Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

[SirArthur]

56 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I don't think Jon would be a kinslayer. To me, it doesn't ass to his story. He has lived his entire life as a bastard, to add kinslaying would be forcing the plot for me. 

Hmm, I haven't thought about that one. And I'm missing the Stark Lord of 53. The one who had to give up the gift. 

edit: But thinking about it, a Stark/Alysanne bastard on the Iron Throne could explain why the dragons died out.  

The reverse would be Jon as a real "Targaryen of old" bastard. Which would actually fit for any Baratheon of the male line, if the founder bastard rumors are correct. 

edit2: so ... will Jon kill Stannis to complete the Bael circle ? Find out next time, when heresy goes crazy. 

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

How old ? err ... died in 101 AC which led to the need of a great council. 

born between 53 and 6x AC. Alysanne visited Winterfell early in the reign of her husband, which started in 50 AC. So, I don't know. Funny enough she has a song, mentioned two times in the books. 

Do we know of more connections that point to Bael the Bard = Baelon ? It would be good to know when Baelon came into the primary source ? Was it a GRRM original or added later after the tree of Targaryen kings had been established ?

 

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

I don't think Jon would be a kinslayer. To me, it doesn't ass to his story. He has lived his entire life as a bastard, to add kinslaying would be forcing the plot for me. 

 

The Struggle I want to see, that wouldn't force as much, is Jon the Turncloak. It is my interpretation that the reason Marsh led the coup on that particular night was because he thought the Lord Commander was deserting. That is a struggle I could get behind. 

Sorry to be so obtuse - I was seeking relevance. Why should we care if Baelon was the original Bael, or whether or not Alysanne left a child at the Wall? How long do you think Alysanne was away from her husband? It'd have to be 9-10 months to strike up an affair, hide a pregnancy, and then give up the child before her husband joined her at Winterfell. It's too much for too little impact for the current story, so it seems silly to me.

Ygritte is the one that stressed that Jon is the Bastard O'Winterfell whose father is Bael. If she's right, then either Jon's father is still alive or he's killed him already, otherwise bringing up this tale served no purpose whatsoever.

[Brad Stark]

We are going to see some tales that served no purpose, other than giving us a rich, realistic history and culture for GRRM's world.  I was trying to find the SSM, but GRRM talks about how Fantasy Authors have a rule that the reader must visit every corner of the map, and he didn't subscribe to this or feel it was realistic.  He was talking about geography, but I think it applies as much or more to history, and if every tale told turned out to be relevant, it would make ASOIAF feel like a scavenger hunt.

That said, I would love to place a Targaryen bastard at the Wall, as it gives us lots of interesting possibilities for all kinds of things, such as Craster and Coldhands.  I just don't see it, and if we get one, it is going to be the child of a male Targaryen.  I just don't see a bunch Watchmen keeping a secret about a pregnant queen for months.

[BlackLightning]

On 9/27/2018 at 6:41 PM, Tucu said:

The dragons not passing the Wall reminds me of the Dothraki not entering the Kingdom of the Ifequevron

I think that the Ifequevron are just Children of the Forest who live in Essos. Perhaps they migrated there.

 

[Brad Stark]

I've often wondered if we will get an origin story for the giants and Children or if they remain mysterious beings who always existed. If it is the 2nd, they existed in Essos as well and we are unlikely to get anything about a migration. 

[Janneyc1]

On 10/3/2018 at 5:20 PM, Brad Stark said:

I've often wondered if we will get an origin story for the giants and Children or if they remain mysterious beings who always existed. If it is the 2nd, they existed in Essos as well and we are unlikely to get anything about a migration. 

My bet is that we will not see their origin story. It would be interesting, but I think there is too much to wrap up as is. 

 

As for a second thought, speaking of Death not being what it used to be, we see that Lord Beric passed his flame to LSH, I think that we will see her pass that flame to someone else. My guess is Arya, but I am not 100% about it. 

[JNR]

14 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

My bet is that we will not see their origin story.

Much too far in the past, if Leaf is telling anything like the truth here:

Quote

And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years.

It's also surprising GRRM would have used such a cliched phrase as that -- "X of your Earth years" is a stock line as delivered by aliens in really campy science fiction.

[Brad Stark]

Bran should be able to see as far back as he wants, even a million years could be possible.  After all, either leaf doesn't really know for certain, or knows it has been this long because the Children actually can see that far back. 

This might make it difficult for grrm to leave any questions on history ambiguous or unresolved, as he either has to give us a reason Bran isn't interested, or give us an answer, or make it believable that the question isn't asked. 

We have hints we see an origin story for the dragons, and for The Long Night and the reason for the seasons.  So an origin for the Children is not out of the question. 

Those cheesy alien lines do make me wonder, aren't the Childrens' years the same as everyone else's? Is there something here?  Or was grrm just in a hurry to finish the book and reading science fiction at the time? 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Much too far in the past, if Leaf is telling anything like the truth here:

It's also surprising GRRM would have used such a cliched phrase as that -- "X of your Earth years" is a stock line as delivered by aliens in really campy science fiction.

It would be cheesy if they weren't from the same planet, but it is intriguing if they calculate time in a different manner. For example, if there really is a wheel of time at play then the Children's perceived long life may be due to living outside of the time loops, while mankind is inside a time-managed environment.

Edited to add: we've often discussed the significance of passing through the Black Gate. Perhaps time is different if you enter through it?

[Brad Stark]

Grrm has commented enough against other Sci fi elements in this series I think we are safe from Children really being little green men.  But they might tell time differently, and that might be relevant to the story. 

[SirArthur]

26 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It would be cheesy if they weren't from the same planet, but it is intriguing if they calculate time in a different manner. For example, if there really is a wheel of time at play then the Children's perceived long life may be due to living outside of the time loops, while mankind is inside a time-managed environment.

Edited to add: we've often discussed the significance of passing through the Black Gate. Perhaps time is different if you enter through it?

Stop reading the story like scifi and include british fantasy elements like fairies, otherworlds (be it celtic or germanic) and prophecies. 

And bring your timeloop idea to paper, because at this point it is a mess of timeloops within timeloops. Ranging from a season to thousand thousand years. And formulate who is outside, who is inside and what is the point of the timeloop, if too much influencers are outside. 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

It would be cheesy if they weren't from the same planet, but it is intriguing if they calculate time in a different manner. For example, if there really is a wheel of time at play then the Children's perceived long life may be due to living outside of the time loops, while mankind is inside a time-managed environment.

Edited to add: we've often discussed the significance of passing through the Black Gate. Perhaps time is different if you enter through it?

I could just simply be a case of them not developing the concept of a solar year. Without agriculture and with weird seasons they could just have developed only lunar calendars and use lunar years.

In the real world, the Gregorian calendar is a solar calendar that was developed from an earlier lunar calendar with 354 days in a year.

[Melifeather]

48 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Stop reading the story like scifi and include british fantasy elements like fairies, otherworlds (be it celtic or germanic) and prophecies. 

And bring your timeloop idea to paper, because at this point it is a mess of timeloops within timeloops. Ranging from a season to thousand thousand years. And formulate who is outside, who is inside and what is the point of the timeloop, if too much influencers are outside. 

What? 

What I propose is very similar to the Marvel Dr Strange time loops, which I would consider fantasy. The difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that sci-fi is about possible future technology, whereas fantasy creates impossible scenarios that have never and never will exist. Unless you think it's possible to manipulate time?

[JNR]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It would be cheesy if they weren't from the same planet, but it is intriguing if they calculate time in a different manner.

Well, I agree they're certainly from the same planet, but think it's cheesy anyway.  It's the kind of pulp writing Matthew has sometimes objected to -- a line I would not have committed to the story, in GRRM's shoes.

As to how they calculate time, yes, that's surprising, but not too surprising.   The concept of the year is just less important if you live in a society like the CotF's, that doesn't have anything like conventional commerce or agriculture.

(Similarly, the concept of weekend isn't very meaningful if you live in a society where people don't work five of the seven days of the week.)

However, no matter how they calculate time, the CotF surely would have noticed if at some point the seasons became far less regular.  This is the sort of question I'd be researching if I were Bran, and I do think it has significance to the story and to future books.

[Janneyc1]

Speaking of Death and Rebirth, did you guys catch that Dany was pregnant again and accidentally aborted the child? 

Quote

 

For a moment she did not realize what it was. The world had just begun to lighten, and the tall grass rustled softly in the wind. No, please, let me sleep some more. I'm so tired. She tried to burrow back beneath the pile of grass she had torn up when she went to sleep. Some of the stalks felt wet. Had it rained again? She sat up, afraid that she had soiled herself as she slept. When she brought her fingers to her face, she could smell the blood on them. Am I dying? Then she saw the pale crescent moon, floating high above the grass, and it came to her that this was no more than her moon blood.

If she had not been so sick and scared, that might have come as a relief. Instead she began to shiver violently. She rubbed her fingers through the dirt, and grabbed a handful of grass to wipe between her legs. The dragon does not weep. She was bleeding, but it was only woman's blood. The moon is still a crescent, though. How can that be? She tried to remember the last time she had bled. The last full moon? The one before? The one before that? No, it cannot have been so long as that. "I am the blood of the dragon," she told the grass, aloud.

Once, the grass whispered back, until you chained your dragons in the dark.

 

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Speaking of Death and Rebirth, did you guys catch that Dany was pregnant again and accidentally aborted the child? 

 

I wondered about that, but since it was at the end of Dance it didn’t get expanded upon. I guess I put too much stock in Mirri’s prophecy that Dany’s womb wouldn’t quicken until after the seas “dried” (IMO frozen), and mountains blow away like leaves (the disintegration of the Wall). Having her menses just means her body is functioning normally. Her ovaries passed an egg. It wasn’t fertilized, so she got her period. The lack of periods prior was when she was sterile.

[Lady Barbrey]

On 10/11/2018 at 11:01 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I wondered about that, but since it was at the end of Dance it didn’t get expanded upon. I guess I put too much stock in Mirri’s prophecy that Dany’s womb wouldn’t quicken until after the seas “dried” (IMO frozen), and mountains blow away like leaves (the disintegration of the Wall). Having her menses just means her body is functioning normally. Her ovaries passed an egg. It wasn’t fertilized, so she got her period. The lack of periods prior was when she was sterile.

I vote more for a miscarriage, because she seems to be regular at the full moon.  Not that a period after a hiatus must begin in her normal cycle at the full moon, but why bother giving us the full moon info if that's not what we're being told?

[romantic]

Hi. I've just finished rereading the novels and in my withdrawal I've been catching up on some of the latest Heresies. Danny Flint was mentioned a few Heresies ago and made me start thinking. What if she was raped but then exiled north of the Wall (and the NW assumed she then died). Both Lolly's and Tysha have been gangraped (and somehow survived the trauma) but then released not killed. Danny would have been betrayed by all of her 'brothers' (either directly through raping her or indirectly by not helping her and exiling her) while those brothers in turn would have forsaken their vows of celibacy and brotherhood. A child born of this degree of betrayal and dishonour of the NW vows might then bear a heavy genetic curse that someone/something might use to create WWs that symbolically represent the worse of the NW and gives those WW more power against the NW. Incest over generations might then keep this curse strong. Of course Danny Flint was in the Nightfort which hasn't been used in 200+ years so I don't know if a curse could stay in the one family that long but it might help explain Craster's curse.

Also I wonder if the NW vows only really work if said in front of the old gods and if the vows are upheld (e.g. celibacy). Maybe the wall will fall if there comes a day when none of the remaining NW have taken their vow in the front of the weirwoods and have upheld their sworn vow. I would assume Mormont, Aemon and Benjen were 'True NW' (but Mormont and Aemon are dead and we don't know about Benjen) while Jon and Sam are not (because they are no longer celibate - though Sam was still celibate when allowed though the NightFort's Gate). There have been some new NW with vows said in front of the weirwoods (Leathers, Satin, etc) but who knows if they are keeping their vows. I assume most of the other NW have said vows to the Seven so I'm unsure how many are actually 'True' NW. The dwindling number of 'True' NW may also be contributing to the increased activity of the WW.

Anyway, I always enjoy the heresies and am impressed by their breadth and longevity. Kudos to everyone.

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, romantic said:

A child born of this degree of betrayal and dishonour of the NW vows might then bear a heavy genetic curse that someone/something might use to create WWs that symbolically represent the worse of the NW and gives those WW more power against the NW. Incest over generations might then keep this curse strong. Of course Danny Flint was in the Nightfort which hasn't been used in 200+ years so I don't know if a curse could stay in the one family that long but it might help explain Craster's curse.

It's an interesting idea, but my current opinion is that the white walkers were created by humans to be warrior soldiers for the wildlings. That there are so few of them suggests that it requires sacrifice. If it were easy they'd all do it. Maybe you have to be willing to sacrifice your mortal life to become one? In any case it requires some type of "life". The black shadow that Melisandre birthed was drawn from Stannis's life-force, permanently taking something from and weakening Stannis. I would expect that the white walkers have a similar source, and that the reasons for drawing or birthing them would be similar - using magic to gain an edge over your enemy.

32 minutes ago, romantic said:

Also I wonder if the NW vows only really work if said in front of the old gods and if the vows are upheld (e.g. celibacy). Maybe the wall will fall if there comes a day when none of the remaining NW have taken their vow in the front of the weirwoods and have upheld their sworn vow.

The large majority of Nights Watch follow the Faith of the Seven. It's so lopsided that it seems to imply that either the Watch was taken over, or it was always an Andal institution from the get-go.

[Brad Stark]

So now we are back to my favorite chicken and egg problem.  Did the Wall, Watch, White Walkers or Long Night happen first?  Lots of theories like about Dany Flint being the source of the White Walkers, but why the Watch and Wall without the Walkers?  The Night King Story  in the books has the same problem.