Would Robert marry Elia if Tywin didn't kill her?

[Bernie Mac]

27 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

He really didn't keep Robert's hands clean.

In the eyes of Robert, the general public and the Maester's who write the history he was clean. 

 

20 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Marrying the daughter of someone you beat is a way of ensuring a lasting peace. The Kings of Winter did that a lot.

If there were only two factions that would be true, there were multiple factions and two of them in particular, Lannister and Tyrell, were too strong to not try to appease.

20 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

If Robert wanted to reward allies he would have married Cat, Lysa or the daughter of a important Bannerman from the North, Vale, Riverlands or Stormlands. Not the Late-to-the-Party Lord Lannister's daughter.

A benefit of being late to the war is that his strength was still strong, Tywin was an important ally to secure. The danger of marrying someone other than a Lannister, Tyrell or Hightower is two of those marrying and forming a strong rival. 

 

[Ylath's Snout]

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

If there were only two factions that would be true, there were multiple factions and two of them in particular, Lannister and Tyrell, were too strong to not try to appease.

I was only point out that a marriage with a Martell for Robert isn't completely nonsensical.

But sure there are other considerations to make.

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The danger of marrying someone other than a Lannister, Tyrell or Hightower is two of those marrying and forming a strong rival. 

That's true enough.

[Euron Lannister]

possible, it would have been a good move to make the dornish happy, and prevent a dornish-targaryen alliance

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Dorne wasn't a threat though. The rebel alliance would have crushed them if they tried anything. Tywin's wealth was far more important.

Dorne didn't have the power to remove Robert from the throne on their own, but it wasn't the least bit beneficial to Robert for a great house that could have easily been on his side to be sworn to his destruction. And no, the rebel alliance would not have crushed Dorne, as there is no way Dorne would have met them in the open on their own, and an invasion of Dorne would have made a quick end to Robert's regime and alliances.

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Tywin wasn't a beggar. His gave Robert an easy win in KL, and ensured there wouldn't be challenged from Rhaegar's heirs while keeping Robert's hands clean. Add to that the wealth he would bring to KL, Tywin had a good deal of power over Robert. What other marriage alliance for Robert would be as mutually beneficial?

While marriage to Stannis wouldn't have be a negative, the further removed from the King Tywin is, the harder it would have been to ask him for money without risking souring their relationship.

Also, I doubt Tywin would accept that union, hoping/expecting Robert would issue no legitimate heirs. Elia would have been forced to bear a heir or literally die trying. If the latter happened, Robert would simply replace her with a Queen that could bear him a son.

Tywin was a beggar going into the sack, in the sense that he had contributed nothing to the rebel side all war, and was hoping to "get in" with the rebels at the very last moment. He was little different than the Freys and Greyjoys in that sense. His intervention did not change the result of the war, only altered the post-war conditions. The rebels would have eventually taken King's Landing without him. But he lucked out with the unexpected death of Lyanna, and alienation of the Martells, without which he might have ended up with among the worst ties to the new regime. But that was all to his benefit, not Robert's.

A union with Stannis, in a scenario where Lyanna lived or Robert inexplicably wed Elia, would have been an infinitely better scenario than settling for Viserys, who would not be of age for years, and was behind Rhaegar and his son anyways. It might not be his preference, but he was in no position to make demands. He didn't swoop in and save the day for the rebels, he only swooped in and saved his own ass from having contributed nothing all war. Only with the death of Lyanna and alienation of the Martells is Tywin unexpectedly in position to directly wed the throne.

[Chris Mormont]

No.  Even if the kids lived.  She was sickly, she couldn't have kids, and I don't think Robert would have wanted Rheagar's leavings after what Robert thought he did to Lyanna.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 8/23/2018 at 3:10 AM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

In the title

her death was a major plot so no, she would never live 

[Hodor the Articulate]

20 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Dorne didn't have the power to remove Robert from the throne on their own, but it wasn't the least bit beneficial to Robert for a great house that could have easily been on his side to be sworn to his destruction. And no, the rebel alliance would not have crushed Dorne, as there is no way Dorne would have met them in the open on their own, and an invasion of Dorne would have made a quick end to Robert's regime and alliances. 

There was no way Dorne was going to be anything but sworn to Robert's destruction after Rhaenys and Aegon were murdered. Also, half of Westeros were loyalist, including the Tyrells. Should he have taken a wife from all those houses too?

Why would anyone need to invade Dorne? They swore fealty to Robert after the war. There was no need to pacify them.

20 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Tywin was a beggar going into the sack, in the sense that he had contributed nothing to the rebel side all war, and was hoping to "get in" with the rebels at the very last moment. He was little different than the Freys and Greyjoys in that sense. His intervention did not change the result of the war, only altered the post-war conditions. The rebels would have eventually taken King's Landing without him. But he lucked out with the unexpected death of Lyanna, and alienation of the Martells, without which he might have ended up with among the worst ties to the new regime. But that was all to his benefit, not Robert's.

A union with Stannis, in a scenario where Lyanna lived or Robert inexplicably wed Elia, would have been an infinitely better scenario than settling for Viserys, who would not be of age for years, and was behind Rhaegar and his son anyways. It might not be his preference, but he was in no position to make demands. He didn't swoop in and save the day for the rebels, he only swooped in and saved his own ass from having contributed nothing all war. Only with the death of Lyanna and alienation of the Martells is Tywin unexpectedly in position to directly wed the throne.

I know what you meant, but that's missing the point. It doesn't matter that Tywin didn't change the overall outcome of the war. The Lannisters were literally the final blow (or stab, rather) to Aerys' reign, and by murdering the kids, they ensured Robert could take the throne without any fuss. The last one, especially, was a necessary evil that no one else was willing to do. Giving Tywin a consolation prize and saying "you weren't that much help tbh. We could have taken KL without you" after that would be publicly humiliating Tywin and making an enemy out of the richest lord in Westeros.

Even Stannis understands that rewarding lords isn't always about merit, but about strengthening alliances.

[Bernie Mac]

On 8/24/2018 at 3:03 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

 

Tywin was a beggar going into the sack, in the sense that he had contributed nothing to the rebel side all war, and was hoping to "get in" with the rebels at the very last moment. He was little different than the Freys and Greyjoys in that sense.

Except of course he took the capital, which, according to Ned, had several thousand loyalists. In turn Ned was able to quickly go to Storm's End before it was captured.

Tywin contributed quite significantly to the war. 

On 8/24/2018 at 3:03 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

His intervention did not change the result of the war, only altered the post-war conditions.

Had he stayed neutral the rebels will have eventually won, but Robert would not be in a position to rule, Dorne, the Reach, the Westerlands and Iron Islands would all be in a position to refuse him fealty, it would be a return to independence for all. 

On 8/24/2018 at 3:03 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

The rebels would have eventually taken King's Landing without him. But he lucked out with the unexpected death of Lyanna,

Lyanna was damaged goods, no prospective King would take a bride who had spent much of the year being 'raped' by another man. The marriage was over long before she died.

On 8/24/2018 at 3:03 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

 

and alienation of the Martells,

The Martells lost at least 10k of their force and while much of Westeros might be in the dark about their military strength no one makes that mistake about their wealth. They are firmly behind the Lannisters, Tyrells and Hightowers when it comes to Robert picking a political marriage alliance. 

 

On 8/24/2018 at 3:03 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

 

without which he might have ended up with among the worst ties to the new regime. But that was all to his benefit, not Robert's.

It was beneficial to both, you'd have to be awfully short sighted not to see that. The Rebels were down to 35k before they faced Rhaegar, Tywin offered them double their army and the backing of the richest realm in Westeros, always a positive after a year long war. 

Robert had options, three Houses, but out of the three the Lannisters seemed the best bet and had. on paper, the perfect bride for the new king.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Only if Jon Arryn told him to .

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 8/24/2018 at 1:28 PM, Chris Mormont said:

No.  Even if the kids lived.  She was sickly, she couldn't have kids, and I don't think Robert would have wanted Rheagar's leavings after what Robert thought he did to Lyanna.

What he said