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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course, Hizdahr is a complete fake. The Green Grace sets him up as Dany's consort because he is the fellow with connections to the other cities and he can sweet talk pretty well.

But he hates Daenerys and everything she did, and looks forward to day he can put her and her dragons down. What he really is, he shows in the Pit when gets off on watching Drogon die, and later when Selmy basically gets him to confess he was involved in the poisoning plot (the line about about hot spices not agreeing with him which is not true).

The slavers never wanted peace with Daenerys - they cannot, because they need the slavery. While the dragons were still a factor - which they no longer seem to be after they are chained and fled - the Meereenese are afraid of Dany. But after that, they are determined to bring her down and Hizdahr, the Green Grace, and Reznak want to make the best of it by keeping the new Meereenese monarchy because that's a better system than the ineffective oligarchical rule they had before.

And the whole point of Dany's story is to show how weak she has become, how wrong it is to compromise with people who want her gone. Dany is basically her ancestor King Aenys in Meereen. She tries to please everyone but nobody actually wants that. They want her gone, like the Faith wanted the Targaryens gone.

It is actually pathetic what Hizdahr and the Yunkai'i do to Daenerys with that mocking Dany-like Harpy on the cake - they turn her into a plaything, somebody they no longer to fear or even respect.

If Daenerys had continued on the path she was on when Drogon basically abducted her she would have met a very bad end even if nobody had poisoned her ... because in time she would also have lost the loyalty and support of the freedmen and Unsullied.

Yeah, that part of the analysis is dead wrong. Daenerys chose a side - the only side in this conflict - when she sacked Astapor. Getting second thoughts when she has made it halfway to the finish line - the abolition of slavery in all of Slaver's Bay - was a very grievous error. An error she may hopefully correct in time. Although I think her people in Slaver's Bay will do that for her, or rather people declaring for her, regardless what her opinion is on the matter.

The Volantene tiger soldiers just need her as a symbol for freedom, they do not need her or her dragons or anything tangible to just decide to revolt. And once they do, slavery in Volantis is all but over.

I don't think that Skahaz, Maraslen, Grey Worm, The Tattered Prince, Tyrion, et al will be in much of a mood to show mercy towards the Slavers in TWOW.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don't think that Skahaz, Maraslen, Grey Worm, The Tattered Prince, Tyrion, et al will be in much of a mood to show mercy towards the Slavers in TWOW.

No, they won't. And the first step will be the victory over the Yunkish allies that's about to happen. Daenerys won't play a role there, obviously, and it is not very likely she will be there a couple of days later when the Volantenes arrive ... and they would crush them all if there was no tiger soldiers revolt, so that has to happen or Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan, and Dany's other people are either all dead or enslaved.

I'd not even expect Daenerys to be in Vaes Dothrak by the time the Volantenes arrive. They were not far behind Victarion, and he was very much afraid they might beat him to Dany. He knew his only chance was to get to Daenerys and get her out of Slaver's Bay before they come, because they just don't stand a chance against their might.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, they won't. And the first step will be the victory over the Yunkish allies that's about to happen. Daenerys won't play a role there, obviously, and it is not very likely she will be there a couple of days later when the Volantenes arrive ... and they would crush them all if there was no tiger soldiers revolt, so that has to happen or Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan, and Dany's other people are either all dead or enslaved.

I'd not even expect Daenerys to be in Vaes Dothrak by the time the Volantenes arrive. They were not far behind Victarion, and he was very much afraid they might beat him to Dany. He knew his only chance was to get to Daenerys and get her out of Slaver's Bay before they come, because they just don't stand a chance against their might.

If the Slaver coalition has been crushed by the time the Volantenes arrive, then capturing Meereen would be difficult.  The defenders would have thousands of soldiers, and the Volantenes would have little local support.  Right across Slavers Bay, the surviving masters would likely be facing revolts.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If the Slaver coalition has been crushed by the time the Volantenes arrive, then capturing Meereen would be difficult.  The defenders would have thousands of soldiers, and the Volantenes would have little local support.  Right across Slavers Bay, the surviving masters would likely be facing revolts.

Oh, but the Volantenes come with - what? - 300-500 gigantic war ships? They would have the manpower and resources to take the city easily enough.

The interesting plotlines are likely going to be about what will happen behind the scenes - with the imprisoned Hizdahr, the Sons of the Harpy, the Green Grace, and so forth.

Edited by Lord Varys

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, but the Volantenes come with - what? - 300-500 gigantic war ships? They would have the manpower and resources to take the city easily enough.

The interesting plotlines are likely going to be about what will happen behind the scenes - with the imprisoned Hizdahr, the Sons of the Harpy, the Green Grace, and so forth.

I think it would be like the Athenians at Syracuse or the Turks at Malta.  Yes, there are huge numbers, but they are fighting hundreds of miles from home.  They would also be facing the Iron Fleet, and probably a lot of captured warships (I guess Qartheen rowers would willingly fight if given their freedom).

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think it would be like the Athenians at Syracuse or the Turks at Malta.  Yes, there are huge numbers, but they are fighting hundreds of miles from home.  They would also be facing the Iron Fleet, and probably a lot of captured warships (I guess Qartheen rowers would willingly fight if given their freedom).

I don't think Dany's people will be able to subdue Yunkai before the Volantenes arrive. So they will have a basis in Slaver's Bay if they needed one. And they would also be able to get supplies from New Ghis, the other cities close by and by calling on the help of the Qartheen.

One would also expect that they bring their supplies with them. Volantis' decision to go to war clearly was more than the Yunkai'i hoped for. Now that the triarchs themselves come they will also want to claim the spoils so this enterprise is profitable ... meaning the Volantenes likely do not expect to be welcomed by the Yunkish allies with open arms. If push came to shove they might also be prepared to sack Yunkai in addition to just Meereen.

Oh, and completely independent of that:

I just rewatched Kubrick's Spartacus with my girlfriend - Crassus crucifying the rebelling slaves alongside the Via Appia clearly is the inspiration for the crucified slave children ... and like with that movie this thing was dead wrong and whoever justified it or stood by while it was done is guilty of a monstrous crime.

Just for the people who still don't get that.

Also unrelated remark against genius directors and stuff - Kubrick actually wanted to cut the 'I am Spartacus' scene. Douglas had to strongarm him into keeping it. This very much shows how wrong a guy making a film can be about what would make said movie iconic...

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Dany's people will be able to subdue Yunkai before the Volantenes arrive. So they will have a basis in Slaver's Bay if they needed one. And they would also be able to get supplies from New Ghis, the other cities close by and by calling on the help of the Qartheen.

One would also expect that they bring their supplies with them. Volantis' decision to go to war clearly was more than the Yunkai'i hoped for. Now that the triarchs themselves come they will also want to claim the spoils so this enterprise is profitable ... meaning the Volantenes likely do not expect to be welcomed by the Yunkish allies with open arms. If push came to shove they might also be prepared to sack Yunkai in addition to just Meereen.

Oh, and completely independent of that:

I just rewatched Kubrick's Spartacus with my girlfriend - Crassus crucifying the rebelling slaves alongside the Via Appia clearly is the inspiration for the crucified slave children ... and like with that movie this thing was dead wrong and whoever justified it or stood by while it was done is guilty of a monstrous crime.

Just for the people who still don't get that.

Also unrelated remark against genius directors and stuff - Kubrick actually wanted to cut the 'I am Spartacus' scene. Douglas had to strongarm him into keeping it. This very much shows how wrong a guy making a film can be about what would make said movie iconic...

Yes, and if a bunch of Senators had been crucified in retaliation by rebel slaves, I don't think that history would judge the latter harshly. And no one would take seriously a history which tried to argue that elite Romans were unaware of what Crassus was doing, or objected to it, or were innocent (the Senate gave him an Ovation).

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On 3/10/2021 at 8:05 AM, Lord Varys said:

Of course, Hizdahr is a complete fake. The Green Grace sets him up as Dany's consort because he is the fellow with connections to the other cities and he can sweet talk pretty well.

But he hates Daenerys and everything she did, and looks forward to day he can put her and her dragons down. What he really is, he shows in the Pit when gets off on watching Drogon die, and later when Selmy basically gets him to confess he was involved in the poisoning plot (the line about about hot spices not agreeing with him which is not true).

The slavers never wanted peace with Daenerys - they cannot, because they need the slavery. While the dragons were still a factor - which they no longer seem to be after they are chained and fled - the Meereenese are afraid of Dany. But after that, they are determined to bring her down and Hizdahr, the Green Grace, and Reznak want to make the best of it by keeping the new Meereenese monarchy because that's a better system than the ineffective oligarchical rule they had before.

And the whole point of Dany's story is to show how weak she has become, how wrong it is to compromise with people who want her gone. Dany is basically her ancestor King Aenys in Meereen. She tries to please everyone but nobody actually wants that. They want her gone, like the Faith wanted the Targaryens gone.

It is actually pathetic what Hizdahr and the Yunkai'i do to Daenerys with that mocking Dany-like Harpy on the cake - they turn her into a plaything, somebody they no longer have to fear or even respect.

If Daenerys had continued on the path she was on when Drogon basically abducted her she would have met a very bad end even if nobody had poisoned her ... because in time she would also have lost the loyalty and support of the freedmen and Unsullied.

Yeah there was a part in A Dance with Dragons (I think it was chapter #8) where Dany starts weeping because of how unhappy she  is and how almost all of the good work she did has been erased and how she is essentially being bled dry and used up

The saddest thing about it is that she never tried to reassert control.

She would've ended up like Cersei Lannister, Robb Stark or Jon Snow had it not been for Drogon's reappearance and her own instincts to take flight.

I remember Robb Stark making more or less the same mistake by not inclining himself to Grey Wind and locking Grey Wind away at the Twins.

As far as the Volantene armada is concerned, @SeanF and @Lord Varys, I think this upcoming Battle of Meereen is going to be huge. Besides like previously stated, the Green Grace (regardless of whether the Harpy is one single person or a organization of people, I think she's the Big Bad), Hizdahr, Reznak and friends are not only inside the city but within Dany's court. It be interesting to see the likes of Tyrion, Victarion and Barristan interact with each other and protect the city while still dealing with these snakes.

The Yunkish might be easy to deal with but they are going to deal with them fast and furious because a fight against both the Yunkish and the Volantenes is going to be very difficult. And god forbid, that anyone else get involved.

But ultimately, Dany has to realize that her "no more half measures" stance against slave trade means that all forms of slavery in Essos has to be destroyed. A trip to Qarth, Pentos, Norvos and Volantis is obviously in store but Dany is also going to have to deal with YiTi and Asshai...especially since the low population numbers of Asshai means that slaves are heavily depended upon.

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6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Yeah there was a part in A Dance with Dragons (I think it was chapter #8) where Dany starts weeping because of how unhappy she  is and how almost all of the good work she did has been erased and how she is essentially being bled dry and used up

The saddest thing about it is that she never tried to reassert control.

She would've ended up like Cersei Lannister, Robb Stark or Jon Snow had it not been for Drogon's reappearance and her own instincts to take flight.

Yes, basically, she had to see one of her children - Drogon - being directly threatened by the Meereenese before she started to try to do something ... and even then she actually tried to get back to this snakepit of a city without Drogon. She had to go through her whole vision quest thing to understand that this was nonsense.

And at this point she doesn't even seem to understand to what degree she was played. She suspects that Belwas may have been poisoned and stuff, but she doesn't really think Hizdahr or others were out to get her, etc.

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I remember Robb Stark making more or less the same mistake by not inclining himself to Grey Wind and locking Grey Wind away at the Twins.

Robb has a similar point of reflection, I think, when he and Catelyn visit Oldstones. But after the Blackwater his only option to really save himself was to bend the knee. He could not really win the war, and he could not really return back home without without the Freys. He could have definitely prevented the massacre, though, if he had been more suspicious and understood how bad his position actually was.

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

As far as the Volantene armada is concerned, @SeanF and @Lord Varys, I think this upcoming Battle of Meereen is going to be huge. Besides like previously stated, the Green Grace (regardless of whether the Harpy is one single person or a organization of people, I think she's the Big Bad), Hizdahr, Reznak and friends are not only inside the city but within Dany's court. It be interesting to see the likes of Tyrion, Victarion and Barristan interact with each other and protect the city while still dealing with these snakes.

I'd expect there being only one battle since, again, if the Volantene slave soldiers are not going to refuse to fight Dany's people and/or revolt against their masters, then Dany's people will be enslaved or killed. They cannot win this battle. Not even if they had two competent dragonriders at that point. The dragons are still too small.

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The Yunkish might be easy to deal with but they are going to deal with them fast and furious because a fight against both the Yunkish and the Volantenes is going to be very difficult. And god forbid, that anyone else get involved.

Oh, the Yunkai'i are already toast. They were ill-prepared for Barristan's attack, but now they are attacked from two sides because the Ironborn joined the fray. And then two of the competent free companies allied with them are turning their cloaks, too. There are some professional soldiers among them, especially the legions from New Ghis, and they might offer serious resistance, but the rest should be dealt with pretty quickly.

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But ultimately, Dany has to realize that her "no more half measures" stance against slave trade means that all forms of slavery in Essos has to be destroyed. A trip to Qarth, Pentos, Norvos and Volantis is obviously in store but Dany is also going to have to deal with YiTi and Asshai...especially since the low population numbers of Asshai means that slaves are heavily depended upon.

I don't think anyone is ever going to go east of the Bones. Yi Ti isn't involved in any of that, and Asshai is at the end of the world and there is no indication they are crucial to the slave trade. But Qarth did declare war on Daenerys, so they will have to pay for that.

Stopping with just the three slaver cities in Slaver's Bay definitely isn't enough ... and I'd expect that Tyrion is going to push the gang to keep Dany's movement alive by continuing the anti-slavery crusade - first by sacking and destroying Yunkai, then continuing with New Ghis, Tolos, Mantarys, etc. And on the way to Westeros they will have to end slavery in all the Free Cities or else the practice would continue and the slave trade (eventually) be rebuild.

Although in Volantis they will likely not need outside interference ... the news about the rebellion of the slave soldiers in the armada might trigger an uprising of the slaves in the city. Or the news about Dany coming west might. Chances are pretty good that when we see Volantis again the Widow of the Waterfront will be one of the new ruling triarchs.

Tyrosh, Lys, and Myr might be able to keep their slaves in check considering they have a military and navy relying on citizen soldiers and sellswords/selllsails, meaning they are not as dependent on their slaves as the Volantenes are - who also have a standing army made up of slaves. The Norvoshi might be forced to change their ways, and the regime in the upper city might be cast down ... and Qohor is likely to be destroyed completely, considering their rather shady practices...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

 

Although in Volantis they will likely not need outside interference ... the news about the rebellion of the slave soldiers in the armada might trigger an uprising of the slaves in the city. Or the news about Dany coming west might. Chances are pretty good that when we see Volantis again the Widow of the Waterfront will be one of the new ruling triarchs.

Tyrosh, Lys, and Myr might be able to keep their slaves in check considering they have a military and navy relying on citizen soldiers and sellswords/selllsails, meaning they are not as dependent on their slaves as the Volantenes are - who also have a standing army made up of slaves. The Norvoshi might be forced to change their ways, and the regime in the upper city might be cast down ... and Qohor is likely to be destroyed completely, considering their rather shady practices...

In Volantis in particular, I expect the fate of the slavers to be absolutely horrific.

Volantis is the regional superpower.  If slavery falls there, and Dany's Dothraki stop raiding for slaves, then I think the practice will be eliminated across much of the East.

Edited by SeanF

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

In Volantis in particular, I expect the fate of the slavers to be absolutely horrific.

Volantis is the regional superpower.  If slavery falls there, and Dany's Dothraki stop raiding for slaves, then I think the practice will be eliminated across much of the East.

Not necessarily.

Tyrosh is known for its seafaring slaver industry. If they are willing to make the trip to Hardhome and back, they are serious business and need to be stopped.

Plus I doubt the Tyroshi or the Lyseni will let Daenerys and friends sally on past them on the way to Westeros without seizing the opportunity to take action.

As we know from both history (mainly American) and GRRM's Fevre Dream, slaves can and often are bred. While you are no longer travelling afar to kidnap and enslave people, the existing slaves you have can be forced to have children who are then born into slavery. After a generation or two of this, you will begin to sell and buy more slaves that other slavemasters have born and bred.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, basically, she had to see one of her children - Drogon - being directly threatened by the Meereenese before she started to try to do something ... and even then she actually tried to get back to this snakepit of a city without Drogon. She had to go through her whole vision quest thing to understand that this was nonsense.

And at this point she doesn't even seem to understand to what degree she was played. She suspects that Belwas may have been poisoned and stuff, but she doesn't really think Hizdahr or others were out to get her, etc.

Robb has a similar point of reflection, I think, when he and Catelyn visit Oldstones. But after the Blackwater his only option to really save himself was to bend the knee. He could not really win the war, and he could not really return back home without without the Freys. He could have definitely prevented the massacre, though, if he had been more suspicious and understood how bad his position actually was.

I'd expect there being only one battle since, again, if the Volantene slave soldiers are not going to refuse to fight Dany's people and/or revolt against their masters, then Dany's people will be enslaved or killed. They cannot win this battle. Not even if they had two competent dragonriders at that point. The dragons are still too small.

Oh, the Yunkai'i are already toast. They were ill-prepared for Barristan's attack, but now they are attacked from two sides because the Ironborn joined the fray. And then two of the competent free companies allied with them are turning their cloaks, too. There are some professional soldiers among them, especially the legions from New Ghis, and they might offer serious resistance, but the rest should be dealt with pretty quickly.

I don't think anyone is ever going to go east of the Bones. Yi Ti isn't involved in any of that, and Asshai is at the end of the world and there is no indication they are crucial to the slave trade. But Qarth did declare war on Daenerys, so they will have to pay for that.

Stopping with just the three slaver cities in Slaver's Bay definitely isn't enough ... and I'd expect that Tyrion is going to push the gang to keep Dany's movement alive by continuing the anti-slavery crusade - first by sacking and destroying Yunkai, then continuing with New Ghis, Tolos, Mantarys, etc. And on the way to Westeros they will have to end slavery in all the Free Cities or else the practice would continue and the slave trade (eventually) be rebuild.

Although in Volantis they will likely not need outside interference ... the news about the rebellion of the slave soldiers in the armada might trigger an uprising of the slaves in the city. Or the news about Dany coming west might. Chances are pretty good that when we see Volantis again the Widow of the Waterfront will be one of the new ruling triarchs.

Tyrosh, Lys, and Myr might be able to keep their slaves in check considering they have a military and navy relying on citizen soldiers and sellswords/selllsails, meaning they are not as dependent on their slaves as the Volantenes are - who also have a standing army made up of slaves. The Norvoshi might be forced to change their ways, and the regime in the upper city might be cast down ... and Qohor is likely to be destroyed completely, considering their rather shady practices...

If GRRM wants the Long Night to be a worldwide event comparable to WWII and the last Ice Age, then the people east of the Bones and in far south (particularly YiTish, the Summer Islands and the Asshai'i) have to get involved in some way.

Even if we have characters from YiTi, Asshai, the Summer Islands, Ibb or Sothryos joining or aiding Team Dany. Even if we have to learn second- and thirdhand about what's going on in the east.

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the dany slaver discussion is very interesting, but i don't have an anything to add at the moment.

hibberd book update:

CHAPTER JUSTIFYING ENDING EARLY

rot about the TV industry and how programmes end in a whimper

series in the early 2000s could just tack on ending at the last season. now have to plan seasons in advance. [if i got it right]

when is the right time to end "creatively"?

it seems they had no plan and had several endings in mind?

season 2 they told HBO 70-80 hours.

"climactic spectacle that martin [????] had envisaged for the final season"

didn't see any proper way to end on the telly so went for 70 hours + films. HBO nixed this b/c they didn't want to make paying customers go to the cinema for their conclusion.

their strategy was to make it so popular HBO would have to bankroll it.


"7 gods, 7 kingdoms, 7 seasons ... it *felt* right to have 7 seasons." [note use of "felt" as in "it didn't *feel* right to have jon kill the NK". it's a matter of whims, *feelings* rather than plot or character logic.]

many speculated that they ended in season 8 "at the height of its popularity" [NO] b/c they wanted to move on to more lucrative opportunities or were exhausted by "labour-intensive demands".

ppl who think it was rushed don't understand the "level of commitment". [oh, i think they do]

X-FILES had to many seasons and became rubbish. BREAKING BAD, which the Ds revered, had only 62 episodes.

dorne was an "experiment" [God help us.]

"the showrunners didn't want to die, or to inadvertently kill their show." [kill it deliberately instead?]

9-10 seasons would be a "serious mistke"; better to "ramp up the spectacle and finish strong".

[this is a most illuminating book. more later.]

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4 minutes ago, Count Balerion said:

the dany slaver discussion is very interesting, but i don't have an anything to add at the moment.

hibberd book update:

CHAPTER JUSTIFYING ENDING EARLY

rot about the TV industry and how programmes end in a whimper

series in the early 2000s could just tack on ending at the last season. now have to plan seasons in advance. [if i got it right]

when is the right time to end "creatively"?

it seems they had no plan and had several endings in mind?

season 2 they told HBO 70-80 hours.

"climactic spectacle that martin [????] had envisaged for the final season"

didn't see any proper way to end on the telly so went for 70 hours + films. HBO nixed this b/c they didn't want to make paying customers go to the cinema for their conclusion.

their strategy was to make it so popular HBO would have to bankroll it.


"7 gods, 7 kingdoms, 7 seasons ... it *felt* right to have 7 seasons." [note use of "felt" as in "it didn't *feel* right to have jon kill the NK". it's a matter of whims, *feelings* rather than plot or character logic.]

many speculated that they ended in season 8 "at the height of its popularity" [NO] b/c they wanted to move on to more lucrative opportunities or were exhausted by "labour-intensive demands".

ppl who think it was rushed don't understand the "level of commitment". [oh, i think they do]

X-FILES had to many seasons and became rubbish. BREAKING BAD, which the Ds revered, had only 62 episodes.

dorne was an "experiment" [God help us.]

"the showrunners didn't want to die, or to inadvertently kill their show." [kill it deliberately instead?]

9-10 seasons would be a "serious mistke"; better to "ramp up the spectacle and finish strong".

[this is a most illuminating book. more later.]

I’m sure they could have finished the tale well, in 73 Episodes.  Just think of the rubbish that could have been cut out of earlier seasons.  They were never going to cram the material of the last two seasons into 13 episodes, easily.  But even then, had they finished off Cersei at the start of Season 7, that would have left them some space.

There was potentially an interesting tale to be told of Dany and the Starks first becoming allies, then their relationship deteriorating as political differences intruded.

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Not necessarily.

Tyrosh is known for its seafaring slaver industry. If they are willing to make the trip to Hardhome and back, they are serious business and need to be stopped.

Plus I doubt the Tyroshi or the Lyseni will let Daenerys and friends sally on past them on the way to Westeros without seizing the opportunity to take action.

As we know from both history (mainly American) and GRRM's Fevre Dream, slaves can and often are bred. While you are no longer travelling afar to kidnap and enslave people, the existing slaves you have can be forced to have children who are then born into slavery. After a generation or two of this, you will begin to sell and buy more slaves that other slavemasters have born and bred.

In Lys slaves are definitely bred, and one assumes the other cities also do that to a point. So, yes, they could perpetuate slavery even if they were cut off from the eastern slave trade and were no longer able to buy slaves from the Dothraki.

I expect that Dany's main obstacle on her way west will be a coalition of Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh headed by Euron Greyjoy and also supported by pirates and sellsails.

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

If GRRM wants the Long Night to be a worldwide event comparable to WWII and the last Ice Age, then the people east of the Bones and in far south (particularly YiTish, the Summer Islands and the Asshai'i) have to get involved in some way.

Even if we have characters from YiTi, Asshai, the Summer Islands, Ibb or Sothryos joining or aiding Team Dany. Even if we have to learn second- and thirdhand about what's going on in the east.

He seems to already have abandoned such a plot line when he told us that nobody would ever go to Asshai. He made it clear that Mel might give us some memories of Asshai but he told us Daenerys would never go there.

And Yi Ti has so far only be namedropped in the books, nobody from there showed up, nobody implied anything there matters to the plot - unlike with Asshai which definitely seems to have been a place George may have, originally, wanted to explore.

I don't think the plan ever was to make the new Long Night last as long as the last ... or to explore what it does to the people in the far reaches of the earth. It will be enough to see what it does to Westeros and adjacent regions. And I expect that the Summer Islanders won't have (m)any problems with the new Long Night. Perhaps some cold weather, but little more.

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On 3/9/2021 at 8:28 PM, Count Balerion said:

"They were able to see why taking this and stretching it into another ten episodes would ruin this and make it something that's ideally powerful and affecting feel drawn out."

:lmao: I haven't finished laughing yet...

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On 3/9/2021 at 8:29 PM, Count Balerion said:

The old "we didn't want to see it end" excuse. How often they trotted that talking point out, and once again, Hibberd obliges.

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10 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

"They were able to see why taking this and stretching it into another ten episodes would ruin this and make it something that's ideally powerful and affecting feel drawn out."

:lmao: I haven't finished laughing yet...

The lack of self-awareness is Brest-taking.

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11 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

X-FILES had to many seasons and became rubbish. BREAKING BAD, which the Ds revered, had only 62 episodes.

I doubt they even watched Breaking Bad, much less revered it, since they learned diddly squat from it about how to tell a story or run a show. Yet another thing they blather about that flew over their heads.

Also the false logic about number of episodes for very different shows have zippo to do with this one.

Well, the book is providing lots of laughs, so there's that.

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11 hours ago, SeanF said:

I’m sure they could have finished the tale well, in 73 Episodes.  Just think of the rubbish that could have been cut out of earlier seasons.  They were never going to cram the material of the last two seasons into 13 episodes, easily.  But even then, had they finished off Cersei at the start of Season 7, that would have left them some space.

There was potentially an interesting tale to be told of Dany and the Starks first becoming allies, then their relationship deteriorating as political differences intruded.

Good point. There was so much trash all along, and eventually it was all trash.

Also, we're back to the show was a Ponzi scheme, and there really was nothing to end.

Don't kill Jon, that was just nothing. They knew they were out of material and the show was a scam, so just end it.

No season off for King Bran. Don't drop him then bring him back as a bot would be an improvement right there.

Start season 5 with everyone gathering in Westeros, before they destroyed all the characters completely.

Let various appropriate characters take out the key villains up front. Then Jon faces the night king in one big battle.

If they must, let Dany die helping others, or better yet... Let her fly off with Drogon when it's all over. It would be poetic.

Read the room. It was a meaningless mess, so at least let the viewers feel good after wasting time watching it.

Edited by Le Cygne

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4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I doubt they even watched Breaking Bad, much less revered it, since they learned diddly squat from it about how to tell a story or run a show. Yet another thing they blather about that flew over their heads.

Also the false logic about number of episodes for very different shows have zippo to do with this one.

Well, the book is providing lots of laughs, so there's that.

I can't think of a show less like AGOT than Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul, for that matter.

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