Ser Sandor Clegane?

[chrisdaw]

41 minutes ago, zandru said:

I've got to apologize for my rudeness, but this scenario just seems laughable to me. Sandor isn't going to hear about "Sansa" (aka Baelish's Bastard) -- to the contrary, she will be hearing about him, and how he's gone criminal and is killing, raping, and ripping women apart with his teeth. Of course, we the readers know it's actually Rorge, and later Lem Lemoncloak -- but Sansa won't know that. How will she react to the stories?

I also don't see where the Faith of the Seven would have any reason to defend Sansa Stark against the Iron Throne. She's nothing to them, and everyone knows the Starks all worship the old pagan tree gods.

Eventually Cersei is going to get Sansa trialled for her role in Joff's murder and that will be Cleganebowl, and it will be a trial by seven.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 5:52 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

The big man has a sense of humor...

15 hours ago, Firefae said:

Besides, SRS is not Gregor Clegane anymore. He's a puppet now controlled by Cersei and Qyburn. And while people suspect SRS is Gregor, they can't be 100 % sure. And they certainly wouldn't tell The Faith. So why would they sent Sandor to fight against him?

 

Honestly Cleganebowl is one of the most ridiculous theories ever. 

I quoted out of context here, but it applies to the situation.

I believe that Sandor would be ironically pleased with what his brother has become since it was a puppet that was the catalyst that precipitated his ruination. If anything, I think Sandor would see (re)killing Gregor (if it really is Gregor) as a mercy; a mercy that I'm not quite sure Sandor would be so quick to give, regardless of any spiritual transformation that might take place within him.

[rotting sea cow]

Sandor will get knighted by Sansa Stark, the Queen in the North, will dress in Bronze Yohn armor (which has of course some magic on it) and will take Lady Forlorn (what an apt name for Sansa too) valyrian sword to battle the Others.

Many other things will happen in between but that is his endgame.

[Firefae]

9 hours ago, zandru said:

 

I've got to apologize for my rudeness, but this scenario just seems laughable to me. Sandor isn't going to hear about "Sansa" (aka Baelish's Bastard) -- to the contrary, she will be hearing about him, and how he's gone criminal and is killing, raping, and ripping women apart with his teeth. Of course, we the readers know it's actually Rorge, and later Lem Lemoncloak -- but Sansa won't know that. How will she react to the stories?

I also don't see where the Faith of the Seven would have any reason to defend Sansa Stark against the Iron Throne. She's nothing to them, and everyone knows the Starks all worship the old pagan tree gods.

Agreed. No one in Westeros truly knows where Sansa is, so how could the Elder Brother know? Besides, EB has said he hides information from the other holy brothers. Sandor probably knows very little about the current ongoings in T7K.

8 hours ago, Trefayne said:

I quoted out of context here, but it applies to the situation.

I believe that Sandor would be ironically pleased with what his brother has become since it was a puppet that was the catalyst that precipitated his ruination. If anything, I think Sandor would see (re)killing Gregor (if it really is Gregor) as a mercy; a mercy that I'm not quite sure Sandor would be so quick to give, regardless of any spiritual transformation that might take place within him.

Why would he be pleased that his brother has become a zombie and want to give him Mercy?

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Sandor will get knighted by Sansa Stark, the Queen in the North, will dress in Bronze Yohn armor (which has of course some magic on it) and will take Lady Forlorn (what an apt name for Sansa too) valyrian sword to battle the Others.

Many other things will happen in between but that is his endgame.

The North doesn't do Knights because Knights are connected to The Faith. There are Knights but these are exceptions. I'm not sure it would be good PR for The Queen in The North to start knighting people, if you get me.

[Rufus Snow]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The word zealot already has a meaning and it isn't that. What in the text lends any credence to them not being zealots?

Where did I say the Faith Militant are not zealots? Of course they are zealots, that's why compared them to the taliban, and I expressed my opinion that zealots are motivated less by genuine religious urges than they are by the opportunity to absolve themselves from any repsonsibility for their actions.

The concept of zealotry does NOT imply a genuine faith as you seem to believe ('zealots are true'), but an extreme and fanatical faith, as per the definition:

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zealot

ˈzɛlət/

noun

noun: zealot; plural noun: zealots

1. a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

   synonyms:

   fanatic, enthusiast, extremist, radical, Young Turk, diehard, activist, militant; More bigot, dogmatist, sectarian, partisan; informalfiend, maniac, ultra, nut "reforming zealots destroyed a vast collection of papers"

   antonyms:

   moderate

The definition does not depend on those ideals being in any way true, well-founded, sincere or even orthodox, which your statement that 'zealots are true' would seem to imply.

 

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It's the ones who believe in gods who make the trouble.

I'm very familiar with the quote, and coming out of the mouth of Tyrion it is very clearly intended in a cynical light. I don't think Tyrion is giving a glowing testimonial for the veracity of anyone's vocation; indeed, I think it's quite the opposite. He says elsewhere that he doen't believe in the gods, and this quote shows he sees those who do (or claim to) as self-deceiving fools and fanatics.

 

9 hours ago, zandru said:

The High Sparrow and the Elder Brother have come across as opposites. One is politically motivated to gain power and impose his -- er, "the gods'" will. The other displays the goodness of the gods by his works. You can go down the line.

The Quiet Isle will not participate in the militant wings, nor will Sandor become a bloodthirsty zealot, taking up his sword to further the power of the Big Sparrow in King's Landing.

If there's any genuine piety amongst the Seveners it will be on Quiet Isle, not in the High Sept.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

32 minutes ago, Firefae said:

Why would he be pleased that his brother has become a zombie and want to give him Mercy?

Cute.

[chrisdaw]

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

The concept of zealotry does NOT imply a genuine faith as you seem to believe ('zealots are true'), but an extreme and fanatical faith, as per the definition:

The definition does not depend on those ideals being in any way true, well-founded, sincere or even orthodox, which your statement that 'zealots are true' would seem to imply.

Yes it does and it has forever, they're genuine, they're sincere, we could trade dictionary definitions but there's no point. The HS is as true as can be, that's the whole point of the character and an area GRRM has always been headed towards, and that's why there's nothing textual to support your personal opinion.

[zandru]

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Sandor will get knighted by Sansa Stark, the Queen in the North, will dress in Bronze Yohn armor (which has of course some magic on it) and will take Lady Forlorn (what an apt name for Sansa too) valyrian sword to battle the Others.

Frankly, I'll believe it when I read it from the rickety old DOS PC of GRRM. (Man, if that thing ever fails to boot one day, we're in real trouble.)

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Firefae said:

EB has said he hides information from the other holy brothers.

Thanks! I missed that one.

Some time back (let's not get into numbers...), I read in one of Joseph Campbell's books where he wrote about various religious people. He observed that it's typical that members of "the flock" are more likely to be jingoistic about their religion as opposed to everybody else's, and to have disagreements and arguments which, too frequently, ended up bloody. But in sharp contrast, Campbell said he had attended multi-cultural, multi-faith gatherings of Catholic priests, imams, rabbis, Buddhist priests, Protestant ministers, etc and was struck by how well everyone got along and had no problems with the various procedural details of one another's faith - they all believed, approximately, in the same thing, and they knew and accepted that different people could take different paths to the same goals.

I take this to imply that the religious people on the self-isolated Quiet Isle are not ever going to act as self-righteous zealots; that they will honor their gods by doing good and not by trying to seize power and MAKE everybody conform to their shrunken concept of what's "good." Nor will they seek vengeance upon the sinners.

Which means that, for now, Sandor is safe - maybe for the first time in his life.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

30 minutes ago, zandru said:

Frankly, I'll believe it when I read it from the rickety old DOS PC of GRRM. (Man, if that thing ever fails to boot one day, we're in real trouble.)

It's actually more precarious than that! What he uses is a dedicated WordStar word processor from the early 1980s. That's all it does. It couldn't run another program if it tried. I used one in college. It was a marvel in its time, but its time was brief. They must have some pretty funky Frankenstein crap hooked up to that antique to convert from 5" floppy discs to modern memory storage.

[Firefae]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Thanks! I missed that one.

Some time back (let's not get into numbers...), I read in one of Joseph Campbell's books where he wrote about various religious people. He observed that it's typical that members of "the flock" are more likely to be jingoistic about their religion as opposed to everybody else's, and to have disagreements and arguments which, too frequently, ended up bloody. But in sharp contrast, Campbell said he had attended multi-cultural, multi-faith gatherings of Catholic priests, imams, rabbis, Buddhist priests, Protestant ministers, etc and was struck by how well everyone got along and had no problems with the various procedural details of one another's faith - they all believed, approximately, in the same thing, and they knew and accepted that different people could take different paths to the same goals.

I take this to imply that the religious people on the self-isolated Quiet Isle are not ever going to act as self-righteous zealots; that they will honor their gods by doing good and not by trying to seize power and MAKE everybody conform to their shrunken concept of what's "good." Nor will they seek vengeance upon the sinners.

Which means that, for now, Sandor is safe - maybe for the first time in his life.

I think what GRRM was going for with these figures of the Elder Brother and Septon Meribald is how people can turn religious, but not be assholes about it. They still confront the 'sins' they commited and don't hand-wave it away because 'they found God now'. Elder Brother still seems to have guilt about his past.

They're very humble and not pretentious or ambitious. They communicate mostly with the smallfolk and not The Highborn. They understand the real problems in the world and genuinely try to help people.

[Varysblackfyre321]

19 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, because I think the High Sparrow is as genuine as a nine-bob-note. I think it's ALL pretence, ALL bullshit. He's making a power play as much as any Lannister. He talks the talk, but I don't trust him as far as I could spit him.

He backs up his talk with actions. He apparently lives by the way he preaches, his view may be despicable to you and I, but he doesn't give any hint he's just putting on a show. He seems to genuinely believe what he is doing is for the greater good of the faith. Hell he doesn't even move against Hel he didn't actually move against Cersi until he found discovered she was guilty of committing regicide and ordering the murder of the previous high-septon. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

ine piety amongst the Seveners it will be on Quiet Isle, not in the High Sept.

There will piety found in both-neither the faith militant or the monks on the quiet isle are pretending to honour their gods-they just have different ways of going about it. 

[rotting sea cow]

19 hours ago, Firefae said:

he North doesn't do Knights because Knights are connected to The Faith. There are Knights but these are exceptions. I'm not sure it would be good PR for The Queen in The North to start knighting people, if you get me.

And Sandor couldn't be an exception? Specially when you have an invasion of ice zombies?

If Sandor is going to be knighted, it cannot be by some random dude, specially given his loathing of knights. Only after (not before as many knights) doing some awesome deeds (maybe saving Sansa and/or Arya?), he may be receive knighthood. And to make the whole thing satisfying to his (and Sansa and Arya's) arc who is better than Sansa, but Sansa must be queen otherwise cannot knight anyone. This gives their whole relation some chivalric romance overtones.

This is the only satisfying outcome if Sandor is going to become a knight (which he may not, but I think he will). It is the same with Brienne, if she receives knighthood (which I think she will), it must be from Jaime.  Otherwise, what the point of investing in their respective relationships if you don't get these intense moments?

 

16 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Frankly, I'll believe it when I read it from the rickety old DOS PC of GRRM. (Man, if that thing ever fails to boot one day, we're in real trouble.)

See above.

But don't worry about GRRM's PC, DOS is far more stable that any Windows shit that MS produced afterwards and easier to fix in case of a crash or even MBR virus (been there, done that).  Also, being mono task makes it even difficult even for NSA thugs to get into the computer, so it is pretty secure, although certainly the security of collaborators is sloppier.

 

 

 

[Firefae]

23 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

And Sandor couldn't be an exception? Specially when you have an invasion of ice zombies?

If Sandor is going to be knighted, it cannot be by some random dude, specially given his loathing of knights. Only after (not before as many knights) doing some awesome deeds (maybe saving Sansa and/or Arya?), he may be receive knighthood. And to make the whole thing satisfying to his (and Sansa and Arya's) arc who is better than Sansa, but Sansa must be queen otherwise cannot knight anyone.

 

Why would he be an exception? It's not like he is some beloved figure in Wsteros. In fact, he is very much loathed. He is wanted for the Saltpans Massacre. Now, I know he didn't do that and that he might get cleared of these charges, but even without the Saltpans he is still feared and hated. Just because Sansa knows he could be good doesn't mean te rest of Westeros knows.

And what have the invasion of The Others have to do with it. It's not like titles will matter when they invade Westeros.

Quote

This gives their whole relation some chivalric romance overtones.

Their dynamic already has chivalric overtones. Just like Brienne and Cat, but Brienne isn't a knight either.

Quote

This is the only satisfying outcome if Sandor is going to become a knight (which he may not, but I think he will). It is the same with Brienne, if she receives knighthood (which I think she will), it must be from Jaime. 

Brienne actually aspires to be a knight. Sandor doesn't and I doubt he ever will to be honest. He has had the same mindset for 15-20 years and you don't just grow out of that after a few months on Zen Island. I think the point is that he will always dislike the prententiousness of Knights who don't live up to their vows, he will try to be a True Knight in his own way. He doesn't actually need to get knighted to get this emotional fullfillment of being a True Knight. I think he would be very happy if just Sansa, the person whose opinion matters to him,  knows he is.

Quote

Otherwise, what the point of investing in their respective relationships if you don't get these intense moments?

They already had a lot of intense moments. And I bet they will have more in the future.

[rotting sea cow]

3 hours ago, Firefae said:

Why would he be an exception? It's not like he is some beloved figure in Wsteros. In fact, he is very much loathed. He is wanted for the Saltpans Massacre. Now, I know he didn't do that and that he might get cleared of these charges, but even without the Saltpans he is still feared and hated. Just because Sansa knows he could be good doesn't mean te rest of Westeros knows.

It depends on what he does after leaving Quiet Island. I think he will go out to slay the Hound, who still is out there, doing Hound-things. He will certainly have bad times because of the Saltpans.

What I mean is that Sansa will make an exception by knighting him.

 

3 hours ago, Firefae said:

And what have the invasion of The Others have to do with it. It's not like titles will matter when they invade Westeros.

It will matter to him.

 

3 hours ago, Firefae said:

Their dynamic already has chivalric overtones. Just like Brienne and Cat, but Brienne isn't a knight either.

Of course, but the climax hasn't reached yet.

 

3 hours ago, Firefae said:

Brienne actually aspires to be a knight. Sandor doesn't and I doubt he ever will to be honest. He has had the same mindset for 15-20 years and you don't just grow out of that after a few months on Zen Island.

I think GRRM planned to have him there for five years. You know, that plan failed. So, certain things need to happen at faster pace.

3 hours ago, Firefae said:

I think the point is that he will always dislike the prententiousness of Knights who don't live up to their vows, he will try to be a True Knight in his own way. He doesn't actually need to get knighted to get this emotional fullfillment of being a True Knight. I think he would be very happy if just Sansa, the person whose opinion matters to him,  knows he is.

This is right, but aren't we discussing Ser Sandor Clegane? I always said if Sandor get knighted it must be by Sansa. Any other person doesn't make sense, and therefore Sansa must be Queen.

I believe that will happen, but maybe not. Only the gods (aka GRRM) know.

 

3 hours ago, Firefae said:

They already had a lot of intense moments. And I bet they will have more in the future.

climax

[Firefae]

2 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

It depends on what he does after leaving Quiet Island. I think he will go out to slay the Hound, who still is out there, doing Hound-things. He will certainly have bad times because of the Saltpans.

He could potentially get interwined with the BwB. But I don't want him to kill Lem. I don't want Sandor involved with that guy, because then he would continue this 'Hound-cycle' again. And I want that cycle to be broken.

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What I mean is that Sansa will make an exception by knighting him.

Again: Why would she? What does that matter to them?

Quote

It will matter to him.

Of course, but the climax hasn't reached yet.

I think GRRM planned to have him there for five years. You know, that plan failed. So, certain things need to happen at faster pace.

I'm sorry. But people don't make personality 180's. Even after 5 years on Zen Island, I don't see Sandor ever caring about Lords and Sers. So no, it wouldn't matter to him

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This is right, but aren't we discussing Ser Sandor Clegane? I always said if Sandor get knighted it must be by Sansa. Any other person doesn't make sense, and therefore Sansa must be Queen.

Well I agree that Sansa knighting him makes sense from a dramatic standpoint, but it doesn't make in-universe sense. Again: she's Queen in The North. And the North doesn't care about Knights. And Sansa knows that people are more than just a Ser in front of your name. 

 

[rotting sea cow]

2 minutes ago, Firefae said:

He could potentially get interwined with the BwB. But I don't want him to kill Lem. I don't want Sandor involved with that guy, because then he would continue this 'Hound-cycle' again. And I want that cycle to be broken.

Well, in my view, he needs to literally slay the Hound. I don't think is a Hound cycle if you are trying to set things rights.

2 minutes ago, Firefae said:

I'm sorry. But people don't make personality 180's. Even after 5 years on Zen Island, I don't see Sandor ever caring about Lords and Sers. So no, it wouldn't matter to him

His hatred in knights is based on his hate towards his brother. If someone teaches him that upholding the knights values makes sense, maybe he will change his mind. Sansa has done a part on this.

2 minutes ago, Firefae said:

Well I agree that Sansa knighting him makes sense from a dramatic standpoint, but it doesn't make in-universe sense. Again: she's Queen in The North. And the North doesn't care about Knights. And Sansa knows that people are more than just a Ser in front of your name. 

 

This is not about the North. It is about Sandor, it is about Sansa.

[Firefae]

1 minute ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, in my view, he needs to literally slay the Hound. I don't think is a Hound cycle if you are trying to set things rights.

But what if that helmet gets picked up by someone else again? And someone else needs to slay this new person?

It jut doesn't end.

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His hatred in knights is based on his hate towards his brother. If someone teaches him that upholding the knights values makes sense, maybe he will change his mind. Sansa has done a part on this.

Well, yes. But he has seen other Knights who don't hold up to their vows. Remember the Kingsguard.

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This is not about the North. It is about Sandor, it is about Sansa.

You can't just simply separate the personal from te political. Sansa knows that all too well.

Knighting someone is a public event. Northerners will see their Queen perform a cereomony linked to The Faith. Not good PR. 

[zandru]

Hmmm. Somehow I missed how Sansa becomes "Queen in the North"? We are still talking about the books, right? Sansa is missing; Petyr Baelish has acknowledged (one of) his bastards; the Boltons hold Winterfell and are Wardens of the North; Jeyne Poole the steward's daughter is the Lady of Winterfell aka "QotN"; the 5-King Rebellion is over and Cersei has won. Oh, and the North still holds to the Old Gods, although if Stannis prevails, there will also be some amount of fire-god worship as well.

Personally, I see Sandor Clegane (the Hound is dead) as having warm feelings toward Sansa Stark and generally wishing her well, but no particular romantic attachment. He's seen that what he interpreted as affection was just her little talking bird-type politeness. Nothing personal, Dawg. Just those fine, great-lady manners. Ditto for Sansa. She may compare every other man to Sandor, but she also thinks of him as this awful scary thing that she, and only she, was brave enough to kiss (even though she didn't and bravely hid under her blankets until he was gone.) When she learns he's gone rogue and is pillaging, killing, and committing unspeakable atrocities in the Riverlands, she'll just shrug and attribute it to the wildfire.

I fail to see how a knighted Sandor Clegane would fight any better than a non-knight, or, as noted, the walking dead would even notice. I also don't understand how, having been given refuge on an island where many of the men and boys are victims of war, including former foot soldiers and disillusioned knights, would somehow come to believe that knighthood is a wonderful, transformative thing that makes slaughter a holy act.

In short (I probably should have started here!), I don't thing Clegane will consent to be knighted, and I can't see Sansa doing it. And probably not Queen Jeyne, either, given that she's finally escaped.