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Lord Varys

[SPOILERS] Family trees and successions

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The name Baratheon strikes me as being very likely to be Valyrian in origin, however it came to be applied to Orys, a name that is not far off from Aerys. It could have just as easily been spelled Barathyon or Barathion with no noticeable difference in pronunciation.

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Do we learn any other new Baratheons beside Rogar's brothers(Borys, Garon, Ronnal and Orryn) and Borros children(Cassandra, Maris, Floris, Ellyn and Olyver)? I know that Rogar's brothers were mentioned to have children but we don't learn their names.

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I don't think we had heard of Olyver before, had we? 

Edited by The hairy bear

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Just now, The hairy bear said:

I don't think we had heard of Olyver before, had we?

He was only referenced before in MUSH.

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Yes, the MUSH (updated by Ran like six years ago) included a lot of new characters we've just heard about now

When I have time, I'd like to review the changes that were made back then and see if there is any other character that is likely to be canonical.

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The Lords Oakheart and Rowan who were protecting Septon Moon. Did anyone else pause when they found out their first names? Rickard Rowan and Torgen Oakheart. And there's also Rickard Thorne. Rickard is a name that has popped up in the appendices (Rickard Wylde and Rickard Tyrell), Torgen is usually spelled with an "h". It got me wondering if maybe these Houses don't have northern blood.

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The Oakhearts and Rowans are descended of the First Men, at least.

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48 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The Lords Oakheart and Rowan who were protecting Septon Moon. Did anyone else pause when they found out their first names? Rickard Rowan and Torgen Oakheart. And there's also Rickard Thorne. Rickard is a name that has popped up in the appendices (Rickard Wylde and Rickard Tyrell), Torgen is usually spelled with an "h". It got me wondering if maybe these Houses don't have northern blood.

Rickard seems to be popular Westerosi name, similar to Jon and Robert, it's not unordinary. Torgen on the other hand is indeed a weird name.

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OK, so the Starks...

Lord Torrhen was still ruling in 2 AC, when King Aegon I commanded him to end the Sistermen's Rebellion, not sure if Fire and Blood indicates any later date than that for him.

Lord Brandon said that he saw Jaehaerys I's grandsire (Aegon I) in him, and died in 49 AC shortly after returning from the Golden Wedding, the journey supposedly asking too much of him.

Lord Walton, Lord Brandon's eldest son, ruled from 49-50 AC, when he was killed by giants while pursuing oathbreakers from the Night's Watch north of the Wall.

Lord Alaric, Lord Brandon's youngest son, ruled from 50-72 AC.

Lord Edric, Lord Brandon's grandson, succeeded him in 72 AC. Lord Alaric's two sons predeceased him, and as far as I can tell, it isn't clear which child of Lord Alaric he was descended from, whether the elder son, the younger son, or the daughter.

Lord Ellard ruled at the time of the Great Council in 101 AC. It isn't clear who he is descended from as far as I can tell.

Lord Rickard, son of Lord Benjen and elder brother of Bennard, died in 121 AC.

Lord Cregan, son of Lord Rickard, was born in 108 AC and succeeded his father in 121 AC, dates which confirm what had previously been given in the MUSH. This indicates that the birth date of 88 AC given for Lord Rickard is probably also accurate.

We might then expect Lord Benjen, Lord Cregan's grandfather, to have been born around 68 AC, about four years before Lord Alaric died and was succeeded by his grandson Lord Edric, which would put him around the age of 33 when Lord Ellard during the Great Council of 101 AC.

So what does everyone think?

Is Lord Brandon, father of Lord Walton and Lord Alaric, a son or grandson of Lord Torrhen? Or, a huuuuuge stretch, but is it at all possible that Lord Torrhen's sons and/or grandchildren all died or abandoned the North, and that Lord Brandon is actually a legitimized Brandon Snow, who might have been the "fierce youth" in Bran's visions? Brandon Snow, in the perhaps extremely unlikely event that he was still alive in 49 AC, couldn't have been much younger than his mid-60s. 

There is no real hint that Lord Alaric put up much of a protest against the New Gift, so if Yandel is correct about the letter of the brother of a Lord Stark to the Citadel about forced donations of property, might this refer to a brother of Lord Edric, who began to reign in 72 AC? Might Ellard have been the at-the-time younger brother responsible for sending this letter, only to later become lord in his own right, and eventually throw his support behind Laenor's claim in 101 AC?

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39 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

OK, so the Starks...

Lord Torrhen was still ruling in 2 AC, when King Aegon I commanded him to end the Sistermen's Rebellion, not sure if Fire and Blood indicates any later date than that for him.

Lord Brandon said that he saw Jaehaerys I's grandsire (Aegon I) in him, and died in 49 AC shortly after returning from the Golden Wedding, the journey supposedly asking too much of him.

Lord Walton, Lord Brandon's eldest son, ruled from 49-50 AC, when he was killed by giants while pursuing oathbreakers from the Night's Watch north of the Wall.

Lord Alaric, Lord Brandon's youngest son, ruled from 50-72 AC.

Lord Edric, Lord Brandon's grandson, succeeded him in 72 AC. Lord Alaric's two sons predeceased him, and as far as I can tell, it isn't clear which child of Lord Alaric he was descended from, whether the elder son, the younger son, or the daughter.

Lord Ellard ruled at the time of the Great Council in 101 AC. It isn't clear who he is descended from as far as I can tell.

Lord Rickard, son of Lord Benjen and elder brother of Bennard, died in 121 AC.

Lord Cregan, son of Lord Rickard, was born in 108 AC and succeeded his father in 121 AC, dates which confirm what had previously been given in the MUSH. This indicates that the birth date of 88 AC given for Lord Rickard is probably also accurate.

We might then expect Lord Benjen, Lord Cregan's grandfather, to have been born around 68 AC, about four years before Lord Alaric died and was succeeded by his grandson Lord Edric, which would put him around the age of 33 when Lord Ellard during the Great Council of 101 AC.

So what does everyone think?

Is Lord Brandon, father of Lord Walton and Lord Alaric, a son or grandson of Lord Torrhen? Or, a huuuuuge stretch, but is it at all possible that Lord Torrhen's sons and/or grandchildren all died or abandoned the North, and that Lord Brandon is actually a legitimized Brandon Snow, who might have been the "fierce youth" in Bran's visions? Brandon Snow, in the perhaps extremely unlikely event that he was still alive in 49 AC, couldn't have been much younger than his mid-60s. 

There is no real hint that Lord Alaric put up much of a protest against the New Gift, so if Yandel is correct about the letter of the brother of a Lord Stark to the Citadel about forced donations of property, might this refer to a brother of Lord Edric, who began to reign in 72 AC? Might Ellard have been the at-the-time younger brother responsible for sending this letter, only to later become lord in his own right, and eventually throw his support behind Laenor's claim in 101 AC?

Isn't it Lord Rickon instead Rickard?

And I am pretty sure Brandon Snow would be at least seventy at that time. He is rather dead.

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1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Isn't it Lord Rickon instead Rickard?

And I am pretty sure Brandon Snow would be at least seventy at that time. He is rather dead.

Yes, Lord Rickon.

I think that's probably the case. And it's not like Brandon is some random name among the Starks. But Lord Brandon might have been pretty old. And IMO it would be interesting.

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House Towers:

Walton Towers - won Harrenhal in a tournament but died few days later from his wounds.

Jordan Towers - son of Walton, died of congestion of the chest in 52AC. He was along with Lord Rosby(who later commited suicide), the last to see King Maegor alive.

Maegor Towers - son of Jordan, last lord of Harrenhal of house Towers, named after king Maegor. He was born around 43AC. He had older brothers, but they died fighting for Maegor. He was sickly youth and died young in 61AC. He became friend with princess Rhaena after she settled in Harrenhal.

Edited by Paxter Redwyne

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Lord Edric, Lord Brandon's grandson, succeeded him in 72 AC. Lord Alaric's two sons predeceased him, and as far as I can tell, it isn't clear which child of Lord Alaric he was descended from, whether the elder son, the younger son, or the daughter.

I think we can discard the idea that he a son of the daughter. That wouldn't be a Stark unless she married a Stark. One also assumes Alarra Stark ended up with a southron husband through Alysanne's efforts and settled somewhere outside the North.

Quote

Is Lord Brandon, father of Lord Walton and Lord Alaric, a son or grandson of Lord Torrhen?

It could be a son, but I'm not sure. If Brandon Snow were the youth from Bran's vision then this, perhaps, indicates that King Torrhen wasn't that old during the Conquest. If that were so - and considering that whatever daughter of his ended up marrying Ronnel Arryn was likely also not all that old during the Conquest - this Brandon Stark fellow could have still been in his teens during the Conquest - which would make him approaching seventy in 49 AC, which fits with him being an ailing old man.

But he could just as well be a grandson.

Quote

Or, a huuuuuge stretch, but is it at all possible that Lord Torrhen's sons and/or grandchildren all died or abandoned the North, and that Lord Brandon is actually a legitimized Brandon Snow, who might have been the "fierce youth" in Bran's visions? Brandon Snow, in the perhaps extremely unlikely event that he was still alive in 49 AC, couldn't have been much younger than his mid-60s.

That's far too out there, and would have warranted to be mentioned. And only if Brandon Snow were the youth from the vision would we have any reason to assume he was still young. If not, then Torrhen could have been, say, a middle-aged man and his half-brother, too.

Quote

There is no real hint that Lord Alaric put up much of a protest against the New Gift, so if Yandel is correct about the letter of the brother of a Lord Stark to the Citadel about forced donations of property, might this refer to a brother of Lord Edric, who began to reign in 72 AC? Might Ellard have been the at-the-time younger brother responsible for sending this letter, only to later become lord in his own right, and eventually throw his support behind Laenor's claim in 101 AC?

The whole letter thing is completely destroyed by the new setting. What can be saved is the idea that later generations of Stark regretted the New Gift, but not that the brother of a Lord Stark wrote a letter asking the Citadel for precedents to prevent the forced donations of property - because it was Lord Alaric Stark who forced whoever of his bannermen held the New Gift to give it up. It wasn't King Jaehaerys nor Queen Alysanne.

In that sense, there could be a letter where a Stark complained about the New Gift, or there could be letters of the lords who were forced to donate their lands to the Watch complaining about Lord Alaric forcing them, but as things stand a brother of Lord Stark cannot ask the Citadel for help against Lord Alaric Stark forcing his bannermen to give land to the Watch. Mostly, because Lord Alaric Stark's brother was already dead.

Even if his sons opposed the plan - Alaric sounds like a hard man who doesn't suffer opposition to his plans, and I'm sure his sons would know better than try to convince him using 'lawyer's prattle' from the Citadel.

I also don't understand why the New Gift should have caused Lord Ellard to stand with the Velaryons at the Great Council? What would have been the point of that? Where is the causal link here?

As for the family tree:

It seems to me Ellard must either be a younger brother of Edric, a cousin through the other son of Lord Alaric, or a more distant Stark relation. He cannot be Edric's son.

1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

House Towers:

Walton Towers - won Harrenhal in a tournament but died few days later from his wounds.

Jordan Towers - son of Walton, died of congestion of the chest in 52AC. He was along with Lord Rosby(who later commited suicide), the last to see King Maegor alive.

Maegor Towers - son of Jordan, last lord of Harrenhal of house Towers, named after king Maegor. He was born around 43AC. He had older brothers, but they died fighting for Maegor. He was sickly youth and died young in 61AC. He became friend with princess Rhaena after she settled in Harrenhal.

My two ideas for Alys Rivers imagine her either as Rhaena's son by Maegor (pretty far-fetched, I know) or as one of the bastard daughters of Lucamore Strong who were fostered at Harrenhal (assuming we buy Mushroom's claims about her age).

Adding the Strongs:

We have Lucamore, of course, who I think must have been a younger son of House Strong, considering he agreed to become a Kingsguard. That makes his brother, Lord Bywin, the older Strong. Bywin would have then had at least one child, Lyonel, the future Lord of Harrenhal. Simon Strong as Lyonel's uncle would have been younger brother of Lord Bywin - considering the fact he is still around in 129 AC this suggests he was somewhat younger than both Bywin and Lucamore. The fact that Lyonel actually studied at the Citadel once could indicate he wasn't the firstborn son of his father. Simon had sons and grandsons, Lyonel was married a couple of times which means his sons, Harwin and Larys, and his two nameless daughters may have all been half-siblings rather than full siblings.

Edited by Lord Varys

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40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Bywin would have then had at least two children, Lyonel, the future Lord of Harrenhal, and Simon Strong.

Simon is stated to be Lyonel's uncle, so I guess he was a brother of Bywin.

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Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

Simon is stated to be Lyonel's uncle, so I guess he was a brother of Bywin.

Right. I read that, and then I made the mistake anyway.

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Quote

because it was Lord Alaric Stark who forced whoever of his bannermen held the New Gift to give it up.x

According to Gyldayn's account of events, yes. Later Starks had reason to believe a different version of events -- or at least professed to believe a different version of events.

Edited by Ran

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2 minutes ago, Ran said:

According to Gyldayn's account of events, yes. Later Starks had reason to believe a different version of events -- or at least professed to believe a different version of events.

So you guys really want to let those two versions stand side by side? That's odd.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

So you guys really want to let those two versions stand side by side? That's odd.

Why is it odd? The whole point of these histories is that they are histories told by people based on sources. Gyldayn's version of events are not necessarily _the actual truth_.

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