Heresy 216 The Return of the Crow

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

He doesn't bother to correct her... but that doesn't mean he's fine with it.   He has learned something about how Melisandre thinks, and that's enough.

Very similarly, he discovers that she has fundamentally misinterpreted Lightbringer.  We'd expect her to get this right, because she's a R'hllor zealot and AA is a hero of her own faith, but she doesn't:

Notice Aemon didn't correct Mel about this to her face.  Correcting her was not his goal; learning the truth was.

Aemon realises that Mel's "Lightbringer" is a fake, but he is OK with associating the mythical Lightbringer with TPTwP, effectively mixing him with Azor Ahai. Aemon knows that Stannis is a fake promised prince because his "Azor Ahai" sword is a fake.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

when Melisandre started speaking to Stannis of AA reborn and the stars bleeding ect., Stannis may have suggested that this meant that he was the Prince that was Promised, and Melisandre went along with it, because it proved to be the easiest way to get Stannis to take her seriously.

This seems likely to me. 

Targ family knowledge of, and interest in, the PtwP is very easy to demonstrate... whereas I can't name a Westerosi native who ever heard of Azor Ahai before Melisandre showed up and began teaching the dogma and mythology of her faith, in which AA is a major figure. 

So for Mel, I think this was a simple and effective way to get Stannis on board.

[JNR]

15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Aemon realises that Mel's "Lightbringer" is a fake, but he is OK with associating the mythical Lightbringer with TPTwP, effectively mixing him with Azor Ahai.

Well, that's the thing: how do you know? 

He certainly never says so.

If he disagreed with her, and he were going to correct her on this point, he would presumably also correct her about Lightbringer.  But he doesn't correct her about Lightbringer, so there's no easy way to guess what he would do if he disagreed with her mixing up the two figures.

What we do know for sure is that Aemon thinks this about the PtwP:

Quote

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. ...the language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

But re Azor Ahai, his behavior is quite different:

Quote

"Lord Snow," Maester Aemon called, "I left a book for you in my chambers. The Jade Compendium. It was written by the Volantene adventurer Colloquo Votar, who traveled to the east and visited all the lands of the Jade Sea. There is a passage you may find of interest. I've told Clydas to mark it for you."

Quote

"I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword."

It's curious that the learned maester has gone to this trouble for Jon, when he definitely thinks that Dany is the PtwP.

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, that's the thing: how do you know? 

He certainly never says so.

If he disagreed with her, and he were going to correct her on this point, he would presumably also correct her about Lightbringer.  But he doesn't correct her about Lightbringer, so there's no easy way to guess what he would do if he disagreed with her mixing up the two figures.

What we do know for sure is that Aemon thinks this about the PtwP:

But re Azor Ahai, his behavior is quite different:

It's curious that the learned maester has gone to this trouble for Jon, when he definitely thinks that Dany is the PtwP.

Aemon brings TPTwP after hearing about the war for the dawn and the tales about Stannis having Lightbringer. He is making that association.

Aemon only links Dany with TPTwP after hearing the tales of dragons in Braavos.

Edit: Aemon gives the book to Jon so that he can realise that Stannis is a fake:

Quote

The pages told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame

 

[Black Crow]

I think the easiest way to interpret this is that Mel has a narrative about Azor Ahai being the hero who will save the world, but Maester Aemon is warning Jon that there is also a different narrative.

The quoted passage above certainly speaks of a mighty [and ruthless] warrior, whose sword sounds a bit like Michael Moorcock's Stormbringer. The reference interestingly is to it being used in battle, but without mention of an eldritch foe, indeed it goes on to say "Once Azor Ahai fought a monster". This sounds like Azor Ahai, if he was indeed the champion of R'hllor" was fighting against other men rather than the blue-eyed lot - and in all fairness to Mel so was she.

[Tucu]

Like Aemon, Benerro quickly goes from Lightbringer being a real sword to talk about dragons. From Tyrion's chapters:

Quote

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"

Quote

"Even the vilest beggar stands higher than a slave. This dragon queen would rob him of that consolation.”

<...>

“In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world. He has been preaching that Volantis will surely burn if the triarchs take up arms against the silver queen.”

And this is Aemon in Sam's chapters:

Quote

"It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

 

[SirArthur]

19 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think the easiest way to interpret this is that Mel has a narrative about Azor Ahai being the hero who will save the world, but Maester Aemon is warning Jon that there is also a different narrative.

Mel is an unreliable source, when it comes to her own prophecy. This is both from storm of swords, one is Davos III, the other is Davos IV:

Davos III:

"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord's chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!" Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. "You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R'hllor even now . . . yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again. I shall leave you here to think on all that I have told you. And because R'hllor is the source of all good, I shall leave the torch as well."

Davos IV:

"When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see." The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon."

different quote, same chapter:

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon."

She later goes on to babble about the stone dragon, then goes back to stone dragons ...

"Give me the boy for R'hllor," the red woman said, "and the ancient prophecy shall be fulfilled. Your dragon shall awaken and spread his stony wings. The kingdom shall be yours."

...

Melisandre moved closer. "Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy."

this woman does not understand what she says or quotes. She can't decide if it's a dragon or dragons. 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

This seems likely to me. 

Targ family knowledge of, and interest in, the PtwP is very easy to demonstrate... whereas I can't name a Westerosi native who ever heard of Azor Ahai before Melisandre showed up and began teaching the dogma and mythology of her faith, in which AA is a major figure. 

So for Mel, I think this was a simple and effective way to get Stannis on board.

On a somewhat related note, I think some of the confusion that Mel is helping to generate comes from her conflating elements of R'hllorist dogma with things that she learned from the shadowbinders--the latter group being, in my interpretation, distinct from Red Priests; Quaithe, for example, seems to have greater clarity than Melisandre, and never presents herself as a believer of any particular faith.

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Aemon brings TPTwP after hearing about the war for the dawn and the tales about Stannis having Lightbringer. He is making that association.

Actually, Aemon is the one who uses the phrase "war for the dawn," not Mel.  

He has apparently already -- before Mel has a thing to say -- come to associate the PtwP with the war for the dawn (as FFR pointed out earlier).

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Aemon gives the book to Jon so that he can realise that Stannis is a fake

It's possible, but I really don't think he had any reason to think Jon was in danger of falling for Mel's routine. 

Jon is, as Aemon knows, a devotee of the old gods, who chose to swear his Watch vow before a heart tree, and who has little or no interest in the faith of R'hllor. 

So the concept of Jon suddenly being fooled into believing in that faith, or Aemon worrying about that, seems a dubious one to me.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I think the easiest way to interpret this is that Mel has a narrative about Azor Ahai being the hero who will save the world, but Maester Aemon is warning Jon that there is also a different narrative.

This is also possible, but if Aemon sincerely believed the PtwP and AA to be the same entity when he left Castle Black, and that Dany was the PtwP, then it's surprising he would have left behind the Jade Compendium, which evidently goes into detail about AA.  

I would expect his fixation on the PtwP and Dany to transfer to AA and thus create a motive for him to study AA in as much detail as possible.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I think some of the confusion that Mel is helping to generate comes from her conflating elements of R'hllorist dogma with things that she learned from the shadowbinders--the latter group being, in my interpretation, distinct from Red Priests; Quaithe, for example, seems to have greater clarity than Melisandre, and never presents herself as a believer of any particular faith.

Interesting and possible.  

Quaithe is an intriguing player for several reasons. I'm not sure I would praise her clarity, given the way she speaks in riddles, but she does evidently know things, doesn't she?   Things we don't get from Mel...

Quote

"Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Mel is an unreliable source, when it comes to her own prophecy.

Truly. I think she's so unreliable a narrator, she fools even herself.

Quote

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

I wonder whom she would see if she prayed for a glimpse of the PtwP.

[SirArthur]

1 minute ago, JNR said:

Truly. I think she's so unreliable a narrator, she fools even herself.

I don't know what's going on with her. First she wants AA to wake dragons out of stone and then she wants to wake the stone dragon herself. 

This is as absurd as it gets, should the prophecy be true.

[Tucu]

20 minutes ago, JNR said:

Actually, Aemon is the one who uses the phrase "war for the dawn," not Mel.  

He has apparently already -- before Mel has a thing to say -- come to associate the PtwP with the war for the dawn (as FFR pointed out earlier).

It's possible, but I really don't think he had any reason to think Jon was in danger of falling for Mel's routine. 

Jon is, as Aemon knows, a devotee of the old gods, who chose to swear his Watch vow before a heart tree, and who has little or no interest in the faith of R'hllor. 

So the concept of Jon suddenly being fooled into believing in that faith, or Aemon worrying about that, seems a dubious one to me.

Right, Mel gives a description and Aemon identifies it with the war for the dawn and TPTwP:

Quote

Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us."

Notice that her description is similar to Benerro talk about Dany/Azor Ahai's mission:

Quote

and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee

The myths/prophecies must be quite similar as we get equivalent descriptions and the characters can identify one with the other.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Mel is an unreliable source, when it comes to her own prophecy. This is both from storm of swords, one is Davos III, the other is Davos IV:

Davos III:

"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord's chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!" Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. "You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R'hllor even now . . . yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again. I shall leave you here to think on all that I have told you. And because R'hllor is the source of all good, I shall leave the torch as well."

Davos IV:

"When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see." The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon."

different quote, same chapter:

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon."

She later goes on to babble about the stone dragon, then goes back to stone dragons ...

"Give me the boy for R'hllor," the red woman said, "and the ancient prophecy shall be fulfilled. Your dragon shall awaken and spread his stony wings. The kingdom shall be yours."

...

Melisandre moved closer. "Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy."

this woman does not understand what she says or quotes. She can't decide if it's a dragon or dragons. 

As usual, it seems that I'm going to be the lone voice to defend my girl Melisandre.  There is no discrepancy here, Azor Ahai was prophecized to wake dragons out of stone.  But before you get multiple dragons, you start with one.  Edric Storm's sacrifice (his king's blood) will wake the first dragon.  Other sacrifices will be needed to wake more dragons.  But you have to start somewhere.

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As usual, it seems that I'm going to be the lone voice to defend my girl Melisandre.  There is no discrepancy here, Azor Ahai was prophecized to wake dragons out of stone.  But before you get multiple dragons, you start with one.  Edric Storm's sacrifice (his king's blood) will wake the first dragon.  Other sacrifices will be needed to wake more dragons.  But you have to start somewhere.

Hmm, I guess AA has to start somewhere. Can he adopt the dragons awoken by Mel ?

[Frey family reunion]

46 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Hmm, I guess AA has to start somewhere. Can he adopt the dragons awoken by Mel ?

First one goes to AA, I.e. Stannis.  Then Selyse gets toasted, and that dragon goes to Mel.  Davos would have gotten the third one if he wasn’t such a budinski. So when poor Shireen gets fried (Val approves) Patchface gets that dragon.

[SirArthur]

I mean it's the thing of AA to wake dragons out of stone. When Mel does it, it wasn't exactly AA. 

[asongofheresy]

If we are talking about waking dragons over stone than the only character to do so is Daenerys so that means she is our AA, is there a possibility she is also TPTWP? Ned talks about a blood streaked sky when it comes to Lyanna and toj, could Daenerys be the toj baby and the comet made an appearance during her birth? 

Spoiler

Btw do you think PJ's dragon gene thing is possible? I kinda like the general idea and I think individuals like Rhaena, Saera, Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, Baela, Jaehaera and Daena had the "dragon hatching gene". 

 

[Black Crow]

This I think is far more likely. All of the stuff by Mel quoted above, whether confused or not, is spoken in ignorance of the fact that Danaerys the Dragonlord has in the meantime  actually woken three dragons from stone [eggs], and Benero and the Red lot in Volantis are acclaiming her accordingly.

This suggests that Azor Ahai is not of himself/herself significant in winning the battle, but rather in his/her waking the dragons.

On the other hand that begs the question as to why how the present generation of dragons differ from those formerly ridden by the Targaryens