deal. If Tywin was willing to "settle" for Viserys, he might have been willing to wait to wed Cersei until Viserys was old enough to consummate. It might make for a long betrothal, but he already demonstrated that he was willing to wait a bit when he wished to betroth Cersei to Rhaegar when she was 9 or 10. It is just a matter of how long he would be willing to wait, and what he would be willing to wait that long for. Obviously this is all speculative. I am skeptical Aerys would have agreed to a match with Tywin for Viserys. There are benefits, especially after Jaime is locked into the KG, but I am not sure Aerys would have been competent enough to see them. So it would probably depend on circumstances leading to Rhaegar having the final say, or Tywin having Aerys in a desperate enough position to be able to extract such a match from him. It would be interesting to know what, if anything, Rhaegar offered Tywin to return after the Battle of the Bells. I don't think the letter ever made it to Tywin. But I wouldn't be surprised if it included offering to release Jaime from his vows and/or offering Viserys for Cersei. 

[Pikachu101]

Willas and Edmure are too young, a safe bet would be Elbert Arryn but that would depend on whether or not Tywin was as invested in the Southern Ambition as the others were. 

I can also see Tywin try to marry Cersei to Viserys, but I think they'd marry him off to Arianne so he can't try an overthrow Aegon. 

[Bael's Bastard]

25 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Willas and Edmure are too young, a safe bet would be Elbert Arryn but that would depend on whether or not Tywin was as invested in the Southern Ambition as the others were. 

I can also see Tywin try to marry Cersei to Viserys, but I think they'd marry him off to Arianne so he can't try an overthrow Aegon. 

Hopefully we will find out more about Elbert Arryn, and whether he was promised or married to anyone when he was killed by Aerys. He seems to get overlooked in a lot of the discussions about the great lords and their heirs in around 280-282.

Arianne seems a good fit for Viserys age wise, but that would be a lot of eggs in the same [Martell/Dornish] basket, and Aerys already seems to have soured against them by the time Rhaegar's children were being born. He might have tried to avoid "mixing" Viserys with the Martells/Dornish. Had he known about Daenerys, I would not be shocked if he had betrothed Viserys to baby Daenerys for a "pure" Targaryen match.

But if he was willing to do another Martell/Dornish match, for Viserys, he could have also considered betrothing Viserys to Rhaenys. There would be more of an age gap than with Arianne, but she would also be an actual Targaryen, with a Martell/Dornish mother.

[Ylath's Snout]

13 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

He seems to get overlooked in a lot of the discussions about the great lords and their heirs in around 280-282.

He is dead and we know next to nothing about him as person it isn't surprising that he is overlooked.

There just isn't enough meat on his bones to make a proper theory/scenario-zambo of him unless you veer into actual fanfics.

14 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Arianne seems a good fit for Viserys age wise, but that would be a lot of eggs in the same [Martell/Dornish] basket, and Aerys already seems to have soured against them by the time Rhaegar's children were being born. He might have tried to avoid "mixing" Viserys with the Martells/Dornish. Had he known about Daenerys, I would not be shocked if he had betrothed Viserys to baby Daenerys for a "pure" Targaryen match.

There is also the problem with a Viserys-Arianne match that another marriage won't yield any greater benefits. Dorne seems to have gone all in during Robert's Rebellion, another Targ-Martell match wouldn't magic up another 10 000 spears from Dorne. 

If Viserys had been married to another Great or powerful second tier House the Rebellion could have gone another way.

Also you'd think that Aerys should have realised that you have have living toddlers or traditional Targ marriage with all the sorrow he and Shaera had.

[Bael's Bastard]

Just now, Ylath's Snout said:

He is dead and we know next to nothing about him as person it isn't surprising that he is overlooked.

There just isn't enough meat on his bones to make a proper theory/scenario-zambo of him unless you veer into actual fanfics.

I am just talking in terms of interest and discussion about him, especially since we know so little about him. He tends to be forgotten, even though he was heir of House Arryn, just as his companion Brandon was heir of House Stark. It's not surprising that Brandon gets more attention, as most of our original POVs are Starks by birth or marriage. But he must have been a relatively important character around the Harrenhal period leading up to his death.