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Giant Ice Spider

Ramsay as Warden of the North

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The Dynamic Duo of the North - Roose and Ramsay Bolton - do not get along.

Roose disapproves of Ramsay's lack of self-control and obsession with violence and killing, Ramsay disapproves of his father's diplomacy, and presumably of his father's remarriage. Not to mention the power struggle going on between them. Thus, they have every reason to kill each other.

While there would be consequences to Roose killing Ramsay, the more interesting case would be if Ramsay killed Roose. At that point, Ramsay would become Warden of the North. And therein lies what I wish to discuss:

How would Ramsay behave as Warden of the North, and what would do?

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The title of Warden is not automatically inherited. We know that because when Jon Arryn dies, Robert tells Eddard that he is considering to name Jaime Warden of the East.

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15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The title of Warden is not automatically inherited. We know that because when Jon Arryn dies, Robert tells Eddard that he is considering to name Jaime Warden of the East.

Why would the Lannisters name anyone else Warden of the North? Why deliberately piss off their northern allies?

Typically I use "Warden of the North" and "Lord of Winterfell" interchangeably, but since Ramsay is ALREADY Lord of Winterfell due to his marriage to 'Arya', naming the topic "Ramsay as Lord of Winterfell" wouldn't make any sense.

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The Lannisters are unlikely to care much about the North and its warden anyway, with a full-scale invasion at their hands. Cersei, with Kevan dead and Jaime completely distanced from her, will have to deal with the Tyrells, the Golden Company, Aegon VI, the Faith Militant, the Iron Bank, and soon enough with Dany. She would only care about the North if anyone up there could bring her troops. Since no one will, she'll waste no time with appointments.

As for Ramsay, his father himself acknowledges to Theon that Ramsay would not last a week as a ruler ("Does he truly think that he can ever rule the North?"). All the Northern lords are aware of what he did to Lady Hornwood, and would unite against him. He couldn't count on the Freys or the Lannisters, so basically he'd be alone versus everyone else.

 

Edited by The hairy bear

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You have to think Roose has prepared for this.He knows Ramsey is a monster and will make a try at killing him.Can't imagine some one as careful as him not having a plan for this.

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19 hours ago, M.Alhazred said:

You have to think Roose has prepared for this.He knows Ramsey is a monster and will make a try at killing him.Can't imagine some one as careful as him not having a plan for this.

"The best laid schemes of mice and men/Gang aft agley,"

Even if Roose has a plan, it may not work. The plans of characters tend not to in GRRM's stories.

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3 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

"The best laid schemes of mice and men/Gang aft agley,"

Even if Roose has a plan, it may not work. The plans of characters tend not to in GRRM's stories.

True,Giant Ice Spider.I could see Roose being beaten to the punch or Stannis taking out Ramsey.

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On 9/18/2018 at 1:22 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

The Dynamic Duo of the North - Roose and Ramsay Bolton - do not get along.

Roose disapproves of Ramsay's lack of self-control and obsession with violence and killing, Ramsay disapproves of his father's diplomacy, and presumably of his father's remarriage. Not to mention the power struggle going on between them. Thus, they have every reason to kill each other.

While there would be consequences to Roose killing Ramsay, the more interesting case would be if Ramsay killed Roose. At that point, Ramsay would become Warden of the North. And therein lies what I wish to discuss:

How would Ramsay behave as Warden of the North, and what would do?

I think Roose and Stannis somehow will kill each other, and leave Ramsay behind.  Ramsay will think he is the high lord of winterfell and the warden of the north, but all his men will desert him, and then Jon Snow will come down and kill him, wtih only to discover that Arya isn't Arya and he forswore his oaths for a lie.   But then Harry the Heir and Sansa will head north to defeat the new bastard of winterfell, but Jon will walk out and give Sansa a hug and welcome the lady of winterfall home.

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17 hours ago, argonak said:

I think Roose and Stannis somehow will kill each other, and leave Ramsay behind.  Ramsay will think he is the high lord of winterfell and the warden of the north, but all his men will desert him, and then Jon Snow will come down and kill him, wtih only to discover that Arya isn't Arya and he forswore his oaths for a lie.   But then Harry the Heir and Sansa will head north to defeat the new bastard of winterfell, but Jon will walk out and give Sansa a hug and welcome the lady of winterfall home.

An interesting idea, but things seem to go a little too perfectly. Also, what would happen to Rickon?

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Even if there wasn't the problems of Stannis Baratheon and the Others, I don't think Ramsay would last very long. Ramsay hates Roose for his strategic mind and ability to control himself, which is one of the only things keeping Roose in control as it is. 

I feel like eventually someone would just loose it and kill him in his sleep. 

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4 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

An interesting idea, but things seem to go a little too perfectly. Also, what would happen to Rickon?

GRRM will forget to write about Rickon and we'll all be left to assume he was eaten by cannibal skagosi.

 

42 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

Even if there wasn't the problems of Stannis Baratheon and the Others, I don't think Ramsay would last very long. Ramsay hates Roose for his strategic mind and ability to control himself, which is one of the only things keeping Roose in control as it is. 

I feel like eventually someone would just loose it and kill him in his sleep. 

That's what typically happens to truly unstable tyrants.  Someone eventually just murders them.  Especially when the structures of society have already been broken down, as they have in the North.

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2 hours ago, argonak said:

That's what typically happens to truly unstable tyrants.  Someone eventually just murders them.  Especially when the structures of society have already been broken down, as they have in the North.

That's basically what happened to Dalton Greyjoy. I wouldn't really call him unstable, but he seemed like a non-magic version of Euron Greyjoy. He ended up getting his throat cut in his sleep. 

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On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 4:22 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

The Dynamic Duo of the North - Roose and Ramsay Bolton - do not get along.

Roose disapproves of Ramsay's lack of self-control and obsession with violence and killing, Ramsay disapproves of his father's diplomacy, and presumably of his father's remarriage. Not to mention the power struggle going on between them. Thus, they have every reason to kill each other.

While there would be consequences to Roose killing Ramsay, the more interesting case would be if Ramsay killed Roose. At that point, Ramsay would become Warden of the North. And therein lies what I wish to discuss:

How would Ramsay behave as Warden of the North, and what would do?

I think he would make a fine Warden, but that's only because the being that is inhabiting Roose's body, which began life as the last son of the Night's King, will kill Ramsey and inhabit his body upon Roose's death. This is how he's done it for thousands of years.

When Roose dies, look for Ramsey to suddenly calm down, start speaking in whispers and leeching himself. ;)

 

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11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I think he would make a fine Warden, but that's only because the being that is inhabiting Roose's body, which began life as the last son of the Night's King, will kill Ramsey and inhabit his body upon Roose's death. This is how he's done it for thousands of years.

When Roose dies, look for Ramsey to suddenly calm down, start speaking in whispers and leeching himself. ;)

 

See, I would have thought he would try to ape Ramsay, to ensure continuity and reduce suspicion.

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On 9/19/2018 at 6:30 AM, The hairy bear said:

As for Ramsay, his father himself acknowledges to Theon that Ramsay would not last a week as a ruler ("Does he truly think that he can ever rule the North?"). All the Northern lords are aware of what he did to Lady Hornwood, and would unite against him. He couldn't count on the Freys or the Lannisters, so basically he'd be alone versus everyone else.

 

If Roose knows this, then why did he ever go along with the plan to make Ramsay the Lord of Winterfell. Is Roose just biding his time until Fat Walda gives birth to a couple kids and until Ramsay fathers his own child?!

Jeez, I think that many readers just don't understand the house of cards that Roose is building. Like the man is on very thin ice playing a dangerous game as it is.

If Ramsay takes over, the whole thing is likely to implode. There'll be absolutely no reason for Sansa and the knights of the Vale or for Davos, Rickon and the Skagosi or for Jon, Melisandre and the Free Folk to hurry.

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On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:22 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

The Dynamic Duo of the North - Roose and Ramsay Bolton - do not get along.

Roose disapproves of Ramsay's lack of self-control and obsession with violence and killing, Ramsay disapproves of his father's diplomacy, and presumably of his father's remarriage. Not to mention the power struggle going on between them. Thus, they have every reason to kill each other.

While there would be consequences to Roose killing Ramsay, the more interesting case would be if Ramsay killed Roose. At that point, Ramsay would become Warden of the North. And therein lies what I wish to discuss:

How would Ramsay behave as Warden of the North, and what would do?

If ramsay becomes WotN then is only chance is to unite people through hate and vengence.

This means that jon/rickon would need to use wildlings, iron born (those that stayed in the north) and the remaining southerns (I think they don t have their holdings in the south any longer) and form an army to retake winterfell. This way ramsay could rally the northerns that don t like this group of people enough to forget the monster he is.

 

Otherwise ramsay wouldn t last a week...

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On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 4:38 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

See, I would have thought he would try to ape Ramsay, to ensure continuity and reduce suspicion.

No, Rams will be in deep mourning over the loss of his beloved father, and then people will just think that becoming lord has changed him. They won't even notices that his eyes are slightly paler.

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On 9/29/2018 at 9:47 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

If Roose knows this, then why did he ever go along with the plan to make Ramsay the Lord of Winterfell. Is Roose just biding his time until Fat Walda gives birth to a couple kids and until Ramsay fathers his own child?!

Jeez, I think that many readers just don't understand the house of cards that Roose is building. Like the man is on very thin ice playing a dangerous game as it is.

If Ramsay takes over, the whole thing is likely to implode. There'll be absolutely no reason for Sansa and the knights of the Vale or for Davos, Rickon and the Skagosi or for Jon, Melisandre and the Free Folk to hurry.

If Ramsay continues to not learn Roose's lessons, I would expect that as soon as fake Ary pops out a grand child, Ramsay will suddenly take ill and die, leaving poor "distraught" Roose to be regent for his grand-child Lord of Winterfell.  Roose couldn't marry her himself because he's just married Walda recently and she's alive, so Ramsay was the next best thing.

 

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On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 5:22 PM, John Suburbs said:

No, Rams will be in deep mourning over the loss of his beloved father, and then people will just think that becoming lord has changed him. They won't even notices that his eyes are slightly paler.

Maybe. Perhaps people would be so relieved that he didn't live up to their expectations they wouldn't notice. But if his eyes seemed paler … no, I think they would notice that. They wouldn't put two and two together (they have no reason to suspect that it's still Roose), but they could think maybe it's Ramsay who's up to evil sorcery. That would be problematic for Lord Bolton.

All that being said, if Bolt-On is true then perhaps part of the reason Roose hates Ramsay so much is he loathes the idea of having to mimic Ramsay's bad behaviour. "No tales were ever told of me," he says in Reek III. Perhaps he's angry he can't keep it that way.

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