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15 minutes ago, Tibbie said:

Second, for whoever might have the answer: how do I reference this email of George's in calculations? Is there a copy of it posted online somewhere to link to, or if not, is okay to just reference the applicable forum comment above?

I am still not sure if you are aware that Ran is Elio García, co-author of the World of Ice and Fire.

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18 minutes ago, Tibbie said:

First, does the info you have on the tree also mention whether Brandon (Cregan's son) had his affair with Wylla before or after he married Alys Karstark?

Before.

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21 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Brandon the Boastful: When we meet him at the Golden Wedding, he says to Jaehaerys "I see his grandsire in him". Aegon's approach worked in the end, maybe this Brandon like to boast his friendship to House Targaryen.

Brandon the Boastful might have been lord when Aegon came to Winterfell in 33 AC, so he would have dealt both with Aegon I and Jaehaerys I.

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10 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I am still not sure if you are aware that Ran is Elio García, co-author of the World of Ice and Fire.

Huh. No, I didn't. (Not gonna lie, now a little embarrassed for doubting the info.)

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Brandon the Boastful might have been lord when Aegon came to Winterfell in 33 AC, so he would have dealt both with Aegon I and Jaehaerys I.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. This Brandon probably helped settle the post-Conquest tensions between the Starks and Targaryens at the end of Aegon I's reign.

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon

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18 minutes ago, Tibbie said:

Huh. No, I didn't. (Not gonna lie, now a little embarrassed for doubting the info.)

No worries! Good to be cautious when people say things that you don't know how to verify. :) 

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4 minutes ago, Tibbie said:

Huh. No, I didn't. (Not gonna lie, now a little embarrassed for doubting the info.)

It's alright, just wanted to make sure that you know there is no reason for further sources when infos come from him. ;) 

 

Something else: Apparently GRRM has a small family tree for the Umbers. Since Mors was born no later than 236 AC, I think we can place the birth of Greatjon's father around 230 and Hoarfrost's around 210 AC. Hoarfrost's father might have been Lord Harmond (born around 190 AC) and that would fit with Arrana Stark and Osric Umber being Harmond's parents. Not sure about the relation of Osric and Serena's Jon Umber, though. Jon did not have any children with Serena or after her (since he died first). Maybe he had a wife before and Osric was a grandson, or Osric was a nephew by a younger brother. But Jon could have been the lord in charge during the great mêlée in 170 AC. @Ran Are there any more hints in the notes regarding the Umbers?

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11 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Are there any more hints in the notes regarding the Umbers?

Afraid not.

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14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Afraid not.

Too sad.

Somehow I am really thrilled that GRRM created the family trees like the appendices of the books. Since you can tell that Brandon fathered Lonny before his marriage, did GRRM even present dates?

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8 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Too sad.

Somehow I am really thrilled that GRRM created the family trees like the appendices of the books. Since you can tell that Brandon fathered Lonny before his marriage, did GRRM even present dates?

No dates for marriages or births, no. George just wrote that Lonny was born first and  later Brandon married someone else.

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14 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Not sure about the relation of Osric and Serena's Jon Umber, though. Jon did not have any children with Serena or after her (since he died first). Maybe he had a wife before and Osric was a grandson, or Osric was a nephew by a younger brother. But Jon could have been the lord in charge during the great mêlée in 170 AC.

For now I'm going with Osric as being Jon's nephew, thus making the couple Arrana and Osric first cousin.

I don't know what stories GRRM has in my mind for the latter part of Cregan's rule and the troublesome rule of his sons after him, but with the information we have it sure looks fun. I'm particularly interested to see the Stark-Manderly-Umber dynamics play out.

* Lord Torrhen Manderly marrying his daughter? Jeyne to Cregan's heir, Rickon Stark. This is interesting that both Houses had a prospect of marriage with House Targaryen, but none happened in the end. Then important members of these Houses end up marrying each other. Also, Mushroom is most likely still at the Merman's Court at the moment of Rickon and Jeyne's betrothal, so I'm expecting other fun sides stories from him in the future.

* Rickon Stark dying at Sunspear in the Conquest of Dorne. As Rickon's eldest daughter, Serena Stark should have inherited Winterfell after Cregan's death but instead it passed to Jonnel Stark. So either Cregan outlived his granddaughter and her children were deemed to young to rule and Jonnel took over instead or Cregan did not want a woman to succeed him (which might explain the two weird unle-niece marriages). Either way, it sounds like a fun read. Osric Umber and Robard Cerwyn the so called "loyal lords" were most likely supporter of Serena/Serena's children's claim to Winterfell.

* Cregan and Aemon the Dragonknight dueling for some reason. Given the big difference of age (28 years), I'm guessing it happened during a joust/mêlée in the North or at King's Landing.

* Speaking of mêlée, the great mêlée at the Last Hearth of 170 AC was probably a big deal. I'm guessing either Lord Jon or Lord Osric Umber hosted it. I'm wondering if Barthogan "Blacksword" Stark didn't earn his nickname by killing people during this event, maybe he "accidentally" killed his older brother Edric and therefore set himself as Jonnel's heir.

In summary, we have not enough information to know for sure what happened during the latter half of Cregan's rule, but we have enough to make a few educated guesses.

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On 3/17/2020 at 3:56 AM, Ran said:

Harrold was a knight,

Just to clarify, definitely past tense? Or am I reading too much into that. (Thought I better check first before adding death calculation for him.)

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5 hours ago, Tibbie said:

Just to clarify, definitely past tense? Or am I reading too much into that. (Thought I better check first before adding death calculation for him.)

Making too much of it. George just said he was Ser Harrold. He did not provide any info on death dates for any of these folks.

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