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A Horse Named Stranger

U.S. Politics: Oh Donnie Boy, the Feds are calling...

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13 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Culture cannot be static.  I use “cannot” deliberately.  It is constantly in flux just like climate. It is the amalgamation of everyday human conditions and interactions between billions of individuals.  It is influenced by things borders cannot stop or control like television, radio, and internet interactions.

Merely being close to a border will influence the culture of that area.  As such attempts to stop immigration to “preserve culture” are the height of foolishness and an utter waste of time.  You might as well lead a charge to stop a tidal change or declare war on Autumn to keep Summer around.

I hope you don't believe the everchanging nature of culture makes it a good idea to put an extremist muslim and a gay man next to eachother, after all culture is malleable and there couldn't possibly be a conflict right? Because that would be the height of foolishness. (Recent events in Morocco come to mind...)

Sorry, I'm being sarcastic. The point is, nobody is saying they want to freeze culture completely, they want it to change naturally and organically, not by being thrown together with people from wildly different cultures. Why is that wrong? And why does it make someone a terrible person if they believe that?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, SweetPea said:

The economical effects of immigration isn't even the biggest reason for the alt-right's rejection of it. I suspect most would still oppose it if you have managed to convince them that it's economically beneficial. This line of argument doesn't work against them.

51 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Different cultures, different behavioral traits. What's wrong with people not wanting to import millions of immigrants who do not share their culture?

.

I know you aren't from the US and are also extremely ignorant about what things are like here, so I'd just like to take the time to let you know that immigration over the southern border has been happening for well over a century, and that in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas and beyond this natural cultural mingling has been happening the entire time.  It's nothing new or something to be concerned about, and it seems a very strange time indeed to voice such a concern as immigration from Mexico and Central  America has been declining. 

You'd also probably be interested to know that in the US (always happy to alleviate your lack of even the most basic history, just ask) pretty much everyone here is an immigrant.  The only people who should be up in arms over immigration are the Native Americans.  They're the only ones here with a valid complaint that immigrants have destroyed their culture and raped and murdered their people.  

Eta:. Hilarious that you think that a giant wall and keeping people apart is the 'natural' way for culture to mix.  ROFL lololol

Edited by larrytheimp

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33 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

I hope you don't believe the everchanging nature of culture makes it a good idea to put an extremist muslim and a gay man next to eachother, after all culture is malleable and there couldn't possibly be a conflict right? Because that would be the height of foolishness. (Recent events in Morocco come to mind...)

Sorry, I'm being sarcastic. The point is, nobody is saying they want to freeze culture completely, they want it to change naturally and organically, not by being thrown together with people from wildly different cultures. Why is that wrong? And why does it make someone a terrible person if they believe that?

Migration is part of organic cultural change.

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Hypothesis: Gun control does not work because criminals will always find a way around laws to procure guns

Hypothesis: Wall control does work because illegal immigrants will never find a way around a wall to enter the country.

You know what they say about a first rate intelligence......

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55 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Different cultures, different behavioral traits. What's wrong with people not wanting to import millions of immigrants who do not share their culture?

Well the likes of Richard Spencer have called for a white ethno state. So it would seem the claim that this is just about "preserving the culture" is rather disingenuous.

But, even if I were to take this argument at face value, which I don't, I'd just point out that US culture as it stands today is the result of many ethnic groups. So, I think there is no reason to think there will be anything odious about today's immigrants or future immigrants having any negative impact on the US. They will just do what prior immigrants have done, which is just add to the US culture, making it a more interesting place to live.

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You are giving too much weight to a single sentence, without even knowing the context. Do you seriously think you can understand someone's worldview from a couple of cherry picked sentences? You can't, you've already misunderstood him and assumed he is pro-war. That's the goal of these articles. 

I think I'm being accused here of taking Spencer out of context, when I think my real crime is taking Spencer in context.

But, I'll play along with this charade. The fact of the matter is that Spencer does seem to have a bit of high regard for fascism, having been seen on prior occasions giving Nazi salutes. I think the explanation that it is all in jest is pretty dishonest. And at Charlottesville, Spencer and his band of alt right assholes were heard chanting "Blood and Soil", which I do in fact believe had it's origins in 19th Century racist ideology in Germany, and then became popular with the Nazis themselves some decades later. And then, Spencer called Trump's election the "Victory of Will" which seems eerily similar to the infamous Nazi propaganda piece "Triump of the Will".

It would seem Spencer's prior actions and statements actually lend support to the plain meaning of his statement as quoted.

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Most of the nazi stuff is just memeing, very few people take it seriously, or share that ideology. There are shared elements like taking pride in your heritage, but that's not to say they are one and the same thing. You know what the nazis have also done? Invaded Poland and started a war that led to millions and millions of Europeans killing each o ther. Not exactly something that white nationalists are fond of.

Now what kind of asshole would think that dressing like a Nazi or giving Nazi salutes was a funny joke or memeing?

And yeah, I do think people like Spencer, a thought leader of the alt right, do have a bit of regard for Nazism, as I explained above. And I think your trying to spin it as something else is nonsense.

Quote

Well it's interesting that you declare them loathsome and detestable without apparenty even understanding them. It's not about putting them into a positive light, it's about not misrepresenting them.

I think you are the one doing the misrepresentation here.

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May be old news, but I just saw that last week Michigan Governor Snyder (about to be former) showed that he is actually less partisan than Scott Walker. Snyder vetoed 2 of the 4 "power-grab" bills (the one that would hamstring the state Attorney General and the one that would end transparency in campaign financing), the 3rd of the 4 bills never even made it out of the legislature (the one that would've taken certain authorities away from the state secretary of state). The 4th bill Snyder did sign though, which is the one that makes it extremely difficult for state agencies to implement regulations "more strict" than Federal regulations without state legislative approval. So it wasn't a clean sweep.

Interestingly, Snyder also vetoed a bill that would've extended the state's existing ban on telemedicine abortion. Not sure what to make of that; I generally assume Republicans will always approve more restrictive abortion laws. 

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59 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And yeah, I do think people like Spencer, a thought leader of the alt right, do have a bit of regard for Nazism, as I explained above. And I think your trying to spin it as something else is nonsense.

Way too kind. Spencer is a Nazi, Plain and simple. The so called Alt-Right does not like the term Nazi, as that is too toxic, and got burned, by, well, the Nazis. I think I've said around a dozen times at least, but can we stop using the term Alt-Right altogether, and can we please call Nazis, Nazis again?

I mean, you don't call snakes alternative worms, do you?

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Migration is part of organic cultural change.

Dumping millions of foreign immigrants into a country is about as much organic cultural change as genociding a million people is organic demographic change.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, SweetPea said:

Dumping millions of foreign immigrants into a country is about as much organic cultural change as genociding a million people is organic demographic change.

Yeah, we should never have dumped all this Irish, Italians, and Poles into our country, amirite?

Jesus Christ, even the words you use ("dumping!") show what racist trash ideas you have.

Edited by DanteGabriel

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8 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Way too kind. Spencer is a Nazi, Plain and simple. The so called Alt-Right does not like the term Nazi, as that is too toxic, and got burned, by, well, the Nazis. I think I've said around a dozen times at least, but can we stop using the term Alt-Right altogether, and can we please call Nazis, Nazis again?

I mean, you don't call snakes alternative worms, do you?

Spencer is a Nazi, no doubt. His use of the term 'Alt-Right' is really just a way to sanitise many of his views and make them more palatable to broader audiences. 

I don't see the term as useful at all, mainly because it seems that anyone who is on the internet and not violently left wing is often branded part of the Alt-Right, making the term mostly meaningless. 

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5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

I don't think the alt right are the princes of peace that you claim.

Hey, Spencer said he wanted a "peaceful ethnic cleansing", and what more could we possibly ask for? I mean, black people didn't remove themselves from the country after a terrorist campaign that included thousands of murders and every possible societal screw being turned on them, and millions upon millions didn't even leave the area that was harshest towards them, but surely the stuper geniuses of the alt-right have come up a way to "peacefully" move out all the non-white population and create their ideal ethnic state.

I mean, there's obviously no chance that said stuper geniuses don't have a plan, or that any percentage of people, however small, would fail to move peacefully, even though it means getting away from Spencer and his ilk. So obviously there's no chance of the foreign wars they decry being replaced with ones in the towns and neighborhoods across America. And it's certainly not like large sections of the alt-right openly advocate for just that! Just don't click on this link. Or this one. Definitely not this one. You should avoid this one too.  Don't even think of clicking on the  multiple  videos that show Proud Boys founder Gavin McInnes repeatedly calling for violence and murder, or how he claims to have been encouraged by multiple figures within the alt-right and the Fox News crowd.

I mean, all you have to do is not happen to be black, muslim, or Jewish in their presence. Or part of a multiracial coupleOr a family member who reports them when they start getting especially violent and crazy.

So really OGE, there's nothing but peaceful intentions from the alt-right, and no reason why you have to be so hard on their lickspittles... er, sympathizers... er, sea lions... er, the open minded people who just want to ask the important questions. I mean, we wouldn't want to be uncivil about the matter or anything, right?

[/sarcasm]

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1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well the likes of Richard Spencer have called for a white ethno state. So it would seem the claim that this is just about "preserving the culture" is rather disingenuous.

Demographic changes can't cause cultural changes in directions one would not prefer?

Quote

But, even if I were to take this argument at face value, which I don't, I'd just point out that US culture as it stands today is the result of many ethnic groups. So, I think there is no reason to think there will be anything odious about today's immigrants or future immigrants having any negative impact on the US. They will just do what prior immigrants have done, which is just add to the US culture, making it a more interesting place to live.

That is certainly true from your point of view. From a right wingers point of view, lots of immigrants (who tend to vote left) are not that beneficial.

Quote

I think I'm being accused here of taking Spencer out of context, when I think my real crime is taking Spencer in context.

But, I'll play along with this charade. The fact of the matter is that Spencer does seem to have a bit of high regard for fascism, having been seen on prior occasions giving Nazi salutes. I think the explanation that it is all in jest is pretty dishonest. And at Charlottesville, Spencer and his band of alt right assholes were heard chanting "Blood and Soil", which I do in fact believe had it's origins in 19th Century racist ideology in Germany, and then became popular with the Nazis themselves some decades later. And then, Spencer called Trump's election the "Victory of Will" which seems eerily similar to the infamous Nazi propaganda piece "Triump of the Will".

It would seem Spencer's prior actions and statements actually lend support to the plain meaning of his statement as quoted.

I'll be concerned when he's actually advocating for fascist ideas.  You can keep on worrying that he is a warmonger poisoning the minds of youth while he is out there talking against wars and calling for an end to them.

11 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Way too kind. Spencer is a Nazi, Plain and simple. The so called Alt-Right does not like the term Nazi, as that is too toxic, and got burned, by, well, the Nazis. I think I've said around a dozen times at least, but can we stop using the term Alt-Right altogether, and can we please call Nazis, Nazis again?

I mean, you don't call snakes alternative worms, do you?

You can do that, you'll just end up looking like a fool.

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

I know you aren't from the US and are also extremely ignorant about what things are like here, so I'd just like to take the time to let you know that immigration over the southern border has been happening for well over a century, and that in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas and beyond this natural cultural mingling has been happening the entire time.  It's nothing new or something to be concerned about, and it seems a very strange time indeed to voice such a concern as immigration from Mexico and Central  America has been declining.

The reason why such concerns are voiced today is because while immigration might be in decline, the demographic changes caused by it are only accelerating.

Quote

Eta:. Hilarious that you think that a giant wall and keeping people apart is the 'natural' way for culture to mix.  ROFL lololol

I also find it hilarious that you think illegal immigration is absolutely necessary for cultural exchange, that legal immigration cannot possibly achieve the same thing.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Demographic changes can't cause cultural changes in directions one would not prefer?

Quote

That is certainly true from your point of view. From a right wingers point of view, lots of immigrants (who tend to vote left) are not that beneficial.

Pizza, Rock Music, Blues & Jazz, Barbecue, and Christmas. Just a few very iconic American things that came from other ethnic groups or immigrants. None of them undermined the "American Way of Life". They added to it.

Quote

 From a right wingers point of view, lots of immigrants (who tend to vote left) are not that beneficial.

Well there are lot of things from a "right wingers point of view" are simply horseshit. From a right wingers point of view Trump's Corporate Tax cuts worked.

29 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

I'll be concerned when he's actually advocating for fascist ideas.  You can keep on worrying that he is a warmonger poisoning the minds of youth while he is out there talking against wars and calling for an end to them.

Okay, so Spencer isn't your grandpa's kind of Nazi. He's the peace loving and reasonable sort of Nazi. LOL.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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41 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Dumping millions of foreign immigrants into a country is about as much organic cultural change as genociding a million people is organic demographic change.

Are you really going to equate migration to the deliberate and systematic extermination of a group of people for belonging to an ethnicity or religion?

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9 hours ago, SweetPea said:

Can you share with me the secret of your mind reading abilities? 

You really don't know what you're talking about, or you're just lying. Peterson's worldview is fundamentally diffeerent from that of the alt right. He is preaching individualism, and tries to discourage everyone from collectivist thinking. How in the world do you reconcile that with white nationalism? How do you explain the endless criticism of him coming from the alt right, being called things like cuck or Juden Peterstein, and the open hostility between them, if they just love him so much? Do you have any argument at all to support your assertion?

White nationalists love that his "individualism" just so happens to be him fighting against the rights of marginalized groups. His arguments against transgender law also applies to arguments against equal opportunity laws and laws created in the civil rights era to protect marginalized persons. It doesn't matter if he "endlessly" (or twice) criticizes the alt right. Something in his "logic" has attracted them to his cause, and as an academic, he should be willing to stop and say, "Why am I attracting these people?" 

But like I said, by and large, his biggest group of supporters are young white men who feel powerless in this scary world. They believe that making your bed in the morning and standing up straight is just the thing to fix their lives. His views on gay couples raising children, on modern women's unhappiness being formed by feminism--that women are ignoring their biological needs, are the kind of conservative talking points you see on Fox News. His support of "borders" and "limited immigration" go flat in the face of individualism. He assigns collective tags to an entire group of people: Latinx. Limited immigration might impact all immigrants, but a border only impacts one specific demographic. They are a collective mass to him, they are not individuals. His logic is so faulty and broken at the core, I don't know what to tell you. He doesn't even do the reading on epistemological viewpoints he vehemently tries to attack.

He is the epitome of conservative philosophy: positions that support the further marginalization of anyone who is not a white male.

But go to his lectures, keep paying him his money, and continue to watch the world around you change in ways you aren't comfortable with (even though you made your bed everything morning and stood up straight more often). 

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7 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

White nationalists love that his "individualism" just so happens to be him fighting against the rights of marginalized groups. His arguments against transgender law also applies to arguments against equal opportunity laws and laws created in the civil rights era to protect marginalized persons. It doesn't matter if he "endlessly" (or twice) criticizes the alt right. Something in his "logic" has attracted them to his cause, and as an academic, he should be willing to stop and say, "Why am I attracting these people?" 

But like I said, by and large, his biggest group of supporters are young white men who feel powerless in this scary world. They believe that making your bed in the morning and standing up straight is just the thing to fix their lives. His views on gay couples raising children, on modern women's unhappiness being formed by feminism--that women are ignoring their biological needs, are the kind of conservative talking points you see on Fox News. His support of "borders" and "limited immigration" go flat in the face of individualism. He assigns collective tags to an entire group of people: Latinx. Limited immigration might impact all immigrants, but a border only impacts one specific demographic. They are a collective mass to him, they are not individuals. His logic is so faulty and broken at the core, I don't know what to tell you. He doesn't even do the reading on epistemological viewpoints he vehemently tries to attack.

He is the epitome of conservative philosophy: positions that support the further marginalization of anyone who is not a white male.

But go to his lectures, keep paying him his money, and continue to watch the world around you change in ways you aren't comfortable with (even though you made your bed everything morning and stood up straight more often). 

I think his popularity on the right is more to do with the way he's been able to highlight a lot of the hyperbole and hypocrisy of many far left arguments. His views do track pretty well along centre right lines, but in 2018 that would put him firmly in the Nazi camp.

(not sure why Peterson is being discussed in this thread, maybe there is a better place for it)

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13 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Yeah, I read an article, I think on the Atlantic, claiming that liberals should be afraid of this guy as he is convincing many young people of his point of view. But he is totally not an an alt-righter! He is this totally cool guy that is beyond all politics and has maximum charisma points. But the liberals all hate him be because his his an alpha male and they are all cuck betas! I personally thought I was still fighting the Trump nazis. I guess they have already realized Trump is a huge loser and have moved on.

8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

If there is anything interesting about Peterson, and I’m not sure there is that much, it’s how the media treats him. As a microcosm of click bait and ‘fake news media’ it’s quite entertaining to see

It's interesting too--Peterson really "hit" at the right time, when the alt right (which I use interchangeably with these conservatives who live and die at Trump's altar--they are mostly white men who don't believe they are racist, but instead, are horribly discriminated against) came out of the woodwork. I think this talk of Peterson as an alpha male is interesting too. He looks like Mr. Peanut when he gets on stage (he just needs a monocle and cane), he's not tough, and he gets whiny and aggressive when people review his work negatively.

The idea of the alpha male (a philosophy created between bench press reps) indicates they are precisely the evolutionary answer to saving humanity from all the beta weakness our PC culture is creating. Peterson seems to have embraced this view of strength. I'm sure he's taking MMA lessons in his spare time. But natural selection does not work the way the "Alpha Male Doctrine" thinks. Natural selection removes those groups who cannot adapt to new environments. If the new environment is a PC culture that prides itself on striving toward enlightenment, then the alpha male is doomed to go instinct.

 

58 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I'm going to once again call upon my superior Asian genetics and reason that Sweatpee's idea of "organic cultural change" means "nothing that makes white people nervous."

This seems to be it. White people (really a significant percentage of white men) seem terrified of the prospect of the world changing. For the first time in (ever?) white men are forced to consider aspects of their privilege that they've had the luxury of ignoring. 

15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Are you really going to equate migration to the deliberate and systematic extermination of a group of people for belonging to an ethnicity or religion?

You just showed me why this argument is useless. Yikes. That analogy is terrifying.

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5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think his popularity on the right is more to do with the way he's been able to highlight a lot of the hyperbole and hypocrisy of many far left arguments. His views do track pretty well along centre right lines, but in 2018 that would put him firmly in the Nazi camp.

(not sure why Peterson is being discussed in this thread, maybe there is a better place for it)

I think Peterson has potential to derail this thread too, but I also believe he is a kind of perfect example of what conservative "reasonable" politics have become in America. I don't want to derail the thread, but I do think a systematic deconstruction of the walking fallacy that is JP might help us better understand the nightmare the U.S. has become. That's just me though.  :) 

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